I think schools lose a little bit of charm...

[Lycunadari]

On the topic of blackboards vs whiteboards, though: was there any way to draw something permanently on blackboards on accident? The few times a teacher accidentally used permanent marker on a whiteboard were one of the highlights of dreary school days, but I can't remember similar shenanigans happening with blackboards.

I don't know if this worked only with the specific chalk my school used or only on some blackboards, but writing with red chalk on the blackboard when it was still wet and using a bit more pressure than usual made it basically permanent - you could wash away most of it but there would stay a slight red shadow behind. Of course, the combination of red chalk + wet blackboard + pressure was something that happened rarely on accident. But I don't think it was widely known among the kids (or teachers), so there were only a few blackboards with permanent red drawings on them.

[Vinyadan]

Pencils left permanent scratches.

[Peelee]

For the birth of our second child, my wife wanted to not get an epidural. Her actual reason for this was that when our first daughter was born the anesthesiologist messed it up and her legs were numb for a week. She ultimately got an epidural and gave birth after about half an hour of pushing.



I think the closest I have come to that was watching the live stream of data from New Horizons' Pluto Encounter arrive.

And these sorts of moments still happen in science, they just aren't as well published. For instance, in the control building for the VLA they have framed data-sets from several of the seminal moments in the array's lifetime. I think they have the first data on an antenna, first fringe, first fringe with all the antennas, and first data during an upgrade (it is a 1 dimensional picture of the moon). If they ever build the expansion/replacement, you can bet that when the thing is turned on there will be a very tense gathering of scientists, engineers, and technicians (though no cell phones, those interfere with the instrument) waiting and watching to see if the monster they have created actually moves and breathes as it is supposed to.

Well, yeah, huge things still do happen in science, it just matter on what the,people are passionate about. Me, I like space (and, more specifically, the moon)

[Donnadogsoth]

"Optional today, mandatory tomorrow" is more baseless fearmongering, at best, and ridiculous conspiracy theorizing at worst. Or maybe vice versa.

As for the media articles, yes, it's all a big conspiracy. Literally every other media outlet is conspiring together to hide the truth, and only these few brave souls are strong enough to speak out. Also, everyone involved in this massive cover-up is perfectly sworn to secrecy, and next to no leaks have been put out. In fact, it's so secure that any leaks are functionally identical to radical wing-nuts with no proof who make outlandish claims in disreputable pilublications. Damn that impossibly large, monolithic, ultra-competent secret organization that manages to get every person complicit in it to agree completely in all its decisions! Damn them I say!

Keeping the controlled media employees in line is easy. Just threaten to call them racists and fire them if they dare report on anything perceived as insensitive. It's brilliantly simple and doesn't require more than ten minutes of conspiring.

Also, if you put forth a proposition, prepare to defend it.

Lastly, your position, as best as I can figure it, is, "the old ways should be adhered to, bur only to an arbitrary point in time that i decide on." Ive asked you several times to actually say what your criteria are. You've refused every time. You can hardly blame me for misrepresenting your position when you're not even representing your position to begin with.

I'm not going to bother with your semantic approach to science.

The principle should be that of conservation of culture wherever possible, unless a good reason exists to augment it or change it that isn't based on sheer culture-wrecking. That means keeping Christmas as an official holiday, and not introducing new official holidays. It means keeping blackboards and chalk. It means the end of porn (though I'm sure sales of art history books will rise). It means not toppling statues of old heroes and founding fathers. It means continuing to teach schoolchildren about heroes such as Winston Churchill, and not erasing words like "goblin" and "elf" from children's school dictionaries. It means not taking down large wrought-iron crucifixes from the exterior of churches because they scare people. Etc., etc..

[Murk]

unless a good reason exists to augment it or change it

It means keeping blackboards and chalk.

Whiteboards are cheaper, easier to use and clean, have improved visibility and, best of all, don't kill your ears. Aren't those good reasons to change? They sure aren't based on culture wrecking.

[Xyril]

The principle should be that of conservation of culture wherever possible, unless a good reason exists to augment it or change it that isn't based on sheer culture-wrecking.

You actually set explicit criteria. That's a good improvement. Now do you have any specific reasoning to support that criteria?

I am a strong believer in preserving knowledge of culture, because once it is forgotten, it is hard to get back if future generations ever change their mind about that value of that culture. However, what you're arguing about seems to be stagnation for its own sake--that not only should culture be preserved, but that people should be pressured to resist the natural cultural evolution that sometimes occur when people are permitted to do silly things like think for themselves, or to interact with other people coming from different cultures. This sort of thinking requires some substantial justification.

It means the end of porn (though I'm sure sales of art history books will rise).

I'm sorry, but your reasoning would actually argue the opposite conclusion. Porn is part of the culture--it has been for thousands of years, as evident in the art history books you mention. Open acceptance of porn has been far less consistent in culture. However, in a modern country like the United States, based on libertarian ideals and the rule of law, I would argue that the current cultural norm--one that has stood for decades--is to at the very least condone the existence of porn, for the same reason we condone the existence of the KKK, anti-gay groups, pro-gay groups, people who mock and criticize the government, people who dress up as furry animals, and other people whose only "crime" is to say or do something that makes someone else unhappy.

Our culture is one that rejects the notion that something should be censored, even if the vast majority of people find that something to be abhorrent. Thus, if you want "the end of porn," then by your own standards, you need to make an argument that abolishing porn would make a positive contribution. More than that, however, you are stepping into the legal realm--if you want to censor porn out of existence, then you're going to have to make a very compelling argument in order to get around a little thing called the First Amendment.

[Algeh]

I think a lot of it with chalkboards, whiteboards, and smartboards, has to do with maintenance and fallback.

Chalkboards can be re-painted with chalkboard paint if they get ruined (you might need to sand them really well as part of this process). Chalk is cheap and the storage requirements are basically "don't drop it or get it wet". Students will occasionally steal chalk, but will usually leave a piece at the board even when unattended.

Whiteboards need to be replaced if ruined (I think - I don't know if there is a way to refinish them, but I've certainly never seen "whiteboard paint"). Markers dry out if left uncapped, run out of ink quickly if used on inappropriate surfaces (such as paper) and cost more than chalk. Students seem to take whiteboard markers more than chalk, but this could have more to do with the schools I was working in at the time. Unattended whiteboards in public places seem to have their pens go missing frequently unless they are tied down.

Smartboards need to be replaced if ruined, and there's only one vendor since it's a proprietary product. "Markers" don't dry out, but also would need to be bought again from that one vendor if lost or stolen (I have very rarely seen anyone steal a smartboard "marker", however). Requires a data projector (with working bulb) and computer (with certain software) to use.

If everything is well-maintained, smartboards can be really cool. If there is no budget for ongoing maintenance, I'd choose either a chalkboard or a whiteboard (depending on how long I was expecting to need to maintain it myself out of my own pocket - I'm not sure how long whiteboards last). If I was choosing something to leave in a public place unsupervised, I'd choose a chalkboard.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think schools lose a little bit of charm...

Probably they mean no... harm.

[golentan]

Probably they mean no... harm.

Certainly there's no cause for alarm.

[Peelee]

I am a strong believer in preserving knowledge of culture, because once it is forgotten, it is hard to get back if future generations ever change their mind about that value of that culture. However, what you're arguing about seems to be stagnation for its own sake--that not only should culture be preserved, but that people should be pressured to resist the natural cultural evolution that sometimes occur when people are permitted to do silly things like think for themselves, or to interact with other people coming from different cultures. This sort of thinking requires some substantial justification.



I'm sorry, but your reasoning would actually argue the opposite conclusion. Porn is part of the culture--it has been for thousands of years, as evident in the art history books you mention. Open acceptance of porn has been far less consistent in culture. However, in a modern country like the United States, based on libertarian ideals and the rule of law, I would argue that the current cultural norm--one that has stood for decades--is to at the very least condone the existence of porn, for the same reason we condone the existence of the KKK, anti-gay groups, pro-gay groups, people who mock and criticize the government, people who dress up as furry animals, and other people whose only "crime" is to say or do something that makes someone else unhappy.

Our culture is one that rejects the notion that something should be censored, even if the vast majority of people find that something to be abhorrent. Thus, if you want "the end of porn," then by your own standards, you need to make an argument that abolishing porn would make a positive contribution. More than that, however, you are stepping into the legal realm--if you want to censor porn out of existence, then you're going to have to make a very compelling argument in order to get around a little thing called the First Amendment.

After that last reply, I'm now convinced that their ideal world is very firmly rooted in a forbidden topic for this forum. I'm equally convinced that, due to this, no rational argument will change their mind. I'm out.

[Perch]

As a teacher my hands and lungs welcome the whiteboards with open arms.

[georgie_leech]

Probably they mean no... harm.

You have a great gift for rhyme.

[Donnadogsoth]

Whiteboards are cheaper, easier to use and clean, have improved visibility and, best of all, don't kill your ears. Aren't those good reasons to change? They sure aren't based on culture wrecking.

The next step will be interactive wall-mounted screens, which will be cheap, with more functions, equal visibility and lack of aural irritation. And then beyond that into glasses-mounted augmented reality. But perhaps we see a drawback: drawing everything into higher technological solutions instead of tried and true old-fashioned ways. Perhaps the tactility of chalk in the hand and learning its use on the board, the potential to be puffed in the face by an obnoxious classmate, the frustration of breaking a piece, the labour of cleaning off the board, the incomplete erasures that lead to a palimpsest of phrases, the deep field of black overwritten by white (or yellow, or...) lines, comprise a tranquility that takes us back to the 19th century. Whiteboards are not bad, but their tactility is different, their aesthetic. I don't hate them but are they lovable? Do they connect us with anything other than the late 20th century? And then the screens and AR, we are floating into hyperspace, similar to our constructions that are not made to last more than a few decades, whereas the ancients build their temples for a thousand years. I realise schools are not temples as such, but we make everything fast and slick and jump onto every new thing like it's the saviour until we realise there is nothing from the old world left. This feels somewhat like burning books and photographs--"but we still have their memories"...

[Dr.Samurai]

You have a great gift for rhyme.

Yes, yes, some of the time.

[Perch]

The next step will be interactive wall-mounted screens, which will be cheap, with more functions, equal visibility and lack of aural irritation. And then beyond that into glasses-mounted augmented reality. But perhaps we see a drawback: drawing everything into higher technological solutions instead of tried and true old-fashioned ways. Perhaps the tactility of chalk in the hand and learning its use on the board, the potential to be puffed in the face by an obnoxious classmate, the frustration of breaking a piece, the labour of cleaning off the board, the incomplete erasures that lead to a palimpsest of phrases, the deep field of black overwritten by white (or yellow, or...) lines, comprise a tranquility that takes us back to the 19th century. Whiteboards are not bad, but their tactility is different, their aesthetic. I don't hate them but are they lovable? Do they connect us with anything other than the late 20th century? And then the screens and AR, we are floating into hyperspace, similar to our constructions that are not made to last more than a few decades, whereas the ancients build their temples for a thousand years. I realise schools are not temples as such, but we make everything fast and slick and jump onto every new thing like it's the saviour until we realise there is nothing from the old world left. This feels somewhat like burning books and photographs--"but we still have their memories"...

It's easy for to say, you are not the one who has to deal with the damn thing.

Besides, really fancy expensive and technological boards will never catch on, my schools uses it and it breaks often.

That's the problem with technology, it has bugs and you can't count 100% on it, they are not as reliable, but
To replace an irrelevant and obsolete tool such as blackboard it's a welcome change.

Why use oil lamps if we have electricity?

[90,000]

This is a strangely specific and inconsequential thing to be nostalgic over.

"Remember when the Oscars were carved out of wood? Good times."

It's kinda like that.

[Donnadogsoth]

You actually set explicit criteria. That's a good improvement. Now do you have any specific reasoning to support that criteria?

I am a strong believer in preserving*knowledge*of culture, because once it is forgotten, it is hard to get back if future generations ever change their mind about that value of that culture. However, what you're arguing about seems to be stagnation for its own sake--that not only should culture be preserved, but that people should be pressured to resist the natural cultural evolution that sometimes occur when people are permitted to do silly things like think for themselves, or to interact with other people coming from different cultures. This sort of thinking requires some substantial justification.

We agree that preserving knowledge of culture is good. What I am arguing for is near*-complete preservation of the old ways, except when new universal physical, moral, and artistic principles arise to augment society. When perspective painting was invented, it was a revolution in art, and it improved art, but it did not herald the flow of everything into the sea. Other principles, like division of labour, also changed things, more disruptively. As societal changes accelerate with the increasing generation of new principles, which allow us to change our practices to become more human, more powerful, and more beautiful, the greater the need we will have to preserve those things, often little things like chalkboards, as calming artefacts that connect us with the past that we will have forgotten. Imagine if computers with virtual libraries were perfected; can we then celebrate our ingenuity by burning all the books in the actual libraries? That's what it smells like to me when I see no effort being put into maintaining the old ways, it smells like burning books. I'm not saying it's exactly equal to that, but it's leaning in that direction.

* It would be misunderstanding our civilisation to deny it all frivolous novelty.

I'm sorry, but your reasoning would actually argue the opposite conclusion. Porn is part of the culture--it has been for thousands of years, as evident in the art history books you mention. Open acceptance of porn has been far less consistent in culture. However, in a modern country like the United States, based on libertarian ideals and the rule of law, I would argue that the current cultural norm--one that has stood for decades--is to at the very least condone the existence of porn, for the same reason we condone the existence of the KKK, anti-gay groups, pro-gay groups, people who mock and criticize the government, people who dress up as furry animals, and other people whose only "crime" is to say or do something that makes someone else unhappy.

Our culture is one that rejects the notion that something should be censored, even if the vast majority of people find that something to be abhorrent. Thus, if you want "the end of porn," then by your own standards, you need to make an argument that abolishing porn would make a positive contribution. More than that, however, you are stepping into the legal realm--if you want to censor porn out of existence, then you're going to have to make a very compelling argument in order to get around a little thing called the First Amendment.

1.As per Phyllis Schlafly, porn was foisted on the public by the judiciary, it was not demanded. Porn is an invasive alien in the body of society that is growing ever larger, more refined, potent, and toxic.
2.Porn is an addictive drug and should be treated as such (i.e., part of the War on Drugs).
3.Certain types of porn are already illegal and so the precedent is there for banning all of it. If free speech applies to any porn it should apply to it all. I do not think porn is covered under the much vaunted First Amendment.
4.Porn is largely composed of images, not words. The Founders were concerned with words, not images, and certainly would have been horrified by the images now available.
5.Fine art is not intended to sexually arouse its viewers, and has no comparison to the absolute explicitness of the wall-less brothels available now. This is not to say that sexually deprived individuals have never become sexually aroused by fine art, only that that was not its intent.
6.The reason we ban porn is that, as per Noam Chomsky, “It's not what human beings are” and it creates a distorted arena for sexual relationships and contributes to sexual and relational impotence. Porn is a propagandistic drug. We need people having human relationships, not sex with computers, magazines, and robots.

[S@tanicoaldo]

1.As per Phyllis Schlafly, porn was foisted on the public by the judiciary, it was not demanded. Porn is an invasive alien in the body of society that is growing ever larger, more refined, potent, and toxic.
2.Porn is an addictive drug and should be treated as such (i.e., part of the War on Drugs).
3.Certain types of porn are already illegal and so the precedent is there for banning all of it. If free speech applies to any porn it should apply to it all. I do not think porn is covered under the much vaunted First Amendment.
4.Porn is largely composed of images, not words. The Founders were concerned with words, not images, and certainly would have been horrified by the images now available.
5.Fine art is not intended to sexually arouse its viewers, and has no comparison to the absolute explicitness of the wall-less brothels available now. This is not to say that sexually deprived individuals have never become sexually aroused by fine art, only that that was not its intent.
6.The reason we ban porn is that, as per Noam Chomsky, “It's not what human beings are” and it creates a distorted arena for sexual relationships and contributes to sexual and relational impotence. Porn is a propagandistic drug. We need people having human relationships, not sex with computers, magazines, and robots.

What are tlaking about? Porn has been around for ages.

[90,000]

1.As per Phyllis Schlafly, porn was foisted on the public by the judiciary, it was not demanded. Porn is an invasive alien in the body of society that is growing ever larger, more refined, potent, and toxic.
2.Porn is an addictive drug and should be treated as such (i.e., part of the War on Drugs).
3.Certain types of porn are already illegal and so the precedent is there for banning all of it. If free speech applies to any porn it should apply to it all. I do not think porn is covered under the much vaunted First Amendment.
4.Porn is largely composed of images, not words. The Founders were concerned with words, not images, and certainly would have been horrified by the images now available.
5.Fine art is not intended to sexually arouse its viewers, and has no comparison to the absolute explicitness of the wall-less brothels available now. This is not to say that sexually deprived individuals have never become sexually aroused by fine art, only that that was not its intent.
6.The reason we ban porn is that, as per Noam Chomsky, “It's not what human beings are” and it creates a distorted arena for sexual relationships and contributes to sexual and relational impotence. Porn is a propagandistic drug. We need people having human relationships, not sex with computers, magazines, and robots.

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Being on this board is sort of like being in the jungle.

I never know what's coming and I'm really scared.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff:This discussion is not only off-topic but inappropriate for this Forum.