OOTS #1087 - The Discussion Thread

[Ironsmith]

Ah, but I think it suggests the opposite. Darkon just used the same phrasing and philosophy as someone in the memory. He is being actively influenced by what Durkon dredges up.

I have to respectfully disagree on this point. He follows the letter of what was said, but obviously says it in a completely different context. See, the way Squeaky said "she wouldn't have anything to learn from me" was as a self-deprecating joke... Squeaky's implying that if his apprentice had any skill at all (that is to say, bare-minimum skill), there would be nothing he could teach her, because she would be better than him.

Darkon uses the phrase much less ironically, though... he's using it to imply mastery, as opposed to as a form of good-natured, light ribbing. He's adopting mannerisms and phraseology that Durkon would use, without taking any of the spirit of what's being said.

Plus, he and the Exarch are both clearly not anywhere near as self-aware as they would like to think they are: the Exarch seems to think he's a follower (despite his host being more definitively chaotic) and Darkon is a leader (despite his host being less assertive than a dire doormat), even further exemplified by the fact that the Exarch is quicker to respond to everything.

[Unoriginal]

Guh, I never got this. Why does the story have to conform to this set of arbitrary assumptions? It can be about anything, you know. It doesn't have to be yet another tired retread of "The Hero's Journey". In fact, one thing I enjoyed about OOTS for many years was its constant confounding of cliched stories like this. I don't get why it's so exciting to see yet another work slavishly following stale old tropes like these.

The Hero's Journey is not a set of arbitrary assumptions, nor is it a bunch of rules and even less something you have to "slavishly follow".

It is simply a vague pattern/structure you can see in plenty of different narratives

[Ugh, if I go the rest of my life without seeing "The Hero's Journey" again I will die a happy man.

So you're saying you are going to stop reading the Order of the Stick?

Not saying you should, but, shocking news, OotS can be said it follows the Hero's Journey.

DHUN DHUN DHUN

[Jasdoif]

Creativity is inherently chaotic.

Structure is what elevates the creative above the meaninglessly random, though.

[Shining Wrath]

The High Priest of Thor, now deceased, who threw Durkon out into the snow was a colossal jerk who panicked over a prophecy capable of multiple interpretations, and thereby screwed the pooch deep, wide, hard, and thoroughly.

If in the hereafter Durkon gets to kick that guy repeatedly in the crotch it will be fitting revenge. "'Tis Thorsday eve, so here I am again - BOOT!".

But killing every dwarf alive and delivering their souls to Hel is, if you'll pardon the expression, overkill.

EDIT:

Just about every creative process does follow some rules. For example, movies are designed to be shown on a screen of a certain size. Music has certain conventions, which are different for a symphony orchestra and a country-western band. I could go on, but you get my drift; the thing that is usually interesting is seeing what can be done within the strictures of a convention, not having no conventions whatsoever.

[pendell]

They literally threw him out of the gate into the cold (where he could have frozen to death), without even allowing his mother to say goodbye.

That could definitely have been handled better.

If were the HP, I'd have taken Durkon aside and explained that due to prophecy he had to leave for an indefinite amount of time, and returning too early from it could bring disaster on the dwarven people.

Then give him a little time -- a few days or so -- to say goodbye to his family and wrap up his affairs. Give him something to remember them buy and some spending money. Tell him that it is for their safety he is going away, and it may very well be forever. He is giving up his life to save theirs.

It probably wouldn't have made much difference -- Durkon would still have done essentially the same things he did and wound up with Roy -- but maybe a little bit of kindness would be useful at some point. Besides which, it was extremely cruel to just throw him out into the snow.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Unoriginal]

I have to respectfully disagree on this point. He follows the letter of what was said, but obviously says it in a completely different context. See, the way Squeaky said "she wouldn't have anything to learn from me" was as a self-deprecating joke... Squeaky's implying that if his apprentice had any skill at all (that is to say, bare-minimum skill), there would be nothing he could teach her, because she would be better than him.

Darkon uses the phrase much less ironically, though... he's using it to imply mastery, as opposed to as a form of good-natured, light ribbing. He's adopting mannerisms and phraseology that Durkon would use, without taking any of the spirit of what's being said.

Or it could be that both Squeaky and the vampire are using the sentence to imply they are better at the task than the person they're talking about, but that this person can/could have surpassed them with some work. Squeaky's using this as a small, good-natured jab coupled with self-derision, as you said, but the vampire is also basically saying "man, if Durkon had been a bit less of a devoted good guy and had acted on his dark desires, I would have no reason or way to exist", so while the vampire is being way more nasty, he's still using the quote in the spirit it was meant.

Plus, he and the Exarch are both clearly not anywhere near as self-aware as they would like to think they are: the Exarch seems to think he's a follower (despite his host being more definitively chaotic) and Darkon is a leader (despite his host being less assertive than a dire doormat), even further exemplified by the fact that the Exarch is quicker to respond to everything.

Err, I think you've misinterpreted something, because the two vampires are talking about how they are different from their hosts. Vampire!Exarch is a follower (unlike his host) while Vampire!Durkon is a leader (unlike his host), and both are self-aware about that.

[DeliaP]

That's not how prophecies work. This, all along, was the ruin that Odin saw. If Durkon had come home the next day and stayed there forever, none of this would be happening.

As with almost all prophecies this one was self-fulfilling. The attempt to stop the prophecy (or postpone it) caused the catastrophe in the first place.

You'd think people living in a world where prophecy is real would have caught on to that by now.

It probably fluctuates back-and-forth like a pendulum: when people catch on to prophecies being self-fulfilling, prophecies start to depend on the receiver blithely ignoring the warning, until those become well-known, so people go back to trying to avoid the prophecy, and back to the start.

GW

But of course, the prophecies still come true regardless. So what do you do if you live in a world in which prophecies are true, and you go and get yourself a bad one?

The obvious trick is you try to find an way of interpreting the prophecy so you can make it come true in the way you want it.... Hurak should have just sent Durkon out to buy a couple of unusually named hamsters for the community.

[Lord Raziere]

I dunno, this comic seems to point to the exact opposite of them being antithesises unlike what they claim. the "follower" vampire is being awfully bossy to that door for not doing its job. while he is the only one of the group being all shouty and excited, so he still is being the nail sticking out while the other two just follow V-Durkon's orders quietly.

while Vampire Durkon is not technically a leader.....just a follower of Hel. the first follower, but a follower nonetheless. he still just a supporter, only this time of Hel. how is this actually fulfilling any of his desires? all he is doing is fulfilling Hel's desires and believing thats his own are being fulfilled through her.

so nice try, but they seem to demonstrate anything but being antihesises.

[Ironsmith]

I dunno, this comic seems to point to the exact opposite of them being antithesises unlike what they claim. the "follower" vampire is being awfully bossy to that door for not doing its job. while he is the only one of the group being all shouty and excited, so he still is being the nail sticking out while the other two just follow V-Durkon's orders quietly.

while Vampire Durkon is not technically a leader.....just a follower of Hel. the first follower, but a follower nonetheless. he still just a supporter, only this time of Hel. how is this actually fulfilling any of his desires? all he is doing is fulfilling Hel's desires and believing thats his own are being fulfilled through her.

so nice try, but they seem to demonstrate anything but being antihesises.

Further underscored by the fact that it's the Exarch who proposes this view and Darkon who finds himself agreeing, rather than the other way around (basically, the Exarch still leading the conversation with Darkon following).

[Lord Raziere]

Further underscored by the fact that it's the Exarch who proposes this view and Darkon who finds himself agreeing, rather than the other way around (basically, the Exarch still leading the conversation with Darkon following).

Exactly.

the vampires are not really their antithesises, they just think they are because they hate the people they come from, see their flaws through their lens and try to form an identity separate from that and end up overcompensating without realizing that they are just doing the same things their hosts did, just in different ways.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just about every creative process does follow some rules.

Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There are many creative processes who have no rules (free jazz, free verse) or whose authors ignore or break the rules they feel are restricting their creativity (E.E. Cummings springs to mind, and through him I found these others in this list).

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There are many creative processes who have no rules (free jazz, free verse)

So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

[JumboWheat01]

Aww... I was hoping for more architectural scolding. It was hilarious.

[DaggerPen]

Huh, further confirmation of the idea that vampire souls are made as a dark mirror their host's insecurities and regrets. That whole "Then he wouldn't have anything to learn from me" line is particularly interesting. Further supports the theory for me that Durkon can defeat the vampire by growing as a person - and perhaps influencing Durkon*'s views as well.

[Ramza00]

Really?

I got the impression that Malack regarded himself as distinct:

"Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today"

Ship of Theseus Paradox / Philosophical Question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[Shoelessgdowar]

But of course, the prophecies still come true regardless. So what do you do if you live in a world in which prophecies are true, and you go and get yourself a bad one?

The obvious trick is you try to find an way of interpreting the prophecy so you can make it come true in the way you want it.... Hurak should have just sent Durkon out to buy a couple of unusually named hamsters for the community.

Now, if Roy would just be smart enough to give Belkar a Dagger named 'His Last Breath, Ever', so the prophecy can be fulfilled and people can finally get the short jokes and meta jokes.

So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

The Artist. Some of the best songs are created when artists change things up from the normal, by using new ideas or by including unconventional instrument choices.

Aww... I was hoping for more architectural scolding. It was hilarious.

Yeah, I was being floored by them. A few more passages about Gonetor beating his head against tbe wall would have been adoorable. I think they would have ben key to unlocking some insights through a peephole into his inner sanctums.

[Chei]

Huh, further confirmation of the idea that vampire souls are made as a dark mirror their host's insecurities and regrets. That whole "Then he wouldn't have anything to learn from me" line is particularly interesting. Further supports the theory for me that Durkon can defeat the vampire by growing as a person - and perhaps influencing Durkon*'s views as well.

Yeah, that line was weird, in the sense that the vampire seems to think that Durkon learning anything will ever be relevant again. To the vampire, Durkon's discrete consciousness should be dead and there should be no point in him learning anything further. To phrase it like that also suggests that the vampire is actually trying to teach him something. It's a pretty heavy line all around; I can't wait to see what comes of it.

[Grytorm]

Also, for why there was this memory in the comic (someone asked about it), I'm pretty certain it is a continuation of the previous page.

[Alex Warlorn]

"Worship rocks" he says. Reminds me of the jackass attitude that lot of people show the Southern Gods. I feel sorry for the Earth Elemental Cult, being exterminated just for Hel's scheme. Who even grieves for them?

[druid91]

Well, that was a fairly revelatory strip. To hear Exarch explain it, he seems to be antagonized by his host's memories. I'm actually not a D&D player, so I don't quite know the rules governing vampires in the setting. Can host souls exert deep influence on the vampiric spirit's actions, or is this more of a one-off situation with Exarch? For that matter, is this just an odd turn of phrase on his part?

At least in official D&D it's less "An evil spirit possesses you." and more "Your worldview drastically shifts on account of your body being remade into a predatory undead monstrosity, who's very existence is powered by a cosmic force opposed to living things."

Living things like people are powered by Positive Energy from the Positive Energy Plane. Undead are powered by Negative Energy. From the Negative Energy Plane.

Dead things aren't powered by anything.

[mouser9169]

If Durkon and Gontor are "hosts", that makes the vampires "guests" or "parasites", depending on the sense of the word "host" used.



You could argue for either, or even both. We could refer to the vampires as "unwelcome guests" instead of things like "Durkula" and "Gonetor".

Symbiote is another good word. I'm thinking of Venom, from the Spider-Verse. Incidentally, I'm reading what looks to be a good run on Marvel Unlimited now, when Venom has finally taken a host strong enough to control him...

[RolkFlameraven]

Symbiote is another good word. I'm thinking of Venom, from the Spider-Verse. Incidentally, I'm reading what looks to be a good run on Marvel Unlimited now, when Venom has finally taken a host strong enough to control him...

Flash's run with the thing?

[The MunchKING]

Symbiote is another good word. I'm thinking of Venom, from the Spider-Verse. Incidentally, I'm reading what looks to be a good run on Marvel Unlimited now, when Venom has finally taken a host strong enough to control him...

It's only symbiotic if both sides profit from it. If one side only loses from the deal (like Durkon in this instance), the relation ship is not symbiotic, but parasitic.

[Goblin_Priest]

Interesting to get a new look at some of the dynamic between the vampires. Exarch seems happy to follow, but maybe the others are less so?

I'm confused. Is the Exarch a thrall or free-willed? I was assuming vampires didn't get a fully-fledged negative energy "soul" until they gained their independence, given the stark personality change that happens then.

[Finagle]

Because A: Durkon didn't know, and B: as is the case with most prophecies, the efforts to thwart it actually enabled it to come true. A prophecy that doesn't occur isn't delayed, its just wrong.

That's not how prophecies work. This, all along, was the ruin that Odin saw. If Durkon had come home the next day and stayed there forever, none of this would be happening.

Huh? The prophecy came straight from Odin. It was going to happen. It can't possibly be wrong. That's not how prophecies work. It could either happen that day when Durkon went home, or they could come up with a hasty plan to try and stave off disaster. It's what Odin does on his throne every day with his power of foresight that he traded one of his eyes for. Did nobody pick up on that subtext? Ragnarok?

It wasn't the high priest of Thor's doing that caused the prophecy. It's what caused it to come in this particular form, but at least Dwarven society got 20 extra years.

You think OOTS is going to stave off the destruction? Nope, it's going to happen no matter what, even if they save the rest of the world from the Snarl. Prophecy. Straight from the top.

The way of thinking our society has, how we study in school, how we're expected to approach problem solving, etc. is what creates this story structure

I've got an idea! Let's make some new stories.

Nah, let's make part 6 of some superhero drek. Well at least now I know why people keep buying tickets for those. It seems you people actually like watching the same story over and over.

I'd be willing to put money down that a story that significantly departs from that kind of structure would at best feel very strangely written to you and on average feel like a BADLY written story because the same cultural osmosis that causes the structure to be omipresent causes any story that follows it to feel "right".

I like stories to feel "new". There is no "right" and "wrong" in stories. They are completely fictional and can be about whatever the hell we want them to be. It's always a groaner when I find out the story is just a retread of what's been done a thousand times before. Moreover the whole "Western Culture" thing is overdone, let's let some other cultures shine for a while and stop hogging the spotlight.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, for why there was this memory in the comic (someone asked about it), I'm pretty certain it is a continuation of the previous page.

It was triggered by the vampire calling Durkon "Master."

[GudBelkarIsGud]

Thanks to everyone for explaining how D&D vampires work! This filthy casual has learned some new things today

[8BitNinja]

So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

Free jazz is jazzy.

[SaintRidley]

So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

Free jazz is actually pleasant to listen to.

[White Blade]

I think that most people are overthinking the Thrall question. Thrall!Durkon was a newborn baby when he was a thing, likely acting out his master's wishes in a straightforward manner. After being free, he defaulted to behaving exactly like his host while he absorbed his memories. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the difference between Durkula and Gonetor was a developmental one and not a categorical one.