The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    "The people who drive significantly slower than the speed limit are the people who get into accidents more frequently"

    does not mean, AT ALL, the same thing as

    "It is more dangerous, for a given driver of a given skill and ability, to drive significantly slower than the speed limit".
    Context definitely matters. If you were to look at the accident statistics I'm sure they'd show most accidents happen at low speed--because most accidents happen where there's most traffic, which will generally be in towns or on overcrowded motorways. A clear motorway or freeway is one of the safest roads to travel on, despite also being the fastest, because everyone's going in the same direction at roughly the same speed and so there's less opportunity for accidents.

    (Of course, when an accident *does* happen on such a road it'll usually be a big one, but those are very, very rare).

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Returning to the working site driver: is it possible that he was worried about a truck or a working vehicle coming out of the working site?

    Option B, he could have been texting.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Your conclusion is totally wrong; Chen is correct.

    "The people who drive significantly slower than the speed limit are the people who get into accidents more frequently"

    does not mean, AT ALL, the same thing as

    "It is more dangerous, for a given driver of a given skill and ability, to drive significantly slower than the speed limit".

    The former statement is factual, the latter is incorrect. Nervous, inexperienced, paranoid, oblivious, blind drivers are have a higher-than-average odds of getting into accidents, and they obviously also tend to drive slowly compared to average.
    There is a lot wrong with this post Lio.

    First, I haven't said or implied anywhere that the first of your quotes means the same thing "AT ALL" as the second of your quotes.

    Second, your post suggests that Chen and I were in disagreement, ignoring my reply to Chen at post #45, where I agree with him To quote my reply to him: "That's a good point - it may be that the reason slow drivers are more dangerous is not because they are driving more slowly, but because of the other factors you mention."

    Third, you have not actually demonstrated that either of the quotes you make is "totally wrong". At best you might demonstrate that nothing posted in this thread supports either statement, but that is not sufficient to prove it wrong. I wouldn't usually call you out on something like that, but when are going to tell someone else they are wrong its best ot have your ducks lined up.

    I'm not going to go too far into your bold statement at the end about drivers with all those characteristics obviously driving more slowly (I suspect at least some are wrong), but I do want to ask you where you got your statistics that all those blind drivers have a higher-than-average odds of getting into accidents?
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2017-08-03 at 05:47 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Perhaps you're not one to quibble with precise definitions of words, but he was talking about tailgaters, not "speed demon drivers." The key difference--the latter encompasses folks that drive quickly in general, with the strong implication that they're doing so beyond a reasonable level of safety, while the former describes a specific behavior, deliberately following too closely for the given speed.
    I understand the difference between the words, but I think it is pretty clear from Gnoman's post that he was saying that tailgaters and speed demon drivers were one and the same. He says the reason he slows down when a tail-gater is behind him is because "because those speed-demon drivers have almost killed me on several occasions by trying to whip around me" (my emphasis). See his post #39.

    Slowing down isn't only about frustrating those drivers--it's about taking yourself out of a dangerous situation. If you slow down gradually and deliberately, you can choose a pace that will allow them to react despite their proximity. If you keep driving as you were driving, with them following at an unsafe distance, you run the risk of a much more dangerous collision if you have to stop suddenly in response to an unforeseen road hazard. Yes, from a liability perspective, the guy behind you will be at fault anyway, but from a practical and safety perspective, you're the poor bastard who will be sandwiched between a guy who's driving too close and too fast, and whatever unavoidable object suddenly appeared in front of you.
    There's a couple of assumptions here.

    First, that by slowing down the tail-gater will not draw closer - most drivers (including most tailgaters) leave a greater following distance when travelling fast than when travelling slow. If we take the 2-second rule as best practice, a tailgater may travel only one second behind you - that is a lot closer at slow speed than at fast speed, so slowing down doesn't actually remove the risk.

    Second, it assumes that the tailgater will simply accept that he or she must also now travel significantly lower than the speed limit without apparent good reason. I think also very likely the tailgater will be frustrated (even if you don't intend it) by your low speed and this may lead him or her to overtake in unsafe circumstances. Whether this is a problem depends on the nature of the road your on - less of a problem on a multi-lane road (where overtaking is simple) than on a single lane road which requires pulling into the oncoming lane to overtake.

    So, I'm not convinced it is actually safer to slow down significantly below the speed limit here. But that is a little irrelevant, because my response addressed Gnoman, and it is pretty clear that he IS doing it to frustrate those drivers. See post #4: "Of course, that is coming from somebody who will slow down if somebody is tailgating me, so I have a bit of a bias."

    As for "whipping around you," I frankly don't care. Slowing down gradually gives the tailgater an opportunity to pass you more quickly and safely than he would if you remained at speed. If he's simply in a hurry and has a different sense of safe following distance than you, he'll be grateful for a chance to get ahead of you, and you'll get out of an unsafe situation. If, however, he's the kind of jerk who feels the need to retaliate against any perceived slight, then yes, slowing down might set him off. But so will pretty much anything else you do. If you keep going the same speed you're going, and he keeps tailgating but still refuses to pass you, you'll probably be annoying him. If you suddenly have to brake for something and he hits you because he's following too close, he'll probably blame you for it. Heck, if you accelerate to a speed that you find unsafe in order to put some distance between you and your tailgater, he'll still probably find some way to interpret that as a provocation on your part.
    Well you should care, because a person who "whips around you" is likely to endanger you more than a tailgater, by hitting you or running you off the road as he/she pulls back into your lane.

    I suppose it depends whether you think you slowing down is likely to make the passing maneuvre safer (because it will take less distance to pass you) or more dangerous (because the tailgeter will be more impatient to get past a slow moving car, so will take more risks). I tend to think the latter, but I suppose that's your call to make.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Context definitely matters. If you were to look at the accident statistics I'm sure they'd show most accidents happen at low speed--because most accidents happen where there's most traffic, which will generally be in towns or on overcrowded motorways. A clear motorway or freeway is one of the safest roads to travel on, despite also being the fastest, because everyone's going in the same direction at roughly the same speed and so there's less opportunity for accidents.

    (Of course, when an accident *does* happen on such a road it'll usually be a big one, but those are very, very rare).
    The bolded part reflects my thoughts. I don't think that driving slowly creates greater danger if everyone else also drives slower. I think that a few people driving slowly while others drive much faster creates the danger.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    You know what I hate? Motorcycles that keep accelerating while I cross the crosswalk. Why? >:@
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Returning to the working site driver: is it possible that he was worried about a truck or a working vehicle coming out of the working site?

    Option B, he could have been texting.
    Nah, none of them were moving, all the guys were out working with equipment from what I saw(and I saw pretty clearly, given the speed we were driving). The worst part of it is, the stretch we were on, had no curves or anything, it was pretty much all straight road the entire 3 miles(maybe one small curve, thinking about it), so it's not like visibility was an issue or anything either.

    @Xyril: Yeah, I don't really think he was deliberately antagonizing me, I doubt he even realized how annoyed I was until it ended and I passed him(which, might I add, I had to do in the slow lane, because he stayed in the fast lane for approximately 400 yards past the road work before I passed him, and as I glanced back in my rearview mirror, he didn't get over at all after that either, he forced every single vehicle and semi to pass him in the slow lane). Just a really, really crappy driver that was oblivious to the rest of the world around him, and probably old to boot(I didn't get that good of a glance as I passed, if I had to guess, I'd say mid-50's maybe?).
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    So the only time you go significantly slower than the speed limit is when it is most dangerous to do so? I think you are much more likely to be killed by a speed demon driver (either by them rear ending you while you slow down to teach them a lesson, or because they are more likely to try to "whip around you" if you have slowed down to teach them a lesson). if you slow to significantly slower than the speed limit to frustrate those drivers you disapprove of.

    Quote Originally Posted by blunk View Post
    One good reason to slow down (carefully) when being tailgated is to shorten stopping distance and thus make it less likely that you'll be rear-ended if something runs out in front of you. Of course you also balance it with concerns about slowing down too much and being a road hazard to people coming up fast behind the tailgater.

    Back in the 1980's the California Drivers Handbook that you get from the DMV recommended slowing down slowly (don't suddenly slam on breaks) as the way to respond to being tailgated. They also recommended a minimum of a four second following distance. Knowing this was part of the test to get a drivers license.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    I'm also in the "slow down for tailgaters" camp. Particularly when I'm driving at (or above!) the speed limit and they're right up my back bottom, I derive something of a perverse pleasure from doing so.

    Whether it's actually safer, I don't know, but when they're so close that I notice them, it's hard for them to get any closer anyway. So if I do brake suddenly and they hit me, at least it'll be at a lower speed, and thus less likely to result in injury. It also seems more likely to annoy them, which is good, because tailgaters deserve to be annoyed. And, by going more slowly, it makes it easier for them - or at least more likely that they'll try - to overtake, so I won't have to worry about them any more.

    But mostly it's to annoy them.
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    In this context, what is the reason tailgaters tailgate?

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    In this context, what is the reason tailgaters tailgate?
    Some people are just bad drivers and will taigate as a matter of course. Some people tailgate because they want to overtake the person in front. Either way, they shouldn't be doing it, but if there are multiple lanes, and the person being tailgated is in the passing lane, that person should change lanes.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    In this context, what is the reason tailgaters tailgate?
    I imagine it's a passive-aggressive "You're going too slow, hurry up!" from the guy tailgating, at least when it happens on multi-lane roads. On country roads there's actually a legit reason for it, because if you're about to overtake someone you want to spend as little time as possible on the wrong side of the road--thus you get closer to them than you otherwise would; that's only valid if you're on a piece of road where you have a chance of overtaking, of course, tailgating through twisty blind bends is just ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Back in the 1980's the California Drivers Handbook that you get from the DMV recommended slowing down slowly (don't suddenly slam on breaks) as the way to respond to being tailgated. They also recommended a minimum of a four second following distance. Knowing this was part of the test to get a drivers license.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    http://www.wikihow.com/Handle-Tailgaters-on-the-Road

    This website has some hints on dealing with Tailgaters, although I can understand why some people would find the answers that suggest kowtowing to the tailgaters (pulling over to let them pass) obhectionable.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Where I live, driving too slow, blocking the left lane or reducing speed to shake tailgaters are as serious infractions as tailgating or breaking the speed limit. We also have three different speed limits: Maximum (red sign), recommended (blue) and minimum (also blue). You´re actually not allowed on certain roads or highways if your vehicle can´t do a certain minimum speed (unless you get an official exception, like heavy-duty trucks, but those need an escort).
    These are necessary precautions when having a generally high speed limit and a lot go highways without limits.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Where I live, driving too slow, blocking the left lane or reducing speed to shake tailgaters are as serious infractions as tailgating or breaking the speed limit. We also have three different speed limits: Maximum (red sign), recommended (blue) and minimum (also blue). You´re actually not allowed on certain roads or highways if your vehicle can´t do a certain minimum speed (unless you get an official exception, like heavy-duty trucks, but those need an escort).
    These are necessary precautions when having a generally high speed limit and a lot go highways without limits.
    Germany, with its high speed limits, is pretty close to the gold standard in terms of road fatalities /inhabitant, /vehicle, or /kilometer traveled.**

    It also suggests that the German roading authorities consider that traveling low speeds when other cars are travelling at high speeds is dangerous.

    ** From experience in this thread, I think I need to clarify that I am not saying the high speed limits cause the low fatality count. Only that high speed limits do not appear to be completely inconsistent with

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Germany, with its high speed limits, is pretty close to the gold standard in terms of road fatalities /inhabitant, /vehicle, or /kilometer traveled.**
    Germany is also (in)famous for having the hardest drivers license exam of Europe (and likely the world). Unlike in the USA, where everything I have seen and heard suggests that their test are a joke (a friend was given a DL after invading the opposite lane on a left turn, missing a stop sign, and - to hear him tell - a bunch of other violations any of which would be an instant fail in my country. He also tells me that the theoretical was so shallow he passed it easily without studying). There are also rumours than in some of the less populated states, all you need to do to get your license is go to the local sheriff and pay the fee: no exam required (but this might be an urban legend)

    My own theory is that the US can't make their test harder, because you can't survive without a car, so it is economically unfeasible to stop the worst drivers from owning one - they'll drive anyway. In Germany and other countries with solid public transportation options, the government has a lot more incentive to make sure anyone allowed to drive death machines knows what they are doing.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Germany, with its high speed limits, is pretty close to the gold standard in terms of road fatalities /inhabitant, /vehicle, or /kilometer traveled.**

    It also suggests that the German roading authorities consider that traveling low speeds when other cars are travelling at high speeds is dangerous.

    ** From experience in this thread, I think I need to clarify that I am not saying the high speed limits cause the low fatality count. Only that high speed limits do not appear to be completely inconsistent with
    Are the speed limits in Germany in general higher than in other countries? Serious question. I only did some quick reading but my impression was that the various limits in place are not that diffenrent than in other countries. Only exception is of course the Autobahn, of which about two thirds are in theory without a limit. Constant construction work, bad road conditions and high traffic mean however a lot of temporary limits.

    I assumed speeding was a major cause of accidents on the Autobahn, but could not find any data to support that or even if more accidents happen there than on other roads (normalised for road length).


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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Germany is also (in)famous for having the hardest drivers license exam of Europe (and likely the world). Unlike in the USA, where everything I have seen and heard suggests that their test are a joke (a friend was given a DL after invading the opposite lane on a left turn, missing a stop sign, and - to hear him tell - a bunch of other violations any of which would be an instant fail in my country. He also tells me that the theoretical was so shallow he passed it easily without studying). There are also rumours than in some of the less populated states, all you need to do to get your license is go to the local sheriff and pay the fee: no exam required (but this might be an urban legend)

    My own theory is that the US can't make their test harder, because you can't survive without a car, so it is economically unfeasible to stop the worst drivers from owning one - they'll drive anyway. In Germany and other countries with solid public transportation options, the government has a lot more incentive to make sure anyone allowed to drive death machines knows what they are doing.

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    I actually have no idea of the relaitive difficulties of the driving test (not being from either Germany or USA), except I will say that USA has very good public transport options in some urban areas, although perhaps not in some rural areas.

    But it is clear that high speed limits does not automatically mean more fatalities - and that extends to a per capita basis. Because a per capita basis does not distinguish between drivers and non-drivers, it does not seem to me that excluding people from driving 9through testing) is a large reason for this.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Are the speed limits in Germany in general higher than in other countries? Serious question. I only did some quick reading but my impression was that the various limits in place are not that diffenrent than in other countries. Only exception is of course the Autobahn, of which about two thirds are in theory without a limit. Constant construction work, bad road conditions and high traffic mean however a lot of temporary limits.

    I assumed speeding was a major cause of accidents on the Autobahn, but could not find any data to support that or even if more accidents happen there than on other roads (normalised for road length).
    I haveno personal knowledge, but instead was relying on Florian's comment (he is a German resident):
    These are necessary precautions when having a generally high speed limit and a lot go highways without limits.
    So it sounds like the speed limit is generally high in addition to their being no limit on the autobahn.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Are the speed limits in Germany in general higher than in other countries? Serious question.
    Differences in infrastructure design. This is a very densely populated country, generating a lot of traffic, so things are designed to always funnel traffic to the next "higher order", meaning L > B > A with escalating speed limits and naturally more lanes. (The letters correspond to "street types" and allowed speed limits. In short, any street will connect you to an Autobahn (A)). So, yes, if you follow instructions (or your navi), you will use streets that have a very high speed limit.

    You will find that we actually rank very low on accidents /vehicle /distance. A homogenous traffic flow will create fewer "obstacles" and reduce the need for drivers to actually react, reducing the amount of fatal accidents.

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Germany is also (in)famous for having the hardest drivers license exam of Europe (and likely the world). Unlike in the USA, where everything I have seen and heard suggests that their test are a joke



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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Germany is also (in)famous for having the hardest drivers license exam of Europe (and likely the world). Unlike in the USA, where everything I have seen and heard suggests that their test are a joke.
    I had to take the test twice. First time, on the driving section, I got this super strict guy who ran me through every single part of the test and failed me because when I parallel parked, I was a bit too far from the curb. Second time, a couple weeks later, I got the same guy, and was dreading it. He apparently didn't recognize me (understandable, he sees hundreds of people a day), and just mentioned how he was ready for the weekend so he could go fishing. So I slipped into redneck mode, started talking to him about fishing, and he ran me through maybe a third of what he made me do the first time (which I liked, because I'd just about run out of things to say about fishing by then). Easy pass.
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    If you are in the left lane and not actively passing a car in the right lane you need to move over.
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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    I will be the first to admit that I can be an overly aggressive driver at times, although if I end up getting significantly over the speed limit unintentionally, I try to get back down as soon s possible. However, I have one pet peeve with slower drivers that I truly think is valid: Those that merge slowly from well designed merge lanes.

    My reason for this is that the purpose for a merge lane is to get up to speed, sight where you will merge based on the traffic flow on the main road, and merge. If you are going 60 kph (37 mph) when looking at merging onto a 100 kph (62 mph) road, once you merge, the people behind you that were attempting to get up to 100 kph are now trying to get up to 100 kph and merge onto a 100 kph road without the advantage of distance and visibility the entire merge lane is supposed to provide to make the task easier. In heavy traffic flow, this can cause a phantom traffic jam in a merge lane, which can potentially spill onto the main road.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ogre in the Playground
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    London, UK

    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Yes, anything that forces the driver behind you to have to break suddenly / not-otherwise-necessarily is bad, excepting only having to brake suddenly yourself to avoid an unforeseeable potential collision. Be it erratic joining or erratic lane changes.

    I think, on the whole we can agree on both this and bullying options such as the aforementioned tailgating as being bad things, right?

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddyfool View Post
    Yes, anything that forces the driver behind you to have to break suddenly / not-otherwise-necessarily is bad, excepting only having to brake suddenly yourself to avoid an unforeseeable potential collision. Be it erratic joining or erratic lane changes.

    I think, on the whole we can agree on both this and bullying options such as the aforementioned tailgating as being bad things, right?
    I can agree to that. If I seemed a bit confrontational in my last point, I apologize. I have had that problem every so often driving to and from work that drives me nuts. Caution I can understand and appreciate. Doing the slow merge when you have around half a kilometer of free space between you and the approaching vehicle front is a bit much.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Silverraptor's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    The reason I take for ever getting up to speed limit is because my car is all electric Nissan Leaf 2015 model and getting to speed limit slowly actually extends my range per charge.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Apr 2017

    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh man, if you wanna talk about jerk drivers....

    So this one morning, I hop on the interstate to go to work. I hit the on ramp, and I see a traffic jam. For some reason, they closed the left lane and only the right lane was open about a mile up ahead, but it's only closed for maybe a couple car lengths, so everything's clear after that. I merge into the right lane, right in front of this nice SUV. Right lane is understandably congested, and I notice that behind me in the left lane is a semi, with nobody between him and the lane closure. The odd thing is, he's doing roughly the same speed as the congested right lane, which is slighly more than a crawl. I know about the zipper method, and I figure if this guy is going almost as slow in his ~mile long free lane, he's probably not looking to zipper, and is just wanting to merge into the right lane.
    I may be responding to an old post, but I suspect I know why this happened.

    Certainly in my country, it is very common when one lane is closed, or two lanes merge into one, that 90% of drivers will get in lane early, no problem. But that other 10% of drivers will see everyone else merging, but see a half-mile clear lane, and gun right to the end, effectively jumping the queue to get through.

    My dad is a lorry driver, and when I used to go with him as a kid, I saw it was quite a common lorry-driver behavoir when this started happening for one to pull back in to the open-but-closing lane, but maintain speed with the congested lane, effectively becoming a roadblock to the impatient drivers, stopping them from speeding to the front of the line, and slowing everybody else up.

    The behavoir of your semi seems to follow with that, with the unfortunate ending probably being a case of miscommunication - you weren't aware what he was doing (so weren't understanding his actions), but had slowed up a couple of times to create a return-space for him, so he presumably assumed you were letting him know you would let him back in when you reached the merge. Of course, that wasn't what you were communicating, and with lorries having difficult visability at the best of times (if you were in the spot between his passenger door, and about 2/3 down his trailer length, you were in his blind spot), there was a possibility he couldn't see you, and just assumed you were letting him in as you had previously offered.

    Of course, he may have just been a moron

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why do people take forever to accelerate to the speed limit after a red light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    I may be responding to an old post, but I suspect I know why this happened.

    Certainly in my country, it is very common when one lane is closed, or two lanes merge into one, that 90% of drivers will get in lane early, no problem. But that other 10% of drivers will see everyone else merging, but see a half-mile clear lane, and gun right to the end, effectively jumping the queue to get through.
    The 90% of drivers are wrong, and the 10% are right. This is the zipper method I talked about. It's much more efficient to have people in both lanes until the lane closure, and then merge. After all, if the lane closure is only 50 feet, why would one want a single-lane road for half a mile?

    Regardless, even if he was trying to block people, he still drove the cop off the road (the cop who, to the best of his knowledge, was just some nobody who was where he wanted to be). Even if he tried to police others - and in effect made things worse - he had no problem being as horrible as possible himself. I cut that trucker zero slack.

    ETA:

    Tell your friends!

    ....seriously, tell your friends. It's best for every driver to be aware of this
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-08-14 at 07:10 AM.
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