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2017-08-09, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
The reasons for not assigning negative LA have been discussed in depth throughout these topics, and I can't see it changing now.
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2017-08-09, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Arcadia
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2017-08-09, 03:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
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2017-08-09, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
I've often wondered, who would actually build a shield guardian? What 15th level character would think that a CR 8 creature is a useful bodyguard?
Edit.
Alternatively, its a level 15 character who is being paid 120k gold for one, because another person with more gold than class levels want one.Last edited by lord_khaine; 2017-08-09 at 04:10 AM.
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2017-08-09, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Plus, y'know, while WE are used to level-appropriate encounters (in the range, anyway), not everybody a character in-world comes across is going to be level-appropriate, nor is it easy to tell who is what level. Far more likely that the average person who attacks them will be some 3rd level humanoid, who will easily be taken out by the SG without the master even needing to lift a finger.
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2017-08-09, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
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- a nice pond
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
What in the world...? I can literally not remember ever having seen this monster before. And if you'd told me it existed, I would have assumed it was from Monster Manual 2 or Fiend Folio or something. I can remember that rasts and ravids and achaierais and suchlike exist, but the shield guardian is a complete blind spot.
Last edited by Malimar; 2017-08-09 at 11:41 AM.
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2017-08-09, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Last edited by Lans; 2017-08-09 at 12:01 PM.
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2017-08-09, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Canterlot, Equestria
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
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2017-08-09, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
I wouldn't be surprised if it was explained in detail in both the first and second thread. Without going into yet another in-depth explanation, negative LA can really break things. Not necessarily WILL, but can. As has already been mentioned, that case is outside the scope of this project. If you feel that there are many -0 monsters, it is probably because monsters as PCs are generally underwhelming. It isn't a fault of the LA re-assignment system that Inevitability (and the gitp community) is taking on, but rather a fault of the D&D system really not being set up to accommodate random monsters as player characters. I don't even mean the original " - " LA monsters, either. In most cases, if you simply flip to a random page in the MM and say "That is what I will use as my character" and subsequently stick with whatever LA (if it had one) it had for your PC, you will be far less useful than a "normal" character of the same ECL.
As for the Shield Guardian, I agree it is -0. Although thinking about it from a RP perspective, I think it would be a funny thing to have in the party. Moreso from a sitcom's take on a D&D session than actually playing, though.
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2017-08-09, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Most recently on the last page of the last thread. Inevitability's input on this is the last post of the previous thread before linking to this one. I understand not wanting to delve into hundreds of posts to find information but this isn't exactly buried so deep you'd need Indiana Jones to unearth.
Regardless of thread size, really easy to find by the "search thread" function.
edit: Also, looks like you were in that discussion, Lans.
edit2: Another vote for -0 on the Shield Guardian.
edit the third: In retrospect, the tone of my post was a bit standoffish, which was not my intent. My apologies if that's how it came across.Last edited by cigaw; 2017-08-09 at 06:30 PM.
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2017-08-09, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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2017-08-09, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Negative LA is still not actually a thing that exists. If you want to develop a definition for Negative LA and assign values to LA -0 creatures using that definition, you can freely do so in a new thread. But this thread is not the one to define and apply Negative LA.
The Incarnate Construct template says LA -2 (minimum 0); that's a reduction of the base creature's LA by 2, to a minimum LA of 0. You might be able to talk a DM into letting the -2 apply to any templates applied after the Incarnate Construct template, down to the minimum of 0.
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2017-08-10, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Last edited by Lans; 2017-08-10 at 12:40 AM.
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2017-08-10, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Worse than a standard race+class combo (but still functional) would probably still be classified as +0.
LA -0 is a category that no PC should draw from without special circumstances and DM involvement.
As such, developing a definition for and then assigning, further graduations of "worse than ECL=RHD" is generally not going to be particularly relevant for would-be players, and if it's a DM, they can just use CR/monster advancement rules, rather than calculating as a PC.
But, again, doing that is beyond the scope of this thread/series of threads. If you want to do so, I encourage you to do so, and suggest adding a link to the thread you do that in to a post here, so anyone interested in assisting can do so.
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2017-08-10, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Well, some trees are fire-resistant, in that they survive forest fires relatively unscathed.* Have you seen any humans manage that?
*Many fewer now that they have to deal with something far more dangerous than a force of nature—humans who want to build tough houses.
Well, if that's the balance level we're going for, we might as well account for Pun-Pun at ECL 4.
Assuming that A. the Incarnate Construct's LA modifier remains unchanged (because otherwise combining the two systems is kinda silly) and B. that Inevitability agrees that combining the two would lead to something he's specifically said he wouldn't allow.
A sitcom-style D&D campaign sounds more interesting than most of the games I've played. It focuses on the reasons one would play D&D over, say, Dark Souls.
I've got a Google Doc somewhere of me doing essentially that with the first few LA-0 monsters in the thread. Maybe I should turn that into an actual thread...
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2017-08-10, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Why am I here?
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
I suppose if we wanted to toy with the idea of negative LAs, we could start a new thread where -0 monsters have templates applied to them to 'fix' them and extrapolate a theoretical negative LA from there.
We'd have to figure out what templates are 'fair' though. IIRC, Lolth-Touched or something gives +8 to Str and Con for +1 LA. That's going to be hard to work out. Maybe we'd have to make a tier system for templates first. Then we can decide what tier templates work for what creatures for the tier of their role. So a -0 ooze can take the tier 4 Insectoid template to get hands and become a tier 2 caster and make their LA+0?
In other words, it's difficult enough to not let ourselves get sidetracked here. LA -0 works as a quick fix to keep the thread moving.
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2017-08-10, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Nah. We'd need to recalculate the LAs on all the templates we'd be using first, in order for that to work.
My personal approach/solution to defining what negative LA would be it's that many levels of gestalt class levels next to the RHD; possibly mandating an associated class, although I'm not sure about that bit.
In other words, it's difficult enough to not let ourselves get sidetracked here. LA -0 works as a quick fix to keep the thread moving.
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2017-08-10, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
If we were going to do that, we could use some of the templates Inevitability's already evaluated.
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2017-08-10, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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2017-08-10, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Last edited by Lans; 2017-08-10 at 11:17 AM.
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2017-08-10, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
You can get Pun-Pun with just a couple wizard levels, a cheap template, and a prestige class that the template lets you qualify for. It's not the number of levels, it's how you use them, and you'd have to be pretty dang rules-abusive to say "I'm going to spend an hour shocking myself to get stupid-high Constitution, effectively permanently" with a straight face.
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2017-08-11, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Arcadia
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Shocker Lizard
Two magical beast hit dice, small size, a -4 net ability score loss, one weak natural attack, immunity to electricity, a decent land speed, and slow swim and climb speeds. If it weren't for its special attacks, these critters would be on their way to the -0 pile already.
However, as they are right now they have a couple of semi-interesting abilities that should be mentioned first. Electricity Sense is interesting, and unique as far as I can see, but ultimately not that likely to be useful. Stunning Shock is moderately neat ability that deals 2d8 points of nonlethal damage, which a reflex save halves, whereas Lethal Shock can deal up to 12d8 points of lethal damage in an area as a single standard action (though it does require other nearby lizards).
Add to this some skill bonuses and I think the resulting creature barely deserves +0 LA. It may have a moderately poor chassis, and the low intelligence stings, but the shocks aren't that bad at low levels and can be developed in interesting ways.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2017-08-11, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Canterlot, Equestria
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Non lethal electric damage? That's interesting. I bet it could be used for "enhanced interrogation." Possibly against orc babies.
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2017-08-11, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Electricity Sense is probably worthless 99.99%+ of the time. Unless you manage to talk the DM into allowing it to detect the tiny electrical impulses involved in a living creature's nervous system, then it's like a cross between lifesight and blindsense, except worse.
The Stunning Shock is interesting, but 2d8 Reflex half nonlethal damage isn't great. The only part of this that scales is the Save DC. It's pretty meh. Also ... you could just spend a feat for a 3d6 (I think, AFB) lethal electric melee touch. On it's own, this probably has no net effect on the LA.
Lethal Shock is really more useful as a monster ability, rather than a PC ability. In order for a player to use it, they need at least one more Shocker Lizard in close proximity and allied. That pretty much requires investing into minionmancy, and there are much better ways to minionmancy.
I'm actually going to go with -0, or a weak, just barely, +0. At best, it's borderline.
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2017-08-11, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
Well, magical beast HD aren't bad, and with only two, that's even better. Most of the racial abilities are worthless, though. If it had positive stat mods, I'd say that +0 was fine, but at -4 overall, I just can't justify it. I agree with -0 LA.
Princess Celestia's Homebrew Corner
Old classes, new classes, and more!
Thanks to AsteriskAmp for the avatar!
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2017-08-11, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- Boston, MA
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
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2017-08-12, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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2017-08-12, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
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2017-08-12, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!
The Improved Familiar feat does, in fact, though at the level it becomes available (level 5), 4d8 damage isn't that cool anymore.
Then again, it's a good use of your familiars action, and free area damage every turn for a single feat never hurt a build. I can see people taking it, especially in less high-op games.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
Come join the new Junkyard Wars and build with SLAs and a breath weapon!
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2017-08-12, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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