The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Lans]

Probably preferable to instant death, though. Actually, I think the main problem would be that you probably only have so much deeper darkness. What if you can't get into more permanent cover in time?

You have 5 days at minimum, I don't think thats going to be an issue

Edit- I'm thinking +4, with create spawn you can basically be a mystic theurge with 3 actions.

[Flickerdart]

+3 for sure. The vampire gets a ton of abilities, but most of them are crappy. The only things that they can do, really, are a) not die, but not even a decent not-dying like a lich, and b) cheese spawn creation, but that part is entirely DM-dependent.

[Blue Jay]

Also remember that our Vampire in question HAS to be a level 5+ character. If you are clamoring for 4-5 LA how does a level 5 PC with the Vampire Template stack up to a level 8-9 PC with full class levels? How good are things like Spider Climb and delayed summon pile of dogs at level 8+?

While the Create Spawn ability talks about 5HD as the break point between Vampire and Vampire Spawn, note that that's not listed as an actual requirement for the vampire template. So, at most, it would require some re-fluffing to give it to someone with fewer HD. Not that that means anything for the power of the template, but I thought it would be useful to point out.

Fast Healing and DR are going to help off set lack of HP (See below) much of the time and do help you save on between combat healing. Which would actually be a downside if your not traveling with Dread Necros or other undead.

No Con and d12 HD. Now this is actually a double edged sword. Assuming average HD (IE 1/2) It is a straight downgrade for any d12 classes, d10 classes needed to dump con to benefit from it, d8 is only better if you have less than 16 Con. d6/d4 do usually benefit from it but they tend to be mostly casters and casters take the most penalties from having high LA though.

I feel like DR, Fast Healing, Natural Armor, the Dex and Reflex benefits and the chance for 10 temporary hit points per round more than balance out the undead hit-point problem.

Dominate and Create Spawn are where 50%+ of the template's strength is IMHO. Piles of smart minions can be really handy. Standard action SoL that creates temporary minions is nice, though I suppose you could dominate a town and then make them permanent vampire minions.

I don't know what "SoL" stands for. "Save or Lose"?

The Energy Drain is also kind of a big deal, I think. A vampire with 5 class levels in a party of 9th level is going to be a few points behind a typical fighter or barbarian on attack rolls, but being able to debuff an enemy with a successful melee attack (which also boosts your hit points) is pretty significant. And with a vampire's stealth bonuses and shapeshifting abilities, it could be a pretty effective way to negate enemy casters.

Also have to mention the whole "cannot open door that isn't to a public place without permission", the "Standard action + Religious Focus = Magic Circle vs Vampires" or the "Running Water = Magic Wall Against Vampires" or the "A Pool = Die or more Die vs Vampires".

From the perspective of a DM, this is my biggest beef with vampires (and, to a lesser extent, with all undead PC's). The mechanics of the undead type dictate that a DM is better off using special tactics against them, so the tendency for undead of all types (but especially undead PC's) is to nudge the campaign inexorably towards a theme of necromancy and undead. Vampires dial that up to 11. On the other hand, a DM who decides he really doesn't like vampire PCs can dispose of them ridiculously easy.

But, the threat of instant death from something completely stupid and random like sunlight is just lame, so if I were to DM for a vampire PC, I'd enforce it mainly through roleplay requirements, rather than actual threat of death.

I usually find it annoying when players try to cheese around their characters' weaknesses, but in the case of a vampire, it's almost mandatory. The sunlight weakness is the worst, but I'm pretty sure even the basic darkness spell/invocation overcomes the sunlight problem. It's only direct sunlight that harms a vampire, and since darkness grants concealment and prevents normal lights from illuminating the area, that ought to be sufficient evidence that any sunlight in the area of the spell is not direct. Granted, that's a DM's call, I suppose.

The Amphibious template from Stormwrack is LA +0, and it gives you a Swim speed, which, according to the "Speed" entry for the vampire template, also eliminates the vampire's water weaknesses. If we're assuming that PC's are going to optimize, I don't see how a vampire PC doesn't take that template (unless, of course, the vampire template is inflicted on them mid-campaign, before they've had a chance to get Amphibious, or they really don't want the -2 Dex penalty).

I think I'm sticking with my previous opinion of LA +4, but I think I could accept LA +3, as well.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Edit- I'm thinking +4, with create spawn you can basically be a mystic theurge with 3 actions.

What? Vampire spawn don't cast spells, you know. You get exactly what the vampire spawn entry tells you, nothing else.

[Lans]

What? Vampire spawn don't cast spells, you know. You get exactly what the vampire spawn entry tells you, nothing else.

"If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD." So I am assuming if you drain a caster of more than 5 levels they keep their spells, and you can control HDx2 then that is basically a mystic theurge as long as your la is 3 or more. Though it could drain a caster who is higher level.

[Blue Jay]

"If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD." So I am assuming if you drain a caster of more than 5 levels they keep their spells, and you can control HDx2 then that is basically a mystic theurge as long as your la is 3 or more. Though it could drain a caster who is higher level.

No, vampire spawn isn't a template that you add to an existing base creature: it's a separate monster. When the creature dies, it loses all its abilities, and a new monster rises in its place.

Of course, the Libris Mortis undead spawn classes upended that, but I doubt you'll get a DM who's willing to let your Create Spawn ability make spawn with class levels.

[Malimar]

Vampires are a big example of "LA set way too high". But it's also the canonical example of "abilities way more useful for a PC than for an NPC", i.e., it's the canonical example of a situation where the LA ought to be much higher than the CR. So that sets +3 (one higher than the CR adjustment) as an absolute minimum.


Blood drain is [raspberry noise].

Children of the Night is semi-useful, but hard to rate. Takes 2d6 rounds, so not an in-combat thing; last an hour, so a multiple-combat thing; It's the equivalent of 1d6+1 2nd-level spells (summon swarm), 1d4+1 2nd level spells (ibid), or 3d6 1st-level spells (summon nature's ally). Except it takes much longer to take effect but lasts much, much longer. Call it +0.5 for now.

Dominate is incredibly powerful, as is Create Spawn. Basically makes you a minionmancer. At least +1 on its own, maybe +2.

Energy Drain is very powerful -- two negative levels per slam! And, because Energy Drain is absurd, no save about it until the next day. You just insta-die if the vampire punches you your HD/2 times. +1 at least.

Alternate Form and Gaseous Form are good for scouting. Maybe +0.5.

DR/silver and magic is virtually never going to be overcome other than by spells (except maybe in a Githyanki-focused campaign, or if the NPCs are warned in advance that they're going to be facing a vampire). +1 here.

Fast healing is much better for a PC than for an NPC (both for out-of-combat healing reasons, and because a PC sees more rounds of combat in one day than the typical NPC sees ever, allowing the in-combat healing to stack up, too). +0.5.

Resist cold and elec 10 are not bad, though those aren't exactly common damage types. +0.5.

Spider climb is useful at low levels, not so useful at 5+CR (as several people have pointed out any vampire PC will be -- depending on how strictly the DM enforces "being turned by another vampire seems to be the only way to become a vampire").

Turn resistance +4 is [raspberry noise]. If you're fighting clerics, turn undead isn't what a vampire is concerned about.

Ability score increases are all good. Bonus feats and huge bonuses to a variety of skills are good. +1 or +2 here.

So the bonuses on their own are worth a +5 or +6 or so.


Sunlight vulnerability will be a non-issue for most well-prepared PCs. Garlic, mirrors, holy symbols, water, and closed doors are bigger problems. (If an ally enters a building, do they acquire the authority to invite the vampire in? I don't think so.) Although "Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action" -- is that a standard action every round, or a standard action once and the vampire is at bay until you stop presenting the holy symbol? Makes a big difference to the effectiveness of this tactic. Water vulnerability (requiring a series of successful Grapple checks to keep it under) isn't a great way to defeat a vampire, either.

The dealy with the wooden stake has always been a huge ????? for me. Obvious usage out of combat is obvious, but what about in combat? Is a stake a real weapon or an improvised one? Can you only use a coup de grace with the stake, or can you use it as a weapon? What kind of attack is it to hit a vampire in the heart with a stake? How do you determine whether the stake hits the heart? Do all wooden crossbow bolts become Vorpal against vampires? Does the stake need to overcome the vampire's DR to slay it? I don't know if the answers to these questions affect the vampire's LA, but they probably need to be answered before the vampire can be played.

I'mm'a say all the weaknesses together are -1 or -2.


Which adds up to somewhere between +3 and +5. I say +4 (which happens to line up with my "divide all listed LAs by 2 (unless they're already +1)" house rule).

[Blue Jay]

Turn resistance +4 is [raspberry noise]. If you're fighting clerics, turn undead isn't what a vampire is concerned about.

As a little caveat, I feel like Turn Resistance = LA is a minimal mercy that every undead PC should be granted. This is especially true for vampires, who really don't need one more "instant death" chance hanging over their heads.

[Lans]

No, vampire spawn isn't a template that you add to an existing base creature: it's a separate monster. When the creature dies, it loses all its abilities, and a new monster rises in its place.

Of course, the Libris Mortis undead spawn classes upended that, but I doubt you'll get a DM who's willing to let your Create Spawn ability make spawn with class levels.

"If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD."

[Malimar]

As a little caveat, I feel like Turn Resistance = LA is a minimal mercy that every undead PC should be granted. This is especially true for vampires, who really don't need one more "instant death" chance hanging over their heads.

That is a very good point which with I think I agree. But if a house rule were to be made, I think it should be a modification to any undead's Turn Resistance, not a modification to their LA.

[Blue Jay]

"If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD."

Yes, I know it says that; but that line is not part of the template's requirements. Here's the line that lists the requirements for the vampire template:

"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A vampire uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

It doesn't say "... any humanoid or monstrous humanoid with at least 5 HD..." So, it's perfectly legal to create a vampire with less than 5 HD. It just takes some refluffling.

[Nifft]

I'm torn between +3 or +4.

Usually I err on the side of higher, so this time I'll go for +3.

Without the weaknesses, they'd be +5 easy.

But the weaknesses are really difficult to price. Some of them depend on Handle DM (d20 + Cha + pizza bonus), like how often you ~absolutely must~ go outside during the day, rather than staying in the nice dark dungeon (where everything happened before you became a vampire).

Or how many hobgoblins suddenly take the Chef PrC and can Quickdraw their masterwork garlic bread.

Running water is another question -- are you playing in fantasy Venice? Then maybe it matters. Are you in the City of Brass? Water isn't as relevant. Are you diving for relics in a game that makes heavy use of Stormwrack? Well you're going to sit this one out.

Vampire is a template that's more campaign- and DM-dependent than usual, and that makes it difficult to evaluate.


Verdict: tentative +3.

[Amidus Drexel]

Yes, I know it says that; but that line is not part of the template's requirements. Here's the line that lists the requirements for the vampire template:

It doesn't say "... any humanoid or monstrous humanoid with at least 5 HD..." So, it's perfectly legal to create a vampire with less than 5 HD. It just takes some refluffling.

While you're right, I'm pretty sure they're arguing a different point - that is, create spawn can in fact create vampires at all (instead of only creating vampire spawn, the creature).

(Of course, it does mean that any vampires with less than 5 HD are created by something other than create spawn)

[ExLibrisMortis]

"If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD." So I am assuming if you drain a caster of more than 5 levels they keep their spells, and you can control HDx2 then that is basically a mystic theurge as long as your la is 3 or more. Though it could drain a caster who is higher level.

Ah yes, you're right, a created vampire would keep their spells, certainly (and it would have spawn of its own). That's not really like a Mystic Theurge, but it is like Undead Leadership. One more bonus feat to add to the list, so to speak.

When I read that back, it sounds a bit like I'm seriously undervaluing Create Spawn, but what I mean is: rate minionmancy abilities against minionmancy options. Don't try to rate Create Spawn against Weapon Focus, because you'll never be able to square that. Obviously, Create Spawn is insane, but if you're allowed to use it, (Undead) Leadership, Thrallherd, and animate dread warrior are all on the table, too. In that company, Create Spawn doesn't stick out too much, and it's worth about as much as that feat.

[Blue Jay]

While you're right, I'm pretty sure they're arguing a different point - that is, create spawn can in fact create vampires at all (instead of only creating vampire spawn, the creature).

Oops! Got my conversations crossed there, didn't I? Sorry, Lans.

(Of course, it does mean that any vampires with less than 5 HD are created by something other than create spawn)

...or there's some other reason for it, like a special ritual performed over a corpse mid-turning, or some divine intervention.

When I read that back, it sounds a bit like I'm seriously undervaluing Create Spawn, but what I mean is: rate minionmancy abilities against minionmancy options. Don't try to rate Create Spawn against Weapon Focus, because you'll never be able to square that. Obviously, Create Spawn is insane, but if you're allowed to use it, (Undead) Leadership, Thrallherd, and animate dread warrior are all on the table, too. In that company, Create Spawn doesn't stick out too much, and it's worth about as much as that feat.

Yeah, you've got the issue that your undead spawn don't advance, so getting two classes' worth of full casting out of this isn't likely. Plus, your spawn only come back as actual vampires if you use the Blood Drain ability, which is lame.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the "like-vs-like only" comparison. Vampire is an acquired template, so hypothetically speaking, any PC could end up with it. So, vanilla sword-and-board fighter with Cha 8 is trying to decide whether to take Great Cleave or Weapon Specialization next; then he suddenly becomes a vampire, and a whole new world of minionmancy is opened up to him.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, I know it says that; but that line is not part of the template's requirements. Here's the line that lists the requirements for the vampire template:


It doesn't say "... any humanoid or monstrous humanoid with at least 5 HD..." So, it's perfectly legal to create a vampire with less than 5 HD. It just takes some refluffling.

As far as I know, the only RAW way to mint a vampire of 4 HD or lower is if the sire is a Vampire Lord, since Vampire Lords do not create lowly spawn.

[Jormengand]

As far as I know, the only RAW way to mint a vampire of 4 HD or lower is if the sire is a Vampire Lord, since Vampire Lords do not create lowly spawn.

Of course, that carries the teensy drawback of immortal servitude to a creature which most people in the setting are almost invariably unable to deal with...

[Thurbane]

Has anyone made a 3.5 Vampire handbook?

If not, I might be interested in starting one when I get some downtime...

[Nifft]

Has anyone made a 3.5 Vampire handbook?

If not, I might be interested in starting one when I get some downtime...

At LA +8 they'd not be very competitive.

[Thurbane]

At LA +8 they'd not be very competitive.

They're pretty competitive as NPCs/encounters!

I'd probably include things like 1/2 vampire as well.

[Baby Gary]

Has anyone made a 3.5 Vampire handbook?

If not, I might be interested in starting one when I get some downtime...

that would be interesting, granted it would be more for NPCs rather than PCs due to the +8 LA

[Nifft]

They're pretty competitive as NPCs/encounters!

I'd probably include things like 1/2 vampire as well.

Ah, as a DM's resource. That sounds more interesting.

I'm going to suggest that you not use Handbook in the name, though -- "Handbook" guides have been aimed at players since, well, the Player's Handbook.

Perhaps call it the Vampire Guide (following the pattern set by the DMG).

[Thurbane]

that would be interesting, granted it would be more for NPCs rather than PCs due to the +8 LA

Ah, as a DM's resource. That sounds more interesting.

I'm going to suggest that you not use Handbook in the name, though -- "Handbook" guides have been aimed at players since, well, the Player's Handbook.

Perhaps call it the Vampire Guide (following the pattern set by the DMG).

True. All depends on my spare time, but it's something I'd be interested in...

[ExLibrisMortis]

On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the "like-vs-like only" comparison. Vampire is an acquired template, so hypothetically speaking, any PC could end up with it. So, vanilla sword-and-board fighter with Cha 8 is trying to decide whether to take Great Cleave or Weapon Specialization next; then he suddenly becomes a vampire, and a whole new world of minionmancy is opened up to him.

Well, yes, but their minionmancy would be no stronger than any other PC's. That's my point: don't compare a vampire fighter to other fighters, but compare them to other minionmancers. Vampires aren't going to be low-tier characters no matter what.

[lord_khaine]

Well, yes, but their minionmancy would be no stronger than any other PC's. That's my point: don't compare a vampire fighter to other fighters, but compare them to other minionmancers. Vampires aren't going to be low-tier characters no matter what.

But you can compare them to other fighters, because the minions comes as a racial trait, without any sort of investment besides the one in actually creating those minions.

[Blue Jay]

As far as I know, the only RAW way to mint a vampire of 4 HD or lower is if the sire is a Vampire Lord, since Vampire Lords do not create lowly spawn.

Oh cool: I didn't know about that one. I guess, to me, having a RAW-approved backstory isn't part of the template's requirements, so I feel like the player has some freedom to play around with that. Am I wrong about that?

Well, yes, but their minionmancy would be no stronger than any other PC's. That's my point: don't compare a vampire fighter to other fighters, but compare them to other minionmancers. Vampires aren't going to be low-tier characters no matter what.

Yeah, I guess that just gets back into the ambiguities of reference points, and my opinion on that is no more valid than yours. Still, if you'll humor another centaur example (I'm sorry: it's just the first thing that comes to my mind): the centaur has been given an ECL based on balance with melee archetypes, but if he acquires the vampire template, should we then start evaluating his ECL based on balance with minionmancer archetypes? I'm just not sure that that sort of archetype-specific balancing is tenable with an acquired template that could end up on anybody.

I guess you're assuming that the vampire template is being added intentionally with a specific build purpose in mind, and it makes sense to evaluate vs build archetypes in that sense.

Hm... maybe I just need to ruminate a bit to figure out the right perspective here.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm just not sure that that sort of archetype-specific balancing is tenable with an acquired template that could end up on anybody.

Aha, yes. The template can end up on anybody, so you don't know how big the upgrade is for random character X. The template, however, always does the same thing, and has the same basic power level: that of a pretty neat (but not top-tier) minionmancer.

It's a bit like Ur-Priest. You can add it to a wizard (with Mystic Theurge) and basically stay at the same power level. You can add it to a samurai, and end up five tiers higher than you started. Neither of those change the fact that Ur-Priest should be evaluated alongside other t1 classes (which makes it strong, but not overwhelmingly so), rather than against, I don't know, Reaping Mauler (which would make it insanely over-the-top powerful times one billion).

It's not about assuming it ends up on a character that planned for it, but it's about ending up in a campaign that planned for it (= assumes minionmancy is a thing you can do, whether as vampire or as non-vampire).

[Nifft]

I guess you're assuming that the vampire template is being added intentionally with a specific build purpose in mind, and it makes sense to evaluate vs build archetypes in that sense.

I would always assume that a PC is built to deliberately make good use of any particular race / class / template / magic, when I come up with a price for that race / class / template / magic.

Whether it's intentional on the part of the character or intentional on the part of the player is irrelevant, I think.

The player is always ultimately responsible for the character's composition, including getting rid of bits the player dislikes (e.g. if Lycanthropy isn't cost-effective, it's on the player to get rid of it).

[Inevitability]

Vampire Spawn

The thread's not dead! Unlike these guys.

Vampire spawn are basically weak vampires, which shouldn't be surprising. They are available slightly earlier (4 RHD), but lack some of a vampire's abilities. Amongst other things, that means no spawn-creation.

It does, however, still result in a low- to mid-level character with at-will Dominate Person, fast healing, DR, energy drain, good ability scores, and the valuable undead type. The bad RHD compensate for this, so in the end I feel like +0 LA is appropriate.

[Jormengand]

My position on spawn is similar to that on vampires: your abilities are very nice but they're not worth incurring vulnerability to houses and nice weather. The domination effect has the DC of a second-level spell and anyway you're giving up four of your levels (five if you give it that level adjustment!) which may very well be what's giving you access to actual dominate person. Losing five caster levels for those abilities isn't great, and +6/+4/-/+2/+2/+4 isn't tempting enough. Martial classes can't really benefit either, as using most of your stuff precludes use of the weapon you came here to wield and you can't afford to be losing 2 BAB, let alone 3. For a drow domain cleric, I might say it was +0, but otherwise it's a -0 from me. I'm not paying 5 levels to be murdered by a fireball with an ego or held at bay by the concept of property ownership.