The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Celestia]

I don't think holy water is magic, either. It's listed among the alchemical items, and it's description doesn't mention that it's magic. If it is magic, then we don't know any relevant information about it, like what aura it gives off.

[javcs]

LA changed to +0.

Code of Law will not cause the Bog Imp to get an asterisk. Having a code of conduct is not inherently problematic, especially not one as mild as the given examples ('don't harm the handful of people you were once related to' isn't exactly difficult unless the DM makes it so).

My thinking was less the fact that it's a Code, but more that it is so undefined as to what the Code should be.

That is... problematic indeed. The first bit is weird but not too deliberating, as bog imps can survive without water for 38 hours (meaning they can drink a lot just before resting and not be nauseated during the day).

Still, it's definitely something weird. To the dysfunctional rules thread!

The other interpretation... that'd get them an asterisk easily. It's even worse than you're describing: 'stagnate' literally means 'cease moving', so one could argue that being (near) a bog imp causes your blood circulation to cease, followed by loss of consciousness within a few rounds and irreversible brain damage (intelligence/wisdom/charisma drain, I presume) within a couple of minutes.

I think your blood would be okay, on the grounds that there's normally no line of effect to your blood, unless you have an open wound. Once you have an open wound, though ... then you have a problem.

Hmm. What happens to a river? Would a Bog Imp be able to dam up a river if it sat in the right place for long enough?

Mount Celestia has an ocean of holy water I believe, although I guess that's not specifically magical either. Maybe the Forgotten Realms' Moonwells count?

I think Stormscape had magical patches of water. The Elemental Plane of Water might count as magical. So too might some of the big Planar Rivers, like the Styx, Lethe, or some of the other ones.


I'd assume that Holy Water would have an aura of Good. If it has a magical aura, it would probably either be undefined/universal/general or abjuration, IMO.

[flare'90]

I don't think holy water is magic, either. It's listed among the alchemical items, and it's description doesn't mention that it's magic. If it is magic, then we don't know any relevant information about it, like what aura it gives off.

It's the result of magic, but it's not magical itself. Bless water is an instantaneous transmutation, not a permanent one, so the magic operates on the water and then it's gone. At best you get a transmutation aura from the spell when it's cast, but not from the water.
As for the decanter of endless water, if (big if) it works similarly to create water then the water it makes it's not magical. But since it requires control water it gives off a transmutation aura, not a conjuration one.

[InvisibleBison]

I think your blood would be okay, on the grounds that there's normally no line of effect to your blood, unless you have an open wound. Once you have an open wound, though ... then you have a problem.

A hole has to have an area of at least one square foot to let line of effect through a barrier. If you've got that big of a hole in your body, you're already dead.

[3WhiteFox3]

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

Stagnate isn't a spell that targets, and even if you could argue that it creates an effect (which I wouldn't buy personally given that the context is creating an effect with a space that it starts in), you just need Line of Effect to the space. Those are the only things that need line of effect. So yeah, line of effect rules don't protect your blood.

Edit: The bigger issue is that blood stagnation has no rules text to tell us if there is a negative effect or not; and even if there is, the actual effect is up to DM interpretation. From a pure RAW standpoint, have your blood stagnate doesn't actually do anything.

[Thurbane]

I would rule that blood is part of a living creature, the same way the ability (presumably) wouldn't affect a Water Elemental.

[3WhiteFox3]

I would rule that blood is part of a living creature, the same way the ability (presumably) wouldn't affect a Water Elemental.

Nothing says that living creatures wouldn't be affected, so they are by RAW unless it is house-ruled otherwise. So yeah, Water Elementals also stagnate, there's no rules text to tell us if this has a detrimental effect on them though.

[Thurbane]

I see your point, but personally, at least at my table, I'd put it under the same ruling that doesn't allow you to Create Water in a creatures lungs to drown it, or cast a Shatter spell on an enemies skull...

[3WhiteFox3]

I see your point, but personally, at least at my table, I'd put it under the same ruling that doesn't allow you to Create Water in a creatures lungs to drown it, or cast a Shatter spell on an enemies skull...

Both of those things have rules that prevent you from doing that. Create Water is a Conjuration (Creation) spell, which explicitly cannot create something within a creature. And the only way to Shatter a skull is to target it, which is prevented by the Line of Effect rules (You need Line of Effect to target an object with a spell). You are right, by RAW to disallow those things because the rules say that they don't work. Stagnate is very different as you actually have to rewrite the rules text in order to make it not stagnate the liquid in living creatures. Which is a fine house-rule, but by RAW there's an issue.

EDIT: Relevant rules text for Create Water

Conjuration spells can’t create substances or objects within a creature

[Thurbane]

So by RAW, there are no Bog Imps in any given world, because they all died of blood poisoning moments after they came into existence?

[3WhiteFox3]

So by RAW, there are no Bog Imps in any given world, because they all died of blood poisoning moments after they came into existence?

By RAW, blood poisioning has no rules to tell us what happens, so whether or not they die is up to DM interpretation (Note: the Material Plane operates under real-world natural laws, so yeah, they probably die).

Do Bog Imps even have blood? It's reasonable to assume that they do, but there's no real way of knowing if they do; seeing as they are explicitly magical creatures.

That said, while this discussion is fun, I think it's winding down and I don't want to derail the thread. If anyone else wants to talk about Bog Imp dysfunctions, let me know through PM or have me make a thread.

[javcs]

A hole has to have an area of at least one square foot to let line of effect through a barrier. If you've got that big of a hole in your body, you're already dead.

Once you have an open wound, and presumably are bleeding from it, your blood is then exposed - there's no barrier blocking line of effect, and your blood stagnates.
The Line of Effect rules might protect saliva while its in your mouth, though.
However, it's not clear that the Stagnate ability requires line of effect, strictly speaking.

Nothing says that living creatures wouldn't be affected, so they are by RAW unless it is house-ruled otherwise. So yeah, Water Elementals also stagnate, there's no rules text to tell us if this has a detrimental effect on them though.

Actually, I'd say a Water Elemental qualifies as a magical liquid, and would thus be immune to being stagnated by a bog imp.



Wait, new question. What happens to lava/magma when a Bog Imp gets close to it? What's stagnated liquid rock look like? If a Bog Imp gets immunity to fire damage and has some way to breathe, what happens if we chuck it into an active volcano?

[Luccan]

Once you have an open wound, and presumably are bleeding from it, your blood is then exposed - there's no barrier blocking line of effect, and your blood stagnates.
The Line of Effect rules might protect saliva while its in your mouth, though.
However, it's not clear that the Stagnate ability requires line of effect, strictly speaking.



Actually, I'd say a Water Elemental qualifies as a magical liquid, and would thus be immune to being stagnated by a bog imp.



Wait, new question. What happens to lava/magma when a Bog Imp gets close to it? What's stagnated liquid rock look like? If a Bog Imp gets immunity to fire damage and has some way to breathe, what happens if we chuck it into an active volcano?

Well, stagnate means not moving. So if you put enough Bog Imps in/around a volcano ready to blow, would the volcano not erupt? Do waterfalls defy physics when a Bog Imp walks by? What if one tries to milk a cow?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Even more impressive is the 60 ft. burrow speed, which applies to all movement through anything more viscous than clear water.

Is that a RAW burrow-speed thing, or a special ability of the bog imp, or what?

A hole has to have an area of at least one square foot to let line of effect through a barrier. If you've got that big of a hole in your body, you're already dead.

Not necessarily. If it's shallow enough, you might have a few minutes left to live.

Well, stagnate means not moving. So if you put enough Bog Imps in/around a volcano ready to blow, would the volcano not erupt? Do waterfalls defy physics when a Bog Imp walks by? What if one tries to milk a cow?

Despite the etymology, "stagnant water" does not mean "water which is not moving". It does not refer to the water sitting in my water bottle a few feet away from me, but does refer to the sample of putrid swamp-water being shipped from the Everglades to the University of Miami for testing.
What makes water stagnant? Well, the ultimate cause is generally a lack of motion (combined with various environmental factors—distilled water in a sealed container wouldn't grow stagnant if you left it in a closet for several centuries). Various forms of life (primarily microbes, though insects, fish, etc can sometimes play a part) reduce the dissolved oxygen available in the water; since the water isn't constantly being replenished, oxygen returns more slowly. (I'm an ecologist, not a hydrologist; this explanation is probably partly wrong.) Thus, organisms which don't rely on large quantities of dissolved oxygen (such as anaerobic microbes, mosquito larvae, and lungfish) thrive in stagnant water despite the compromises they must make to evade that reliance.
Stagnant water has its associations because many of these organisms are unpleasant to humans, ranging from nasty waterborne or insectborne diseases to even worse smells. Hence, the rapid stagnation of water would presumably involve the rapid growth of such life in the water. (Presumably just the microscopic stuff.) Stagnant lava would therefore be lava filled with surprisingly high concentrations of organic molecules which used to be anaerobic microorganisms.

[Inevitability]

Is that a RAW burrow-speed thing, or a special ability of the bog imp, or what?

Special bog imp ability: it's called Liquid Burrow. It allows their burrow speed to apply in anything more viscous than clear water.

Not necessarily. If it's shallow enough, you might have a few minutes left to live.

Also this is D&D, where 'getting stabbed in the heart' is 2d4 damage and a moderately difficult save vs. death. A giant hole in your gut is just a minor inconvenience to high-level characters.

[The_Iron_Lord]

Special bog imp ability: it's called Liquid Burrow. It allows their burrow speed to apply in anything more viscous than clear water.



Also this is D&D, where 'getting stabbed in the heart' is 2d4 damage and a moderately difficult save vs. death. A giant hole in your gut is just a minor inconvenience to high-level characters.

That's actually quite interesting...

Also, where are those rules? I can't say I'm surprised, but I am curious as to where that text is from...Seriously, what editor thought that was a good idea?!

[Malimar]

Also, where are those rules? I can't say I'm surprised, but I am curious as to where that text is from...Seriously, what editor thought that was a good idea?!

He's probably referring to a coup de grace with a dagger.

[Inevitability]

Imagine someone is completely and fully tied up, then paralyzed by having their strength drained to 0, left completely unable to move or be moved due to chance, and then stabbed in the heart by a person of average strength receiving the benefit of a True Strike spell.

There is literally no way to fluff this other than 'the guy gets stabbed in the heart', and yet in D&D terms, this entire attack would just be a coup de grace with a dagger, which deals 2d4 points of damage and a fortitude save equal to 10+damage taken. Either that or some ridiculously convulted law of the universe causes every potentially nonfatal strike to the heart to get thrown off by random chance.

2d4 points of damage is on average insufficient to incapacitate a 1st-level rogue and completely incapable of knocking a 1st-level monk out (presuming neither has below-average constitution). The saving throw is a bigger concern, but DC 15 is surprisingly manageable even for a level 1 character. A typical level 1 human fighter (14 constitution) would have a 50% chance of surviving that.

Ergo, getting stabbed in the heart is moderately dangerous in D&D, but by far not as dangerous as it would be in real life.

[Nifft]

Imagine someone is completely and fully tied up, then paralyzed by having their strength drained to 0, left completely unable to move or be moved due to chance, and then stabbed in the heart by a person of average strength receiving the benefit of a True Strike spell.

There is literally no way to fluff this other than 'the guy gets stabbed in the heart', and yet in D&D terms, this entire attack would just be a coup de grace with a dagger, which deals 2d4 points of damage and a fortitude save equal to 10+damage taken. Either that or some ridiculously convulted law of the universe causes every potentially nonfatal strike to the heart to get thrown off by random chance.

2d4 points of damage is on average insufficient to incapacitate a 1st-level rogue and completely incapable of knocking a 1st-level monk out (presuming neither has below-average constitution). The saving throw is a bigger concern, but DC 15 is surprisingly manageable even for a level 1 character. A typical level 1 human fighter (14 constitution) would have a 50% chance of surviving that.

Ergo, getting stabbed in the heart is moderately dangerous in D&D, but by far not as dangerous as it would be in real life.

This is one of those situations where rolling as if it were a combat action with a chance of failure is not the best way to represent the action.

The DM can just say: "Yep that character got stabbed in the heart, no need to roll. That character is dead."

Only roll when there's a chance that the action fails.

D&D has never been a physics engine.

[Falontani]

Imagine someone is completely and fully tied up, then paralyzed by having their strength drained to 0, left completely unable to move or be moved due to chance, and then stabbed in the heart by a person of average strength receiving the benefit of a True Strike spell.

There is literally no way to fluff this other than 'the guy gets stabbed in the heart', and yet in D&D terms, this entire attack would just be a coup de grace with a dagger, which deals 2d4 points of damage and a fortitude save equal to 10+damage taken. Either that or some ridiculously convulted law of the universe causes every potentially nonfatal strike to the heart to get thrown off by random chance.

2d4 points of damage is on average insufficient to incapacitate a 1st-level rogue and completely incapable of knocking a 1st-level monk out (presuming neither has below-average constitution). The saving throw is a bigger concern, but DC 15 is surprisingly manageable even for a level 1 character. A typical level 1 human fighter (14 constitution) would have a 50% chance of surviving that.

Ergo, getting stabbed in the heart is moderately dangerous in D&D, but by far not as dangerous as it would be in real life.

See your commoners coup de grace all wrong, grab a scythe or a greataxe. Then perform a coup de grace. Proficiency doesn't really matter when they are helpless. so a 3d12 or better yet an 8d4 is going to have a much better chance at killing an adventurer.
Also for those that want coup de grace rules to be dangerous might I suggest bumping it to 2x damage after critical multiplier Meaning the dagger does 4d4 and a greataxe would do 6d12. Much harder to survive that, and it makes more sense, at least to me

[Inevitability]

New thread! Please no longer post in this one, thanks in advance.