Arms & Equipment Guide (a rant)

[Yahzi]

The A&EG has a page that lists wheat as 1 cp per pound. Every other grain is listed in sp or gp per pound: barley, which is something you feed to horses, is 1 gp per pound.

Most grains turned into flour are double the price, but a pound of wheat flour is listed at 3 gp. OK, fine, maybe they meant to list wheat at 1.5 gp per pound, which would make sense compared to barley and millet (but since the original source book clearly defines a lb of wheat as 1 cp, somebody must have changed it back before printing). So let's give them that typo.

Except... a miller makes 2 sp a day.

So that miller apparently takes all week to make 1 lb of wheat into 1 lb of flour? (It would be interesting to see the price of bread, but they don't provide it. 10 different spices starting with the letter C, but no bread).

But more to the point, what does that miller eat?!? They have page after page of hirelings and soldiers, who can be hired for silver pieces per day. And yet every single food item is listed in gold pieces per pound.

I realize we're not aiming for strict simulation here, but seriously. Why did no one look at page 31 and page 62 and go... "hmmm." Did none of their players ever hire a footman, and then try to purchase food for him?

You can justify hirelings working for silvers. 1 lb wheat = 1 cp means a farmer makes about 60 gp a year. That works out to 1.5 sp a day for the labor of him and his whole family (before taxes, which might be as high as 50%). So fine, you can believe a soldier will work for 2-4 sp a day plus a chance at booty. Craftsmen make 100 gp a year or so; 1st rank PCs (being nobles) make 300-400 gp a year. It all works out reasonably well. At least, until these authors decided to just wing it. And yet they got paid for that book. Grrrr.


EDIT: You can hire a knight - full plate, warhorse, the whole deal - for 24 sp a day. And. He's. Level. 12! OK, so he's a Warrior, but still. 12th level!

[Vaz]

Good rant.

[lord_khaine]

They failed at balancing the basic game rules. Demaning a coherent economic system is really to much to ask..

[Tipsy_Pooka]

It looks as though they flat-out copied all the prices from an old 2E book called "Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue". This was one my absolute favorite 2E sourcebook for all things mundane. Since I don't really have an opportunity to play anymore these days, the most D&D-ing I get to do is spending an inordinate amount of time working out weird little economics/demographics thought-experiments like this.

[TotallyNotEvil]

So, is there a good economy fix around?

[Tipsy_Pooka]

So, is there a good economy fix around?

Short Answer: Not Exactly

Nearly ALL of the books I've purchased in the last few years have all been on this topic. My three personal favorites right now are:
1) A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe
or
2) Grain Into Gold

Neither is ideal... but does a much better job than Core (or A&E for that matter)

Edit: I forgot one... Gary Gygax's Living Fantasy

[TotallyNotEvil]

Short Answer: Not Exactly

Nearly ALL of the books I've purchased in the last few years have all been on this topic. My three personal favorites right now are:
1) A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe
or
2) Grain Into Gold

Neither is ideal... but does a much better job than Core (or A&E for that matter)

Edit: I forgot one... Gary Gygax's Living Fantasy

Much appreciated.

[Tipsy_Pooka]

So that miller apparently takes all week to make 1 lb of wheat into 1 lb of flour? (It would be interesting to see the price of bread, but they don't provide it. 10 different spices starting with the letter C, but no bread).

Technically, due to medieval milling techniques ~30% of the grain is lost in the milling process. So for every 3lb of grain milled you really only get 2lb of flour. Which almost justifies the 2cp cost of a pound of flour in the PHB. Bread is listed in the PHB as well (page 129) at 6cp/pound.

Edit:

Hmm? The PHB provides the cost of a loaf of bread. It's worth 2 cp, weighs 1/2 lb. So that's 4 cp per pound of bread.

Yeah, I royally screwed that up... weak defense *sigh* but I'm still new here...

[Coidzor]

Hmm? The PHB provides the cost of a loaf of bread. It's worth 2 cp, weighs 1/2 lb. Or at least it's in the SRD. So that's 4 cp per pound of bread.

Cheese is 1 sp for 1/2 pound of it, so 2 sp per pound. Meat is 3 sp per 1/2 pound of it, so 6 sp per pound.

A day's worth of prepared meals for a single (adult, Small or Medium sized) person runs either 1, 3 or 5 sp.

[Knaight]

barley, which is something you feed to horses, is 1 gp per pound.

Barley was the main food grain for people in much of Europe for centuries, with wheat being a grain for rich people. It's hardly just horse feed.

[King of Nowhere]

yes, the designers made the game so that people could have an adventuring group go around in this tolkien-esque/fairy tale-esque world having adventures, and they designed all the rules with that in mind.

Who could have assumed that people would extrapolate the logical consequences implicated in the setting instead of taking it at face value? it would be like people playing monopoly declaring that they'll sleep in the middle of the street to avoid paying the rents. they simply failed to take into account the nature of their players in the first place.

[johnbragg]

Who could have assumed that people would extrapolate the logical consequences implicated in the setting instead of taking it at face value? it would be like people playing monopoly declaring that they'll sleep in the middle of the street to avoid paying the rents. they simply failed to take into account the nature of their players in the first place.

Yeah, the designers expected players to try to find out whether the mortar in a standard dungeon wall could be removed using a rusty dagger and a flask of nearly-poisonous goblin-brew that failed a Craft check to become moonshine. They did not expect such players to try to figure out how to mine infinite gold (and therefore magic items) from gaps in the setting logic.

Looking forward, no one imagined it. Looking backwards, it seems inevitable.

The missing factor is the fading of the Gods. In Dragonlance I think it was canon that the gods would smite anyone going past level 17. AD&D and 2E veterans could not see the future, because it was behind a veil of Rocks Falling and Everyone Dying.

EDIT: Doubly ironic, as D&D has its roots in miniatures-based wargaming, a genre where resource management and exploitation is a big factor--you won't have your goblin horde for long if you haven't resourced feeding them.

[Mordaedil]

Why does this guy keep making a bunch of threads ranting about the content of 3.0 edition books?

Like, they are old as dirt, outdated and all. I mean technically so is 3.5 edition, but even more so.

[Yahzi]

So, is there a good economy fix around?

I'm working on one right now. As in my original post, it assumes 1 cp = 1 lb wheat and goes from there. Most things work out pretty well, though the price of a cow had to change.

I wanted to know if there were any canonical prices for flying mounts, which is how I wound up looking at the A&EG. As others have noted, the SRD isn't actually terrible; I've succeeded at justifying a lot of those prices.

But given how much work I am putting into my *free* price guide, I was just annoyed that someone got paid for such a sloppy job.

Thanks for the tip on milling. I'll have to figure out how to incorporate that, but it will be tough.

My research says that a decent medieval average was 8 bushels per acre, with a seed ratio of 1:4. That means a 40 acre farm nets 6,000 lbs of grain, after setting aside seed and crop rotation. Which is 60 gp a year for a peasant farmer.

I use a %50 sharecropper tax, which is admittedly high, but I want cities instead of 95% farming populations like most of history. So that leaves a peasant family living off of 30 gp/year, and a man needs at least 2 lbs / day, which comes out to 3,200 lbs grain a year for 4 people. The farm will produce vegetables and chickens and stuff that aren't taxed, but even so, it's a hard life with a lot of porridge and oat cakes.

This leaves enough food left over that 25-50% of your population can live a better lifestyle in town; say 100 gp a year. From there you get nobles living off of 1 gp a day (hello adventurers!). You can hire soldiers for silver pieces per day; you can buy longswords for gold pieces; it all works out reasonably well.

Sure for most games it doesn't matter. But what if your players want to hire an army? Or run a kingdom? What if you just want to know how many soldiers that kingdom has? Then the price of flour should make some kind of sense. Instead of, you know, being able to hire a 12th level armored knight for less than a pound of flour a day...

[Yahzi]

Why does this guy keep making a bunch of threads ranting about the content of 3.0 edition books?

Maybe because we're in the 3E forum?

[King of Nowhere]

I'm working on one right now. As in my original post, it assumes 1 cp = 1 lb wheat and goes from there. Most things work out pretty well, though the price of a cow had to change.

I wanted to know if there were any canonical prices for flying mounts, which is how I wound up looking at the A&EG. As others have noted, the SRD isn't actually terrible; I've succeeded at justifying a lot of those prices.

But given how much work I am putting into my *free* price guide, I was just annoyed that someone got paid for such a sloppy job.

Thanks for the tip on milling. I'll have to figure out how to incorporate that, but it will be tough.

My research says that a decent medieval average was 8 bushels per acre, with a seed ratio of 1:4. That means a 40 acre farm nets 6,000 lbs of grain, after setting aside seed and crop rotation. Which is 60 gp a year for a peasant farmer.

I use a %50 sharecropper tax, which is admittedly high, but I want cities instead of 95% farming populations like most of history. So that leaves a peasant family living off of 30 gp/year, and a man needs at least 2 lbs / day, which comes out to 3,200 lbs grain a year for 4 people. The farm will produce vegetables and chickens and stuff that aren't taxed, but even so, it's a hard life with a lot of porridge and oat cakes.

This leaves enough food left over that 25-50% of your population can live a better lifestyle in town; say 100 gp a year. From there you get nobles living off of 1 gp a day (hello adventurers!). You can hire soldiers for silver pieces per day; you can buy longswords for gold pieces; it all works out reasonably well.

Sure for most games it doesn't matter. But what if your players want to hire an army? Or run a kingdom? What if you just want to know how many soldiers that kingdom has? Then the price of flour should make some kind of sense. Instead of, you know, being able to hire a 12th level armored knight for less than a pound of flour a day...

keep in mind a couple factors:
1) in real life, 90% of the population worked the fields because that was required to grow enough food ffor everyone. most of what one would grow, one would eat, and only a very small amount could be spared. So 50% taxes is unreasonable; farmers would not be able to feed. on the other hand, 50% taxes on what they earn from the little they sell is reasonable
2) magic could offer many ways to increase productivity. there is a low level spell increasing field productivity by a third already. this could mean more food. or it could mean population would grow and claim poorer land until it got back to subsistance farming, only with worse land and magic to compensate for it. or it could mean freeing hands from the fields would give nations the manpower to deal with all the stuff of the various monster manuals. or to wage war among them

[Yahzi]

keep in mind a couple factors:

I justify the departure for several reasons:

1) The world is far more dangerous than Earth. Monsters are a constant threat. Thus, people cannot spread out like they did here; they need the strength of towns and armies just to survive. In RL the enemy was mostly weather; even hostile invasions just meant you paid taxes to a different person. In D&D the enemy often wants to eat you.

2) The divide between nobility and commoner is vastly greater than on Earth. In RL the nobles merely had diet, equipment, education, and organization over the common people; in my take on D&D (the World of Prime) nobles also have class levels. Therefore the people accept a more servile and miserable existence.

3) Yes, Plant Growth is a god-send, having the same effect as modern fertilizer. It transforms poor serfs into peasants, and peasants into yeomen. Pretty much every single community should have a priest with the Plant domain. But of course the D&D books are, as usual, utterly unaware that the secondary effect of a 3rd level druid spell is the difference between Dark Age misery and Renaissance luxury. Just like they are unaware of the fact that Cure Minor Wounds - an orision! - is the single greatest change to life-expectancy and population growth.

It seems like the original authors had an unwritten house rule that magic didn't work in town; it only worked in dungeons. (Actually, didn't Ars Magica make that explicit?)

[ericgrau]

With the excessive detail core goes into to have rules for every basic thing you'll never use, I'm a bit surprised. But I suppose A & EG didn't put in as much thought. Core actually says that a pound of flour is 2 cp.

You also have to keep in mind that most commoners survive via subsistance farming, meaning that they grow food for themselves and effectively get it for wholesale or less. A commoner might also trade, sell or preserve/store their extras beyond what they need to survive. But most of what he produces is not sold, nor does he buy much.

So most likely the miller eats a lot of homemade bread besides what he sells. He probably purchases other produce too. Hirelings most likely purchase basic ingredients but cook for themselves and almost never buy a single pre-made meal. The DM should probably require the players to feed a hireling kept on board 24/7, or else give him breaks to shop and cook.

We forget because today it's the reverse, but DIY used to be the default for base needs.

[Yahzi]

With the excessive detail core goes into to have rules for every basic thing you'll never use.

I agree there are too many rules. I hate sub-systems. I prefer one mechanic to rule them all, and at the game table bind them!

But just a list of what stuff costs is really handy. It doesn't even have to be particularly realistic, just consistent.

One of the fundamental problems of the D&D mileu is that 95% of the entire human population were subsistence farmers. When you think D&D, you just don't picture an endless sea of dreary, miserable villages full of dirty, hungry, illiterate peasants. It's all wizards and castles and fancy dress parties.

[Coretron03]

Actually, commoners are Literate, because the rules say that only barbarians are illiterate which is fixed by taking a level in any class, which includes commoners.

[Yahzi]

Actually, commoners are Literate, because the rules say that only barbarians are illiterate which is fixed by taking a level in any class, which includes commoners.

Ya, the default D&D setting is a 19th century English village... with mind-flayers.

[Blackhawk748]

One of the fundamental problems of the D&D mileu is that 95% of the entire human population were subsistence farmers. When you think D&D, you just don't picture an endless sea of dreary, miserable villages full of dirty, hungry, illiterate peasants. It's all wizards and castles and fancy dress parties.

Well don't yo have a bleak view of the Middle Ages. Remember, these are the people who invented fairs.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you're constantly finding that something doesn't meet your expectations, you need to manage your expectations.

Or, I guess, spend so long working on something for yourself that you feel bitter about the amount of time you've given it. C'est la vie.

[venturer]

Cityscape and DMG II, give better wages for NPC and PC for different jobs and generally help with world building

[Yahzi]

If you're constantly finding that something doesn't meet your expectations, you need to manage your expectations.

It's asking too much that a professionally published book have an editor who read page 31 and page 62?

Or, I guess, spend so long working on something for yourself that you feel bitter about the amount of time you've given it. C'est la vie.

No, I'm bitter about the fact that the people who made money off of our hobby couldn't be bothered to read what they wrote before cashing their checks.

I'm also pretty annoyed by being subject to internet psychoanalysis. Should I lower my expectations for how I should be treated? Do you find that an effective strategy for dealing with other people's inappropriate behavior?

[Psyren]

It's asking too much that a professionally published book have an editor who read page 31 and page 62?

No, I'm bitter about the fact that the people who made money off of our hobby couldn't be bothered to read what they wrote before cashing their checks.

Perhaps you didn't get your money's worth from 3.5 and PF books (because of wheat prices or whatever), but I'd wager that many of us did. So I'm quite happy with them cashing their checks and moving on to make more spells and feats instead of taking eons to perfect quasi-medieval economic theory.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm also pretty annoyed by being subject to internet psychoanalysis. Should I lower my expectations for how I should be treated? Do you find that an effective strategy for dealing with other people's inappropriate behavior?

Unfortunately, yes it is. As a perfectionist, I realized pretty early that the only way to get things done the way I want them is to do them myself. See also sturgeon's law.

[Yahzi]

Perhaps you didn't get your money's worth from 3.5 and PF books (because of wheat prices or whatever), but I'd wager that many of us did. So I'm quite happy with them cashing their checks and moving on to make more spells and feats instead of taking eons to perfect quasi-medieval economic theory.

Don't you expect consistency out of those spells and feats? I mean, if they published a 1st level spell that allowed unlimited castings of Wish, or a feat that allowed 2nd level rogues to steal the sun, wouldn't you be annoyed? Because that's what I'm asking for: that the stuff they write works with the other stuff they write in the same book.

You know: they didn't have to publish wheat prices at all. If they wanted to just make up spells and feats, they could have done that. Nothing stopping them! They could have made a book called "New Spells and Feats."

But they didn't. They made a book called "Arms and Equipment Guide." They chose to list food and hirelings, and then they did it inexcusably badly.

And here you are, telling me that because you got what you wanted, I have no right to be annoyed that I didn't get what I want; or more, that I can't even be annoyed that what I got was incoherent and useless.

I honestly find this bizarre. I pointed out a clear failure, and now I have half-a-dozen people making excuses for incoherent editing. What is this strange impulse to defend the inexcusable? It's not like I ragged on the whole system; several times I've stated that the SRD was actually workable. I've clearly put a lot of time and effort into the game; I'm giving away stuff for free solely in the hopes that other people will get enjoyment out of the game too.

But acknowledging that The Authorities screwed up in a particular book gets me comments about my personality flaws and screeds that I don't deserve competent editing for my money?

If I was interested in internet analysis, I would suggest this reflexive need to absolve the D&D authors of all possible wrongs was itself an interesting psychological phenomena.

But I'm not, so I won't. I'll finish my version in a few days and put it up on DriveThruRPG. And you can look at it if you want, and if it seems helpful, you can use it. But it doesn't have any feats or spells in it, because it's just a shopping guide, so you probably won't find it interesting.

[Psyren]

Don't you expect consistency out of those spells and feats? I mean, if they published a 1st level spell that allowed unlimited castings of Wish, or a feat that allowed 2nd level rogues to steal the sun, wouldn't you be annoyed?

Of course I would, but those hyperbolic examples don't exist, nor are they in any way comparable to messing up the price of wheat

And here you are, telling me that because you got what you wanted, I have no right to be annoyed that I didn't get what I want; or more, that I can't even be annoyed that what I got was incoherent and useless.

I can't stop you from being annoyed. I'm just suggesting you channel all this energy somewhere more productive. You can take it or leave it, either way doesn't matter to me.

But I'm not, so I won't. I'll finish my version in a few days and put it up on DriveThruRPG. And you can look at it if you want, and if it seems helpful, you can use it. But it doesn't have any feats or spells in it, because it's just a shopping guide, so you probably won't find it interesting.

We agree on that much.

[Duke of Urrel]

Hey Yahzi,

You might be interested in a thread that I opened not long ago about about a similar topic.

I hope it helps!