Custom Creations in a Game?

[Darth Ultron]

So this came up in my game again, and it makes me wonder how others do this. How do you handle custom items, everything from classes, to spells and feats and other things. in a game? As the ''rules'' just say the custom things can be made, I'm not sure if the edition matters.

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates? This is a weird question for me, but some players(often, but not always the optimizing roll players) think (''demand'') that before the game even starts that the DM must give all the players full write ups of any custom creations.

The more reasonable players say that spells, magic items, and monsters and mundane custom items can be unknown to the players, but anything else such as feats or classes must be told in detail before the game starts.

So, some players think it's ok for a spellcaster to have a custom made spell or magic item. I guess with the ''in game'' idea that the character can make a spell or item and not tell or share it with anyone. But no one can ''make a feat'', so any feat is know and available to everyone.

As DM I do the more: Players only know about Custom Creations I choose to tell them about. The rest they don't know about, at least until they encounter them in the game. The reasonable players think it's ok for say a Fire Cult to have a secret custom spell, but oddly will say they can't have a secret feat, alternative class feature, or class. Also I don't think the players should just get the rules text of any Custom Creation, unless they gain it in the game. So their characters might encounter the Fire Cult and see the 'Claws of Fire'' spell, but they don't immediately get the rule write up of the spell.

This allows Custom Creations to be another form of treasure. It's something a character must find to be able to use. And this provides a good motivation to adventure. But even doing it the more reasoanable player way would mean no 'treasure like feats', for example.

2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations This is related to question one. A lot of players seem to think that ''the player'' should know everything ''in the rules'', and they define ''the rules'' as ''whatever they want to know at any moment''. So they think the players should be given the full rules write up text of any custom creation, just like it would be in a rule book. The player does not know when or where in the game it will be used, but they demand to have all the information.

As DM, I'd say all Custom Creations are unknown to a player, unless their character gains it somehow in the game. And a lot of them will remain unknown to the players forever. And that players can encounter something in the game, without knowing the full write up of it.

The demand for the 'full write up'' often feels like a cheep optimizer roll player exploit where they just want to ''use the rules to find an exploit or loophole''. It also ruins any mystery or surprise as it high lights the ''you will encounter this custom creation soon in the game''. This also has the idea that the player will ''pretend'' like the character does not know all the information the player does. So when the player is given the write up of the Spider Sphere of Doom, and then their character encounters ''a large white sphere with black spider designs '' they will have their character act like they don't know what it is. Sometimes. More often then not though they will ''for no reason'' prepare and counter the effects they know are coming as they read the write up. So they will be like ''oh, my character just casts delay poisons for no reason as soon as they see the sphere, as the player knows it summons spiders.

Most games, or at least most of my games, also use lots of rule books. I only ban a couple of them. So that is a ton of things the players are ''free to look up and know about'' (but not at the table, during a game). But the mass of things hides them and does not highlight them, with like two dozen books and hundreds of magic items, few players can remember even a quarter of them. But when the DM hands you a Custom Creation write up, it's a huge ''easy button''.

3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations? This really comes only from the Hostile Adversarial Roll Players. They want to ''check the DM'' and make sure the DM is following the rules and playing right (in their view). And if they, and the other players, don't like something, they think they should be able to veto it.

I would never allow this, and would not even game with such a person.

4.How much Custom Creations is too much?

Some players complain that ''we are all playing the same game'' or some nonsense like that, and that means everything in the game must be known to all and by the book. They want to play only the boring, by the book game. Over and over and over and over again. So they say Custom Creations should be ''rare''.

Sadly, lots of otherwise good players also think this...for reasons few can explain..other then the exploiting the rules or such.

And ''rare'' can be ''a couple''(like three?) a game to ''once in a while''(like only one every 2-3 games).

As DM, I think any amount is great and fine. I don't think I've ever done a ''100%'' game, but I've done like ''a goblin wizard with all Custom Spells''.

So, how does everyone else do it?

[Quertus]

Great topic! I hadn't given it as much thought as it deserves. Lets see...

As the ''rules'' just say the custom things can be made, I'm not sure if the edition matters.

This actually matters quite a bit, as the system often has built in assumptions about how knowledge works, let alone differing systems for character growth.

This won't be the first time that I've said this, but I suspect that you're playing a system that doesn't match your style very well.

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates? This is a weird question for me, but some players(often, but not always the optimizing roll players) think (''demand'') that before the game even starts that the DM must give all the players full write ups of any custom creations.

The more reasonable players say that spells, magic items, and monsters and mundane custom items can be unknown to the players, but anything else such as feats or classes must be told in detail before the game starts.

So, some players think it's ok for a spellcaster to have a custom made spell or magic item. I guess with the ''in game'' idea that the character can make a spell or item and not tell or share it with anyone. But no one can ''make a feat'', so any feat is know and available to everyone.

As DM I do the more: Players only know about Custom Creations I choose to tell them about. The rest they don't know about, at least until they encounter them in the game. The reasonable players think it's ok for say a Fire Cult to have a secret custom spell, but oddly will say they can't have a secret feat, alternative class feature, or class. Also I don't think the players should just get the rules text of any Custom Creation, unless they gain it in the game. So their characters might encounter the Fire Cult and see the 'Claws of Fire'' spell, but they don't immediately get the rule write up of the spell.

This allows Custom Creations to be another form of treasure. It's something a character must find to be able to use. And this provides a good motivation to adventure. But even doing it the more reasoanable player way would mean no 'treasure like feats', for example.

In D&D 3e, because of builds and trap options and such, yes, there is the expectation that you should either present all custom content* up front, or allow your players to rebuild their characters at will, to utilize this content.

Honestly, what's cooler than having a player build a character around the custom content you made?

In systems that aren't as horrible at locking you into a build as 3e, you might have more leeway to have "treasure feats".

* any that could affect character builds. Which, given gear dependency, prohibited schools, etc, is arguable everything. But definitely feats and prestige classes.

2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations This is related to question one. A lot of players seem to think that ''the player'' should know everything ''in the rules'', and they define ''the rules'' as ''whatever they want to know at any moment''. So they think the players should be given the full rules write up text of any custom creation, just like it would be in a rule book. The player does not know when or where in the game it will be used, but they demand to have all the information.

As DM, I'd say all Custom Creations are unknown to a player, unless their character gains it somehow in the game. And a lot of them will remain unknown to the players forever. And that players can encounter something in the game, without knowing the full write up of it.

The demand for the 'full write up'' often feels like a cheep optimizer roll player exploit where they just want to ''use the rules to find an exploit or loophole''. It also ruins any mystery or surprise as it high lights the ''you will encounter this custom creation soon in the game''. This also has the idea that the player will ''pretend'' like the character does not know all the information the player does. So when the player is given the write up of the Spider Sphere of Doom, and then their character encounters ''a large white sphere with black spider designs '' they will have their character act like they don't know what it is. Sometimes. More often then not though they will ''for no reason'' prepare and counter the effects they know are coming as they read the write up. So they will be like ''oh, my character just casts delay poisons for no reason as soon as they see the sphere, as the player knows it summons spiders.

Most games, or at least most of my games, also use lots of rule books. I only ban a couple of them. So that is a ton of things the players are ''free to look up and know about'' (but not at the table, during a game). But the mass of things hides them and does not highlight them, with like two dozen books and hundreds of magic items, few players can remember even a quarter of them. But when the DM hands you a Custom Creation write up, it's a huge ''easy button''.

Well, this one's tricky. Personally, I prefer the 2e air of mystery, and actually using your brain and elbow grease to figure out what things are / do, over the 3e knowledge check mindset. But, in the 3e that you appear to be playing, characters with appropriate knowledges should just know stuff. Those without such knowledge... should probably be given write ups after the fact. What's cooler than having your custom content reused in someone else's game? That, and I prefer to run my characters in multiple games in the first place.

3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations? This really comes only from the Hostile Adversarial Roll Players. They want to ''check the DM'' and make sure the DM is following the rules and playing right (in their view). And if they, and the other players, don't like something, they think they should be able to veto it.

I would never allow this, and would not even game with such a person.

Well, when you declare something with the stats of an ancient dragon to be CR 1, yes, there's a problem. When you declare something better than a vorpal blade to be worth 2 copper, there's a problem. And I've had plenty of DMs who really were this bad.

Even I can occasionally make calls on custom prices or custom CR that merit review. Having skilled players who are willing to help keep the world consistent and reasonable is a good thing.

Being willing to work with your players makes the game much better.

Still, I'm struggling to come up with anything that would make any sense for the players to outright veto... EDIT: a wizard healing spell in the enchantment school, maybe?

4.How much Custom Creations is too much?

Some players complain that ''we are all playing the same game'' or some nonsense like that, and that means everything in the game must be known to all and by the book. They want to play only the boring, by the book game. Over and over and over and over again. So they say Custom Creations should be ''rare''.

Sadly, lots of otherwise good players also think this...for reasons few can explain..other then the exploiting the rules or such.

And ''rare'' can be ''a couple''(like three?) a game to ''once in a while''(like only one every 2-3 games).

As DM, I think any amount is great and fine. I don't think I've ever done a ''100%'' game, but I've done like ''a goblin wizard with all Custom Spells''.

So, how does everyone else do it?

Quertus invented more custom sensory / detect / information gathering spells than there are published spells in core. I personally love custom / puzzle monsters. There is no such thing as too much.

However, things that are common in your world, and things that are common knowledge in your world, should be "published" to the players in some fashion, to represent their knowledge of these things.

[Jay R]

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates?
2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations
3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations?

No, no, and no. The primary reason to have custom creations is to re-inject a bit of mystery - monsters whose weaknesses aren't known, magic items which are dangerous to try to use, enemies with unexpected powers.

In my last 2e world, the introduction to the game included the following:

DO NOT assume that you know anything about any fantasy creatures. I will re-write many monsters and races, introduce some not in D&D, and eliminate some. The purpose is to make the world strange and mysterious. It will allow (require) PCs to learn, by trial and error, what works. Most of these changes I will not tell you in advance. Here are a couple, just to give you some idea what I mean.
1. Dragons are not color-coded for the benefit of the PCs.
2. Of elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, kobolds, goblins, and orcs, at least one does not exist, at least one is slightly different from the books, and at least one is wildly different.
3. Several monsters have different alignments from the books.
4. The name of an Undead will not tell you what will or won’t hurt it.
5. The first time you see a member of a humanoid race, I will describe it as a “vaguely man-shaped creature.” This could be a kobold, an elf, or an Umber Hulk until you learn what they are.

Early on, I introduced a race called "goblins". They were functionally orcs, with two changes.
1. They were albino. This explains why sunshine hurts their abilities.
2. They were almost mindless, and very easy to control. The only time the PCs saw them without a leader, they fought by just running in and attacking. The third time they saw them was a seige, and there was one ogre standing behind each goblin unit, to keep them from running away.

Once, the goblins appeared riding wolves. Their tactic that time was to divert the weakest looking PC away from the party, and then try to make off with him. This is the tactic of a wolf pack, indicating that the leader wasn't the goblin chief, but the alpha wolf he was riding.

It didn't go that far, but I had plans to introduce elves - but they would have been the heartless, glamorous elves of Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies.

Obviously, describing what the goblins and elves were like at the start of the game would have prevented their whole purpose, which was to provide mysteries to solve.

3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations?

Players approve every aspect of every game in the standard, general way -- they can always vote with their feet. I made it very clear (see quote above) what they were in for. No player chose to leave the game, and no player complained about it.

4.How much Custom Creations is too much?

That depends on the DM and the players, and how the game goes. There is no general answer.

[VoxRationis]

If I introduce new content, it's often in the form of specialized knowledge that only certain groups in-universe know. Characters will need to either have a very good reason for having that knowledge or will need to use in-game roleplaying to get access to it.

For example, in one 3.5 campaign which was aborted due to people (including myself) all moving away, I developed a tactical feat called something like "Spear-Planting Charges" so that a particular group of NPCs (some traditionalist tribal fighters in the most remote reaches of the setting) would have a distinctive fighting style. This feat would be available to characters, but only if they were A) from the specific subculture already, or B) befriended and trained with members of that subculture as part of the campaign. Since the characters don't have any exposure or contact with the feat beyond seeing it in action, there is no reason for them to know the rules behind it.

Alternatively, sometimes there are pieces of new content that are introduced that are appropriate to be applied more broadly. In those cases, I would make the rules known.

[Tinkerer]

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates?

Borderline for me. Theoretically yes with the exception of background feats/edges (things which specifically must be taken at character creation although even those will often come up when someone has to make up a new character). Although "access" can be considerably more limited than one might think (might require specific training for skills/feats/powers). I'm not saying that it is impossible for the characters to learn and gain access to anything which I may create, I'm just saying that it may be extremely difficult and usually not worth it. Several NPCs have skills which no player would want because they are far too situational.

2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations

Nope, although I will sometimes give them copies of characters which died or otherwise they won't see again/nations which they've overthrown etc... as a sort of behind the scenes look at DMing. Partly to show that I'm always playing fair, partly because sometimes the NPC pulled off something which the PCs didn't even know was possible and I wanted to show the players what happened, and partly as trophies so they can stick them in their character books like a severed head.

3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations?

No, although I will listen to their input on occasion. But really just no

4.How much Custom Creations is too much?

That partially depends on the world. If it's a custom world than definitely the sky is the limit. If you are running Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms or Shadowrun or any other established world than I would have to say that you are running too much custom if the group cannot even recognize the world. Actually... I take back what I said about never having too much in a custom world. If your PCs are inherently inferior to your NPCs due to playing by a different set of rules then you probably have too much custom content (and you're pretty bad at making custom content).

On Custom Content in general I am of the mind set that it mechanically on the whole it should be inferior to the content in the book. This helps keep you from a bad case of power creep and it reinforces that the options in the book are the most common options for a good reason, they are just better generally. However they do have the advantage of you being able to control the situation where they come up so situational abilities are more useful in the hands of NPCs than PCs. This helps to balance things out.

[ImNotTrevor]

My only issue with "you know nothing about this world" is that it turns the PCs into people who are unlearned about the world they've lived in their whole life. If these albino-goblin-orcs are a regular problem, it is a little weird for these adventurers and longtime residents of the world to be entirely ignorant of them.

It's one thing to introduce a race with a new description before the reveal, but if I'm an elf, I should immediately recognize another elf, no matter how unique the setting.

[FreddyNoNose]

So this came up in my game again, and it makes me wonder how others do this. How do you handle custom items, everything from classes, to spells and feats and other things. in a game? As the ''rules'' just say the custom things can be made, I'm not sure if the edition matters.

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates? This is a weird question for me, but some players(often, but not always the optimizing roll players) think (''demand'') that before the game even starts that the DM must give all the players full write ups of any custom creations.

The more reasonable players say that spells, magic items, and monsters and mundane custom items can be unknown to the players, but anything else such as feats or classes must be told in detail before the game starts.

So, some players think it's ok for a spellcaster to have a custom made spell or magic item. I guess with the ''in game'' idea that the character can make a spell or item and not tell or share it with anyone. But no one can ''make a feat'', so any feat is know and available to everyone.

As DM I do the more: Players only know about Custom Creations I choose to tell them about. The rest they don't know about, at least until they encounter them in the game. The reasonable players think it's ok for say a Fire Cult to have a secret custom spell, but oddly will say they can't have a secret feat, alternative class feature, or class. Also I don't think the players should just get the rules text of any Custom Creation, unless they gain it in the game. So their characters might encounter the Fire Cult and see the 'Claws of Fire'' spell, but they don't immediately get the rule write up of the spell.

This allows Custom Creations to be another form of treasure. It's something a character must find to be able to use. And this provides a good motivation to adventure. But even doing it the more reasoanable player way would mean no 'treasure like feats', for example.

2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations This is related to question one. A lot of players seem to think that ''the player'' should know everything ''in the rules'', and they define ''the rules'' as ''whatever they want to know at any moment''. So they think the players should be given the full rules write up text of any custom creation, just like it would be in a rule book. The player does not know when or where in the game it will be used, but they demand to have all the information.

As DM, I'd say all Custom Creations are unknown to a player, unless their character gains it somehow in the game. And a lot of them will remain unknown to the players forever. And that players can encounter something in the game, without knowing the full write up of it.

The demand for the 'full write up'' often feels like a cheep optimizer roll player exploit where they just want to ''use the rules to find an exploit or loophole''. It also ruins any mystery or surprise as it high lights the ''you will encounter this custom creation soon in the game''. This also has the idea that the player will ''pretend'' like the character does not know all the information the player does. So when the player is given the write up of the Spider Sphere of Doom, and then their character encounters ''a large white sphere with black spider designs '' they will have their character act like they don't know what it is. Sometimes. More often then not though they will ''for no reason'' prepare and counter the effects they know are coming as they read the write up. So they will be like ''oh, my character just casts delay poisons for no reason as soon as they see the sphere, as the player knows it summons spiders.

Most games, or at least most of my games, also use lots of rule books. I only ban a couple of them. So that is a ton of things the players are ''free to look up and know about'' (but not at the table, during a game). But the mass of things hides them and does not highlight them, with like two dozen books and hundreds of magic items, few players can remember even a quarter of them. But when the DM hands you a Custom Creation write up, it's a huge ''easy button''.

3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations? This really comes only from the Hostile Adversarial Roll Players. They want to ''check the DM'' and make sure the DM is following the rules and playing right (in their view). And if they, and the other players, don't like something, they think they should be able to veto it.

I would never allow this, and would not even game with such a person.

4.How much Custom Creations is too much?

Some players complain that ''we are all playing the same game'' or some nonsense like that, and that means everything in the game must be known to all and by the book. They want to play only the boring, by the book game. Over and over and over and over again. So they say Custom Creations should be ''rare''.

Sadly, lots of otherwise good players also think this...for reasons few can explain..other then the exploiting the rules or such.

And ''rare'' can be ''a couple''(like three?) a game to ''once in a while''(like only one every 2-3 games).

As DM, I think any amount is great and fine. I don't think I've ever done a ''100%'' game, but I've done like ''a goblin wizard with all Custom Spells''.

So, how does everyone else do it?

Ha. No to this crap. I run 1st edition adnd and it is my game you are my guest. No metagaming allowed, so quoting rules is considered metagame. So it reading about the rules, monster manuals and all that. They can take a hike if they don't like it which is the power they have. No to players approving BS. I am not running an acting troupe or narrative ego-stroking circle jerk.

Creating custom spells requires appropriate: character level, a base of operations for a lab to experiment in (with equipment), money, lots of tomes, perhaps access to a sage, perhaps dealing with extra-planar creatures, lots of time, etc.

Also, just because some book, dragon/dungeon magazine or setting had a spell, doesn't make it appear in my world for magic-users to get. There is a limited list of spells they can get a chance to know baring "specials".

Items: They are numbered: You get 20 magic arrows, you receive, for example: Missile#101 which I have the documentation for and a count of expendables and how many have been used. I don't give them a sheet detailing the details. Even if a magic sword tells the player what it can do I don't. Because that might be true and it might not know what it can do, etc. There are spells such as Identify for trying to figure things out.

As to the rules, my game certainly is not 100% by the rules. Take UA, don't use it except for a few spells and such. No barbarians! Also, the xp gain for gold and magic items is tossed out the window! Mages have to find spells or research them rather than pick in roll beyond the starting spells. I am generous with scrolls and potions though. I don't like NWP, but for different reasons than you might think...

Sounds to me like these players are trying to control you. If you like being submissive like that go for it.

[Tinkerer]

5. The first time you see a member of a humanoid race, I will describe it as a “vaguely man-shaped creature.” This could be a kobold, an elf, or an Umber Hulk until you learn what they are.

This one I do take considerable umbrage with however. There is a world of difference between a kobold and an Umber Hulk, one is considerably easier to suplex than the other. If in an attempt to disguise your customized race you are obfuscating the most basic common sense that the players can have you've gone too far.

[FreddyNoNose]

My only issue with "you know nothing about this world" is that it turns the PCs into people who are unlearned about the world they've lived in their whole life. If these albino-goblin-orcs are a regular problem, it is a little weird for these adventurers and longtime residents of the world to be entirely ignorant of them.

It's one thing to introduce a race with a new description before the reveal, but if I'm an elf, I should immediately recognize another elf, no matter how unique the setting.

My problem with that argument, is that those players who use it are often justifying encyclopedic knowledge of the books. And somehow it is perfect knowledge. They know how to kill a troll. Time to throw a troll with has rust monster effects when metal touches their skin. Consider it a game with a reset and you are starting to learn.

Back in the 70s, I would invite people to play and tell them all they need is pencil and paper. Some would rush out and buy all the books and learn as much as they can. Others would just show up. The ones who enjoyed it the most were those who didn't rush out and learn it all. They had the sense of mystery and enjoyment. They others would metagame and guess hit points and such and often didn't like anything that wasn't in the books. I still believe it.

Then again, if a player can't deal with it, they can take a hike.

[Tinkerer]

My problem with that argument, is that those players who use it are often justifying encyclopedic knowledge of the books. And somehow it is perfect knowledge. They know how to kill a troll. Time to throw a troll with has rust monster effects when metal touches their skin. Consider it a game with a reset and you are starting to learn.

Back in the 70s, I would invite people to play and tell them all they need is pencil and paper. Some would rush out and buy all the books and learn as much as they can. Others would just show up. The ones who enjoyed it the most were those who didn't rush out and learn it all. They had the sense of mystery and enjoyment. They others would metagame and guess hit points and such and often didn't like anything that wasn't in the books. I still believe it.

Then again, if a player can't deal with it, they can take a hike.

It really depends on how common trolls are in this environment. If trolls are a common threat in the kingdom then it would be quite ridiculous to say that no one knows how to combat them. If that troll has rusting skin then there should be a good reason why they have rusting skin. And that is quite odd for me to say considering how often I'm on the other side of this argument.

Now I'm rather spoiled in this regard as I am currently running a group through a world where they have no experience whatsoever (oh Rifts, you so crazy) and thus they view every new creature with a suspicious eye. But even then I had them establish where they were from and I gave them each a top 10 list of monsters from the area where they grew up. The list included a short breakdown of the monsters known abilities and weaknesses from a rural point of view. And I use the 25 or so monsters from their lists (there was of course overlap between lists) constantly to try and establish the world around them. Otherwise it turns into a monster of the week show.

[ImNotTrevor]

My problem with that argument, is that those players who use it are often justifying encyclopedic knowledge of the books. And somehow it is perfect knowledge. They know how to kill a troll. Time to throw a troll with has rust monster effects when metal touches their skin. Consider it a game with a reset and you are starting to learn.

Back in the 70s, I would invite people to play and tell them all they need is pencil and paper. Some would rush out and buy all the books and learn as much as they can. Others would just show up. The ones who enjoyed it the most were those who didn't rush out and learn it all. They had the sense of mystery and enjoyment. They others would metagame and guess hit points and such and often didn't like anything that wasn't in the books. I still believe it.

Then again, if a player can't deal with it, they can take a hike.

This stance doesn't fix the incongruity of residents of a world knowing nothing about it.

It would be as strange as a story about suburban teenagers where they've never seen a schoolbus or end up in a zoo totally flabbergasted by all the strange, unknown creatures they've never seen before. (Assuming, obviously, they really are just elephants and usual zoo life)

You can have your cake and eat it too, on this one. Feel free to make up a new thing. But if my character would logically know about such a thing, don't tell me he's one of only 5 idiots who has never seen [insert really common critter here] before. Then I'll just retaliate by constantly asking if I know what really basic, stupid, obvious things like tables and chairs are since I'm obviously the most ignorant moron in the game world.

Yes. I'm petty.

[Darth Ultron]

My only issue with "you know nothing about this world" is that it turns the PCs into people who are unlearned about the world they've lived in their whole life. If these albino-goblin-orcs are a regular problem, it is a little weird for these adventurers and longtime residents of the world to be entirely ignorant of them.

It's one thing to introduce a race with a new description before the reveal, but if I'm an elf, I should immediately recognize another elf, no matter how unique the setting.

Well, I like the more ''the characters know nothing'' myself. I want player and character knowledge to come from game play. Too many players don't want to just 'know' about the setting: they want to be super experts on the setting. And they use their knowledge to prevent the adventure, encounters or any type of experience from happening. So their character just walks around.

A good half the point of Custom Creations is to add mystery and wonder back into the game. Like the first time a new player encounters say a Rust Monster is priceless...a memory that they will remember forever. But you only get it once. Playing the game for even a short while and you will encounter and know all the common, iconic things in the game..again and again and again. And the ''sigh, whatever I do X to defeat or over come Y...again'' gets very boring.

But, on the other hand, ''knowing common stuff'' is a bit pointless. So I let players know this type of stuff no problem. It often does not matter. The players can read the handout 100 times were it says ''the Ice Elves of Northwatch are a good, honorable and noble race of elves''. They will still murderhobo every elf they meet to get more experience and loot. And even if they get to meet the Ice Elf King, they won't even try to role play like good, honorable and noble royal guests...they are going to act like five year olds no matter what.

And it does get crazy with the 'old' stuff the players ''think'' they know. Like a couple weeks ago I had a PC group that was being escorted through some woods by some elves. At night the elves cut down a tree to make a fire. Two players really flipped out over this demanding that ''elves would never, ever cut down a live tree''. In their interpretation of elves, they think they would never do that. They agreed that elves can hunt for food, but can't cut down trees....

[BWR]

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates?
No, not automatic. If the custom rules are intended to augment or replace existing stuff PCs get automatic access to, then yes. Custom monsters, spells, classes or whatever that opponents might have are not shared if the PCs have no reason to know of them.

2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations
Not always, no. If the players have a good reason to need a full write up, they will get it. When I introduced a custom Force system to SWd20R, obviously my players had full insight for their Jedi characters. If PCs meet something the players will not have an opportunity to read up on them. I will often let players in on the details once the new Thing is gone for good, because players like to know those sorts of things.

3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations?
I do listen to input they may have. If any objections are strenuous and well founded, I may alter or remove what I have put in. Fortunately I don't have to worry (much) about players whining about things being unfair unless I actually have screwed up somewhere.

4.How much Custom Creations is too much?
How high is too high? I'm an incurable rules tinkerer and house ruler, and to a lesser extent homebrewer. I try to limit what new stuff I introduce because the games I run usually have enough stuff in them and we generally don't miss it. I'd say the real limit depends on custom stuff depends on who is using it. On communal stuff, basically any new mechanics that is freely available to the players, the limit is when the players start to feel that it is too much. On stuff I use as a GM, the limit is when I feel it's getting out of hand. The exact limits depends on the game, really.

[Sajiri]

For 1. and 2. at least in my group, we only get to know what we need to know. Sometimes the custom creations are a plot device, and will be learned about through research or exploration in the game. We don't automatically get or give access to all custom creations, but if we do then we can know more about it. Unless it's specifically meant to be mysterious, we only get a full writeup IF we are given access to it with own characters. If it doesnt make sense for our character to know how it works, then we dont know about it (with that said we play in very RP focused games, so maybe it would be different if the focus is more on mechanics)

3. Regardless of who's DMing, we can come up with whatever we want and request whatever we want, but it's up to the DM to approve it. Usually, whoever's DMing will try to be generous and find a way to work in whatever the player wants, but player has to accept it may be tweaked for balance reasons or to just fit into the setting better.

4. When it gets to the point that its ruining the game or making it stressful, then its too much. If you like custom stuff and everyone can handle it without getting confused, then I see no reason not to use it. If people are struggling to keep track of changes and things not in the book, then maybe it's time to limit things to the book a bit more.

[Jay R]

My only issue with "you know nothing about this world" is that it turns the PCs into people who are unlearned about the world they've lived in their whole life.

Actually, I did that by having them all grow up in an isolated village. The introduction to the campaign also said,

"You will begin as first level characters with very little knowledge of the outside world. Your character is just barely adult – 14 years old. You all know each other well, having grown up in the same tiny village. Everyone in this village grows their own food, and it’s rare to see anybody from outside the village, or anything not made in the village. There is a smith, a village priest, but very few other specialists.

You are friends, even if you choose to have very different outlooks, because almost everybody else in the village, and absolutely everyone else anywhere near your age, are dull villagers, with little imagination.

By contrast, you and your friends sometimes stare down the road, or into the forest, wondering what the world is like.
...
I will answer any reasonable questions about the village and its denizens. You do not know anything that cannot be learned in a backward, isolated village. (And yes, that’s why you’ve grown up semi-isolated.)"

If these albino-goblin-orcs are a regular problem, it is a little weird for these adventurers and longtime residents of the world to be entirely ignorant of them.

The universe has periods of relative peace, when most fantasy creatures don't exist, followed by an Age of Heroes, in which holes start letting in various thing from other planes. The PCs are at the beginning of the latest Age of Heroes. These goblins had not been in the world before in the last 200 years, and the player characters all came from an isolated village.

It's one thing to introduce a race with a new description before the reveal, but if I'm an elf, I should immediately recognize another elf, no matter how unique the setting.

That's right. That's one reason the PCs are all human.

[ImNotTrevor]

Actually, I did that by having them all grow up in an isolated village. The introduction to the campaign also said,

"You will begin as first level characters with very little knowledge of the outside world. Your character is just barely adult – 14 years old. You all know each other well, having grown up in the same tiny village. Everyone in this village grows their own food, and it’s rare to see anybody from outside the village, or anything not made in the village. There is a smith, a village priest, but very few other specialists.

You are friends, even if you choose to have very different outlooks, because almost everybody else in the village, and absolutely everyone else anywhere near your age, are dull villagers, with little imagination.

By contrast, you and your friends sometimes stare down the road, or into the forest, wondering what the world is like.
...
I will answer any reasonable questions about the village and its denizens. You do not know anything that cannot be learned in a backward, isolated village. (And yes, that’s why you’ve grown up semi-isolated.)"

The universe has periods of relative peace, when most fantasy creatures don't exist, followed by an Age of Heroes, in which holes start letting in various thing from other planes. The PCs are at the beginning of the latest Age of Heroes. These goblins had not been in the world before in the last 200 years, and the player characters all came from an isolated village.



That's right. That's one reason the PCs are all human.

This seems like a lot of unnecessary effort to get around metagaming compared to like... highlighting the few differences and letting the PCs be competent as opposed to being literal children thrust into the world with inexplicable training in things. (Unless they started at lvl 0, which they didn't. You don't just wake up as a fighter at 14.)

It just sounds.... needlessly contrived to do what you want.

[SirBellias]

1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No. There can't be too much, provided everyone rolls with it and has fun.

I don't have time to write stat blocks for everything. I seldom do. Now, I usually try to throw things together based on stat blocks in the monster manual, and don't change anything after combat starts, and let the players exploit the less obtuse holes in the rules (we're doing a 3.5 campaign for once and love to poke holes in things). Because that's just funny.

My players trust me to make the world in a fairly reasonable way, and I try to keep that up. Sometimes you gotta make stuff up. A lot of times it's more fun that way. I am more than willing to make up new rules for them if they want their characters to progress in specific ways (as it is usually much harder to find something that works mechanically similar to what they wanted). They get their custom class abilities and I get my custom monsters and abilities.

Now, I have asked to play a home brew class in a game I wasn't running where some rules were being horribly misinterpreted in favor of one character (not understanding subsystems is... strange to me), and now feel really silly for not trusting the DM to balance things out. Especially since no one else was using a home brew class (just misunderstanding the Tome of Battle). So I don't agree with that sort of intrusion, even though I instigated it? I guess that comes form me running too many games and not playing enough to trust others to know what they are doing.

Also, Gelatinous Cubes can get entangled. As far as I can tell. That was an interesting session.

[Jay R]

This one I do take considerable umbrage with however. There is a world of difference between a kobold and an Umber Hulk, one is considerably easier to suplex than the other. If in an attempt to disguise your customized race you are obfuscating the most basic common sense that the players can have you've gone too far.

I'm not an idiot. If they see them in sunlight, of course they could tell the big one from the little one, and would get clearer descriptions. But in a dungeon, are those shadowy shapes four feet tall and forty feet away, or eight feet tall and eighty feet away? And how much detail about the shape of a mouth would you expect? The introduction isn't a hard and fast rule; it's a deliberately worst case scenario intended to make clear to the players that they won't automatically identify everything at once.

None of my players complained about this rule, or about how I ran the game.

This seems like a lot of unnecessary effort to get around metagaming ...

Agreed. But since I never said that the goal was to "get around metagaming," and the goal in fact was not to "get around metagaming," this guess about my motives is irrelevant.

The goal was to provide a world of mystery and the unknown, and allow the old-school experience of learning about the world. All my players enjoyed it, and although it ended two years ago, I've gotten requests to continue it as recently as last week.

You're the second person to voice disapprove of a game about which you know very little, while all the people who played it seemed to approve.

... compared to like... highlighting the few differences and letting the PCs be competent as opposed to being literal children thrust into the world with inexplicable training in things.

I actually considered these issues. The introduction included a lot of things that had nothing to do with the topic of custom creations, and so I didn't discuss it above. For instance:

Your character is way behind the average starting D&D character in knowledge of the world. I am making up for that by giving each PC one 3E Feat (see below), and one unusual starting item you would normally not have at the start of a game. This item must be justified by the character, and must be acceptable to me. For instance, a Wizard could start the game with a familiar. A Bard could have a well-made harp. Somebody with Animal Training could have a trained dog already (but not a horse or bird of prey.) A fighter might have a boomerang as one weapon. Come up with something fun, useful, and unusual, but not outrageous. It won’t be a magic item, but it could be something rare. [It is not armor. Your village can produce leather, studded leather, brigandine, or scale armor, but not chain or plate.]
...
I repeat – ask for exceptions to these rules. I want you to play what you want, and to have an unusual character. For instance, if you have a character idea that can’t work if you grew up in a small village, talk to me, and we’ll try to make it fit in – but it might mean that you miss the first half of the first adventure. If you have some cool idea for something your character wants to start off with, let’s discuss it. I might say no, or have it replace the Feat or the unusual item, or just grant the exception.

(Unless they started at lvl 0, which they didn't. You don't just wake up as a fighter at 14.)

What's the point of making up nonsense about something when you don't have complete information?

When you live surrounded by a haunted forest, you don't just wake up as a fighter; it's one of the things you learn. In fact, the introduction included the following:

It will be possible for your character to get started within the village, so if you wish to be, for instance, a druid, there will be an older druid of some sort nearby. Tell me your plans, and I will arrange any necessary mentor or other resource.
...
You grew up in a small village surrounded by an unexplored forest. There are wild animals and worse in the forest, and you have trained with at least one simple weapon. For this reason, your character can use your choice of a spear, short bow or short sword, regardless of character class. (You must choose one. Your character cannot use more than one of them unless both are allowed to his or her class.)

It just sounds.... needlessly contrived to do what you want.

Well, first of all, you don't know all that I want, or all that I gave them, or all that I did. You have read a few excerpts from a 4-page document, chosen only to show the point of custom creations. But you didn't assume that you don't have full knowledge of the world; instead, you assumed that anything you don't know about must have been stupid. This assumption is unfair, unjustified, and false-to-fact.

[ImNotTrevor]

I'm not an idiot. If they see them in sunlight, of course they could tell the big one from the little one, and would get clearer descriptions. But in a dungeon, are those shadowy shapes four feet tall and forty feet away, or eight feet tall and eighty feet away? And how much detail about the shape of a mouth would you expect? The introduction isn't a hard and fast rule; it's a deliberately worst case scenario intended to make clear to the players that they won't automatically identify everything at once.

None of my players complained about this rule, or about how I ran the game.



Agreed. But since I never said that the goal was to "get around metagaming," and the goal in fact was not to "get around metagaming," this guess about my motives is irrelevant.

The goal was to provide a world of mystery and the unknown, and allow the old-school experience of learning about the world. All my players enjoyed it, and although it ended two years ago, I've gotten requests to continue it as recently as last week.

You're the second person to voice disapprove of a game about which you know very little, while all the people who played it seemed to approve.



I actually considered these issues. The introduction included a lot of things that had nothing to do with the topic of custom creations, and so I didn't discuss it above. For instance:

Your character is way behind the average starting D&D character in knowledge of the world. I am making up for that by giving each PC one 3E Feat (see below), and one unusual starting item you would normally not have at the start of a game. This item must be justified by the character, and must be acceptable to me. For instance, a Wizard could start the game with a familiar. A Bard could have a well-made harp. Somebody with Animal Training could have a trained dog already (but not a horse or bird of prey.) A fighter might have a boomerang as one weapon. Come up with something fun, useful, and unusual, but not outrageous. It won’t be a magic item, but it could be something rare. [It is not armor. Your village can produce leather, studded leather, brigandine, or scale armor, but not chain or plate.]
...
I repeat – ask for exceptions to these rules. I want you to play what you want, and to have an unusual character. For instance, if you have a character idea that can’t work if you grew up in a small village, talk to me, and we’ll try to make it fit in – but it might mean that you miss the first half of the first adventure. If you have some cool idea for something your character wants to start off with, let’s discuss it. I might say no, or have it replace the Feat or the unusual item, or just grant the exception.

What's the point of making up nonsense about something when you don't have complete information?

When you live surrounded by a haunted forest, you don't just wake up as a fighter; it's one of the things you learn. In fact, the introduction included the following:

It will be possible for your character to get started within the village, so if you wish to be, for instance, a druid, there will be an older druid of some sort nearby. Tell me your plans, and I will arrange any necessary mentor or other resource.
...
You grew up in a small village surrounded by an unexplored forest. There are wild animals and worse in the forest, and you have trained with at least one simple weapon. For this reason, your character can use your choice of a spear, short bow or short sword, regardless of character class. (You must choose one. Your character cannot use more than one of them unless both are allowed to his or her class.)

Well, first of all, you don't know all that I want, or all that I gave them, or all that I did. You have read a few excerpts from a 4-page document, chosen only to show the point of custom creations. But you didn't assume that you don't have full knowledge of the world; instead, you assumed that anything you don't know about must have been stupid. This assumption is unfair, unjustified, and false-to-fact.

Woah hold on. No need to get testy. I mixed up you and FreddyNoNose. (My kiddo was also distracting me. Life with kids, etc)

No beef here. Do what makes your players happy first and foremost. If they're signed on to knowing nothing about the world, coolio.

I had another reply saying that it would be worth it to prevent metagaming (more or less) and that seemed like a bit much.

TL;DR
I'm an idiot, these comments don't apply to you. I got confused. My bad.

[Jay R]

Woah hold on. No need to get testy. I mixed up you and FreddyNoNose. (My kiddo was also distracting me. Life with kids, etc)

No beef here. Do what makes your players happy first and foremost. If they're signed on to knowing nothing about the world, coolio.

I had another reply saying that it would be worth it to prevent metagaming (more or less) and that seemed like a bit much.

TL;DR
I'm an idiot, these comments don't apply to you. I got confused. My bad.

Cool. We had a misunderstanding, and we worked it out by honestly responding to each other. Based on what you just said, I withdraw my comments. Perfect. That's what internet discussions do at their finest, and it's actually pretty uncommon.

[Guizonde]

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates? This is a weird question for me, but some players(often, but not always the optimizing roll players) think (''demand'') that before the game even starts that the DM must give all the players full write ups of any custom creations.

in my homebrew universe, no, with exceptions. a few are weapons: the "rifle", which has become by tradition THE modular pain-inducing weapon platform of the game. you want a rifle that spews a wall o' bullets? done deal. you want a rifle that is a silenced long-range murder machine? yup, simply not the same options as the first. the rifle is the most random of all our weapons, and yet is one of our starting items. why? because players get attached to their weapons. i've seen so far in 4.5 campaigns 7 different rifles, none which had the exact same loadouts. all were modified from the stock loadout. a few loadouts were modded by subsequent dms, but as long as it looks like an m14 by the end of the day, it's a "rifle".

2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations This is related to question one. A lot of players seem to think that ''the player'' should know everything ''in the rules'', and they define ''the rules'' as ''whatever they want to know at any moment''. So they think the players should be given the full rules write up text of any custom creation, just like it would be in a rule book. The player does not know when or where in the game it will be used, but they demand to have all the information.

bull. the player gets the rules when they survive the campaign, because the player has a chance to become the next dm. until then, it's "try, die, try again". if we knew exactly what tricks the new dm developped, we'd be too close to the creation and balance of our game to make it seem balanced. no, we enjoy the added difficulty, and we love our dm for throwing us curve balls once in a while. i've got great stories about a few of those, too. i just feel i'm too tired to tell them right now without a serious wall of text.

3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations? This really comes only from the Hostile Adversarial Roll Players. They want to ''check the DM'' and make sure the DM is following the rules and playing right (in their view). And if they, and the other players, don't like something, they think they should be able to veto it.

in my universe, the dm adds to the current world. ie, he adds rules, all he does is inject new things into our (otherwise rapidly stale) universe. change is good, unless it concerns tried and true mechanics. if it involves patching bugs, fine (automatic weapons, i'm looking at you). if it involves something we've grown to love and balance in 4 years of play, not so.

4.How much Custom Creations is too much?

changing dice mechanics is too much. that's about it for me, but then again i play in a homebrew from the ground up with 5 heads taking turns adding to the world with their own inspiration. when i think back to 5 years ago, i'd've never dreamt of my idea becoming what canon it has created. i'm thankful for that, because thanks to player and dm input, we've gained about 40% of our current game. were i playing something less solid, it'd be another answer.

hope this helps.

[Earthwalker]

1. Do players automatically get access to every custom thing the DM creates?
2.Do Players all ways get full Rule Write Ups of Custom Creations
3.Do Players get to approve Custom Creations?
4.How much Custom Creations is too much?

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. I will only know it when I see it.

Now all that been said I have some more things to add.
First and most importantly, it’s possible to create mystery in a game without changing a single rule. I don’t think I have played a system where it is impossible not to have mystery. (I mean there might be some systems where the player can create a character whose entire existence is automatically knowing mysteries, if there is I have never played that system)

As with all things where rules are changed, are you sure you are playing the right system. Instead of changing all the rules of the system you are using to create mysteries, is there not a better system to do what you want. If the system has loads of rules that automatically solve the mysteries you are trying to create, use another system.

[ImNotTrevor]

Well, I like the more ''the characters know nothing'' myself. I want player and character knowledge to come from game play. Too many players don't want to just 'know' about the setting: they want to be super experts on the setting. And they use their knowledge to prevent the adventure, encounters or any type of experience from happening. So their character just walks around.

Then don't play with those players. I've never met one of those, ever, in my 15+ years of gaming, with the exception of a few 10-year-olds who found the game too spooky for their liking. (They were fine with adventure once I swapped systems, though.)

A good half the point of Custom Creations is to add mystery and wonder back into the game. Like the first time a new player encounters say a Rust Monster is priceless...a memory that they will remember forever. But you only get it once. Playing the game for even a short while and you will encounter and know all the common, iconic things in the game..again and again and again. And the ''sigh, whatever I do X to defeat or over come Y...again'' gets very boring.

There is a difference between your first time fighting a thing that your character wouldn't know about, and having a dodgy GM not tell you anything about these "vaguely humanoid critters that have been attacking villages since time immemorial."

But, on the other hand, ''knowing common stuff'' is a bit pointless. So I let players know this type of stuff no problem. It often does not matter. The players can read the handout 100 times were it says ''the Ice Elves of Northwatch are a good, honorable and noble race of elves''. They will still murderhobo every elf they meet to get more experience and loot. And even if they get to meet the Ice Elf King, they won't even try to role play like good, honorable and noble royal guests...they are going to act like five year olds no matter what.

Your experience is not the only one. And very rare. I don't know where you're finding players that are literal manchildren, but stop recruiting from there.

And be sure to set expectations. If the expectation is that they won't murderhobo, and they do, just stop everything and address it immediately. If it continues, send everyone home. This won't need to happen more than once or twice before the message os received, even to stupid teenaged boys.

And it does get crazy with the 'old' stuff the players ''think'' they know. Like a couple weeks ago I had a PC group that was being escorted through some woods by some elves. At night the elves cut down a tree to make a fire. Two players really flipped out over this demanding that ''elves would never, ever cut down a live tree''. In their interpretation of elves, they think they would never do that. They agreed that elves can hunt for food, but can't cut down trees....

Congrats. A stereotype was shattered before their very eyes. Turns out elves are more complex beings than they believed. Inform them of such and move on. Or, in a custom setting, you decide anyways.


As I've said before, if I get told that I don't know what an orc is after living in a village that in the backstory (if any) was pillaged by orcs, or I don't know what some other common-pest monsters are at all, without a VERY good reason, I will begin to ask increasingly stupid questions. For example:

Gm: the man leads you into a tavern an-
Me: Do I know what a tavern is?
Gm: Yes. You do. Anyways, he sits you down at a table-
Me: I'm worried by this large wooden disc. Do I know what it is?

Etc. Because denying me perfectly reasonable information is exactly as stupid as if I didn't know what a tavern or a table are.

[Darth Ultron]

Gm: the man leads you into a tavern an-
Me: Do I know what a tavern is?
Gm: Yes. You do. Anyways, he sits you down at a table-
Me: I'm worried by this large wooden disc. Do I know what it is?

Etc. Because denying me perfectly reasonable information is exactly as stupid as if I didn't know what a tavern or a table are.

Well, no that is just silly.

Knowing a bit of common knowledge about a monster is fine, but most players want to go for the crazy exploit and know everything, or worse just the combat stuff. 3E also has the horrible player agency problem where the players demand everything their character knows to be absolute fact.

A character can know a monster is X, but not know the full rules write up and description of the monster.

Though, to the smart player above....my answer would be ''no you don't know what a tavern is, or what a table is, just sit back and relax. We will let you know if you need to roll a dice for something." LOL

[Earthwalker]

Knowing a bit of common knowledge about a monster is fine, but most players want to go for the crazy exploit and know everything, or worse just the combat stuff. 3E also has the horrible player agency problem where the players demand everything their character knows to be absolute fact.
A character can know a monster is X, but not know the full rules write up and description of the monster.

Again I am going back to know the system and choose a system for what works for the game you want to play.

Jay_R said he used 2e for his game, which made sense as 2e didn’t have all the rules for finding out information that 3e does.

In 3e you have knowledge skills for example that if you get a successful result you find useful information about a creature (this is even terms as game information from the stat block) the better you roll the more information you get.

Now this is how the skill works. It appears to me that it’s in the game so players can gain information about monsters and then use said information for the combat minigame. (If I am wrong I apologize I don’t play 3.e and have not in a while)

If I was a 3e player and got invited to a 3e game I would expect to be playing 3e (unless I was told up front what isn’t used) so to be invited to the game but at a later stage told oh I don’t like knowledge skills as I like mystery I would feel cheated.

If you want to play a 2e game, play a 2e game. Don’t advertise 3e and then change it all around.

[ImNotTrevor]

Well, no that is just silly.

Knowing a bit of common knowledge about a monster is fine, but most players want to go for the crazy exploit and know everything, or worse just the combat stuff. 3E also has the horrible player agency problem where the players demand everything their character knows to be absolute fact.

A character can know a monster is X, but not know the full rules write up and description of the monster.

Though, to the smart player above....my answer would be ''no you don't know what a tavern is, or what a table is, just sit back and relax. We will let you know if you need to roll a dice for something." LOL

I would respond to that last bit with "do I know what a dice is?" And my questions would continue. Can't exactly stop me from asking questions.

Also "most" players. Include those quotes there, because your experiences are in the rare minority. As I've said before, the kind of player who demands perfect and ultimate constant knowledge has never graced my table in 15+ years of gaming with many groups. Your potrayal is either wildly exaggerated, or your experiences are highly anomalous.

[Darth Ultron]

Jay_R said he used 2e for his game, which made sense as 2e didn’t have all the rules for finding out information that 3e does.

2E is great and I still use it myself.

And for good players I don't have any problems changing 3E around to make it better and more 2E like.

And for the 'other' players I don't have any problem giving them the lame 3X style ''know all the combatz stuffz about the monster, so they can kill, loot repeat'' again. I really like the later Monster Manuals with the lame Lore in them, and I use them as examples for the lame lore of anything else. And as it's ''the 3X player agency wacky interoperation of the Rules'', players love it and have no complaints. The players get their combat exploits, or so they think, and then they have the ''real fun'' when they encounter the monster.

And the good players that role play, pay attention and otherwise play the game, get tons and tons and tons of more information.

[Earthwalker]

2E is great and I still use it myself.
And for good players I don't have any problems changing 3E around to make it better and more 2E like.
And for the 'other' players I don't have any problem giving them the lame 3X style ''know all the combatz stuffz about the monster, so they can kill, loot repeat'' again. I really like the later Monster Manuals with the lame Lore in them, and I use them as examples for the lame lore of anything else. And as it's ''the 3X player agency wacky interoperation of the Rules'', players love it and have no complaints. The players get their combat exploits, or so they think, and then they have the ''real fun'' when they encounter the monster.
And the good players that role play, pay attention and otherwise play the game, get tons and tons and tons of more information.

Honestly the way this is phrased it seems to be that.

You want to run a 2e style game.
You want to run it with players that like 2e.
You dislike 3e (calling it lame) and the changes it made to how players gain knowledge (with having skills and dice rolls)


Yet for reasons I don’t understand
You run 3e games, with 3e players and expect them to be 2e players. Then call people derogatory terms for thinking that playing a 3e game should be like playing 3e.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Honestly the way this is phrased it seems to be that.

You want to run a 2e style game.
You want to run it with players that like 2e.
You dislike 3e (calling it lame) and the changes it made to how players gain knowledge (with having skills and dice rolls)


Yet for reasons I don’t understand
You run 3e games, with 3e players and expect them to be 2e players. Then call people derogatory terms for thinking that playing a 3e game should be like playing 3e.

I've seen this (with 2e played using 5e rules). There's a saying in the programming world: "You can write FORTRAN in any language." It's not a compliment, either. I find one of the more annoying things a DM can do (to me, at least) is play one game with the mindset of a different one. Different editions of D&D are separate games and even though many things share a legacy, they're different and should play differently. They are conducive to different play styles. What works in one doesn't necessarily work in another. </rant>

On topic:

I use lots of custom things (templates, races, abilities, spells, items) that players may or may not have access to. Not rules per se, but things that use existing rules to new effect. They certainly don't have access to all of them at character creation. Spells are the big thing--there are many spells that can be cast that players don't have access to. In return, PCs can learn a much wider array of spells than NPCs.

Players only get the rule text if they gain access to the custom creation. PC/NPC transparency is absolutely not in force.

I am open to players creating stuff with my buy-in, but don't ask for their permission or sign-off on my custom stuff.

How much is too much? When it feels like you're playing another game. I'm in a custom setting, so almost everything is customized. None of the races' fluff is the same (but the mechanics mostly are because I'm lazy). For example, racial alignment (and alignment in general) doesn't exist. Each goblin may or may not be evil.

[DigoDragon]

The GM in the D&D game I'm playing in seems to hate the published magical weapons and armor in the DMG with a passion. All armor and weapons we get are custom loot we find after battle encounters. He'll let us take the item creation feats if we want to make the "pedestrian" equipment in the DMG, but he fights us if we raise the money to commission a wizard to say, enchant a masterwork chainshirt to become a +1 chainshirt (he's commented that it's a very powerful item and should require questing and role play to get). So basically the GM creates custom armor and weapons for us every time the loot tables rolls up something. We cannot buy or make custom loot, only find it or trade for it at his special "Want it/Need It" shop.

The Want It/Need It shop is run by some kind of goddess. She lets us trade unusual things, like displacer beast tentacles and unicorn scat, for custom creations. We can't specify abilities when we trade. We only can tell her an idea of what we'd like, and then the GM makes something. I recently traded a young green dragon's forearm, asking for something to improve my defense (because I had not had an AC increase since level 1. My character is currently level 7). What the GM gave me was a bear helmet that gives me Scent, Darkvision, +1 Natural Armor, 3/Week Barbarian Rage (but without the AC penalty) and 3/Week Druid's shapechange ability (any medium or large animal only). Uh... sure. I guess it's not as powerful as that +1 chainshirt I wanted, but I'll accept this as a "consolation" prize.

(the amusement comes later when I use this helmet to chew through his encounters like wet paper and he starts complaining that I'm getting OP. Well gee, I wonder why). :3


So yeah, that's how custom creations are handled in our current campaign.