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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Erys View Post
    A mint and strict counterfeiting laws.
    Wait, I thought the value of gold currency was intrinsic, not ascribed to it by how much the government said it was worth? You can't have it both ways.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Erys, you are blatantly ignoring reality and history. The American Revolutionary army nearly rebelled in large part due to a lack of confidence that they would be paid, which mostly arose because Congress was repeatedly failing to pay them at the time. We actually have a remarkable track record with disease, considering how debilitatimg or deadly it often was. When was the last time you heard of a smallpox case, or had a classmate with Polio, or hell, worried that you would lose a limb after an injury due to Gangrene? And I guess the 30's was just a whole bunch of people laid off because employers all fept like being eviler all of a sudden.
    When medicine wasn't "for profit" and we had incentive to find cures... sure. That has not been the case since the 60's.

    Anyhow, on the American Revolution- the currency issue and the utter disaster that was Continentals is the reason why the Constitution gave only Congress the ability to coin money and regulate it. Money as silver and gold was understood throughout the land, so much so the Constitution didn't actually define it (oops!). That didn't happen until the Coinage act a 1792.

    It should be noted that the federal reserve is only not unconstitutional because Congress is technically allowed to borrow. Now the intent of that was to borrow in times of need (like war or famine) and pay the debt back as quickly as possible; not borrow $20 trillion from a private institution with no intentions of slowing down your spending.

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Because gold has value and uses independent of its status as currency? Hell, wasn't that your original point, that gold has value and uses beyond "people want it?"

    Flip it around now: gold has uses independent of it's value of currency and is already highly valued; why would you want to artificially restrict the supply by having a large portion of it tied up in currency? Unless you already have large stocks of it and are personally enriched by said supply restriction raising its price.
    Governments are not saving it for their computers down the road. They are saving it because it is a store of wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svata View Post
    Wait, I thought the value of gold currency was intrinsic, not ascribed to it by how much the government said it was worth? You can't have it both ways.
    A mint isn't having it both ways chief.

    Gold is intrinsic, it has value in and of itself. But if you are using it as a money to which there is a supply you still want some measure of regulation over it. Too much gold at one time you end up like Spain after conquering the America's.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Erys View Post
    When medicine wasn't "for profit" and we had incentive to find cures... sure. That has not been the case since the 60's.
    Yeah, no. Polio is an ongoing process throughout the world, even as it's been eliminated DURING YOUR LIFETIME in North America. The Global Polio Eradication Initiative was signed into being in 1988 to eradicate it from the rest of the world.

    I repeat, in the last 30 years a debilitating disease was all but eliminated across the globe.There were 37 cases in 2016. Worldwide. Thirty. Seven. You don't get to ignore this, this is happening right now. I can handle ignorance of economic matters, and even cynicism about the rich. Pelor knows they deserve it. But by the brass balls of Ifrit, you do NOT get to ignore it when people across the globe come together to end a terrible problem, and win.
    Last edited by georgie_leech; Yesterday at 11:05 PM.
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    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
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    What's the word for 'fear of being eaten by a mounted bear in half-plate' again? Because that's the one I have.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Blimey, a faboulous furry freak brothers misquote!

    How old are you?

    When I was a kid in the 1970's my Dad had a poster with "Freewheelin' Franklin" and the original quote ("money" instead of "gold", and a different four letter word, that is not gold, for "potatoes").

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    I learned to read from the "Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers" comix that were lying around.
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    So on topic (I guess);
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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Yeah, no. Polio is an ongoing process throughout the world, even as it's been eliminated DURING YOUR LIFETIME in North America. The Global Polio Eradication Initiative was signed into being in 1988 to eradicate it from the rest of the world.

    I repeat, in the last 30 years a debilitating disease was all but eliminated across the globe.There were 37 cases in 2016. Worldwide. Thirty. Seven. You don't get to ignore this, this is happening right now. I can handle ignorance of economic matters, and even cynicism about the rich. Pelor knows they deserve it. But by the brass balls of Ifrit, you do NOT get to ignore it when people across the globe come together to end a terrible problem, and win.
    I feel it is rather disingenuous to tout the work of world organizations and act like they represent the entirety of the 'for-profit' healthcare situation in America.

    Par for course, but still duplicitous.

    My aim here was progress, as it is clear that there is a lot of bad info floating around about gold and intrinsic currencies. But going off topic makes you feel like you "won" or something, so be it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Organizations funded by the fiat money you continue to decry as inherently evil, but fine.

    Alright then, bare basics here: Does "Intrinsic" currency have value derived from it's minting (that is, the government saying "this has value as currency"), or because of the value of the thing it's made of?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    What's the word for 'fear of being eaten by a mounted bear in half-plate' again? Because that's the one I have.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Organizations funded by the fiat money you continue to decry as inherently evil, but fine.

    Alright then, bare basics here: Does "Intrinsic" currency have value derived from it's minting (that is, the government saying "this has value as currency"), or because of the value of the thing it's made of?
    People can do good things even within a bad monetary system. The same kind of campaign could easily have happen with gold at the helm too.

    An intrinsic currency's value is in the commodity, i.e.: gold/silver.

    Coinage is simply a tool for regulating said currency. After all, too much money in a money supply has disastrous consequences.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    So for simplicity's sake, let's have a coin be, by mass, 50/50 gold and some other useless slag that has no monetary value other than to serve as part of the coinage. Each coin weighs 1/10 of a pound and gold is 20$ a pound. How much is each coin worth?
    Last edited by georgie_leech; Today at 01:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    What's the word for 'fear of being eaten by a mounted bear in half-plate' again? Because that's the one I have.

  9. - Top - End - #549
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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Erys View Post
    Also: fiat money is the devil. But, that is a discussion for another thread (and probably another forum).
    This was 13 pages ago and this discussion appears to still be happening on this thread, and perforce on this forum...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Svata View Post
    Wait, I thought the value of gold currency was intrinsic, not ascribed to it by how much the government said it was worth? You can't have it both ways.
    There is no contradiction there. A currency based on gold coinage will still need an official mint. Pure gold is too soft, it needs to be alloyed with a harder metal such as silver. Officially produced coins will have a precise ratio of gold to silver, and a precisely measured quantity of metal. You can't have people making their own coins with a higher proportion of silver and a smaller size.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    There is no contradiction there. A currency based on gold coinage will still need an official mint. Pure gold is too soft, it needs to be alloyed with a harder metal such as silver. Officially produced coins will have a precise ratio of gold to silver, and a precisely measured quantity of metal. You can't have people making their own coins with a higher proportion of silver and a smaller size.
    But since debasement is a thing, the gold in the coin is worth whatever amount the governement says it does. If that's intrinsic value, then intrinsic value is subject to the same kind of arbitrary fiat as fiat money.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread


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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Erys View Post
    When medicine wasn't "for profit" and we had incentive to find cures... sure. That has not been the case since the 60's.
    Today I learned that before the 60's, American medical companies were non-profits.

    On a mildly related note, Jonas Salk deserves to have his face carved into a goddamn mountain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Today I learned that before the 60's, American medical companies were non-profits.

    On a mildly related note, Jonas Salk deserves to have his face carved into a goddamn mountain.
    Also, medicine is apparently only practiced in the United States.
    Better tell my employers they are running a sham operation...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    Also, medicine is apparently only practiced in the United States.
    Better tell my employers they are running a sham operation...
    Well, I don't know about countries' medical economics, so I purposely focused narrowly in my reply. And as always on this topic, there's a lot I have to remain silent about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, I don't know about countries' medical economics, so I purposely focused narrowly in my reply. And as always on this topic, there's a lot I have to remain silent about.
    Well, I don't disagree that the US Medical system is royally f-ed up. But in a global perspective it is only one rather strange fish in a fairly large sea.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    On a mildly related note, Jonas Salk deserves to have his face carved into a goddamn mountain.
    I once went to a Polio museum, and in the central patio, there was a bust of the guy and a nice statue of an armadillo (cultivating the polio virus in the lab was quite hard, but it seems it happily lived in the footpads of armadillos - go figure).

    Also vaguely related, we are also getting ever closer to beating malaria, thanks primarily to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, who have been busy convincing all those evil rich people that run these involved conspiracies to put money into saving millions of people in Africa, South America and South East Asia. It's weird, you'd think that given they are all so busy preventing nine volt batteries from curing cancer, they wouldn't throw billions at the problem of malaria.



    Apropos of nothing, yesterday I completed the History of Rome podcast (plug), as the last puppet emperor* was exiled. So of course, today I started the Revolutions podcast, by the same author, and it starts with the "Glorious" Revolution. One of the key problems that led to the revolution? Inflation over the previous 100 years had been 600%, but taxation had not been adjusted accordingly (Elizabeth I having used low taxes as a way to curry favour from the nobles), which meant that James Dual Numbers and Charles I struggled under a massive state deficit.

    Which is weird, because this is pre-FRB (in fact, it is the tax shenanigans of Charles I that will give rise to FRB in due course), and England was most definitely on gold standard at the time, and yet I have heard somewhere that supposedly, gold standard systems can't have inflation. Curious, huh?

    Grey Wolf

    *Honestly, he was such a non-entity, as were the previous three or so "Emperors" that I suspect that if he hadn't been called Romulus, and thus provide such a beautiful bookend to Rome's history, most historians would have called it long before that.
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; Today at 07:53 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    This was 13 pages ago and this discussion appears to still be happening on this thread, and perforce on this forum...
    Yeah...

    It is interesting, back some 15 years ago when I did small currency meet ups/talks most people didn't know what fiat was. Now, fiat money has become a belief structure. If I had to guess the 2008 housing bubble-crash put the economist on damage control and so almost ten year later you get what we have here today.

    Where an off the cuff comment turns into a massive discussion in which most are convinced that fiat currency is the only way to have an economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    So for simplicity's sake, let's have a coin be, by mass, 50/50 gold and some other useless slag that has no monetary value other than to serve as part of the coinage. Each coin weighs 1/10 of a pound and gold is 20$ a pound. How much is each coin worth?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    But since debasement is a thing, the gold in the coin is worth whatever amount the governement says it does. If that's intrinsic value, then intrinsic value is subject to the same kind of arbitrary fiat as fiat money.
    A coin should be 99.9% pure, and the intrinsic metal within said coin should be one ounce.

    That ounce of gold's value should ultimately be decided by the open market- and since gold and silver as commodities are remarkably stable as a general rule of thumb, prices tend to remain stable.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Erys View Post




    A coin should be 99.9% pure, and the intrinsic metal within said coin should be one ounce.

    That ounce of gold's value should ultimately be decided by the open market- and since gold and silver as commodities are remarkably stable as a general rule of thumb, prices tend to remain stable.
    I don't see why those matter in the slightest to your point, but fine then. The coin is one ounce, pure gold or as close to it as possible, and gold is arbitrarily $10 an ounce when not in coin form. Is the coin worth more, less, or exactly $10?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    What's the word for 'fear of being eaten by a mounted bear in half-plate' again? Because that's the one I have.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Erys View Post
    A coin should be 99.9% pure, and the intrinsic metal within said coin should be one ounce.

    That ounce of gold's value should ultimately be decided by the open market- and since gold and silver as commodities are remarkably stable as a general rule of thumb, prices tend to remain stable.
    So you want the American Buffalo coin to be the only legal tender in the US?

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