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  1. - Top - End - #151

    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Um, it's called role-playing. If my character isn't good at talking, I shouldn't talk like he's good at talking. And, even if I do, the GM should ignore that, and respond to my statistics, not my player skill.
    But note that even without all sorts of mechanical talking benefits....a character in an RPG can still talk. And you don't need the skill ''come up with a clever idea'' to come up with a clever idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    What are we expected to do here? So far all you've told me is to hang around, and hope I had a light spell handy (for the darkness) and an acid resistance item (since it's a liquid layer of the abyss). Wait until it's late enough that we can all hop into a rope trick, rest for the night and pick new spells, then plane shift home.
    Well, this would be say the second act of an adventure ''get the Orb of Light from the Evil Stronghold''. Like I said, this would really need a whole thread so I can explain everything in minute detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Uhm. Spells have their stated effects without "nope, you don't" counters in place. A fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric group gives the fighter and rogue something to do other than watch the real characters do all the work, and a fighter/rogue/warmage/healer party isn't immediately hosed.

    If you have a hard time thinking up adventures that can't be trivialized with a few well-placed spells, that's my point.
    It's not hard at all.

    The big thing to break is the hostile player reaction of ''well if the DM does X, I will do Y to ''win'' ''.....

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Things fall apart. The center does not hold.

    Things change. People grow. What once was a challenge, like standing up or saying "mama" become easy, then trivial. How can I have sympathy for those in a game of growth that hate growth?
    Says the person unwilling to accept that their playstyle isn't universal and stubbornly clings to their view despite long discussions about how flawed it is. this is not only arrogant and condescending to people who argue against you, its hypocritical. you supposedly start these threads to understand yet when we explain, you don't accept our views and grow to accept that you'll never convince us to be like you, because making people try to be like you then saying their children for being like you is not how humanity or being a good person works. I respond because you ask, its your fault if you do not like or accept the answer and therefore do not grow. The fact that you say such a thing says more about you than it does about us.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Says the person unwilling to accept that their playstyle isn't universal and stubbornly clings to their view despite long discussions about how flawed it is. this is not only arrogant and condescending to people who argue against you, its hypocritical. you supposedly start these threads to understand yet when we explain, you don't accept our views and grow to accept that you'll never convince us to be like you, because making people try to be like you then saying their children for being like you is not how humanity or being a good person works. I respond because you ask, its your fault if you do not like or accept the answer and therefore do not grow. The fact that you say such a thing says more about you than it does about us.
    I don't think anyone has to ditch what they find fun. We can try to understand what other gamers enjoy and why they enjoy it, and have different tastes, without changing what we like or demanding that they change what they like.

    What gets me irked is that these discussions repeatedly start out as "I don't understand, please explain your point of view", and then it seems like the veneer quickly peels off, and one side seems to be saying instead "Why do so many of you refuse to become an elite gamer like me and enjoy the high-skill game style I enjoy?"

    And when I'm feeling irked and insulted and like I'm dealing with condescension... the knives come out.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-08-02 at 12:42 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Either the Lich King has hosers for those spells (which to its eternal cosmic credit the DMG tells you not to do), or the wizard does it anyway. If the Lich King does have those spells, the game goes something like this:

    DM: You approach the fortress of the DREAD LICH KING! The walls ar...
    Wizard: Greater teleport.
    DM: You can't, nya-na-na-na-nya-na.
    DM: The walls are enchanted to be impenetra...
    Wizard: Greater dispel magic.
    Wizard: Disintegrate.
    Wizard: Another greater dispel magic.
    Wizard: Greater teleport.
    Wizard: Irresistible Halt Undead.
    Wizard: Disintegrate.
    Wizard: Another disintegrate.
    Wizard: Another disintegrate.
    DM: Yeah he dies.
    Wizard: Greater teleport.

    And anyway, why does D&D need hosers for those spells? Oh, right, because they're dumb and stupid.



    I mean, I want adventures where one side doesn't automatically defeat the other by applying an iota of common sense. I want epic threats without "I cast Kill God at it" ending said epic threat in one round.

    I want my earth-shattering abominations to require teamwork and tactics to beat, not "Lookit, I won."
    If you haven't been inside the lair before how could you teleport into it? Specially enchanted walls aren't needed. Plus there's the Forbiddance spell which the lich can access by either being a divine caster himself, made a deal to have someone cast it for him, used Wish. Certainly the lich is capable of protecting his lair from being scryed upon as well. How are you preparing so many Disintegrates and Greater Dispel Magic? You do that every day? You will never roll low or even a 1 on the dispel attempt and thus fail? The lich will never make his saving throw against Disintegrate? In 5E he even has Legendary saves and thus autosuceeds on three saving throws a day.

    It is far from an automatic win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post

    Since you're still sticking to "stop giving level 5 adventures" without giving your own spin on what a "level 13" adventure would look like, I think it's safe to assume you're just stirring **** here.
    It's metaphorical.

    It means when the party has access to higher level abilities stop resenting what used to be challenging obstacles no longer are, which I already explained. When the party can teleport regularly don't be so upset they no longer need to deal with three game weeks of traveling encounters going to their quest or back to home base. Design encounters keeping in mind the abilities the party has.

    If you can't stop resenting it. If the increase in power level as characters progress just drives you up the wall in whatever lack of justification bothers you, I can't make you like what you don't like. Play something else then. Admit to yourself your taste is incompatible with a particular game system. That doesn't make the particular game system a horrible game that ruins everything.
    It's just not for you.

    But it still answers the thread topic.
    Last edited by Pex; 2017-08-02 at 01:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    A lich king whose defenses can be entirely trivialized by published* spells is an idiot. He deserves his defeat.

    But what did that have to do with win buttons?
    A lich king whose defences can be entirely trivialised by published spells is a lich king.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    If you haven't been inside the lair before how could you teleport into it? Specially enchanted walls aren't needed. Plus there's the Forbiddance spell which the lich can access by either being a divine caster himself, made a deal to have someone cast it for him, used Wish. Certainly the lich is capable of protecting his lair from being scryed upon as well. How are you preparing so many Disintegrates and Greater Dispel Magic? You do that every day? You will never roll low or even a 1 on the dispel attempt and thus fail? The lich will never make his saving throw against Disintegrate? In 5E he even has Legendary saves and thus autosuceeds on three saving throws a day.

    It is far from an automatic win.
    "In addition, you need not have seen the destination". And if the lich is wishing for a spell you can just dispel then something's already gone wrong. The reason I use multiple disintegrates is taking into account that he might save. In 5E everything is different and a lot of the stuff that's an "I win button" stops being.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Why didn't the lich king use the same spells on the party earlier? Or just Greater Teleport away as soon as somebody entered his lair - possibly with a contingency spell? You're assuming that powerful magic only exists on one side. By definition, no spell equally available to both sides can make the encounter one-sided and trivial.

    There is a conversation from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince:
    "But for heaven's sake-- you're wizards! You can do magic! Surely you can sort out -- well--anything!"

    Scrimgeour turned slowly on the spot and exchanged an incredulous look with Fudge, who really did manage a smile this time as he said kindly, "The trouble is, the other side can do magic too, Prime Minister."

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Why didn't the lich king use the same spells on the party earlier? Or just Greater Teleport away as soon as somebody entered his lair - possibly with a contingency spell? You're assuming that powerful magic only exists on one side. By definition, no spell equally available to both sides can make the encounter one-sided and trivial.
    Which really doesn't change the whole "who can get the last 5d chess move in and nail the other guy with something he didn't Batman-prep for" problem.

    ("Batman-prep", as in the ridiculous way in which Batman as depicted hanging with demigods and world-splitters in his JLA appearances ALWAYS was prepared for WHATEVER happened and ALWAYS had a hidden counter up his sleeve because he ALWAYS had already out-thought his opponents, expecting their moves before they even knew that they wanted to make moves against Batman. Because he's Batman. )

    If that's really what people find fun in their RPGs, then more power to them (in more ways than one I guess), but it's certainly not what many others (including me) want, and I think I'm not alone in resenting and rejecting the outright assertion by a few posters that "5d chess counter-counter-counter-spells" is somehow "grownup RPGs for people who've learned how to play" or that accomplishment at such a style is a single-axis progression with "newb" at one end and "elite gamer" at the other.

    Even with D&D 3.x and its kin, that style of play was never the design intent for ANY character level -- it's purely an unforeseen emergent property of the complexity and lack of forethought by the designers and publishers. That doesn't make it badwrongfun, but it does make the "git gud, learn 2 play newb" condescension even more ridiculous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    There is a conversation from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince:
    That conversation was already referenced upthread.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-08-02 at 03:32 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #158

    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Why didn't the lich king use the same spells on the party earlier? Or just Greater Teleport away as soon as somebody entered his lair - possibly with a contingency spell? You're assuming that powerful magic only exists on one side. By definition, no spell equally available to both sides can make the encounter one-sided and trivial.

    There is a conversation from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince:
    This isn't an answer. This is an additional problem.

    In addition to these spells potentially making the game too easy, it also either makes the setting nonsense because the PCs are the only ones taking advantage of these tactics. Or the game ends because the lich king saw some upstart adventurers making problems for him and teleported on top of them and killed them all at an inopportune moment.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    This isn't an answer. This is an additional problem.

    In addition to these spells potentially making the game too easy, it also either makes the setting nonsense because the PCs are the only ones taking advantage of these tactics. Or the game ends because the lich king saw some upstart adventurers making problems for him and teleported on top of them and killed them all at an inopportune moment.
    Indeed... if the PCs can "scry and die" the lich king... why can't the lich king "scry and die" the PCs, or anyone else rising up as a potential threat?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Indeed... if the PCs can "scry and die" the lich king... why can't the lich king "scry and die" the PCs, or anyone else rising up as a potential threat?
    Not to mention using divination spell craziness to figure out that the PCs would be a threat to him back when they were level 6ish.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    The other thing about 5 dimensional chess is that, when you get to the end, it's boring. Like, really boring.

    "We teleport in"
    "The Lich blocked teleports"
    "We Disintegrate the walls"
    "Walls are enchanted"
    "We Dispel Magic"
    "Conditional instant-resetting Counterspell trap stops your Dispell magic"
    Repeat for tactic and countertactic until the Player is out of moves.
    "Okay GM, you've done your homework. Well done. NOW we storm the Lich's fortress and try to fight him."
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The other thing about 5 dimensional chess is that, when you get to the end, it's boring. Like, really boring.

    "We teleport in"
    "The Lich blocked teleports"
    "We Disintegrate the walls"
    "Walls are enchanted"
    "We Dispel Magic"
    "Conditional instant-resetting Counterspell trap stops your Dispell magic"
    Repeat for tactic and countertactic until the Player is out of moves.
    "Okay GM, you've done your homework. Well done. NOW we storm the Lich's fortress and try to fight him."
    And all that immense power on both sides amounts to nothing, and the GM has no choice but to drop the "Actually, Nope" brick on their cool tricks over and over again... or just let them win.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Question about 3.0/5/P, what would you, anyone reading this, say is the highest level (in terms of actual power level, not character level) published adventure? Does it play 5d chess? Require many of these spells? Or let having these spells be an advantage without being a game breaker? In short, are there and official materials that deal with the fallout of these win buttons?

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    Question about 3.0/5/P, what would you, anyone reading this, say is the highest level (in terms of actual power level, not character level) published adventure? Does it play 5d chess? Require many of these spells? Or let having these spells be an advantage without being a game breaker? In short, are there and official materials that deal with the fallout of these win buttons?
    In terms of power level, the Tomb of Horrors has a 3.5 update. It's the worst module ever written precisely because it's full of "The players lose" buttons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Some technically don't kill you outright, only deal enough damage to kill you, maybe allowing a reflex save to be only severely injured instead. The mouth of no-you-just-die is alive and well, though, as are the arrow traps which don't stop firing at you until you disable them and then dispel magic on them and there's no indication that this is the correct course of action. If you're playing the Tomb of Horrors, you're not playing a game. You're rolling dice at people until they stop moving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Oh, there's also the pillar which isn't trapped, so the not!trap can't be found, but what it does do is split the person off from the rest of the party and force them to solo an EL 10 encounter (at ECL 9) to escape, and all the enemies are massively under-CRed, and the pillar which takes all your equipment and throws you out of the devil face of instakill, but fortunately turns it off for just long enough to chuck you out safely. Oh, and even the treasure tries to kill you: there's a gem which deals two hundred damage and throws a twisted wish at the user, and everyone else nearby, and the crown which stops you leaving the room it's in. There is a way to take the crown off, but guess what? That forces you to make a completely uninformed choice and if you get it wrong, it tries to kill you as well. But don't worry, because there's a broken staff, and even though it's already broken, guess what it does? It tries to freaking kill you, because even the broken treasure is trying to kill you.

    Oh, and the treasure you get at the end of the module? Guess what that tries to do.
    It doesn't play 5d chess. It just kills the players for daring to exist.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, I often see posters complaining about "win buttons" - things that just work, and solve problems. Like how Invisibility says you just can't be seen, Flight says you can just bypass any obstacle, or the classic D&D Knock spell lets you just open any door, no skill roll, no risk.

    Yes, these things just work. So what? Many - heck, most - games are based on abilities that just work. When the knight moves into the same space as the opposing pawn, it just captures the piece. When I set fire to the obsidian "O", it just turns into a portal. When I pass "Go", I just collect $200. Why do RPG players seen so loath to accept the concept of things that just work?

    EDIT
    Yes, this is the Playground, home of the Playgrounder Fallacy. And, yes, all of the abilities I listed are available in D&D 3e. But I hadn't actually intended to limit this to a 3e discussion.

    Reasons I understand so far:
    • Inaccuracy - some "win" buttons shouldn't actually automatically succeed
    • exacerbates problems of what is in character vs what makes for a fun game
    • potentially jarring shift in granularity / level of abstraction*
    • may exacerbate problems from differences in opinion on correct level of granularity / what is "important".


    Reasons why win buttons get a (potentially-undeserved) bad rap:
    • Association with unbalanced characters in unbalanced games
    • system / setting disconnect
    • different people using different definitions of the phrase


    * I personally feel that, like Indiana Jones shooting the master swordsman, this is a good thing, but I can see why others might not feel that way.
    I think some are fine, some not. For example, a short duration fly spell - perfectly fine. Teleporting - not fine, and best removed from the PC spell list imo. Such I win options need to be a limited resource, and properly accounted for in class balance. Ideally, every class should have a bit of this spread around in different niches. Of course some classes will have more utility than others. Where exactly the balance lies between classes/utility/etc is a spectrum that reasonable people will disagree on.

    I personally have no issues with stuff like: fly, knock, wizard lock, silence, charm person, line of sight dim door, that sort of thing. As long as they are short duration and limited resource with an opportunity cost.

    Even with such limitations however I consider the following go too far, and are best removed as standard PC options (but perhaps possible as plot devices etc instead): detect lies, know alignment, teleport, plane shift, word of recall, raise dead (or similar), wish. Quite possibly scrying should also go, but if you remove teleport, it isnt so bad. Actually I prefer to simply cap the game at 10th - 12th level altogether.
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Which really doesn't change the whole "who can get the last 5d chess move in and nail the other guy with something he didn't Batman-prep for" problem.

    ("Batman-prep", as in the ridiculous way in which Batman as depicted hanging with demigods and world-splitters in his JLA appearances ALWAYS was prepared for WHATEVER happened and ALWAYS had a hidden counter up his sleeve because he ALWAYS had already out-thought his opponents, expecting their moves before they even knew that they wanted to make moves against Batman. Because he's Batman. )

    If that's really what people find fun in their RPGs, then more power to them (in more ways than one I guess), but it's certainly not what many others (including me) want, and I think I'm not alone in resenting and rejecting the outright assertion by a few posters that "5d chess counter-counter-counter-spells" is somehow "grownup RPGs for people who've learned how to play" or that accomplishment at such a style is a single-axis progression with "newb" at one end and "elite gamer" at the other.

    Even with D&D 3.x and its kin, that style of play was never the design intent for ANY character level -- it's purely an unforeseen emergent property of the complexity and lack of forethought by the designers and publishers. That doesn't make it badwrongfun, but it does make the "git gud, learn 2 play newb" condescension even more ridiculous.
    Of course that's ridiculous, but that's not what happens in actual play. That only happens in 3E bashing threads using the Tier System as justification which I have argued against in the past. Spellcasters do not always have the exact spell needed at the moment it's needed. They do not always beat spell resistance. Monsters do not always fail saving throws. Spellcasters do not autowin everything and anything all the time every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Do you realize how condescending this comes across?

    Taken at face value, that post is nothing more or less than calling anyone who doesn't "progress" to the sort of hardcore-gamist, spell-counterspell, 5d board game, "Dwarf-Fortress fun" gaming that you personally enjoy... an RPG infant.

    It absolutely comes across as "when are you going to leave behind the diapers and training wheels, and git gud?"


    And then (it seems) you wonder why you can't get any traction for your ideas?
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    I don't think anyone has to ditch what they find fun. We can try to understand what other gamers enjoy and why they enjoy it, and have different tastes, without changing what we like or demanding that they change what they like.

    What gets me irked is that these discussions repeatedly start out as "I don't understand, please explain your point of view", and then it seems like the veneer quickly peels off, and one side seems to be saying instead "Why do so many of you refuse to become an elite gamer like me and enjoy the high-skill game style I enjoy?"

    And when I'm feeling irked and insulted and like I'm dealing with condescension... the knives come out.
    Yes, I'm a ****. I freely admit that. I'm... trying to play nice, and I am brutally genuinely trying to understand.

    But, even when I'm trying to understand, I'll still attack any argument that doesn't actually prove what it sets out to prove - or any that I can't follow.

    Thank you for supporting my stance that what I find fun is what I find fun. I'm not surprised that you get it, but I'm glad that you get it, and that you will say so, even when calling me out on being a ****.

    As to the rest... Sometimes, like in this thread, I genuinely am asking why people don't enjoy what I enjoy, so that I can use that knowledge - to avoid problems in games, to build characters that are more acceptable to gamers in general or to the specific group I'm playing with, or even in game design, should I ever go that route.

    And I wasn't intending to be the level / type of condescending you perceived - I was more saying the equivalent of, if the game has the power disparity of, say, level 1 vs level 20 of D&D, a level 1 challenge is not a level 20 challenge. Win buttons seem an obvious "I am too tall for this ride" to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    But note that even without all sorts of mechanical talking benefits....a character in an RPG can still talk. And you don't need the skill ''come up with a clever idea'' to come up with a clever idea.
    Strongly agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Says the person unwilling to accept that their playstyle isn't universal and stubbornly clings to their view despite long discussions about how flawed it is. this is not only arrogant and condescending to people who argue against you, its hypocritical. you supposedly start these threads to understand yet when we explain, you don't accept our views and grow to accept that you'll never convince us to be like you, because making people try to be like you then saying their children for being like you is not how humanity or being a good person works. I respond because you ask, its your fault if you do not like or accept the answer and therefore do not grow. The fact that you say such a thing says more about you than it does about us.
    Hmmm... I am stubborn, and I am a ****, but I still feel this isn't an accurate portrayal of what I am attempting to accomplish.

    Yes, I will point out anything that I feel is a logic error, or a leap in logic that feels like it's missing some steps, or a false conclusion complete with what conclusion I reach given the same information. Now, yes, I could do so more diplomatically, and I could do a better job, say, differentiating between "false conclusions" and "not the only possible conclusion".

    But I don't feel that my play style is universal - if I did, I wouldn't be making a thread like this. I am explicitly exploring the differences in gaming style. I'm just being a **** about it, and not accepting anything that doesn't either make sense to me based on my experiences, or make sense to me by being explained it in a way that I can understand. I'm a tough audience.

    And, even when I do understand things that are new, that doesn't mean that I will consider them fun, for me, or achieve my goals in an RPG.

    And I'm not always right. Which makes perceiving this pattern more difficult.

    If you carry misperceptions as to my intentions, it should come as no surprise if you have difficulty persuading me of anything. It is difficult to convince someone that they are "wrong" when the position you are arguing against bears little similarity to the position that they actually hold.

    And, if I were actually trying to convince you to play like me, that would be good advice for me. But I'm not. I'm trying to understand the diversity in the (gaming) world. And I'm amazed at just how diverse the answers to even this "simple" question have been.

    EDIT: and I've come from understanding 0 reasons to hate win buttons to, what, four so far?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2017-08-02 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    EDIT: and I've come from understanding 0 reasons to hate win buttons to, what, four so far?
    I think I'll stick with my 'perceived fairness' idea where having certain types of abilities is somehow unfair to the DM, other players, or something. It's also mostly a D&D phenomenon and mainly focused on wizard spells. Because I've never seen this sort of discussion with other game systems or even really other D&D casters from outside of core.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I think I'll stick with my 'perceived fairness' idea where having certain types of abilities is somehow unfair to the DM, other players, or something. It's also mostly a D&D phenomenon and mainly focused on wizard spells. Because I've never seen this sort of discussion with other game systems or even really other D&D casters from outside of core.
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psikerlord View Post
    I think some are fine, some not. For example, a short duration fly spell - perfectly fine. Teleporting - not fine, and best removed from the PC spell list imo. Such I win options need to be a limited resource, and properly accounted for in class balance. Ideally, every class should have a bit of this spread around in different niches. Of course some classes will have more utility than others. Where exactly the balance lies between classes/utility/etc is a spectrum that reasonable people will disagree on.

    I personally have no issues with stuff like: fly, knock, wizard lock, silence, charm person, line of sight dim door, that sort of thing. As long as they are short duration and limited resource with an opportunity cost.

    Even with such limitations however I consider the following go too far, and are best removed as standard PC options (but perhaps possible as plot devices etc instead): detect lies, know alignment, teleport, plane shift, word of recall, raise dead (or similar), wish. Quite possibly scrying should also go, but if you remove teleport, it isnt so bad. Actually I prefer to simply cap the game at 10th - 12th level altogether.
    While that may be a great answer for "what", it fails to address the "why" I was seeking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I think I'll stick with my 'perceived fairness' idea where having certain types of abilities is somehow unfair to the DM, other players, or something. It's also mostly a D&D phenomenon and mainly focused on wizard spells. Because I've never seen this sort of discussion with other game systems or even really other D&D casters from outside of core.
    I've seen it numerous times in various systems - some of them homebrew. Usually, IME, when we bothered to dig deep enough, it was misplaced aggression, and what they were really upset about was something else entirely. Which is why I was surprised to discover that the hate of win buttons had survived the scrutiny of the internet - I didn't really believe it could actually be a real thing.

    But, sure enough, people seem to have lots of different reasons for hating win buttons, several of which I've come to understand as legitimate grievances against win buttons themselves, not just using win buttons as a scape goat for some other complaint.

    "Perception", to my mind, while amazingly powerful, seems the least legitimate reason possible to hate on something. I won't deny that I understand this concept, but I am loathe to categorize it as anything other than "reasons it may be unfairly targeted" (or whatever I named that category).

    That there is also truth to that perception, insofar as, say, balance between classes in 3e is concerned, muddies the waters further.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    While that may be a great answer for "what", it fails to address the "why" I was seeking.
    For me, why I dislike those particular spells, is that I feel it makes the game too easy. I dont want a mystery being too easily undone wiht a detect lie, or bypassing the travel aspect of the game via teleport. That sort of thing. I have no problems with save or die abilities as "i win" buttons - as long as the system keeps them a rare resource/balances out in other ways.
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Breaking away from D&D, it's possible to have interesting adventures in power levels from Ars Magica to Exalted to Nobilis. (Although, it's worth mentioning, all of those settings have characters more specialized than "generic magic man/generic holy magic man".
    I realize this is a bit of an aside, but, for what it's worth, D&D's casters are only really "generic" because its success and fundamental relationship to its genre have generalized its particular visions.
    Spoiler: Continuing this line of thought
    Show
    Having one sort of magician who gets power without strings attached as well as a different sort who gets it through connections with deities is not typical of pre-D&D works, at least to the best of my knowledge. In particular, the wizard is very much the Vancian sort, in more than just the base mechanics of how they cast spells. A D&D wizard journeys through terrible dangers in order to retrieve lost scraps of magical lore from the shattered ruins of past civilizations, copying these treasured spells into grimoires more important than anything. Each spell, which is a work unto itself, freed from any prerequisites other than the ability to cast spells in the first place, is specific in character and has limitations the magician has no ability to alter (such as magic missile not hitting inanimate objects, for example, or invisibility breaking during only those kinds of physical contact or spellcasting which constitute attacks), which further centers the idea of the spells being lost lore. Wizards don't share their spells with everyone, but hoard them, and hide their knowledge behind personal codes and ciphers, and consider others of their craft to be rivals, rather than colleagues.

    The clerics are largely very particular as well; rather than just people who are both priests and magic-users, with the exact relationship between these roles nebulous, as can be found, for example, in the works of Fritz Leiber, the clerics are very rooted in Biblical prophets, with some medieval Knights Templar armament added on. AD&D had a spell that could bear you aloft on a chariot of fire, and another one that turned sticks into snakes. Clerics get insect plague and part water even when their deities aren't necessarily involved with either insects or water.

    Now, both these archetypes have become less pronounced over the editions, with various effects, not the least of which is the increase in wizards' power (since a more friendly discourse among wizards makes them able to share spells and such to a greater extent), but they're definitely there at the roots of the matter and they've left pronounced effects even unto the 5th edition.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Why didn't the lich king use the same spells on the party earlier? Or just Greater Teleport away as soon as somebody entered his lair - possibly with a contingency spell? You're assuming that powerful magic only exists on one side. By definition, no spell equally available to both sides can make the encounter one-sided and trivial.
    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The other thing about 5 dimensional chess is that, when you get to the end, it's boring. Like, really boring.

    "We teleport in"
    "The Lich blocked teleports"
    "We Disintegrate the walls"
    "Walls are enchanted"
    "We Dispel Magic"
    "Conditional instant-resetting Counterspell trap stops your Dispell magic"
    Repeat for tactic and countertactic until the Player is out of moves.
    "Okay GM, you've done your homework. Well done. NOW we storm the Lich's fortress and try to fight him."

    Yes, but that kind of logic (the whole 5D chess thing), is quite often poo-poo'd on this forum (and elsewhere) as "Railroading", which adds another level of migrane to the DM's headache.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Spellcasters do not always have the exact spell needed at the moment it's needed. .
    Unless that caster is a Sorc, who can freely cast any spell in existance with out prior prep.
    Last edited by Mutazoia; 2017-08-03 at 02:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Unless that caster is a Sorc, who can freely cast any spell in existance with out prior prep.
    Even with preparation limitations, mid to high level D&D casters are capable of essentially instantaneous retreat from any situation that is even the least bit dangerous unless the enemy is at least their equal in power and was extremely well-prepared. Thereafter, unless their enemies are prepared to besiege them in the heart of their power (which may be a nigh-unreachable extra-planar stronghold) they only have to emerge when fully informed by the power of their divinations and fully prepared to the best of their players ability to assess - with the legitimate point that in the case of wizards at least these characters are supposed to have inhuman levels of super-genius to support their planning.

    Essentially all mid-to-high level full casters are like Dr. Strange. They can always retreat to the sanctum unless ambushed incredibly effectively, they are something like ten times as powerful in the Sanctum as anywhere else, and they only have to take the risk of leaving the sanctum once they have determined exactly how to deal with a problem in the most efficient way. As a result the only stories that are even possible for such characters defy typical narrative convention and go super-weird.

    And you can do this if you want. D&D has a whole multi-verse called Planescape to do it in. Mage: the Ascension has an infinite array of bizarre otherworlds to get your Dr. Strange on in. Bruce Cordell and Monte Cook wrote a game literally titled 'The Strange' that I haven't played but seems like its fully in this wheelhouse. All of that stuff works.

    The problem is you can't back-cross. You can't take characters suitable for this sort of overpowered extra-dimensions of philosophical magic kind of game and port them in an alternative history swords and sorcery medieval universe, or at least you can have them as characters who actually care about what happens in that world.

    The works of Fritz Leiber provide a very good example of this divide. The playable characters Fafrhd and the Gray Mouser are low to mid level martials. that's who you play and mostly the kind of characters they fight - enemy mages are largely extremely low level by D&D standards but are capable of wreaking devastation with their magic anyway. The same universe of Newhon contains two extremely powerful mage characters: Ningauble of the Seven Eyes and Sheelba of the Eyeless Face, who simply aren't playing by the same rules as our heroes and also are far too busy playing extra-dimensional chess to bother with anything that matters to the people of Newhon. That's the divide - you can play sword and sorcery or you can play phenomenal cosmic forces, but you can't play both games at the same time and the overlap between the stories you can tell with those two things is extremely limited.
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The other thing about 5 dimensional chess is that, when you get to the end, it's boring. Like, really boring.

    "We teleport in"
    "The Lich blocked teleports"
    "We Disintegrate the walls"
    "Walls are enchanted"
    "We Dispel Magic"
    "Conditional instant-resetting Counterspell trap stops your Dispell magic"
    Repeat for tactic and countertactic until the Player is out of moves.
    "Okay GM, you've done your homework. Well done. NOW we storm the Lich's fortress and try to fight him."
    No, they storm the Lich tomorrow because the caster is out of spell slots

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrykhor View Post
    No, they storm the Lich tomorrow because the caster is out of spell slots
    Nope...they only used a few spells from his Ring of Spell Storing, and maybe a charge or two from a wand or staff....or just said "screw it" and used a couple of scrolls that the caster can re-manufacture after the adventure....
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    I like win buttons. It mostly means that the people I dont want to play with are playing a different game and pushing those buttons

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    d20 Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    I suppose any problem I have with them might be dependent on how readily available the button is… and this presently coming from a 5e perspective:

    For example I feel that a caster in the party who learned identify to more easily and quickly identify the properties of magic items is clever—as long as the party has ample down time they're free to effectively know everything about the loot they come across which doesn't bog things down…

    …except, if I recall correctly, anyone can identify an item's property if they spend a Short Rest examining it, even with no prior magical knowledge or experience …so why does the spell exist anymore?

    Likewise, at least in my group, it seems that the detect magic spell has been completely superseded by generic Arcana skill checks. I guess they… taste the magic in the air? I get that other players what to feel helpful, I do, but on the other hand you've got another player who's spent limited resources specifically for that purpose and that player might start thinking that the choices made are now pointless.

    (Granted, I still have a problem with full heal Long Rests, hit-die spending on Short Rests, and death saving throws… and my last couple of groups have also been the type to have "infinitely large" bags of holding because nobody wanted to keep track of weight or volume.)
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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Âmesang View Post
    I suppose any problem I have with them might be dependent on how readily available the button is… and this presently coming from a 5e perspective:

    For example I feel that a caster in the party who learned identify to more easily and quickly identify the properties of magic items is clever—as long as the party has ample down time they're free to effectively know everything about the loot they come across which doesn't bog things down…

    …except, if I recall correctly, anyone can identify an item's property if they spend a Short Rest examining it, even with no prior magical knowledge or experience …so why does the spell exist anymore?

    Likewise, at least in my group, it seems that the detect magic spell has been completely superseded by generic Arcana skill checks. I guess they… taste the magic in the air? I get that other players what to feel helpful, I do, but on the other hand you've got another player who's spent limited resources specifically for that purpose and that player might start thinking that the choices made are now pointless.

    (Granted, I still have a problem with full heal Long Rests, hit-die spending on Short Rests, and death saving throws… and my last couple of groups have also been the type to have "infinitely large" bags of holding because nobody wanted to keep track of weight or volume.)
    I was in a (3.5 D&D) game where the non-magic folk could "search" a room faster than one could use Detect Magic to find loot. And, of course, such searches were 100% accurate, while Detect Magic had plenty of known limitations.

    So I can see where handing everyone a free win button that is better than what a character had to spend resources to get is bad.

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    Default Re: Why the hate for "win buttons"?

    One thing I have noticed in years of playtesting is that players hate it when they expend a resource and dont get anything in return, thus spells which require spell slots better be win buttons if they dont want angry players ragequitting the game after flubbing a dice roll.
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