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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Exclamation Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    The reasons for not assigning negative LA have been discussed in depth throughout these topics, and I can't see it changing now.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    For that matter ... since it appears to be the case that there is no additional cost involved in creating an advanced-HD version, I see no reason why anyone would ever create the baseline 15HD version, instead of a 24HD (if staying Large size is desired) or 45HD (if staying Large isn't a requirement) Shield Guardian. I mean, sure, they'd be even more woefully inadequate as PCs, but they might actually be somewhat useful to their creator.
    "A shield guardian with more than 15 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +5,000 gp to the market price, and the price increases by +20,000 gp if the creature’s size increases to Huge, modifying the cost to create accordingly."
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    "A shield guardian with more than 15 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +5,000 gp to the market price, and the price increases by +20,000 gp if the creature’s size increases to Huge, modifying the cost to create accordingly."
    The Errata strikes again.

    I really should remember to check the Errata for things like that.

    Edit: Actually, this time it was the 3.5e Update. Was looking at the 3.0e MM1 for some reason.
    Whoops.
    Last edited by javcs; 2017-08-09 at 03:24 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I've often wondered, who would actually build a shield guardian? What 15th level character would think that a CR 8 creature is a useful bodyguard?
    One that dislike the idea of being assasinated? A shield Guardian is pretty tanky, heals itself, and takes ½ of the damage you suffer. That can easily save your life in the face of an ambush with lots of sneak attacks involved.

    Edit.

    Alternatively, its a level 15 character who is being paid 120k gold for one, because another person with more gold than class levels want one.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2017-08-09 at 04:10 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    One that dislike the idea of being assasinated? A shield Guardian is pretty tanky, heals itself, and takes ½ of the damage you suffer. That can easily save your life in the face of an ambush with lots of sneak attacks involved.

    Edit.

    Alternatively, its a level 15 character who is being paid 120k gold for one, because another person with more gold than class levels want one.
    Plus, y'know, while WE are used to level-appropriate encounters (in the range, anyway), not everybody a character in-world comes across is going to be level-appropriate, nor is it easy to tell who is what level. Far more likely that the average person who attacks them will be some 3rd level humanoid, who will easily be taken out by the SG without the master even needing to lift a finger.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Shield Guardian
    What in the world...? I can literally not remember ever having seen this monster before. And if you'd told me it existed, I would have assumed it was from Monster Manual 2 or Fiend Folio or something. I can remember that rasts and ravids and achaierais and suchlike exist, but the shield guardian is a complete blind spot.
    Last edited by Malimar; 2017-08-09 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    The reasons for not assigning negative LA have been discussed in depth throughout these topics, and I can't see it changing now.
    Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?


    There are over 200 creatures that have been assigned -0, I find that pretty problematic. If it was just a couple it wouldn't be that big of deal, but as it stands its like half the monster manual
    Last edited by Lans; 2017-08-09 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?


    There are over 200 creatures that have been assigned -0, I find that pretty problematic. If it was just a couple it wouldn't be that big of deal, but as it stands its like half the monster manual
    That's because half the monster manual is composed of HD-inflated brawlers.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    The reasons for not assigning negative LA have been discussed in depth throughout these topics, and I can't see it changing now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?

    There are over 200 creatures that have been assigned -0, I find that pretty problematic. If it was just a couple it wouldn't be that big of deal, but as it stands its like half the monster manual
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was explained in detail in both the first and second thread. Without going into yet another in-depth explanation, negative LA can really break things. Not necessarily WILL, but can. As has already been mentioned, that case is outside the scope of this project. If you feel that there are many -0 monsters, it is probably because monsters as PCs are generally underwhelming. It isn't a fault of the LA re-assignment system that Inevitability (and the gitp community) is taking on, but rather a fault of the D&D system really not being set up to accommodate random monsters as player characters. I don't even mean the original " - " LA monsters, either. In most cases, if you simply flip to a random page in the MM and say "That is what I will use as my character" and subsequently stick with whatever LA (if it had one) it had for your PC, you will be far less useful than a "normal" character of the same ECL.

    As for the Shield Guardian, I agree it is -0. Although thinking about it from a RP perspective, I think it would be a funny thing to have in the party. Moreso from a sitcom's take on a D&D session than actually playing, though.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?
    Most recently on the last page of the last thread. Inevitability's input on this is the last post of the previous thread before linking to this one. I understand not wanting to delve into hundreds of posts to find information but this isn't exactly buried so deep you'd need Indiana Jones to unearth.

    Regardless of thread size, really easy to find by the "search thread" function.

    edit: Also, looks like you were in that discussion, Lans.

    edit2: Another vote for -0 on the Shield Guardian.

    edit the third: In retrospect, the tone of my post was a bit standoffish, which was not my intent. My apologies if that's how it came across.
    Last edited by cigaw; 2017-08-09 at 06:30 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by cigaw View Post
    Most recently on the last page of the last thread. Inevitability's input on this is the last post of the previous thread before linking to this one. I understand not wanting to delve into hundreds of posts to find information but this isn't exactly buried so deep you'd need Indiana Jones to unearth.

    Regardless of thread size, really easy to find by the "search thread" function.

    edit: Also, looks like you were in that discussion, Lans.
    s.
    Well, I was expecting a bit more detail with the phrasing discused in depth

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Negative LA is still not actually a thing that exists. If you want to develop a definition for Negative LA and assign values to LA -0 creatures using that definition, you can freely do so in a new thread. But this thread is not the one to define and apply Negative LA.


    The Incarnate Construct template says LA -2 (minimum 0); that's a reduction of the base creature's LA by 2, to a minimum LA of 0. You might be able to talk a DM into letting the -2 apply to any templates applied after the Incarnate Construct template, down to the minimum of 0.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Negative LA is still not actually a thing that exists. If you want to develop a definition for Negative LA and assign values to LA -0 creatures using that definition, you can freely do so in a new thread. But this thread is not the one to define and apply Negative LA.


    The Incarnate Construct template says LA -2 (minimum 0); that's a reduction of the base creature's LA by 2, to a minimum LA of 0. You might be able to talk a DM into letting the -2 apply to any templates applied after the Incarnate Construct template, down to the minimum of 0.
    Honestly, I care less about the la and more about just differentiating between being slightly worse than base race, and being as far below fighter as a fighter is below wizard, whether its with numbers, letter grades like D+, D, D- etc, or colors.
    Last edited by Lans; 2017-08-10 at 12:40 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Worse than a standard race+class combo (but still functional) would probably still be classified as +0.


    LA -0 is a category that no PC should draw from without special circumstances and DM involvement.
    As such, developing a definition for and then assigning, further graduations of "worse than ECL=RHD" is generally not going to be particularly relevant for would-be players, and if it's a DM, they can just use CR/monster advancement rules, rather than calculating as a PC.
    But, again, doing that is beyond the scope of this thread/series of threads. If you want to do so, I encourage you to do so, and suggest adding a link to the thread you do that in to a post here, so anyone interested in assisting can do so.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    ...with the aforementioned fire resistance (not how plants work, guys)...
    Well, some trees are fire-resistant, in that they survive forest fires relatively unscathed.* Have you seen any humans manage that?

    *Many fewer now that they have to deal with something far more dangerous than a force of nature—humans who want to build tough houses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    They are lost at a rate of 1 per hour, so if the mound spends an hour a day shocking himself he will add 1500 to his con. Thats at least 6000 hp. From there if he just spends 1 minute a day shocking himself he will be gaining 1 con a day.

    I would say he is effectively immune to hp damage with the cost of 1 feat and an hours prep time.
    Well, if that's the balance level we're going for, we might as well account for Pun-Pun at ECL 4.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Stopping at -0 is silly. There is precedence for negative adjustment, and if a monster is too weak for -0 it shouldn't get -0.

    If you assign a construct an ecl =HD, then you are making - level adjustments a thing due to incarnate construct template.
    Assuming that A. the Incarnate Construct's LA modifier remains unchanged (because otherwise combining the two systems is kinda silly) and B. that Inevitability agrees that combining the two would lead to something he's specifically said he wouldn't allow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    As for the Shield Guardian, I agree it is -0. Although thinking about it from a RP perspective, I think it would be a funny thing to have in the party. Moreso from a sitcom's take on a D&D session than actually playing, though.
    A sitcom-style D&D campaign sounds more interesting than most of the games I've played. It focuses on the reasons one would play D&D over, say, Dark Souls.


    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    But, again, doing that is beyond the scope of this thread/series of threads. If you want to do so, I encourage you to do so, and suggest adding a link to the thread you do that in to a post here, so anyone interested in assisting can do so.
    I've got a Google Doc somewhere of me doing essentially that with the first few LA-0 monsters in the thread. Maybe I should turn that into an actual thread...
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I suppose if we wanted to toy with the idea of negative LAs, we could start a new thread where -0 monsters have templates applied to them to 'fix' them and extrapolate a theoretical negative LA from there.

    We'd have to figure out what templates are 'fair' though. IIRC, Lolth-Touched or something gives +8 to Str and Con for +1 LA. That's going to be hard to work out. Maybe we'd have to make a tier system for templates first. Then we can decide what tier templates work for what creatures for the tier of their role. So a -0 ooze can take the tier 4 Insectoid template to get hands and become a tier 2 caster and make their LA+0?

    In other words, it's difficult enough to not let ourselves get sidetracked here. LA -0 works as a quick fix to keep the thread moving.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I suppose if we wanted to toy with the idea of negative LAs, we could start a new thread where -0 monsters have templates applied to them to 'fix' them and extrapolate a theoretical negative LA from there.

    We'd have to figure out what templates are 'fair' though. IIRC, Lolth-Touched or something gives +8 to Str and Con for +1 LA. That's going to be hard to work out. Maybe we'd have to make a tier system for templates first. Then we can decide what tier templates work for what creatures for the tier of their role. So a -0 ooze can take the tier 4 Insectoid template to get hands and become a tier 2 caster and make their LA+0?
    Nah. We'd need to recalculate the LAs on all the templates we'd be using first, in order for that to work.
    My personal approach/solution to defining what negative LA would be it's that many levels of gestalt class levels next to the RHD; possibly mandating an associated class, although I'm not sure about that bit.


    In other words, it's difficult enough to not let ourselves get sidetracked here. LA -0 works as a quick fix to keep the thread moving.
    Absolutely. It's worth doing ... just in another thread, where we'd have time to get into the weeds on what negative LA should mean, and work out what it should be for all the -0 monsters here.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    If we were going to do that, we could use some of the templates Inevitability's already evaluated.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I actually made that negative-LA thread. Now we can stop talking about it here...hopefully.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post

    Well, if that's the balance level we're going for, we might as well account for Pun-Pun at ECL 4.


    .
    I disagree, its good, but its largely passive. You trade 5 or 6 levels of a caster class, and 2 or 3 levels of a prestige class

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post


    Absolutely. It's worth doing ... just in another thread, where we'd have time to get into the weeds on what negative LA should mean, and work out what it should be for all the -0 monsters here.
    That sounds reasonable

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I actually made that negative-LA thread. Now we can stop talking about it here...hopefully.
    Awesome, Thank you
    Last edited by Lans; 2017-08-10 at 11:17 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    I disagree, its good, but its largely passive. You trade 5 or 6 levels of a caster class, and 2 or 3 levels of a prestige class
    You can get Pun-Pun with just a couple wizard levels, a cheap template, and a prestige class that the template lets you qualify for. It's not the number of levels, it's how you use them, and you'd have to be pretty dang rules-abusive to say "I'm going to spend an hour shocking myself to get stupid-high Constitution, effectively permanently" with a straight face.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Shocker Lizard


    Two magical beast hit dice, small size, a -4 net ability score loss, one weak natural attack, immunity to electricity, a decent land speed, and slow swim and climb speeds. If it weren't for its special attacks, these critters would be on their way to the -0 pile already.

    However, as they are right now they have a couple of semi-interesting abilities that should be mentioned first. Electricity Sense is interesting, and unique as far as I can see, but ultimately not that likely to be useful. Stunning Shock is moderately neat ability that deals 2d8 points of nonlethal damage, which a reflex save halves, whereas Lethal Shock can deal up to 12d8 points of lethal damage in an area as a single standard action (though it does require other nearby lizards).

    Add to this some skill bonuses and I think the resulting creature barely deserves +0 LA. It may have a moderately poor chassis, and the low intelligence stings, but the shocks aren't that bad at low levels and can be developed in interesting ways.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Non lethal electric damage? That's interesting. I bet it could be used for "enhanced interrogation." Possibly against orc babies.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Electricity Sense is probably worthless 99.99%+ of the time. Unless you manage to talk the DM into allowing it to detect the tiny electrical impulses involved in a living creature's nervous system, then it's like a cross between lifesight and blindsense, except worse.


    The Stunning Shock is interesting, but 2d8 Reflex half nonlethal damage isn't great. The only part of this that scales is the Save DC. It's pretty meh. Also ... you could just spend a feat for a 3d6 (I think, AFB) lethal electric melee touch. On it's own, this probably has no net effect on the LA.

    Lethal Shock is really more useful as a monster ability, rather than a PC ability. In order for a player to use it, they need at least one more Shocker Lizard in close proximity and allied. That pretty much requires investing into minionmancy, and there are much better ways to minionmancy.


    I'm actually going to go with -0, or a weak, just barely, +0. At best, it's borderline.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Well, magical beast HD aren't bad, and with only two, that's even better. Most of the racial abilities are worthless, though. If it had positive stat mods, I'd say that +0 was fine, but at -4 overall, I just can't justify it. I agree with -0 LA.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    Thinking on it, what can you do to advance a shadow? Any class that relies on equipment (most of them) are really difficult to play.
    Ooh, ooh, I know! VOW OF POVERTY!!!!1!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Ooh, ooh, I know! VOW OF POVERTY!!!!1!

    ... I have no actual contribution to this thread.
    And I just found my next character.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Lethal Shock is really more useful as a monster ability, rather than a PC ability. In order for a player to use it, they need at least one more Shocker Lizard in close proximity and allied. That pretty much requires investing into minionmancy, and there are much better ways to minionmancy.
    Isn't there a feat that lets you take weird stuff like shocker lizards as familiars? It wouldn't take that much investment.
    Though I'm not sure arcane caster is the best way to advance a shocker lizard...or what that way would be, for that matter...
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Isn't there a feat that lets you take weird stuff like shocker lizards as familiars? It wouldn't take that much investment.
    Though I'm not sure arcane caster is the best way to advance a shocker lizard...or what that way would be, for that matter...
    The Improved Familiar feat does, in fact, though at the level it becomes available (level 5), 4d8 damage isn't that cool anymore.

    Then again, it's a good use of your familiars action, and free area damage every turn for a single feat never hurt a build. I can see people taking it, especially in less high-op games.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The Improved Familiar feat does, in fact, though at the level it becomes available (level 5), 4d8 damage isn't that cool anymore.

    Then again, it's a good use of your familiars action, and free area damage every turn for a single feat never hurt a build. I can see people taking it, especially in less high-op games.
    I could reasonably see 2 players doing this for 8d8x4 damage a round, and from their I could see another player grabbing a shocker lizard as familier

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