OOTS #1087 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

Now I'm imagining V using that spell at the Team Evil HQ...

Xykon's immune and Redcloak has an ungodly high Will save. MitD might be susceptible, but in that case why not just use the single-target version?

Oh, right, Oona and Grayview are things for this arc.

[Quibblicious]

And I thought Paladins couldn't make jokes.

Hey, what do you think we use our high charisma scores for?

Probably not picking up chicks... unless you mean using charisma to somehow rescue a hen and her young family from a cart careening wildly through the streets of a small town. Somehow I think dexterity would be the more appropriate stat, or maybe strength if you just stop the cart in its tracks.

Although I suppose you could use charisma to convince other people to leap in front of the cart to stop it and save the chicks. I suspect that would violate some Paladin code, though.

Meanderingly yours,
Q

[a_flemish_guy]

It was mentioned that once the Vampire has assimulated all of the memories of the host that the hosts soul then goes into dormancy. The process could take a couple years. Once the original soul had gone into dormancy it would not have been able to watch over the vampires shoulder to know and experience 2nd hand all of the events in the vampires unlife. While a young vampire that is killed and raised might not have much of a difference, a very old vampire like Malack would likely have a large difference between host and vampire personalities.

it might just become only dormant for the vampire, as in it just becomes part of the scenery since it doesn't need the soul anymore

the soul itself might continue to experience everything but this is all speculation so pretty much worthless

[Kardwill]

But seeing that the Oracle had already paid for his resurrection in advance, it seems likely he accepted his Death as inevitable and just used it to troll Belkar.

He didn't. He knew that Beklar was going to kill him (due to, you know, being a seer), and so he set up the town.

There was nothing "likely" about it, he knew it was coming

I don't know. The way he said "I wasn't really buying those theories either. Worth a shot though" when he died doesn't sound like a "Ha! Gotcha!". He knew his death was coming since the prophecy's other threads were unraveling (and maybe du to some visions about this day), but he wasn't sure of it. His "worth a shot" means he tried to weasel his way out, even if he took his precautions for his very likely death ('cause any day where you don't have your guts sticking out is a good day, even if you know you'll come back later)

[Kardwill]

I didn't pick up the wording, either. Thanks for pointing that out!

I am amazed at how Rich foreshadowed Durkon's nature as far back as this strip. No matter what Durkon thought, part of him resented his strict obedience and suppression of his desires. No surprise that the vampire inside him think that he is helping Darkon out.

So far, Durkon has been the character with the least growth (and much less than Haley, Belkar, etc), but it appears that he will have far more character growth in the future.

Oooh, "I should take feelings like that, and bury them in a deep dark part of my soul and never, ever talk about them again. That's the dwarven way." Good catch!

Well now, I guess that the "deep dark part of his soul" is walking among the living and wants to talk about those feelings again. ^^

[Peelee]

I don't know. The way he said "I wasn't really buying those theories either. Worth a shot though" when he died doesn't sound like a "Ha! Gotcha!". He knew his death was coming since the prophecy's other threads were unraveling (and maybe du to some visions about this day), but he wasn't sure of it. His "worth a shot" means he tried to weasel his way out, even if he took his precautions for his very likely death ('cause any day where you don't have your guts sticking out is a good day, even if you know you'll come back later)

He knows Belkar will kill him. He knows he can't get out of it. No matter what he said, Belkar would have ended up killing him. In such a scenario why shouldn't the Oracle try whatever the hell he feels like? Not like anything would actually help, so why not hassle the halfling?

[hroþila]

I don't think the Oracle was being 100% rational back there. He knew there was no defying one of his prophecies, BUT WHAT IF this was the one time he somehow managed to do it? He doesn't lose anything by trying, anyway.

[Shining Wrath]

Xykon's immune and Red cloak has an ungodly high Will save. MitD might be susceptible, but in that case why not just use the single-target version?

Oh, right, Oona and Grayview are things for this arc.

First - you're no fun. At all. Don't ruin the image of Team Evil collectively doing the Electric Boogaloo for the rest of us.

Secondly, since the spell doesn't actually exist, we can stipulate that it does affect undead, and attacks Reflex saves, for Reasons Too Tedious To Enumerate (kindly ignore my waving hand).

Also, instead of Mass Irresistible Dance, I vote for a spell that forces Team Evil to collectively sing "Day-O", as seen in the best scene in Betelgeuse.

[Unoriginal]

Isn't there a feat or a spell that let Bards affect undead with their powers?

An Epic Evil Bard would probably have it.

[factotum]

Probably not picking up chicks...

Why not? There's nothing in the paladin code requiring them to be celibate, as far as I know.

[Doug Lampert]

This makes me wonder if there's a mass version of Irresistible Dance.

Xykon's immune and Red cloak has an ungodly high Will save. MitD might be susceptible, but in that case why not just use the single-target version?

Oh, right, Oona and Grayview are things for this arc.

Irresistible Dance
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Who cares about Redcloak's will save if you're throwing around Irresistible Dance.

The word Irresistible is right there in the title (and the words "Spell Resistance: Yes" are right there in the spell block, so much for truth in advertising).

[Jasdoif]

The word Irresistible is right there in the title (and the words "Spell Resistance: Yes" are right there in the spell block, so much for truth in advertising).

Clearly, the trick to get it as a supernatural ability....

[Shining Wrath]

Clearly, the trick to get it as a supernatural ability....

Something that might be granted to a religious bard by his deity - Banjo.

[Jay R]

I don't think the Oracle was being 100% rational back there. He knew there was no defying one of his prophecies, BUT WHAT IF this was the one time he somehow managed to do it? He doesn't lose anything by trying, anyway.

Prophecies can be tricky. I suspect that, having seen the future, he'd already knew about the entire event, and knew that, just as he couldn't prevent Belkar from killing him, he also couldn't stop himself from trying to prevent it.

[Throknor]

Prophecies can be tricky. I suspect that, having seen the future, he'd already knew about the entire event, and knew that, just as he couldn't prevent Belkar from killing him, he also couldn't stop himself from trying to prevent it.

I take the other tack, that he only knows the exact answers to questions. He just gets to ask himself "when will I next die" and "what spell will bring me back". He also gets to ask "when will the halfling that threatened to kill me die" and "what can I do to greatly inconvenience him/my next killer".

I don't have a chance to go through them all, but I'm pretty sure anything he knows could be explained with asking himself the right question. I don't think he just has random knowledge of the entirety of the future for everyone, or even himself, that he could treat as a reverse-memory. I think his power could be just knowing a true answer to any question. As long as he can ask himself questions he can get what he needs for himself without it being an eternal curse.

I mean, if he always knew the exact future he wouldn't always seem to get interrupted during bath time.

Of course, that reference also hurts my point. Unless he previously asked for the identity of his next killer & when that killer would die and then recognized Belkar my explanation does not handle how he knows immediately that Belkar is not long for the world. So I'm just going to say he did and close the loop.

(Yes, I'm overthinking both foreshadowing and jokes. Isn't that what these forums are for?)

[Jay R]

I take the other tack, that he only knows the exact answers to questions.

But in one case we already know that he looked forward into the future to where these strips get collected into a book and read them.

I mean, if he always knew the exact future he wouldn't always seem to get interrupted during bath time.

Yes, he would, if that's the exact future. We've already shown that he cannot change the future he's seen, so if he has already seen himself get interrupted during bath time, then he will get interrupted during bath time.

This is prophecy, not a hypothetical outcome that can be changed.

(Yes, I'm overthinking both foreshadowing and jokes. Isn't that what these forums are for?)

Yes, but don't forget Newton's Third Law of Internet Discussions: for every overthinking poster, there is an equal and opposite overthinking poster.

[skim172]

That vampire complaining about the exarch running away from the family business - it occurs to me that while in the real world, giving up your life to run away to a purely- monastic spiritual existence might be viewed as drastic and somewhat irrational ... in a world where the gods and spirits are literally manifested in the world and you see them all the time and they give you superpowers, it actually seems quite a rational and levelheaded career option. Not exactly an act of tremendous faith to choose to serve a deity when that deity comes around regularly just to chill on weekends, y'know?

This vampire's complaining that his host gave up a position in the family business ... but on the other hand, he now has (or had) the power to literally cause the rocks to cry out and shape the earth to serve his every whim and raise cool stone castles from the mountains in mere hours. I dunno, vampire - maybe it's your priorities that are screwed up.

I think the Vatican would find recruitment easier if all their priests were given superpowers in return for saying their nightly prayers.

[Kantaki]

That vampire complaining about the exarch running away from the family business - it occurs to me that while in the real world, giving up your life to run away to a purely- monastic spiritual existence might be viewed as drastic and somewhat irrational ... in a world where the gods and spirits are literally manifested in the world and you see them all the time and they give you superpowers, it actually seems quite a rational and levelheaded career option. Not exactly an act of tremendous faith to choose to serve a deity when that deity comes around regularly just to chill on weekends, y'know?

This vampire's complaining that his host gave up a position in the family business ... but on the other hand, he now has (or had) the power to literally cause the rocks to cry out and shape the earth to serve his every whim and raise cool stone castles from the mountains in mere hours. I dunno, vampire - maybe it's your priorities that are screwed up.

I think the Vatican would find recruitment easier if all their priests were given superpowers in return for saying their nightly prayers.

I think Gonetor's complain is more about his host's choice in his power source.
Praying to pebbles might give you cleric levels, but it's still not the same as worshipping a proper deity. Considering he (most likely) serves Hel that part might vex him more than the abandoned family business.

[Chei]

Yeah, the whole idea of running off to become a monk/priest doesn't quite line up in fantasy, since, sure, actual superpowers.

On the other hand, in fantasy, you have to actually make the sacrifices (literal sacrifices in some cases) to qualify for the magic power, with deep and palpable restrictions on your behavior from that day forward. This is in contrast to real life, where the vows are just words. Edit: Not to like, demean people who go down that route IRL. Just that nobody's granting clerical powers in return for worship.

Also, with the whole arrangement thing, it sounds like he came from a family that didn't need to have a spellcaster, but definitely needed someone for marriage pacts and filling positions in the family business. A merchant clan like that wants to keep it in the blood. If he betrays that, regardless of the reason, I can see them hating him, and he might hate them/himself as well.

I bet orders like the Creed have strict rules about using your clerical powers for profit - no just Plane Shifting to the Elemental Plane of Earth to dig up a diamond the size of a watermelon, as the Giant one suggested high-level wizards could do for money.

[Peelee]

That vampire complaining about the exarch running away from the family business - it occurs to me that while in the real world, giving up your life to run away to a purely- monastic spiritual existence might be viewed as drastic and somewhat irrational ... in a world where the gods and spirits are literally manifested in the world and you see them all the time and they give you superpowers, it actually seems quite a rational and levelheaded career option. Not exactly an act of tremendous faith to choose to serve a deity when that deity comes around regularly just to chill on weekends, y'know?

This vampire's complaining that his host gave up a position in the family business ... but on the other hand, he now has (or had) the power to literally cause the rocks to cry out and shape the earth to serve his every whim and raise cool stone castles from the mountains in mere hours. I dunno, vampire - maybe it's your priorities that are screwed up.

I think the Vatican would find recruitment easier if all their priests were given superpowers in return for saying their nightly prayers.

I dunno, it's not like it's not comparable to real life. A person who's born into a family that runs a small hardware store, for instance. Instead of getting into the family business and taking over one day, runs off to college and gets degrees in physics. That person can now solve complex problems and help further the bounds of science, but her family could still disapprove of going into academia when there was perfectly fine, honest work already open to her. And being able to even be her own boss one day, to boot! Why, she thinks she's too good for this, does she, just sitting in that ivory tower?

Not dissimilar.

[Jasdoif]

A person who's born into a family that runs a small hardware store, for instance.

I believe the Vanillaville Mini-Widgets scenario is should be the standard.

[8BitNinja]

Probably not picking up chicks... unless you mean using charisma to somehow rescue a hen and her young family from a cart careening wildly through the streets of a small town. Somehow I think dexterity would be the more appropriate stat, or maybe strength if you just stop the cart in its tracks.

Although I suppose you could use charisma to convince other people to leap in front of the cart to stop it and save the chicks. I suspect that would violate some Paladin code, though.

Meanderingly yours,
Q

Depending on how many chicks are needed to pick up, and possibly in a wood crate, strength would be a good stat for that.

[goto124]

Why not? There's nothing in the paladin code requiring them to be celibate, as far as I know.

better if been around block few times.

[JumboWheat01]

Depending on how many chicks are needed to pick up, and possibly in a wood crate, strength would be a good stat for that.

I never knew I wanted to see a paladin carrying a crate full of peeping chicks before now.

[B. Dandelion]

I think the really warped thing about vampire-Gontor's complaint is that if his host had gone along with his family's plans for him, and never become a priest of a religion with no deity and no protection at the Godsmoot, he (probably) never would have been in the position to become the unwilling host for a vampire spirit in the first place. He's upset about a decision that was vitally necessary to his own existence.

[Chei]

I think the really warped thing about vampire-Gontor's complaint is that if his host had gone along with his family's plans for him, and never become a priest of a religion with no deity and no protection at the Godsmoot, he (probably) never would have been in the position to become the unwilling host for a vampire spirit in the first place. He's upset about a decision that was vitally necessary to his own existence.

Same with Durkula. It seems like vampire spirits consider their own existence to be the ultimate justification that their hosts made terrible life choices, in a roundabout way. I am not even 100% that they're wrong about that.

[F.Harr]

Go door!

Defy convention!

You can do it!

You can be a Wall!

[B. Dandelion]

Same with Durkula. It seems like vampire spirits consider their own existence to be the ultimate justification that their hosts made terrible life choices, in a roundabout way. I am not even 100% that they're wrong about that.

You might expect him to be a bit more... gloatingly contemptuous of it rather than personally offended and upset. I think it might be indication of a somewhat fuzzy line of identity between the vampire spirit as a unique being and the host soul they're cribbing memories and emotions off of. Those first negative emotions the vampire absorbs, they strongly connect and identify with, so the vampire feels personally all the hurt that Gontor endured as a result of his choice. But not any corresponding happiness or ultimate vindication of hardship. The conclusion the vampires naturally draw from getting an impression of someone based foremost on the worst days of their life is that they're probably a terrible screw-up to have ended up where they did.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Those first negative emotions the vampire absorbs, they strongly connect and identify with, so the vampire feels personally all the hurt that Gontor endured as a result of his choice. But not any corresponding happiness or ultimate vindication of hardship. The conclusion the vampires naturally draw from getting an impression of someone based foremost on the worst days of their life is that they're probably a terrible screw-up to have ended up where they did.

I agree entirely with this post.

GW

[Calemyr]

There are a few things to consider regarding Malack.
1) As has already been mentioned, his statement was before Greg's reveal, and therefore was written not to spoil that. (That's the real reason, right there.)
2) Yaun-ti and Lizard Folk don't live very long lives, and Malack has been a vampire for 200+ years.
3) Malack is an affable, civilized cleric who tries to be morally neutral as opposed to the backwater shaman he was in life.

It seems very likely that, having lived as a vampire for twice (possibly 5x or more) as long as he was alive, he no longer defines himself as "the shaman's vampire", but as his own identity, with the shaman simply being a former phase of his existence that is as awkward and embarrassing to look back on as most people's teen years. In his case, he really has become his own person instead of a twisted mockery of the corpse he inhabits. If the Greg were to survive long enough for Durkon to be subsumed and then carry on longer than Durkon himself lived, he'd probably define himself by his host's identity, either.

And yeah, I think before they find their feet in their own rights (and even after that to a lesser degree), vampires define themselves by their hosts. Kind of like the Linear Guild, they justify their existence through opposition to the original. Malack is a clear example of this as well, as I've noted. His disdain for the Shaman's barbarism was clear, and in contrast he built himself as... well... Malack. An affable and civilized creature who fed on the blood of legally executed "criminals" rather than feral predation, who saw his victims as family rather than fodder. Likewise, Greg is vindictive, cruel, and motivated, three words that could never be used to describe Durkon, and the Exarch is an aggressive believer in following "the Plan" where his host eschewed his "Plan" in order to follow his heart. (Think about it, what's pissing the Exarch off? That the door isn't behaving like a door. That it's not doing what it's meant to. It's not following "the Plan". He's not focused on what he needs to do in there, or how they get past it, just that the door "would rather be a wall".)

As for Greg, I still hold that his reuse of Squeaky's philosophy is a fairly major reveal. I'm not saying the meaning of the words left an impact in his thinking, but rather phraseology of it clearly did, not unlike hearing part of a song in the morning and being unable to get it out of your head all day - to the point that you find yourself tapping your fingers to the beat and start humming it thoughtlessly. Or maybe that's just me. Anyway, the Giant has taken great care in making "voice" an important aspect to his story-telling. Most word bubbles from established characters wouldn't look right coming out of other characters because, even if that's something they would say, it's likely not how they would say it. In this story, characters typically don't crib the voice of another character unless they are evoking their mindset, mocking them, or pretending to be them. Greg isn't trying to deceive anyone at the moment, nor does he seem to notice what he just did. That's not an accidental thing. From a narrative standpoint, that's very intentional. It means that Durkon's memories are having a definite impact on Greg. Given that Durkon has been "subtly" indicating that he's working towards something, and that his choice of memories has integral to that goal, this little slip here seems likely to be the first clear and definite crack in Greg's control. When Greg finally gets his rematch with Roy, not only will Roy be more dangerous, but Durkon will be fighting on his side. And, if I'm right, it will be epic.