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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    As an aside, Inevitability: Did you officially establish that INT --, 1, or 2 creatures are assumed to be able to take class levels, for the purpose of LA assignment? I just saw a rule in Savage Species, explicitly stating that creatures with intelligence scores below 3 cannot have levels in any class, which would kind of hurt the spider eater, for one. I wouldn't want to advance as magical beast, no matter the freedoms of movement I might get.
    Firstly, as a magical beast (rather than an animal) there's no rule restricting its intelligence to 1 or 2, so a player could assign an 11 there and satisfy PC requirements.

    Also, I do assume that mindless or unintelligent beings somehow get sufficient intelligence.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I swear that the writers were on drugs when designing some of these monsters.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    "This creature is basically a bear-sized wasp monster that can paralyze its prey for weeks, lays eggs inside of them, and is supernaturally resistant to all movement-impeding effects."
    "What are you going to name it after?"
    "Probably its diet. It eats spiders: how crazy is that?"
    It's a crime that this won't be seen by any more than the few hundred (? ish? Maybe?) people who check out this thread.

    That said, I think +1 is completely fine. Flight + FoM is worth forcing 5th level, since everything else can be summed up as "can hit things moderately well."
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I also agree with +1. This is a bleh package for ECL 5, but honestly getting some of those super needed abilities will be awesome later on.
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    Mate, we have a PrC for skydiving dwarves and a feat that lets you turn Turn Undead into Rebuke Hippos in this game.

    Nothing is out of reach of a 3.5 character.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I swear that the writers were on drugs when designing some of these monsters.
    Or they just got back from a trip to Australia.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I swear that the writers were on drugs when designing some of these monsters.
    A lot of the 1st Edition monsters were just plastic dollar store "dinosaurs" with a random name and ability attached.
    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Imagine if the combat system was as well thought out and explained as the skill system. You could cut it down to a page and a half, monsters would be about three sentences long. Best of all you don't have to remember any tables for conditions or detail the special abilities because you've got rulings instead of rules.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Sanity View Post
    Or they just got back from a trip to Australia.
    Australia has beholders? Oh ****!
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Australia has beholders? Oh ****!
    Oh believe me, from what I've heard, beholders probably last long there before dying out.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I knew Spider Eaters were a thing, but I could have sworn they were from one of the later MMs, or possibly Fiend Folio. Flabbergasted that they're in MM1. What other secrets is this book hiding from me?

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    eek Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    I knew Spider Eaters were a thing, but I could have sworn they were from one of the later MMs, or possibly Fiend Folio. Flabbergasted that they're in MM1. What other secrets is this book hiding from me?
    Probably the secret to immortality. But it comes with 24 racial hit dice.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Probably the secret to immortality. But it comes with 24 racial hit dice.
    Yeah, and LA: +21 (cohort).

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Pffft, the secret to immortality is in Dungeon Magazine. No, really-one of the treasures at the bottom of Castle Maur was an artifact elixir that rendered the drinker immortal, at least age-wise. you still took physical ability score penalties every century until you hit 1, though, so it was kind of meh.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by JBarca View Post
    It's a crime that this won't be seen by any more than the few hundred (? ish? Maybe?) people who check out this thread.

    That said, I think +1 is completely fine. Flight + FoM is worth forcing 5th level, since everything else can be summed up as "can hit things moderately well."
    Pros:
    +10 Str
    +10 Con
    +2 Dex
    +2 Wis
    Full BAB (all 4 HD)

    That's more than just hitting moderately well. That's a +5 bonus over what you could expect any similarly-priced statted Str-based character to obtain.

    That bonus means less over time, as Wild Shape and poly any object come into play, but that's when the freedom of movement starts to shine.

    All-day flight is available to Warlocks at level 6. That's where I think this guy should sit.


    Here's a sample build:

    Spider Eater 4 / Barbarian 3 (pounce totem) / Fist of the Forest 3 / Bear Warrior 10

    Barbarian 3: Lion Spirit Totem (for Pounce); Trapslayer ACF (to find traps with Survival and kill them with BAB).
    Fist of the Forest: nice Unarmed Strike damage (take Beast Strike to add claw damage to unarmed strikes); add Con to AC (and you have +10 Con).
    Bear Warrior: add another large bonus to your already absurd Strength, and get more attacks.

    Bumping the Spider Eater to LA +2 would allow this exact build, but with 2 fewer levels of Barbarian (removing Uncanny Dodge and Trapslayer). Still quite competitive, but not totally overshadowing the basic Barb 4 / FotF 3 / Bear Warrior 10 / whatever 3.


    A Meldshaper or Martial Initiator could be even more powerful.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    On the one hand, yeah, on the other ... it doesn't really have proper hands, going by the picture and/or description, it seems most/all manipulation would be done with its mouth.
    Oh, sure, mouthpick weapons are a thing ... but lacking hands or a suitable equivalent capability is a significant downside, and one that I think hasn't always been fully considered.


    Edit: That is to say, I think LA +1 is fine.
    Last edited by javcs; 2017-08-31 at 01:37 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Pros:
    +10 Str
    +10 Con
    +2 Dex
    +2 Wis
    Full BAB (all 4 HD)

    That's more than just hitting moderately well. That's a +5 bonus over what you could expect any similarly-priced statted Str-based character to obtain.

    That bonus means less over time, as Wild Shape and poly any object come into play, but that's when the freedom of movement starts to shine.

    All-day flight is available to Warlocks at level 6. That's where I think this guy should sit.
    The lack of a weapon means damage balances out fairly well. A Medium Barbarian with a Masterwork weapon has narrowed that attack bonus gap to a mere 1 while raging.

    Sure, a Warlock is flying at 6th. The Warlock could also instead be doing any combination of being the face (Beguiling Influence, Charm), being the Rogue (Baleful Utterance), creating some BFC (Earthen Grasp, Miasmic Cloud, Breath of the Night), having maneuverability (Spiderwalk, Fell Flight, Swimming the Styx), having great senses (See the Unseen, All-Seeing eyes), etc. The Warlock is a completely different class of character than the Spider Eater. Comparing the two does not do the Spider Eater any favors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
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    The slings and arrows of Tucker's Kobolds
    Or to take arms against a Sea of Mooks
    And by casting Protection from Arrows, end them?

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Firstly, as a magical beast (rather than an animal) there's no rule restricting its intelligence to 1 or 2, so a player could assign an 11 there and satisfy PC requirements.

    Also, I do assume that mindless or unintelligent beings somehow get sufficient intelligence.
    Good point, that. You'd even learn a language. It does mean you can't reasonably dump intelligence, but that's a minor drawback. Alrighty, thanks.


    On the spider eater: Serpent Kingdoms has the Barbed Stinger feat, which grants you Improved Grab with your stinger, dealing automatic sting damage (including poison) each round you maintain hold. So if you can manage a ten-round hold, your opponent will have a chance to be paralyzed each round, at no additional action cost!

    ...Okay, that's not the real benefit. I was thinking, a Barbed Stinger with venomfire might be a decent start for a grappling build. Combine with druidic avenger, cleric, or Totem Rager (no native venomfire casting), and it'll definitely leave an impression on the rest of the table.
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    Read ExLibrisMortis' post...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader build. Fun in melee-heavy tactical battles.

  17. - Top - End - #227
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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Pros:
    +10 Str
    +10 Con
    +2 Dex
    +2 Wis
    Full BAB (all 4 HD)

    That's more than just hitting moderately well. That's a +5 bonus over what you could expect any similarly-priced statted Str-based character to obtain.

    That bonus means less over time, as Wild Shape and poly any object come into play, but that's when the freedom of movement starts to shine.

    All-day flight is available to Warlocks at level 6. That's where I think this guy should sit.


    Here's a sample build:

    Spider Eater 4 / Barbarian 3 (pounce totem) / Fist of the Forest 3 / Bear Warrior 10

    Barbarian 3: Lion Spirit Totem (for Pounce); Trapslayer ACF (to find traps with Survival and kill them with BAB).
    Fist of the Forest: nice Unarmed Strike damage (take Beast Strike to add claw damage to unarmed strikes); add Con to AC (and you have +10 Con).
    Bear Warrior: add another large bonus to your already absurd Strength, and get more attacks.

    Bumping the Spider Eater to LA +2 would allow this exact build, but with 2 fewer levels of Barbarian (removing Uncanny Dodge and Trapslayer). Still quite competitive, but not totally overshadowing the basic Barb 4 / FotF 3 / Bear Warrior 10 / whatever 3.


    A Meldshaper or Martial Initiator could be even more powerful.

    I agree with most of this analysis, but I feel it neglects the huge hit to Int and lack of manipulative appendages.

    Skills matter. Unless you put an 18 into starting Int, you're likely to be only getting 1 skill point/level.

    I'm on the border between LA +2 and LA +1, but I think I'll vote LA +1.
    Last edited by Thurbane; 2017-08-31 at 04:04 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I agree with most of this analysis, but I feel it neglects the huge hit to Int and lack of manipulative appendages.

    Skills matter. Unless you put an 18 into starting Int, you're likely to be only getting 1 skill point/level.
    You're right that skills matter, but it's not true that paying for 18 Int is required.

    Pay for 14 base Int (paying 6 points), and you'll have -2 skill points per level. That turns Swordsage into 4 skills maxed; Scout into 6 skills maxed; Barbarian into 2 skills maxed.

    If you only got 2 skills, those two skills would probably be Spot and Listen, since you get a +4 racial bonus on those, and +2 Wisdom.

    You'd be a bit one-dimensional, but you'd handily outperform other PCs within that area -- and that's what LA is supposed to correct.

    Consider a 32-point-buy. Pick race Spider Eater and stats like...
    Str 14 + 10 => 24
    Dex 14 +2 => 16
    Con 14 +10 => 24
    Int 14 -8 => 6
    Wis 14 +2 => 16
    Cha 10

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    You're right that skills matter, but it's not true that paying for 18 Int is required.

    Pay for 14 base Int (paying 6 points), and you'll have -2 skill points per level. That turns Swordsage into 4 skills maxed; Scout into 6 skills maxed; Barbarian into 2 skills maxed.

    If you only got 2 skills, those two skills would probably be Spot and Listen, since you get a +4 racial bonus on those, and +2 Wisdom.

    You'd be a bit one-dimensional, but you'd handily outperform other PCs within that area -- and that's what LA is supposed to correct.

    Consider a 32-point-buy. Pick race Spider Eater and stats like...
    Str 14 + 10 => 24
    Dex 14 +2 => 16
    Con 14 +10 => 24
    Int 14 -8 => 6
    Wis 14 +2 => 16
    Cha 10

    True, and good points.

    Maybe you could come up with some weird back-story and have Nymph's Kiss as one of your starting feats...
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  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Honestly a magical beast being friends with a fey seems less odd than, say, a neraph.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    Mate, we have a PrC for skydiving dwarves and a feat that lets you turn Turn Undead into Rebuke Hippos in this game.

    Nothing is out of reach of a 3.5 character.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    There's also the Open-Minded feat in XPH (I think).

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    Thumbs up Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    Honestly a magical beast being friends with a fey seems less odd than, say, a neraph.
    I keep forgetting that these guys are Magical Beasts, not Aberrations...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    There's also the Open-Minded feat in XPH (I think).
    Yep, Open Minded is a general feat found in XPH, as well as CAd.
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  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    You'd be a bit one-dimensional, but you'd handily outperform other PCs within that area -- and that's what LA is supposed to correct.
    LA is not supposed to be that strict. It's completely fair to be a few points better at Spot/Listen than a human with max ranks and 14 wisdom, if you give up in other departments (which spider eaters do, and massively). For one, humans will always be 4 points ahead on Knowledge skills, plus that they can actually afford ranks.

    Giving up skill ranks and appendages means you can't cast spells without Eschew Materials and Surrogate Spellcasting, you can't enter a lot of PrCs (seriously, every other PrC requires 8 ranks in some skill), you can't communicate with the party without a pearl of speech (not expensive, but it's a body slot), your armour is at 2x cost, your weapons need an extra +1 bonus to be mouthpick'd, and you probably can't use Craft, Disable Device, Forgery, Heal, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device, or Use Rope, because of the delicate manipulation required.

    Spider eaters have a full attack at 2d8+12 (base 16 STR), which is about the same as an orc barbarian's single hit at ECL 5 (2d6+14, 2-point PA, rage, same base 16 STR). That's at the same to-hit: orcs get +1 bab, a masterwork greatsword, and no size penalty. I'm not even counting that the spider eater's bite is at -5, or that it can't actually fly and full attack (it'd fall).


    Edit: Just realized that spider eaters only have two class skills: Spot and Listen. Annoying.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2017-08-31 at 08:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
    Read ExLibrisMortis' post...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader build. Fun in melee-heavy tactical battles.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    When this thread finished the MM, we should celebrate by trying to think up good characters (not just builds) for each of these monsters.

    "Bzzzz... I was considered a little slow in the warblade dojo, but what they should have known was that I was learning more carefully. Bzzzz... I will always appreciate the compassion that the master showed for me, he made me truly feel 'human'. Bzzzz... I'm really hungry for a spider right about now."
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Australia has beholders? Oh ****!
    Just think, in Australia having spider eaters around raises your property value. Because they keep the spiders in check.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Sanity View Post
    Just think, in Australia having spider eaters around raises your property value. Because they keep the spiders in check.
    I live in Australia and my wife has the most intense arachnophobia of anyone I've ever met. Fun times.

    ...at least we're at the Southern end of the country, the spiders are generally worse up North.
    Last edited by Thurbane; 2017-08-31 at 09:37 PM.
    Junkyard Wars XIV: IB + EWM - SC

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I live in Australia and my ife has the most intense arachnophobia of anyone I've ever met. Fun times.

    ...at least we're at the Southern end of the country, the spiders are generally worse up North.
    I prefer to interpret this as wildlife claiming territory like gangs. "Up north the Spyders are the big threat."
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    When this thread finished the MM, we should celebrate by trying to think up good characters (not just builds) for each of these monsters.

    "Bzzzz... I was considered a little slow in the warblade dojo, but what they should have known was that I was learning more carefully. Bzzzz... I will always appreciate the compassion that the master showed for me, he made me truly feel 'human'. Bzzzz... I'm really hungry for a spider right about now."
    I'm actually considering starting a hop-on-hop-off game of short dungeon crawls to let people play monstrous characters once this book's finished.
    Gold: the color of lawful neutrality.

    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I'm actually considering starting a hop-on-hop-off game of short dungeon crawls to let people play monstrous characters once this book's finished.
    Sounds good to me. Of course, that is still a ways off if you plan on doing all the other MMs and such.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I live in Australia and my wife has the most intense arachnophobia of anyone I've ever met. Fun times.
    I kinda feel the death world known as Australia is one of the few places where its really justified? I mean, suposedly you got some really nasty buggers over there, ones that can kill a man.

    Where i live spiders dont grow much larger than a centimeter or two (discounting legs), but some girls are still scared of them. Go figure
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