Dark Shadow's Surprisingly Well-Lit Random Banter #217

[Florian]

I thought you were European.

The meaning of "Student Loan" is a bit different around here and has nothing to do with the "tuition fee" of private universities. As a student, you can get a loan that will cover your basic cost of living during the time you study, if it is necessary, like for example when you have to move to another city and can´t continue living with your parents.

[2D8HP]

I keep getting out of context PMs from people I don't know.

Often just quotes from threads I haven't posted in, with gibberish subject lines.

Are the PM's sports related by any chance?

Oh, that thread title is magical. I wonder if we could improve famous quotes with that suffix.

I only regret, that I have but one life to lose for my country. Also, I hate sports.

And as imagination bodies forth
The forms of things unknown, the poet’s pen
Turns them to shapes and gives to airy nothing
A local habitation and a name.
Also, I hate sports.

Master your instrument, master the music, and then forget all that bull**** and just play. Also, I hate sports.

Science is organised knowledge. Wisdom is organised life. Also, I hate sports.

A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push. Also I hate sports.

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Also, I hate sports.

Outstanding. Absolutely outstanding.

I'm thrilled to bits that the "Also, I hate sports" mem I started is taking off..

Maybe Threads running amok have spread to PM's?

Threads used to run amok a lot in the 50s.

A thread that had been exposed to nuclear radiation attacked a small town in the American south.

It ate the sheriff and a couple of teenagers who were having a good time on Makeout Point.

They brought in the army, but nobody could stop it.

They say it had semantics of steel.

"He who fights threads that run amok should see to it that he himself does not become a thread who run amok. Also I hate sports."

Seriously, please share!

[Teddy]

The meaning of "Student Loan" is a bit different around here and has nothing to do with the "tuition fee" of private universities. As a student, you can get a loan that will cover your basic cost of living during the time you study, if it is necessary, like for example when you have to move to another city and can´t continue living with your parents.

Furthermore, the size of our loans tend to be an order of magnitude smaller when we don't have to pay for our university studies. After five years of studies with full loans*, I have roughly 40'000 USD in debt, and the interest rate is really low as well.

*Swedish study loans are issued by the state, so there's an upper limit to how much you're allowed to borrow every year.

[2D8HP]

Furthermore, the size of our loans tend...

Oh man, I want to be a young Swede!

[WarKitty]

Furthermore, the size of our loans tend to be an order of magnitude smaller when we don't have to pay for our university studies. After five years of studies with full loans*, I have roughly 40'000 USD in debt, and the interest rate is really low as well.

*Swedish study loans are issued by the state, so there's an upper limit to how much you're allowed to borrow every year.

That's actually a little higher than the average for an American student? The average on graduation is $37,172 as of 2016.

[Florian]

That's actually a little higher than the average for an American student? The average on graduation is $37,172 as of 2016.

The difference is that you get the loan to cover your basic living expenses during the time you study.

[WarKitty]

The difference is that you get the loan to cover your basic living expenses during the time you study.

That's normal over here as well.

[2D8HP]

That's actually a little higher than the average for an American student? The average on graduation is $37,172 as of 2016.

Why so little?

The closest major university to me is in Berkeley, were the average monthly rent for a studio apartment is $2,004. Even if you move back in with your parents 3 months out of the year, your still looking at over $72,000 over 4 years in rent alone.

[Amidus Drexel]

Why so little?

The closest major university to me is in Berkeley, were the average monthly rent for a studio apartment is $2,004. Even if you move back in with your parents 3 months out of the year, your still looking at over $72,000 over 4 years in rent alone.

1) California's cost of living is outrageous, and not really indicative of the rest of the country.
2) Studio apartments are the most expensive way to house yourself. You could easily cut that in half with a flatmate or two, and I wouldn't be surprised if you could find somewhere reasonable to live for ~600-800/month.

[WarKitty]

Why so little?

The closest major university to me is in Berkeley, were the average monthly rent for a studio apartment is $2,004. Even if you move back in with your parents 3 months out of the year, your still looking at over $72,000 over 4 years in rent alone.

I suspect very few people are entirely covering the cost on their own, either. A lot of people have parents helping them out. If your income is lower or you're considered independent, there's often grants or scholarships available. Lots of academic ones too (I went to college on a 60% of tuition scholarship).

[2D8HP]

...I wouldn't be surprised if you could find somewhere reasonable to live for ~600-800/month.

That's what rents were when my wife was a student in the early 1990's.

[Teddy]

That's actually a little higher than the average for an American student? The average on graduation is $37,172 as of 2016.

For five years of studies? I've been deceived...

I suspect very few people are entirely covering the cost on their own, either. A lot of people have parents helping them out. If your income is lower or you're considered independent, there's often grants or scholarships available. Lots of academic ones too (I went to college on a 60% of tuition scholarship).

Over here, at least the idea is that no one should have to help you out, and parental help is mostly just spoken of when the housing market is brought into question (the Swedish housing market is what you would expect of a country with larger cities, so especially freshmen moving away from family into one of the larger cities may meet a lot of trouble finding somewhere to live). Oh, and while scholarships do exist, they're mostly a remnant from the time before education became state funded, our meant to cover some odd expense not covered by the regular system.

ION:
Vacation over for this summer, so it's back to early mornings and long commuting times. Oh poor sleep numbness, how I've missed you~

It's a joke, of course, and its not like I haven't been treating my sleep pretty bad during these past four weeks either, but this specific sense of general numbness is something special for workdays, and while feeling fully rested is preferable, the sensation of perfect clarity on all your body's tiny shortcomings can be a bit jarring.

[Feytalist]

And here I am, having walked out of a five-year University degree with 0 debt to my name...

No parental help either. Monetary help, anyway. But I'm willing to admit that I'm definitely in the minority, even over here.


Mandatory leave at my company, now. So I guess I'm taking the next 4 months' worth of Fridays off. Sometimes it's not so bad, being me

[skinwants]

this is a public forum, where the current topic is nicely recorded for you, and not a conversation where you could have missed the beginning, please refrain from asking something to the effect of "What's the topic?". Please take the time to read up a bit first.very post should contain two visible, legible complete sentences, Subject and Predicate. C'mon, make your old English teachers proud.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Furthermore, the size of our loans tend to be an order of magnitude smaller when we don't have to pay for our university studies. After five years of studies with full loans*, I have roughly 40'000 USD in debt, and the interest rate is really low as well.

*Swedish study loans are issued by the state, so there's an upper limit to how much you're allowed to borrow every year.

That was about how much I had when I completed my 4 year degree. Its gone down since, but the interest levels are awful. My largest loan is 12%.

Boy, this Monday is hitting me hard.

[factotum]

And here I am, having walked out of a five-year University degree with 0 debt to my name...

I had no debt either, but that's because I went to university 25 years ago and they only introduced student loans in the last year I was there--since I had plenty of money to get me through the year I didn't bother taking one out.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I had no debt either, but that's because I went to university 25 years ago and they only introduced student loans in the last year I was there--since I had plenty of money to get me through the year I didn't bother taking one out.

I had no money, and financial aid only covered some of it. I ended up working my butt off to only need 10,000 in loans a year. My family couldn't pay for any of my college so I was pretty much on my own.

[Florian]

I had no money, and financial aid only covered some of it. I ended up working my butt off to only need 10,000 in loans a year. My family couldn't pay for any of my college so I was pretty much on my own.

*Dark Laughter*

Prior to reforms, I did my time in the Master/Apprentice Programm, which used to be a cornerstone of German education until the Bologna Reform killed it.

At age 15, started my apprenticeship in Advertisement and finished that with a Master Craftsmen´s degree in PR, which enabled me for advanced learning and a "Master Loan", which I spent on a BA in Economics (Part Time), later went on a privat university for a MA in Politics (Part Time). Right now, I´m looking towards booking a part time course in what I actually Love, which is Philosophy.

Honestly, I´m tired right now. At age 38, I´m working more than 20 continuous years, started my solo-entrepreneurship and advanced that to a mid-sized company. And no end in sight, neither in learning nor in achievement.

[2D8HP]

...I did my time in the Master/Apprentice Programm, which used to be a cornerstone of German education....

Probably not something we may discus much in depth here, but I've been interested in Germany's educational system since I read Thomas Geoghegan's Were You Born on the Wrong Continent?, and I'd be interested in learning more, unfortunately of the German I tried to learn when I was in High School in the 1980's, I can remember how to ask where Alois lives ("Wo wohnt Alois?"), but almost nothing else.

[Qwertystop]

My mum has expressed interest in playing video games. She doesn't have a clue. Any recommendations for a starting point? I was going to start off with Shovel Knight, nice and simple base mechanics.

[factotum]

Nice and simple base mechanics, maybe, but requiring good twitch reflexes and can be very hard in places? Not sure that's a good first choice. Also, without knowing what she likes, very hard to give an answer--I know for sure if my first experience of video games had been a platformer I'd probably not still be playing them forty years later!

[Feytalist]

The Sims, yo. It's basically Entry Level, the game. Plus it's addictive as hell.

[Teddy]

And here I am, having walked out of a five-year University degree with 0 debt to my name...

Believe it or not, I actually consider myself better off finacially for having taken those loans even though I lived with my family for most of my studies and didn't need the extra money. Since the interest rate was lower than you could get on a good bank account when I started (the latter has gone down since), I just piped the money from the former into the latter and called it a financial buffer. It'll come in handy when I get around to buying my first apartment, since a mortgage only is allowed to cover 85% of the buying price over here.

Mandatory leave at my company, now. So I guess I'm taking the next 4 months' worth of Fridays off. Sometimes it's not so bad, being me

Nice! Almost as good as we have it here.

That was about how much I had when I completed my 4 year degree. Its gone down since, but the interest levels are awful. My largest loan is 12%.

Ooof, that sounds painful...

Boy, this Monday is hitting me hard.

You have my sympathies. Before I even could get back to work, I had to kick my sleep schedule back by 6 hours in one go. Then I had to figure out what I was doing before my leave, only to realise I only had the harest parts of my project left, and none of the people I need to discuss them with have returned yet. I ended up spending most of my day staring at the screen wishing my office chair was a bed while my program ran a multi-hour test suit...

[Florian]

Probably not something we may discus much in depth here, but I've been interested in Germany's educational system since I read Thomas Geoghegan's Were You Born on the Wrong Continent?, and I'd be interested in learning more, unfortunately of the German I tried to learn when I was in High School in the 1980's, I can remember how to ask where Alois lives ("Wo wohnt Alois?"), but almost nothing else.

Our educational system is falling apart right now, due to EU-wide standardization and our politicians not being able to enact meaningful reforms to mesh the old and the new standards.

Basically, after Kindergarten and 4 years of elementary school, you have to chose one of 3 possible tracks: Worker school, middle class school, upper class school. (I´m using the old names for this, and yes, they reflect some of the inherent inequality of it).

- Worker School takes 5 years, gives broad education and is aimed to qualify for formal apprenticeship.
- Middle School takes 6 years, adds a specialized track (arts, economics, social..) and should aim to qualify either for formal apprenticeship or a focused upper school track.
- Upper school takes either 8 or 9 years, has a broad specialized track (math, physics, linguistics..) and should prepare for university.
(Special cases: Focused Upper School takes 2 years and 1 mandatory year of internship and also aims to prepare for university. Trade School can take 2 or 3 years and is either accompanying an apprenticeship or attended in "evening school" to expand upon an existing apprenticeship.)

When I write "formal apprenticeship", I mean what we call the "dual system". Companies and the educational system work together to train the workforce to an acceptable minimum standard. This always takes the form of a 3 years employment contract for hands-on experience, interspersed by formal education in "trade school" for broader work-related knowledge.

With two years of actual work experience, you can start training as a "Master Craftsman", which is basically lower management training, coupled with the basics of business laws, taxation, work-place security, accounting and certification to run certain kinds of businesses that are sensitive/freelance in them, as well as opening up the possibility for either focused upper school or university.

We don´t know the concept of "unskilled labor". Everyone has to go through the "dual system", from janitors to accountants, from a waitress to a nurse.

Important to talk about, because that also affects how universities used to function. With that high standard for workforce education, we skipped the "Bachelor" as unnecessary and you could only aim straight for a Master degree or drop out.

Now with the Bologna Reforms and the EU-wide standardization, we´ve got a problem. A lot of things that were part of the formal "dual system" are now also available as an Bachelor course. Right now you can be an apprenticed nurse or an studied nurse. That´s getting problematic, because the later counts as academics, en par with the former Focused Upper School model, but is far away from the actual work-related knowledge we came to expect from anyone coming up thru the apprentice system.

That leads to a related problem. Previously, "Trainee" programs were unnecessary because every non-student already came with 3 to 5 years of work experience.

Personally, I´m pretty unsatisfied with the situation.

[Rain Dragon]

Boy, this Monday is hitting me hard.

=(
Lame. Hope things get better for you though.

My mum has expressed interest in playing video games. She doesn't have a clue. Any recommendations for a starting point? I was going to start off with Shovel Knight, nice and simple base mechanics.

I'd say go with something that she thinks is cool/fun looking maybe? I don't think focusing /too/ much on whether the mechanics are newbie friendly is necessarily as important because a lot of games (that I've played at least) have a forgiving difficulty setting anyway. Even Starcraft for example (though I think the first game is rather fidgety).

Some of my first video games were rpgs like Zelda, Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy and random shorter multiplayer hotseat games like Worms. They weren't too difficult for me and caught my attention well because I liked the story and world of the RPGs and the goofiness and social part of Worms.

I'm sure you'll also be able to find something your mum likes. =)

[Qwertystop]

Nice and simple base mechanics, maybe, but requiring good twitch reflexes and can be very hard in places? Not sure that's a good first choice. Also, without knowing what she likes, very hard to give an answer--I know for sure if my first experience of video games had been a platformer I'd probably not still be playing them forty years later!

=(
Lame. Hope things get better for you though.



I'd say go with something that she thinks is cool/fun looking maybe? I don't think focusing /too/ much on whether the mechanics are newbie friendly is necessarily as important because a lot of games (that I've played at least) have a forgiving difficulty setting anyway. Even Starcraft for example (though I think the first game is rather fidgety).

Some of my first video games were rpgs like Zelda, Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy and random shorter multiplayer hotseat games like Worms. They weren't too difficult for me and caught my attention well because I liked the story and world of the RPGs and the goofiness and social part of Worms.

I'm sure you'll also be able to find something your mum likes. =)

Hm. Further thought... I think most of her reasoning is that she knows I play games, and am interested in making them, and, well, she's my mum. Family connection, et cetera. If there's anything more specific it's things I've talked about regarding how playing a game can get a feeling or a story or an experience across very differently than books or films.

Except I can't think of any games that do that well and sufficiently front-loaded, because the really good moments can never come until you've had at least a few hours to get to know the characters so you care when something happens to them, or the mechanics so a change in them hits hard. Usually in RPGs the first one is the climax of the first act. The only game that comes to mind where that's not several hours in is Undertale, which relies very heavily on the player already knowing how JRPGs traditionally work. RPGs also seem like a hard place to start for someone who hasn't even got the feel of a game controller yet.

(Also, I currently only have access to a 3ds and a Switch)

[factotum]

it's things I've talked about regarding how playing a game can get a feeling or a story or an experience across very differently than books or films.

Except I can't think of any games that do that well and sufficiently front-loaded, because the really good moments can never come until you've had at least a few hours to get to know the characters so you care when something happens to them

Bastion? It's a fairly simple game mechanically, it'll teach her some stuff about how RPGs work, and the story is being constantly fed to you by narration that changes according to what you're doing. It also looks beautiful if you like that sort of cartoony style. When you say you only have a 3DS and a Switch, though, do you really not have any sort of PC?

[LaZodiac]

Bastion? It's a fairly simple game mechanically, it'll teach her some stuff about how RPGs work, and the story is being constantly fed to you by narration that changes according to what you're doing. It also looks beautiful if you like that sort of cartoony style. When you say you only have a 3DS and a Switch, though, do you really not have any sort of PC?

Bastion's a bit on the hard side.

Throw basically any Kirby game at her. It's adorable and incredibly fun.

[goto124]

When you say you only have a 3DS and a Switch, though, do you really not have any sort of PC?

Or rather, a PC that has good processing power to run games? Lag can artifically increase the difficulty of any game.

If you have a smartphone, how about mobile games? They tend to be geared towards casual gamers, and a good app won't force you to wait X hours for more energy to continue playing or somesuch.

[FinnLassie]

Qwertystop:
Hidden Object Games. Full of puzzles, always has some sort of a mystery solving story behind it and most often has a female protagonist which might be a helpful thing when getting into games as a woman. The back stories are definitely clichés, but I personally find them extremely entertaining. Point & Click is a good start.