OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

[Erys]

And they wouldn't spend any of that money if it was gold? You seem to be misunderstanding the question: Where is the evidence this is a thing because of fiat economies? Propaganda has been a feature of society since back when the rulers of Egypt were considered literal gods, if not earlier.

You seem to be misunderstanding the answer.

Big business (and men of power) will always try to get what it wants. I have never claimed otherwise.

Fiat money simply enables and exacerbates that process by allowing an unlimited, multiplicative amount of money in the supply, pooled at the top and disseminated down at their whim.

Intrinsic (non-fractional) money has physical constraints that mitigate this process severely.

[Erys]

I tried. Fell asleep after about a minute.

Try again. It's rather important to understand.

When the very sources one looks to when attempting to make an informed choice about something are compromised- it affects you personally.

[Kantaki]

Try again. It's rather important to understand.

When the very sources one looks to when attempting to make an informed choice about something are compromised- it affects you personally.

That much I got.
And as I said, I learned that school.

But that information is used to influence others... That is as old as communication itself and has nothing to do with the kind of money- if any -is used.
Everyone does that one way or another. Animals, plants, people, organisations, landscape...

[woweedd]

Try again. It's rather important to understand.

When the very sources one looks to when attempting to make an informed choice about something are compromised- it affects you personally.

Weird how only the sources that disagree with you are compromised, eh?

[Erys]

That much I got.
And as I said, I learned that school.

But that information is used to influence others... That is as old as communication itself and has nothing to do with the kind of money- if any -is used.
Everyone does that one way or another. Animals, plants, people, organisations, landscape...

So you learned in school that big business has and does create fake campaigns, including 'native' news stories, edited Wikipedia entries, forum trolling and the like- just to get you to buy something?

Interesting...

As I said above, sure- men of power and big business will always try to remain the big dog on their respective blocks; when you have the ability to multiply the amount of money in supply you empower them to reach and manipulate more people, faster.

That's a fact.

Weird how only the sources that disagree with you are compromised, eh?

Huh? What an odd thing to say...

Did you watch the video?

[2D8HP]

As far as I'm concerned leaving the trees was already a bad idea..

That's going in my Extended Sig, along with:

If your clan has discovered fire you are no true Grognard!

[Kantaki]

So you learned in school that big business has and does create fake campaigns, including 'native' news stories, edited Wikipedia entries, forum trolling and the like- just to get you to buy something?

No, I learned that when reading a newspaper article, watching something on Tv, or however you consume your information it is always important to be critical about where the information comes from, who is giving it and what their agenda/message is.
All that stuff that colours the information you get.
Had something to do with text analysis or something like that if I recall correctly.

Aunt Edith says:

That's going in my Extended Sig

Yay. Someone's sigging my crazy.

[Erys]

No, I learned that when reading a newspaper article, watching something on Tv, or however you consume your information it is always important to be critical about where the information comes from, who is giving it and what their agenda/message is.
All that stuff that colours the information you get.
Had something to do with text analysis or something like that if I recall correctly.

Astroturfing is the process of compromising all of that. It aims to take hold of reliable sources and turn them into little beacons of advertising (and/or propaganda)

Research native advertising if you don't believe me. Or just watch that short video I posted.

[woweedd]

Astroturfing is the process of compromising all of that. It aims to take hold of reliable sources and turn them into little beacons of advertising (and/or propaganda)

Research native advertising if you don't believe me. Or just watch that short video I posted.

How does this relate to your Pro-Gold thing? Trust me, if you think people don't astroturf for gold, well, ask Glenn Beck sometime.

[Erys]

How does this relate to your Pro-Gold thing? Trust me, if you think people don't astroturf for gold, well, ask Glenn Beck sometime.

Big business (and men of power) will always try to get what it wants. I have never claimed otherwise.

Fiat money simply enables and exacerbates that process by allowing an unlimited, multiplicative amount of money in the supply, pooled at the top and disseminated down at their whim.

Intrinsic (non-fractional) money has physical constraints that mitigate this process severely.

[woweedd]

Big business (and men of power) will always try to get what it wants. I have never claimed otherwise.

Fiat money simply enables and exacerbates that process by allowing an unlimited, multiplicative amount of money in the supply, pooled at the top and disseminated down at their whim.

Intrinsic (non-fractional) money has physical constraints that mitigate this process severely.

My point is, if our sources can't be trusted because they're astroturfed, how could you be sure your sources aren't astroturfed?

[Erys]

My point is, if our sources can't be trusted because they're astroturfed, how could you be sure your sources aren't astroturfed?

Reading books from many different authors?

[woweedd]

Reading books from many different authors?

Almost every economics book agrees that fiat currency was an improvement over the gold standard. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Svata]

This is a good video series. I'm just gonna leave it here.

[Erys]

Almost every economics book approved by bankers and offered to students agrees that fiat currency was an improvement over the gold standard. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

FTFY

Remember, the name of the fiat game is "confidence"- if the majority of information available and taught said otherwise... the currency would collapse in an instant. Meanwhile, governments around the world are buying and storing gold 'just in case'.

Which kind of spits in the face of the whole idea that fiat is better than gold... but I digress.

[woweedd]

FTFY

Remember, the name of the fiat game is "confidence"- if the majority of information available and taught said otherwise... the currency would collapse in an instant. Meanwhile, governments around the world are buying and storing gold 'just in case'.

Which kind of spits in the face of the whole idea that fiat is better than gold... but I digress.

OK, you're kinda proving my point vis-a-vis the idea that you instantly declare any idea that contradict yours as fake evidence, made by some worldwide conspiracy against you. That is, to put it bluntly, insane.

[Keltest]

FTFY

Remember, the name of the fiat game is "confidence"- if the majority of information available and taught said otherwise... the currency would collapse in an instant. Meanwhile, governments around the world are buying and storing gold 'just in case'.

Which kind of spits in the face of the whole idea that fiat is better than gold... but I digress.

If the world economy collapses for whatever reason, gold is going to be the last thing anybody wants. You cant make tools with it, its heavy, you cant derive nutrients for it, and it doesn't help manufacture any of the above.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, potatoes are a lot more valuable during a gold shortage than gold is during a potato shortage.

[woweedd]

This is a good video series. I'm just gonna leave it here.

To give the Cliff Notes:
1. It's heavy, meaning that it's impossible to make very large transactions since you have to physically haul all that gold.
2. Its scarcity can serve as a weakness just as much as a strength, in that, if your economy grows large enough, eventually, you're gonna reach the point where your gold production can't keep pace with the growth of that same economy.
3. It limits the government's ability to do things such as fund an army or, indeed, weather any large increase in their spending that they can't find enough gold to support. Speaking of which:
4. It leaves your economy outside of your control. A resource whose value comes from scarcity only works if that resource remains at that level of scarcity, forever. If it doesn't, and it won't, it either leads to Problem 2, mentioned above, or it leads to inflation resulting from a sudden influx of new gold.

[Erys]

OK, you're kinda proving my point vis-a-vis the idea that you instantly declare any idea that contradict yours as fake evidence, made by some worldwide conspiracy against you. That is, to put it bluntly, insane.

More putting words in my mouth. Come now, you can do better than that.

Certainly you know the role Confidence plays in these things. And certainly you are honest enough to admit that if there is a wealth of information that goes against a system (or even a product)-Confidence will fall, use will plummet, and the system will fail (or the product won't sell).

That is even true with gold. Which people still use to hedge their bets on Wall Street because its trusted as a store of value.

If the world economy collapses for whatever reason, gold is going to be the last thing anybody wants. You cant make tools with it, its heavy, you cant derive nutrients for it, and it doesn't help manufacture any of the above.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, potatoes are a lot more valuable during a gold shortage than gold is during a potato shortage.

While I see your point and agree that its possible we could see a collapse that is so severe essentials like food and shelter are no longer a given; ultimately I guess only time will tell...

If fiat is so great, why do you suppose governments are buying/saving gold then?

[halfeye]

If the world economy collapses for whatever reason, gold is going to be the last thing anybody wants. You cant make tools with it, its heavy, you cant derive nutrients for it, and it doesn't help manufacture any of the above.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, potatoes are a lot more valuable during a gold shortage than gold is during a potato shortage.

Blimey, a faboulous furry freak brothers misquote!

[danielxcutter]

I'm just going to unsubscribe from this thread.

[woweedd]

More putting words in my mouth. Come now, you can do better than that.

Certainly you know the role Confidence plays in these things. And certainly you are honest enough to admit that if there is a wealth of information that goes against a system (or even a product)-Confidence will fall, use will plummet, and the system will fail (or the product won't sell).

That is even true with gold. Which people still use to hedge their bets on Wall Street because its trusted as a store of value.



While I see your point and agree that its possible we could see a collapse that is so severe essentials like food and shelter are no longer a given; ultimately I guess only time will tell...

If fiat is so great, why do you suppose governments are buying/saving gold then?

Do you have any response to the video posted earlier? I gave Cliff nOtes on it:

To give the Cliff Notes:
1. It's heavy, meaning that it's impossible to make very large transactions since you have to physically haul all that gold.
2. Its scarcity can serve as a weakness just a smuch as a strength, in that, if your economy grows large enough, eventually, you're gonna reach the point where your gold production can't keep pace with the growth of that same economy.
3. It limits the government's ability to do things such as fund an army or, indeed, weather any large increase in their spending that they can't find enough gold to support. Speaking of which:
4. It leaves your economy outside of your control. A resource whose value comes from scarcity only works if that resource remains at that level of scarcity, forever. If it doesn't, and it won't, it either leads to Problem 2, mentioned above, or it leads to inflation resulting from a sudden influx of new gold.

I know you've already offered rebuttals to some of these points, but I feel you should go over all the major arguments aganist gold at once, for reference's sake.

[Erys]

Do you have any response to the video posted earlier? I gave Cliff nOtes on it:

I know you've already offered rebuttals to some of these points, but I feel you should go over all the major arguments aganist gold at once, for reference's sake.

I have covered all those points throughout this thread.

1. It's heavy, meaning that it's impossible to make very large transactions since you have to physically haul all that gold.

It could be impractical, never impossible. More so, assuming you have a government and are not using fractional reserve banking systems- you can issue gold/silver certificates so that you can utilize the ease and convenience of paper while enjoying the stability of gold.

2. Its scarcity can serve as a weakness just a smuch as a strength, in that, if your economy grows large enough, eventually, you're gonna reach the point where your gold production can't keep pace with the growth of that same economy.

Again, if you are using a government model, that government should be regulating the money supply so that you don't get too much, or too little gold in supply at once. Should population or other economic factors still out pace gold you will experience deflation. I.e.: your money will actually buy you more things as prices go down (and golds value goes up).

3. It limits the government's ability to do things such as fund an army or, indeed, weather any large increase in their spending that they can't find enough gold to support. Speaking of which:

Emergency situations are why governments have the ability to borrow. You don't have to debase your money supply to wage war. Conversely, when you consider the military industrial complex, maybe less money for war would be a good thing.

4. It leaves your economy outside of your control. A resource whose value comes from scarcity only works if that resource remains at that level of scarcity, forever. If it doesn't, and it won't, it either leads to Problem 2, mentioned above, or it leads to inflation resulting from a sudden influx of new gold.

As already mentioned: a government should regulate the money supply. Not borrow unlimitedly from a third party and then allow banks to multiply that already obscene amount of money by a factor of 9.


Care to answer any of my questions? Or is this still a one sided affair?

[woweedd]

I have covered all those points throughout this thread.



It could be impractical, never impossible. More so, assuming you have a government and are not using fractional reserve banking systems- you can issue gold/silver certificates so that you can utilize the ease and convenience of paper while enjoying the stability of gold.



Again, if you are using a government model, that government should be regulating the money supply so that you don't get too much, or too little gold in supply at once. Should population or other economic factors still out pace gold you will experience deflation. I.e.: your money will actually buy you more things as prices go down (and golds value goes up).



Emergency situations are why governments have the ability to borrow. You don't have to debase your money supply to wage war. Conversely, when you consider the military industrial complex, maybe less money for war would be a good thing.



As already mentioned: a government should regulate the money supply. Not borrow unlimitedly from a third party and then allow banks to multiply that already obscene amount of money by a factor of 9.


Care to answer any of my questions? Or is this still a one sided affair?

We're not talking government regulation. Even with government regulation, gold is, by definition, a finite resource. The fact that it is so rare is, indeed, what makes it so valuable. But it's also non-renewable. At some point, your supply will dry up, as your economy grows and your gold can only get more rare.

Also, deflation isn't necessarily a good thing. In fact, in many cases, it can be much worse than inflation. With deflation, investment lowers and even low-interest and in some extreme cases, no-interest-loans become increasingly hard to pay back. Plus, as in cases like The 1930s, it can lead to what's called a deflationary spiral, wherein a decrease in price causes a decrease in production, which itself causes a decrease in wages and demand, thus causing another decrease in price due to lower spending, ETC.

[georgie_leech]

I have covered all those points throughout this thread.



It could be impractical, never impossible. More so, assuming you have a government and are not using fractional reserve banking systems- you can issue gold/silver certificates so that you can utilize the ease and convenience of paper while enjoying the stability of gold.

Funny thing that, FRB started up when they started using those certificates, not when we switched over from the gold standard.

Again, if you are using a government model, that government should be regulating the money supply so that you don't get too much, or too little gold in supply at once. Should population or other economic factors still out pace gold you will experience deflation. I.e.: your money will actually buy you more things as prices go down (and golds value goes up).

It also means that rich people and business owners are suddenly less likely to invest, as why would they spend money when it is worth more to keep in a vault like Scrooge McDuck? That means businesses close to avoid the expense, which means fewer jobs. Fewer jobs mean more unemployment, and a dollar being able to buy 2 apples instead of 1 is cold comfort when you don't have the dollar to spend. See: the Great Depression for what happens when you get ongoing deflation.

Emergency situations are why governments have the ability to borrow. You don't have to debase your money supply to wage war. Conversely, when you consider the military industrial complex, maybe less money for war would be a good thing.

Except you kinda do. Money spent on a war doesn't get looted from the corpses of the slain like in D&D, it gets destroyed in loss of life, material, and equipment.

And again, if countries are just inventing their own wealth without limit, why don't they just solve all of their funding shortages? There are plenty of ongoing examples that would make perfect discussion fodder if they wouldn't surely trip the no politics rule. Suffice to say that there's a reason pretty much every major world nation dropped off of the precious metal standards durijg the early 20th century.

As already mentioned: a government should regulate the money supply. Not borrow unlimitedly from a third party and then allow banks to multiply that already obscene amount of money by a factor of 9.

"We should trust the government to regulate the money supply, but we shouldn't trust the government to regulate the money supply."

Care to answer any of my questions? Or is this still a one sided affair?

We have been making an effort to address your arguments. Which do you feel have been inadequately covered?

[Svata]

Again, if you are using a government model, that government should be regulating the money supply so that you don't get too much, or too little gold in supply at once. Should population or other economic factors still out pace gold you will experience deflation. I.e.: your money will actually buy you more things as prices go down (and golds value goes up).

Its impossible to regulate the supply of money when your money can literally be dug out of a hole in the ground by any random schmuck who happens to get lucky.

[georgie_leech]

Its impossible to regulate the supply of money when your money can literally be dug out of a hole in the ground by any random schmuck who happens to get lucky.

To reiterate, this isn't saying the gold gets turned into coins, but that more gold laying around makes the coins you already have worth less than they used to.

[woweedd]

To reiterate, this isn't saying the gold gets turned into coins, but that more gold laying around makes the coins you already have worth less than they used to.

Exactly. Fiat Currency may have Inflation built into it, but at least there's also an easy way to counter that inflation. Not so with gold

[Erys]

We're not talking government regulation. Even with government regulation, gold is, by definition, a finite resource. The fact that it is so rare is, indeed, what makes it so valuable. But it's also non-renewable. At some point, your supply will dry up, as your economy grows and your gold can only get more rare.

Also, deflation isn't necessarily a good thing. In fact, in many cases, it can be much worse than inflation. With deflation, investment lowers and even low-interest and in some extreme cases, no-interest-loans become increasingly hard to pay back. Plus, as in cases like The 1930s, it can lead to what's called a deflationary spiral, wherein a decrease in price causes a decrease in production, which itself causes a decrease in wages and demand, thus causing another decrease in price due to lower spending, ETC.

There is no shortage of gold. Granted, it is getting harder to acquire. But then, that just spawns the need for new technology so... win/win.

The 1933's had some interesting things in play; one of the most nefarious being the federal reserve. Central banks can and do play god with markets, expanding and contracting the money supply at their whim.

Funny thing that, FRB started up when they started using those certificates, not when we switched over from the gold standard.

It did. There are hucksters abound that will try to game the system for person benefit. Also, the rules were already in place to allow banks to do this, so.... yeah.

I say 'non-fractional intrinsic currency' often for a reason. Fractional reserve banking is almost as bad as fiat... almost.

It also means that rich people and business owners are suddenly less likely to invest, as why would they spend money when it is worth more to keep in a vault like Scrooge McDuck? That means businesses close to avoid the expense, which means fewer jobs. Fewer jobs mean more unemployment, and a dollar being able to buy 2 apples instead of 1 is cold comfort when you don't have the dollar to spend. See: the Great Depression for what happens when you get ongoing deflation.

Kind of a stretch. I'm rich so I won't buy anything, fund anything, or do anything so I can be richer?

That doesn't really line up with reality.

Also, again, the usual method currency is distributed is from the public sector, not rich people.

Except you kinda do. Money spent on a war doesn't get looted from the corpses of the slain like in D&D, it gets destroyed in loss of life, material, and equipment.

There is a LOT of looting in war, in a myriad of ways. Also, in at least Americas founding fathers intent was to not even have an army as they are instruments of offensive actions. People will defend their homes for free (albeit, you want to still get your defensive force supplies and whatnot).

Unless you understand the military industrial complex and how it is empowered by fiat money, you will never understand this point.

And again, if countries are just inventing their own wealth without limit, why don't they just solve all of their funding shortages? There are plenty of ongoing examples that would make perfect discussion fodder if they wouldn't surely trip the no politics rule. Suffice to say that there's a reason pretty much every major world nation dropped off of the precious metal standards durijg the early 20th century.

The same reason why medical institutions don't invest in cures, why urban planners never can fully solve traffic issues, or why the World Bank/IMF will bail out a country over and over again that defaults on its loans.

In a currency system that can only expand at an every increasing rate- the last thing you want are solutions that stop the flow of money.

We have been making an effort to address your arguments. Which do you feel have been inadequately covered?

Most actually.

Start with: if fiat currency is so great and no currency should be even tied intrinsic metal, why are Countries around the world still buying and saving gold?

Its impossible to regulate the supply of money when your money can literally be dug out of a hole in the ground by any random schmuck who happens to get lucky.

A mint and strict counterfeiting laws.

To reiterate, this isn't saying the gold gets turned into coins, but that more gold laying around makes the coins you already have worth less than they used to.

Actually raw ore would be a commodity separate from coined currency. Gold has other uses you know.

Exactly. Fiat Currency may have Inflation built into it, but at least there's also an easy way to counter that inflation. Not so with gold

If that was true, I feel buying power wouldn't be down 450% over the last 45 years.

Also, there are means to take intrinsic coin out of the money supply- simply taxing and not spending will do it.

[georgie_leech]

Erys, you are blatantly ignoring reality and history. The American Revolutionary army nearly rebelled in large part due to a lack of confidence that they would be paid, which mostly arose because Congress was repeatedly failing to pay them at the time. We actually have a remarkable track record with disease, considering how debilitatimg or deadly it often was. When was the last time you heard of a smallpox case, or had a classmate with Polio, or hell, worried that you would lose a limb after an injury due to Gangrene? And I guess the 30's was just a whole bunch of people laid off because employers all fept like being eviler all of a sudden.

Most actually.

Start with: if fiat currency is so great and no currency should be even tied intrinsic metal, why are Countries around the world still buying and saving gold?

Because gold has value and uses independent of its status as currency? Hell, wasn't that your original point, that gold has value and uses beyond "people want it?"

Flip it around now: gold has uses independent of it's value of currency and is already highly valued; why would you want to artificially restrict the supply by having a large portion of it tied up in currency? Unless you already have large stocks of it and are personally enriched by said supply restriction raising its price.