OOTS #1087 - The Discussion Thread

[drazen]

Indeed, he strongly implies that this is his main motivation for going along with her plan, and that another vampire, formed from a different sort of low, might not have done so.

Greg complains that Durkon never satisfied his own desires, yet has chosen to supplicate himself before Hel as her unquestioning servant. Seems a little off that he'd complain Durkon was nothing but obedient, when he's doing the same thing himself.

I'm also trying to reconcile #1086 where Greg tells Durkon he has little time left "as a discrete consciousness," yet in #948 the process is described as the possessed body's original spirit succumbing to "eternal dormancy."

So... which is it, exactly?

[Jasdoif]

I'm also trying to reconcile #1086 where Greg tells Durkon he has little time left "as a discrete consciousness," yet in #948 the process is described as the possessed body's original spirit succumbing to "eternal dormancy."

I suspect it won't be a conscious dormancy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Greg complains that Durkon never satisfied his own desires, yet has chosen to supplicate himself before Hel as her unquestioning servant. Seems a little off that he'd complain Durkon was nothing but obedient, when he's doing the same thing himself.

Ummm... no, Greg's clearly trying to do both at once: be Hel's servant, and satisfy his own desire to destroy Roy (who seems to really rub Greg the wrong way). Criticising Durkon for not indulging himself is perfectly valid when Greg is indeed trying to juggle both at the same time.

Yes, it is likely that said juggling of competing desires might be one of the fatal flaws that destroy Greg, but it is otherwise not a hypocritical stance.

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

So we see that the other vampires constantly call Durkon "Master," just as Thrall!Durkon did to Malack, yet at the same time this strip also tells us what's going on in the Exarch's head is the same as Durkon. Does this finally end the idea that Thrall!Durkon was not the same entity as HPOH/Durkula/Gr*g/"Durkon"?

[SaintRidley]

Well, that was a fairly revelatory strip. To hear Exarch explain it, he seems to be antagonized by his host's memories. I'm actually not a D&D player, so I don't quite know the rules governing vampires in the setting. Can host souls exert deep influence on the vampiric spirit's actions, or is this more of a one-off situation with Exarch? For that matter, is this just an odd turn of phrase on his part?

The whole host soul/vampire spirit thing is entirely a Rich thing, not a D&D thing with rules behind it. One book makes a suggestion that this is an option for how vampires can work, but that's the closest D&D gets to this.

[8BitNinja]

Now I'm scared of what they're putting in the water over in S. Korea.

You see, it's a very simple and pathetic story. I helped build a floating city running completely on nuclear power. People worked, played, and went to school there. Life was good. Then one day, one reactor went boom and now no one wants to live there for some reason.

Can you believe these people?

[klarg1]

I don't think he means his host is actively influencing him right now, but rather that the aspects of his personality that were twisted to create the vampire spirit make him a bit of a basket case. Could be wrong, though.

That would be roughly my interpretation too.

Durkon was betrayed by the organization he loyally followed, and his vampire spirit reflects some level of rebellion against that trauma. (and something similar for the Exarch)

[Chronos]

Quoth Shining Wrath:

Lastly, notice how Squeaky is uncomfortable with the term "master", while Durkon's unwelcome guest accepts the word as a matter of course. This may be foreshadowing of a sort; perhaps it is possible for the dwarven hosts to break free from control because a master / slave relationship is unnatural for them.

I think that's mostly just a reflection of the fact that, atypically for a dwarf, Squeaky is chaotic (or at least, non-lawful). He is a bard, after all, and we've also seen how he dealt with Sidgi's injunction not to tell Durkon about his father.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does this finally end the idea that Thrall!Durkon was not the same entity as HPOH/Durkula/Gr*g/"Durkon"?

No, because that idea is rooted in the fact that it is hard to imagine Greg acting as subservient and child-like as when he was a Thrall. At best, we can speculate that Thralldom may come in degrees: the master vampire can completely dominate the thrall's will, reducing them to barely independent entities, as Malack did (down to and including considering them children) whilst Greg allows them a lot more freedom of thought, since he needs partner-in-crime.

Grey Wolf

[Chronos]

Oh, and we've also seen the Exarch-vampire actively seeking out loopholes in his orders, when he concluded that it was acceptable to drain the tiger, even though he'd been told not to drain any people. That doesn't seem very thrall-like.

I'm guessing that, since the High Priest of Hel needed to produce an awful lot of spawn vampires very quickly, and since (I don't think, at least) thralls can't create their own spawn, he had to liberate the Exarch-vampire so they could both proceed with the biting and draining and such.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

thralls can't create their own spawn

They can.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

(emphasis mine)

However, the quote itself gives us an answer: divide and conquer, just as you said. There were a lot of non-deistic clerics to convert, so Greg might have released V-Gontor just so they could get more vampires up and running independently of one another.

Under that assumption, V-Gontor calls Greg "Master" because that's just how much of a boot-licker he is.

GW

[Quibblicious]

Looks like everyone is invited, including unholy abominations.

Yay! I can participate!

Q

[RatElemental]

I think that's mostly just a reflection of the fact that, atypically for a dwarf, Squeaky is chaotic (or at least, non-lawful). He is a bard, after all, and we've also seen how he dealt with Sidgi's injunction not to tell Durkon about his father.

Now I'm wondering if that apprentice bard is lawful, and if the process of becoming a (decent) bard inherently involves developing ways of thinking that lead one to be non-lawful.

[Ruck]

I wasn't sure if Count Durkula's talk to Durkon about being created to fill the hole in his heart was psychological warfare or actually true, but I thought last strip was evidence toward the latter, and this strip is practically confirmation.

I thought the exarch was the leader of his sect, so how come the ex-exarch is now such a follower, seemingly beneath the two random vampires…

What makes him seem like he's beneath the other two vampires?

[2D8HP]

...Still, older vampires like Malak do seem to consider their vampire state to be a continuation of their mortal state. Whether that's because the vampire soul and the host soul eventually merge or because someone with all your memories, experiences, and outlooks would be hard to distinguish from you is a largely academic question.

Really?

I got the impression that Malack regarded himself as distinct:

"Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today"

[Samzat]

Thanks for answering my question from last time rich

[Chei]

Greg complains that Durkon never satisfied his own desires, yet has chosen to supplicate himself before Hel as her unquestioning servant. Seems a little off that he'd complain Durkon was nothing but obedient, when he's doing the same thing himself.
So... which is it, exactly?

When Durkula had Roy on the ropes back in Strip #1006, he suggested that he doesn't care who he serves, as long as he can take revenge. Roy basically made the same argument you did, as well. This line of his rings pretty true to me. I think that page, and the strip where Durkula makes the "your worst day" speech, solidified revenge as his primary motivator. Hel is just his best shot at taking revenge. She gives him clerical powers, already has a plan, and her domain is the worst place a dwarf could end up.

[Finagle]

(Rich Burley is kind of laying it on thick if you know what to look for in the 1087 comic)

Monomyth / The Heroes Journey

Jungian Individuation

SQUEEEEEELLLLLL

Guh, I never got this. Why does the story have to conform to this set of arbitrary assumptions? It can be about anything, you know. It doesn't have to be yet another tired retread of "The Hero's Journey". In fact, one thing I enjoyed about OOTS for many years was its constant confounding of cliched stories like this. I don't get why it's so exciting to see yet another work slavishly following stale old tropes like these. Ugh, if I go the rest of my life without seeing "The Hero's Journey" again I will die a happy man.

[Unoriginal]

I find interesting that Greg basically presenting himself as doing a favor to Durkon, and even as some kind of teacher/person who knows how Durkon should live.

[Peelee]

You see, it's a very simple and pathetic story. I helped build a floating city running completely on nuclear power. People worked, played, and went to school there. Life was good. Then one day, one reactor went boom and now no one wants to live there for some reason.

Can you believe these people?

Well, to be fair to them, reactors going boom doesn't just happen; it takes a lot for that to go down.

[Finagle]

Durkon was betrayed by the organization he loyally followed, and his vampire spirit reflects some level of rebellion against that trauma. (and something similar for the Exarch)

How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

[Keltest]

How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

Because A: Durkon didn't know, and B: as is the case with most prophecies, the efforts to thwart it actually enabled it to come true. A prophecy that doesn't occur isn't delayed, its just wrong.

[Basement Cat]

You see, it's a very simple and pathetic story. I helped build a floating city running completely on nuclear power. People worked, played, and went to school there. Life was good. Then one day, one reactor went boom and now no one wants to live there for some reason.

Can you believe these people?

The ingratitude is mind boggling. Why, they might develop super powers but do they appreciate that? Doesn't seem so.

[Quibblicious]

Now I'm wondering if that apprentice bard is lawful, and if the process of becoming a (decent) bard inherently involves developing ways of thinking that lead one to be non-lawful.

Creativity is inherently chaotic.

Q

[pendell]

(Rich Burley is kind of laying it on thick if you know what to look for in the 1087 comic)

Monomyth / The Heroes Journey

Jungian Individuation

SQUEEEEEELLLLLL

(This is for the other OOTS readers, I am just talking out loud)

Maybe for Durkon to grow he had to reach his lowest point, he literally had to descend into hell. And in that hell he had to learn form his enemies, and from his enemies he realized he was already in a hell of his own making for he was not listening to his own desires and was always taking care of someone else. And through the experiences of his enemy Durkon grew. He learned he needed to also take care of his own desires and blah blah, and now he is a better Durkon than he was prior to his enemy. He is a happier Durkon. And now that he learned that lesson he is now at the point of the "Hero's journey" where he is going to escape from heaven and be the Greensear or the Master of Two Worlds / Domains. Durkon now has permission to freedom to live. And live he shall

And Durkon is now at the part of the story where he gets to kick all kinds of ass.

For he has conquered his enemy, by incorporating aspects of his enemy inside of himself, while remaining himself, and thus he is stronger than he used to be.

And this is the basics of Jungian Individuation, which a follower of Jung, Joseph Campbell then turned into the Hero's Journey / Monomyth / A Hero with a Thousand Faces (a true master has a 1000 tools at all times at every moment.)

Damn Rich Burlew is a good writter, he even named this comic Masters Mastering Mastery

I think you have exactly called the way this story is going to go. I agree and applaud it.

I admit it; when we started this little journey my initial thought was "Oh joy, another side quest. Can we get on to the gate already?"

Rich has proven that initial reaction wrong; this is a story worth telling, and so far it is well-told. So I'm glad he added the extra book ...

... but I still want to see how Oona and Greyview are doing. If there were more kickstarter rewards, I'd be tempted to pay cash to see more of their story.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rynjin]

Guh, I never got this. Why does the story have to conform to this set of arbitrary assumptions? It can be about anything, you know. It doesn't have to be yet another tired retread of "The Hero's Journey". In fact, one thing I enjoyed about OOTS for many years was its constant confounding of cliched stories like this. I don't get why it's so exciting to see yet another work slavishly following stale old tropes like these. Ugh, if I go the rest of my life without seeing "The Hero's Journey" again I will die a happy man.

Considering it's just a basic outline of plot STRUCTURE, not content, you're going to be very disappointed. Being excited over it IS silly, because it's nearly omnipresent in Western storytelling (traditional Eastern tales tend to have a different structure) and "noticing" it is simply a matter of having a working knowledge of how stories work.

Being annoyed by the presence of a plot structure that is ingrained as one of the truest examples of a meme in Western culture you're ever likely to see is likewise silly, however. It's an extraordinarily broad and modular structure because it's descriptive, not prescriptive. Stories do not "conform" to this type of story structure, the "Hero's Journey" (and other variations like the Shadow's and Hermit's Journeys that detail the arc of many side characters and antagonists) are Campbell's studies on how most stories in Western society naturally develop. The way of thinking our society has, how we study in school, how we're expected to approach problem solving, etc. is what creates this story structure, not some "slavish following" of Campbell's work.

For all you decry it as a collection of "stale tropes" and "cliches" I'd be willing to put money down that a story that significantly departs from that kind of structure would at best feel very strangely written to you and on average feel like a BADLY written story because the same cultural osmosis that causes the structure to be omipresent causes any story that follows it to feel "right".

How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

That's not how prophecies work. This, all along, was the ruin that Odin saw. If Durkon had come home the next day and stayed there forever, none of this would be happening.

As with almost all prophecies this one was self-fulfilling. The attempt to stop the prophecy (or postpone it) caused the catastrophe in the first place.

You'd think people living in a world where prophecy is real would have caught on to that by now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Creativity is inherently chaotic.

Q

I disagree. I see where you are coming from, but poetry can be amazingly creative while sticking to extremely strict rules on meter, rhyme, etc. Yes, "trying something new" is closer to creativity than "retelling an existing story" [insert here rant about Hollywood frame-for-frame remakes if you must], but there is such a thing as Legal creativity.

ETA:

You'd think people living in a world where prophecy is real would have caught on to that by now.

It probably fluctuates back-and-forth like a pendulum: when people catch on to prophecies being self-fulfilling, prophecies start to depend on the receiver blithely ignoring the warning, until those become well-known, so people go back to trying to avoid the prophecy, and back to the start.

GW

[Ruck]

Because A: Durkon didn't know, and B: as is the case with most prophecies, the efforts to thwart it actually enabled it to come true. A prophecy that doesn't occur isn't delayed, its just wrong.

Especially with a Dwarf as loyal and Lawful as Durkon was. (And the high priests knew that; that's why they gave him the "human lands" mission.) They could have straight-up told him "We've received a prophecy that you will bring death and destruction next you return home; therefore, we must forbid you from ever returning home." Instead of being bitter about it, I bet Durkon might have even relished the chance to show courage in his greater duty to the Dwarven people by living out the rest of his days away from Dwarven society.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Very interesting to get a look at how the vampire is influenced by the character of its host. I also love the mood the colors in this strip give the story.

[Unoriginal]

How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

They literally threw him out of the gate into the cold (where he could have frozen to death), without even allowing his mother to say goodbye.