Why do people hate fanfictions?

[Tyndmyr]

If someone wishes to read actually good fanfic, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is decent. Mother of Learning is also a fun read, and might qualify as fan fic of D&D. Maybe? It's fuzzy, but can certainly be read that way.

But yeah, 99.x% of fanfic is crap.

Sure, commercial movies are sometimes crap too. We also bash those. Routinely.

[Lord Joeltion]

Speaking as someone that doesn't hate fanfiction but does dislike it, the main issue (to me) is author voice. I tried e.g. Harry Potter fan-fiction, and skipped sturgeon's law by first finding well-recommended pieces. But even the ones that were considered "good" didn't feel like Harry Potter.

GW

That is, in my opinion, a great deal of why fanfictions are underestimated, both by readers AND authors. Working with source material may look easy on paper, but it isn't necessarily so. For instance, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is probably one of the best pieces of literature I ever read, but that is both because the author is a very smart writer AND because he fleshed out relevant canon characters without actually changing them in their essence. Some are deeply disfigured beyond recognition (Harry), some were upgraded from background to actual characters (Zabini) but a whole lot of them were treated with due respect and masterfully handled in the new setting the author proposed, with no relevant changes in their attitude or character (Ron, McGonagal, Snape, Flitwick, Hermione, Neville...). Of course, the story (and tone) is completely alien to Potterverse, but he still manages to make you feel like reading a "Harry Potter" fiction; or maybe a "What if HP was a different genre?".

It is awfully difficult to properly handle characters/setting that aren't yours, mainly because you aren't the author (duh) and as such you have to first overcome what I call the "Reader's Bias". Next challenges depend on what type of work we are talking about, but basically, the "you can't write smarter than you", "you can't talk about the unknown" and the "you can't change without distortion" rules usually apply. I am of the opinion that a fanfiction is pointless if you can't recognize some of the original work inside the story, even in the form of a hint. Sure, Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes is probably a "homage" to Edgar Allan Poe's Monsieur Dupin, but at least he tried to play his story as a completely different work instead of a tie-in or "fan remake" of the original. Which ultimately gives it even more value than if it was presented as a simple fanfiction series. Because it sucks as a fanfiction. Dupin is written so much better

[Knaight]

This is obviously a ridiculously oversimplified and broken model in a lot of ways, but consider quality as a quantitative aspect of a work, ranging from 1-10*. Different mediums will have different quality distributions across their works, and while it's obviously and superficially true that there's going to be at least some 1s and at least some 10s in any medium with a lot of works. There's also a set of filters for just about any medium, and while some of them are medium specific there's a few that crop up a lot. Notably:
Production Difficulty: How hard is it to make anything in the medium?
Publishing Difficulty: How hard is it to actually get something published?
Marketing Difficulty: How hard is it to get something that people actually hear about?

These screens aren't really three separate screens (it's obviously harder to produce something publishable), and feed into each other, but again this is an extremely oversimplified model intended to demonstrate a point.

At the very first step in production, someone idly wanting to make something, there's a huge number of works that would be on the 1 end of the range, and very, very few 10s. However, fan fiction is already prone to skewing low, as it's just easier to make a derivative work than an original one when working at a low standard. The production difficulty screen helps there - writing a novel or assembling a movies worth of film takes a fair amount of work, writing a short story or the typical fan fiction takes a whole lot less. The screen still helps regardless, but after screening fanfiction comes away skewed lower than most other mediums. Then there's publishing, where it's worth finely parsing genres a bit. Self published works are distinct from those published conventionally, and when people talk about short stories, or novels, or film, it's usually those published through actual publishers being talked about. Fan fiction doesn't have much of a screen here at all, and so the skew towards being bad gets yet more pronounced. Then there's marketing, and this one is huge. There's no shortage of staggeringly bad novels, or short stories, or movies, but most of them just aren't going to pop up on anyone's radar. Fan fiction has this screen, but it's a lot weaker due to the absence of a lot of institutions that push better works. To use just one example, all of the rest of these are old and have been seriously studied for a while, producing an academic canon. Said canon still has its 1s, but that screen highlights a lot of really excellent works. Fanfiction doesn't have that.

This disparity becomes really obvious when looking at works that might technically fit within the definition of Fanfiction, but that are essentially never classified as that. There's all sorts of characters that made a big cultural impact, and that show up in work after work, retelling after retelling. Just how often has King Arthur appeared? What about Sun Wukong (a.k.a. Monkey)? Yet when subjected to the more rigorous screening systems of things that aren't fanfiction, the quality skews higher, and thus these avoid the stigma fanfiction has.

*These numbers are totally arbitrary.

[137beth]

[QUOTE=S@tanicoaldo;22266983
I also think he is refereeing to fanfics as every form of non-original story, for example since the writer of Star Wars: The Force Awakens is not the creator of that universe a lot of people think it can be considered fan fiction, [/QUOTE]

You know, I hear that claim about TFA fairly frequently from people trying to explain why they think it is bad, and it makes me wonder if they've really thought through the implications of such a claim. Star Wars, the original, was written by George Lucas. The novilization, which was actually published before the movie was released, was written by Alan Dean Foster. The Force Awakens was not written by Lucas, so it is called fan fiction by people who dislike it, often with an accompanying statement along the lines of "and fan fiction is bad, hence TFA is bad." But The Empire Strikes Back was written by Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasden, people who were not involved with the original. By the same standard used to declare TFA "fan fiction," ESB is also fan fiction! Yet, for some reason, I never hear people calling episode V fan fiction

[goto124]

What about Sun Wukong (a.k.a. Monkey)? Yet when subjected to the more rigorous screening systems of things that aren't fanfiction, the quality skews higher, and thus these avoid the stigma fanfiction has.

Arguably, the screening for really old works such as Journey to the West is time itself. There probably were hundreds of fanfics (and other stories) produced in the distant past, but because they were of poor quality, no one bothered to keep track of them. So we won't find any historical records mentioned such low quality fanfics 500 years later.

At least, not any specific fanfic. One wonders if there's a historical record of someone complaining about the low quality of fanfics 500 years ago...

Interestingly enough, Wikipedia states:

Journey to the West is a Chinese novel published in the 16th century

[Knaight]

Arguably, the screening for really old works such as Journey to the West is time itself. There probably were hundreds of fanfics (and other stories) produced in the distant past, but because they were of poor quality, no one bothered to keep track of them. So we won't find any historical records mentioned such low quality fanfics 500 years later.

Time is a huge screening factor, and it doesn't even need to be that old a work. This particularly stands out with music, where the music remembered from a particular decade (even as recently as 2000-2010) doesn't particularly resemble top 40 lists from every year in that decade, because they have been winnowed. JttW just also has a bunch of modern adaptations, most of which aren't considered fan fiction despite effectively fitting within the category.

[FinnLassie]

I loved fanfiction when I was around the age of 12 to 16. Why? Because I felt like it filled some holes in different stories I read. This of course meant that I searched for specific fanfics that suited my point of view and wants for series... for example at one point I gorged on Hermione x Draco fanfics, at other times Cho Chang hatefiction. Yeah. I hated her when I was 12. I wrote some short pieces, some canon and some not, mostly surrounding the Harry Potter books and films.

Currently I feel like I don't need those fullfilments. I just don't feel the need to go and fill in holes, like pairings I'd rather see happening. I do not condemn the fanfiction culture, I only condemn obsessive and toxic fandoms that can't get their **** together. Honestly, I can't stand it when adults, sometimes way past their 30s, go around bashing the "new generation" of fanfic writers. Let the kids be. ... right, maybe I spend too much time on Tumblr at times.

Now that I think of it, I made fanfiction before I even knew what it was. I drew "comics" where I was one of the Sailor Senshi, or made up new dance coreographies for TLC and Janet Jackson, making them cameo with each other. Fanfics are fun. Writing Mary Sue level fanfics was hella fun, no matter the backlash and my rageposts at the haters!

Currently the only fanfic I like is Harry Potter Becomes A Communist. It's sorta dying, but holy sweet Jesus it's worth the read, at least the first 20ish chapters I'd say. It's a complete ****show and falls to the same genre as My Immortal (which I am still yet to read). They're short, so no worries about the chapter count.

[Bohandas]

Again, what I want to know is why, if the problem is that the good is innundated by the bad, there isn't similar hatred and ill-will towards mobile apps, which have exactly the same thing going on. Did you know that there are no less than three entirely fake (like not even any resemblance) ports of Notepad++ on Google Play and two of them are clearly somebody else reuploading the first fake port. It's way easier to find a readable fanfiction than a working app, and yet everyone loves mobile software and hates fanfiction

[2D8HP]

Currently the only fanfic I like is Harry Potter Becomes A Communist. It's sorta dying, but holy sweet Jesus it's worth the read, at least the first 20ish chapters

Thanks to your recommendation, I just the first three chapters of Harry Potter Becomes A Communist.

Only those with FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS will not find it hilarious.

MAGIC POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

[FinnLassie]

Thanks to your recommendation, I just the first three chapters of Harry Potter Becomes A Communist.

Only those with FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS will not find it hilarious.

MAGIC POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

Your amusedness makes me think you are part of the upper class. Only they would have such an attitude towards the struggles of the working class! What are you, sympathising the bourgeoise with Hermione?

[kyoryu]

Thanks to your recommendation, I just the first three chapters of Harry Potter Becomes A Communist.

Only those with FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS will not find it hilarious.

MAGIC POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

Oh. My. God.

I'm loving it.

[Chen]

Again, what I want to know is why, if the problem is that the good is innundated by the bad, there isn't similar hatred and ill-will towards mobile apps, which have exactly the same thing going on. Did you know that there are no less than three entirely fake (like not even any resemblance) ports of Notepad++ on Google Play and two of them are clearly somebody else reuploading the first fake port. It's way easier to find a readable fanfiction than a working app, and yet everyone loves mobile software and hates fanfiction

Fan fiction is part of a larger whole. It almost necessarily is built off the success and/or popularity of an existing world/universe/storyline. Apps are generally standalone. There's tons of garbage apps out there but you tend to narrow the focus when you're looking for one and you tend to only need 1 of a particular type of app (aside games I guess). I very much disagree about the "way easier to find a readable fanfiction than a working app" statement. I'll grant I use the Apple store for my iphone and ipad but I've never had trouble finding an app for some function I need (map, calculator, instant messenger, stud finder etc). Video games are an exception I'd say but finding a good video game app vs a good video game for my PC is a pretty similar situation so I can't say that's an app issue.

[BWR]

If someone wishes to read actually good fanfic, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is decent.

The world building is significantly better than Rowling's (not hard to do, really) but the author is not quite as clever as he thinks he is and spends way too much time both as himself and as RHarry, patting himself on the back for being so clever and rational.

The probably defunct Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (two complete stories and an abandoned third) is a comedy about a D&D 3.5 munchkin come to Potterverse. Hilarity ensues.
Sailor Hellblazer was surprisingly amusing, where everyone's favorite chain smoking, foul language-using, cynical and certain-death-to-his-friends magician becomes a Sailor Scout. It managed to be mostly faithful to both universes.

I got into fanfics with SW vs ST. Some of them were decent, most were crappy and just the author's wanking whichever side they wanted to win. After a period of reading a ton of them I stuck with HPatN20 until it died and haven't been particularly interested in others.

[Telonius]

Just for a bit of historical context, versions of this argument have been going on since at least the early 1600s (and probably long before that). Part 1 of Miguel de Cervantes' Don Quixote was so famous that it inspired a fanfic by somebody writing under the pen name of Alonso Fernández de Avellaneda. I've never read it myself, but it was apparently so terrible that Cervantes himself addressed it in Part 2 of Don Quixote.

[Vinyadan]

Just for a bit of historical context, versions of this argument have been going on since at least the early 1600s (and probably long before that). Part 1 of Miguel de Cervantes' Don Quixote was so famous that it inspired a fanfic by somebody writing under the pen name of Alonso Fernández de Avellaneda. I've never read it myself, but it was apparently so terrible that Cervantes himself addressed it in Part 2 of Don Quixote.

Tolkien's Letter 292

To Joy Hill, Allen & Unwin

[Tolkien had been sent details of a proposed 'sequel' to The Lord of the Rings that a 'fan' was going to write
himself.]

12 December 1966 | 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, Oxford

Dear Miss Hill,

I send you the enclosed impertinent contribution to my troubles. I do not know what the legal
position is, I suppose that since one cannot claim property in inventing proper names, that there is
no legal obstacle to this young ass publishing his sequel, if he could find any publisher, either
respectable or disreputable, who would accept such tripe.

I have merely informed him that I have forwarded his letter and samples to you. I think that a
suitable letter from Allen & Unwin might be more effective than one from me. I once had a similar
proposal, couched in the most obsequious terms, from a young woman, and when I replied in the
negative, I received a most vituperative letter.

With best wishes,

Yours sincerely,

J. R. R. Tolkien.

[Tyndmyr]

The world building is significantly better than Rowling's (not hard to do, really) but the author is not quite as clever as he thinks he is and spends way too much time both as himself and as RHarry, patting himself on the back for being so clever and rational.

The probably defunct Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (two complete stories and an abandoned third) is a comedy about a D&D 3.5 munchkin come to Potterverse. Hilarity ensues.
Sailor Hellblazer was surprisingly amusing, where everyone's favorite chain smoking, foul language-using, cynical and certain-death-to-his-friends magician becomes a Sailor Scout. It managed to be mostly faithful to both universes.

I got into fanfics with SW vs ST. Some of them were decent, most were crappy and just the author's wanking whichever side they wanted to win. After a period of reading a ton of them I stuck with HPatN20 until it died and haven't been particularly interested in others.

I do agree that HPMoR is a bit self congratulatory, to be sure. Unfortunately, super common in fanfic. This Nat 20 concept sounds amusing, I'll have to investigate it.

[HandofShadows]

As a fanfic writer (NOT saying which stories, but I doubt you heard of them and it sure as hell is not Harry Potter) I think it's good practice, IF you are critical of your work and seek to learn from it. In my own stories I tried to very hard to keep the tone of the source material and looked to building onto the story universe. (I had people tell me that I did so, I guess I succeeded on some level, but I am sure I could do better now.)

A lot of stories I have seen instead try to rewrite the source material in some way or add on to something that's done and over with (As demonstrated by the LOTR "sequel". I mean why even THINK of doing something like that? ). Most writers are frankly not nearly good enough to do this. The result is a lot of fanfics (or maybe a better term would be fanwanks) that does not work.

[Sajiri]

I dont necessarily hate fanfiction, but I havent seen many good ones. My issues with fanfiction are, for one, there's a specific style of writing that seems pervasive among it regardless of which fandom the individual story is from. Not every fanfic writer does it of course, but I swear its like many people who write it, often read it too, so they think its just the way it should be done. It's sort of like a text version of anime, where they have to write in nonsense actions that wouldnt normally be taken notice of (like blinking) or silly things like sweatdropping as an action.

Typically the characters seem to never be faithful to their official personalities, and if there are OCs inserted they are very clearly just wish fulfillment fantasies for the author. However, I can and do greatly enjoy when there is fanfiction for a setting where its easy for it to be an entirely original cast that doesnt use the characters from whatever the established media is, such as pokemon.

I also seriously hate when fanfic writers pair characters up together, because it's never been convincing. It always seems to be the weirdest couples together, and its usually two characters who officially hate each other. Also, everyone is gay more often than not. I have absolutely nothing against gay people or characters, but when I see it in fanfiction it feels incredibly forced and whoever the two characters are being paired up usually follows the formula of one being either a cold hearted loner, a flirty ladies man, or a psycho weirdo, and the other suddenly becomes more feminine than any real woman I've ever met. And it's always the enemies, because hating each other, hurling verbal or physical abuse at each other, and competing against each other means you are secretly in love.

I used to read fanfiction quite a lot in my early high school years, then I kind of grew out of it, but sometimes when Im bored I go looking some up. Its very rare I find something worthwhile, but then the majority of suggestions I've had for it come from my fanfiction-writing best friend who is guilty of all the things I said I dislike, so maybe I need to look elsewhere.

[BWR]

I do agree that HPMoR is a bit self congratulatory, to be sure. Unfortunately, super common in fanfic. This Nat 20 concept sounds amusing, I'll have to investigate it.

It's a bit rough around the edges to start with but quickly settles in a good groove.

[Florian]

I´m mainly annoyed by fandom and fanfiction is an outgrowth of this. I have my hobbies and I love them, but I don´t elevate them to that point of importance.

[NontheistCleric]

I´m mainly annoyed by fandom

Why, though?

[FinnLassie]

Why, though?

From at least my experience, fandoms often become obnoxious pools full of fighting and tons of false acclaims, sometimes even death threats... for example, the Dream Daddy simulator genderbend fanart that someone made.

[Officer Joy]

I don't hate it in theory. But as I haven't really looked for it I haven't really read a lot of it.

But TVTropes has sold me at least on one. Dungeon keeper Amy. A sailer gets stuck in the DK universe. And it is a pretty good read. But kind of dying with only one Decent lenght Chapter every few months.

[Lord Joeltion]

The world building is significantly better than Rowling's (not hard to do, really) but the author is quite as clever as he thinks he is and spends way too much time both as himself and as RHarry, patting himself on the back for being so clever and rational.

While I somewhat agree with you, it's not so uncommon for well-respected writers that also deal with "intellectual" literature. Either because they are somewhat pedantic (but reader's bias would make them sound worse than they truly show on paper) or because that's just how fiction works. Also, it's both a piece of fiction as much as pop-science, since he is literally showing part of his work through the voice of Harry. I mean, it would be unfair to blame that on him since that's the whole purpose of the fic. I also happen to dislike certain authors (even well-respected authors) for similar reasons, so I think it's more a question of taste more than its artistic value.

[BWR]

While I somewhat agree with you, it's not so uncommon for well-respected writers that also deal with "intellectual" literature. Either because they are somewhat pedantic (but reader's bias would make them sound worse than they truly show on paper) or because that's just how fiction works. Also, it's both a piece of fiction as much as pop-science, since he is literally showing part of his work through the voice of Harry. I mean, it would be unfair to blame that on him since that's the whole purpose of the fic. I also happen to dislike certain authors (even well-respected authors) for similar reasons, so I think it's more a question of taste more than its artistic value.

Um, I'm not quite sure what your point is. That he isn't a bit self-congratualtory in HPMoR? Or that he is but intended to be? Either way I found that part annoying.
What's the difference between taste and artistic value?
Honest question.

[ImperatorV]

So, I haven't actually read much of this thread yet, but I thought I'd weigh in on the topic of fanfiction in general. I'm someone who reads a lot of fanfiction (as in, tens of millions of words by this point), and I like to think I have some insights into the medium.


First, a lot of fanfiction is poorly written drivel. No one disputes this, even people who love fanfiction like myself. It takes a lot of experience and skill to be able to tell if a story will be any good before starting it.

Second, a lot of fanfiction is unfinished. A fraction of the stories I read have a clear ending, and abandoned or on hiatus fics are the norm rather then the exception. This can be very off-putting to people who are used to having complete stories.

Third, a lot of fanfiction is unedited. Even "good" fanfiction has grammatical errors and occasional wrong tense. This is not true for the very best, top of the line stuff which I'll get to talking about later.

Fourth, most fanfiction relies on the reader being very familiar with the source material. Some writers are good enough to work in everything the reader will need without info dumps, but most either just assume readers already know the material or do boring re-hashes. This greatly lowers the potential audience of the medium.

Fifth, most fanfiction is written for fanfic authors and fans only. Authors often cater to people who read and write fanfics a lot, and don't consider newcomers. This can be detrimental to the average viewer's ability to enjoy the story.

Sixth, fanfiction is derivative. It has to be. That doesn't mean it can't be unique and interesting, but many fanfics fall into the trap of basically being more of the source material, but not as well edited.

However, you will occasionally find a fanfic that transcends these flaws. The classic example, in my mind, is Game Theory, a Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha fanfic. It's well written, a complete story (with a complete sequel at that), and lacking in errors. Some knowledge of the first season of MGLN is helpful for fully understanding the first two chapters, but after that is not required at all. Many people consider Game Theory's plot, characterization, and worldbuilding to be superior to the original, in fact. Finally, the fic is very accessible to people who haven't read much fanfic before, and provides a unique spin and very different tone and plot to the original.

These kind of works are rare, and I've read dozens of fics that honestly weren't worth my time for each gem I've found. However, I honestly consider Game Theory to be one of the best works of fiction I've read, period, and flat out better written then almost all of the professional modern fiction I've read. I often consider looking for the best fanfiction to be something like a treasure hunt, searching through so much garbage and muck for something special and worthwhile. After doing this for a while you'll start to get good at finding the really well-written stuff, and start to enjoy the things that were written primarily for frequent fanfic readers and writers.

It's not for everybody. It's worth it to me though. That's what's really important in the end. The people who "hate" fanfic really just aren't the type to enjoy it.

[solidork]

It's not for everybody. It's worth it to me though. That's what's really important in the end. The people who "hate" fanfic really just aren't the type to enjoy it.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Even the not very good stuff can be fun, sometimes. Everyone is responsible for curating their own experiences, and everyone sets their own expectations.

[goto124]

Fifth, most fanfiction is written for fanfic authors and fans only. Authors often cater to people who read and write fanfics a lot, and don't consider newcomers. This can be detrimental to the average viewer's ability to enjoy the story.

This makes me curious. What makes a fanfic more enjoyable to a fanfic regular than a newcomer? The use and play on tropes that occur frequently in fanfics, like how Undertale is meant for people who play a lot of RPGs?

[ImperatorV]

This makes me curious. What makes a fanfic more enjoyable to a fanfic regular than a newcomer? The use and play on tropes that occur frequently in fanfics, like how Undertale is meant for people who play a lot of RPGs?

A lot of that, yes. Also making references to other popular fanfics in the same fandom, making decisions on how to write things on the assumption that the reader is familiar with popular theories and opinions in the fanfiction community for that work or just in general, or just framing the premise and story in ways that make sense to someone familiar with fanfiction, but that doesn't work so well to an outsider. It's not uncommon for Worm fanfics, for example, to assume that not only is the reader familiar with the source material, but also with fan interpretations of characters and meta-knowledge from comments the author has made outside of the original story itself about character's power interactions, mechanics, and backrounds. To someone not familiar with all of this, some characters and story elements could seem to come out of nowhere and not be adequately explained.

Also, some fanfics are written in response to other fanfics, either to disagree or present a counterpoint to a character interpretation, or because the author was inspired by the first fanfic and writes a spin-off or something with a similar premise but different execution. This can result in some elements being copied over without thoroughly explaining or justifying them.

[kyoryu]

Another point to consider is: What do people look for in fiction? Fan fiction often serves specific needs that are not widely held (more information on a particular world, particular shippings, etc.) If you *crave* more Harry Potter, then getting that is frankly more important than the overall quality.

A new series in a new world doesn't satisfy that, and so doesn't have that inbuilt audience, and has to live or die on other merits. But if you really just want more Harry Potter, fan fiction can be the firehose to drink from, especially if that's more important than the quality.

Edit: To clarify, by "quality", I mean "things satisfying the needs of a broader audience". Quality as an objective measure doesn't exist - it can only really be considered in the context of people looking to fulfill certain needs.