So what if Armor gave DR instead of AC.....

[Blackhawk748]

Pretty much what it says on the tin, lets say armor now has a DR X/-, where X is equal to the Armor Bonus, what would that change in the game at:

Lvls 1-5
6-10
11-15
16-20

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...eReduction.htm

I think you will like it :)

[zergling.exe]

Here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...eReduction.htm

I think you will like it :)

More usefully, try searching around for people's opinion on this. Most agree that it nerfs the weaker methods of attack (TWF, archery and sword and board), while doing next to nothing against THF. It makes low level encounters take longer and barely affects high level encounters (outside of characters that make lots of attacks).

[Blackhawk748]

Here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...eReduction.htm

I think you will like it :)

Already knew about this, mine is different as the DR is higher (double actually) and it gives no Armor Bonus. (Shields still will, obviously)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I think it will just make every damage dealer to build their character on one super strong attack every round.
MOBs and minions PC will do no damage.
If the DR will be higher the fight will become longer and PCs will need more HP because the enemies will live long enough to do something like cast spells(I think it is a part of the one who controls the enemies but from what I know I should never give my GM's casters a chance to cast a spell(like the known tactic "Kill the healer" only it is now "Kill the caster")).


BTW, I don't think that PC at low level(1-2) will be able to do enough damage to affect the enemies.
At level 3 I know that you can do something like 30 HP very easily in one attack so you will be able to do damage to your enemies(but it will only be 12-5HP)

At higher levels you can do a lot more damage because AC is going up slower then damage.


This all if I understand your Armor to DR right(like DR is 10+DEX+Armor+whatever you can get).

[Blackhawk748]

This all if I understand your Armor to DR right(like DR is 10+DEX+Armor+whatever you can get).

Oh dear god no, that would be insane. I meant that DR equals the Armor Bonus that the Armor gave you (ie Full Plate give 8/-, Scale Mail 4/-, etc.)

[barakaka]

It still puts more emphasis on one big attack (which is already the better way to deal damage), nerfs assassins, and does nothing to casters, which are the real problem in combat above level 7.

Actually, if you just removed Touch AC and applied all Touch Attacks to regular armor class, it might do more to improve the game. Rogues/assassins still hit flat footed, Barbarians and such are unaffected, and casters have a much higher AC to hit with all their Save or Lose spells. Not really sure the effect it would have on monsters though.

[Blackhawk748]

It still puts more emphasis on one big attack (which is already the better way to deal damage), nerfs assassins, and does nothing to casters, which are the real problem in combat above level 7.

Actually, if you just removed Touch AC and applied all Touch Attacks to regular armor class, it might do more to improve the game. Rogues/assassins still hit flat footed, Barbarians and such are unaffected, and casters have a much higher AC to hit with all their Save or Lose spells. Not really sure the effect it would have on monsters though.

Well Assassins (and other Rogue types) typically focus on Sneak Attack, which is unaffected, but i do see your point.

That is an interesting idea, and it would make sense, as the only add on to normal Touch AC would be Shield bonus and that should be there anyway (as far as im concerned). Another idea (and one that would make sense in my mind) would be to apply half of the Armors DR as Resistance to most of the standard elements. I mean, Full Plate should protect you a bit from a fireball though not as well as it would from a sword strike.

[Necroticplague]

Main problem I see with DR instead of AC is that it worsens already existent problems in the system. Those who are already struggling the most suffer the most from it, those who are already the best are completely unaffected by it.

[DMVerdandi]

I would say the best is armor bonus also gives DR, rather than one or the other.

Now armor (and shields for that matter), can solidly absorb impact, as well as deflect it. As others have stated, this is going to make people who have armor tanky as all get out, but that is the point of armor in the first place.

Give each armor a DR/X weakness. Bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, depending on the armor; that way, you get this kind of rock paper scissors effect with the weapons, which will deepen the play slightly.

[Eldan]

It's been discussed before. The main problem is that it scales very badly. At level one, DR/5 and up is near insurmountable for many builds. An archer or a bard with a rapier or a rogue who's not sneak attacking will not get through with their 1d8 or 1d6+1 damage.

At higher levels? Your 3d6+60 damage barbarian laughs at DR 10.

Further problem is power attack. You get more than +1 damage for every -1 attack you take, ideally. So, damage dealer builds will deal a lot more damage this way.

Basically, you need ways for this to scale to stay relevant.

[Kallimakus]

I've started a PF game using this system to try it out. The rules:
Armor gives DR according to its bonus. Regular armor gives DR/magic or Large+. Magic armor gives DR/Adamantine or huge+.
Defense (replacing AC as target of attacks) is 10+Dex+BAB+Shield, as well as any other AC modifiers like dodge. There is no specific touch AC.
Half of damage blocked by DR is dealt as nonlethal damage.
The idea is that, firstly, armour is good, especially at low levels, and against human-sized enemies. Equally, I hope that there is a meaningful choice between trying to use light armour and defense or heavy armor.
If I were more involved I would have added weaknesses against damage types, or the idea that precision damage ignores DR/armor.

[noce]

I like the way armor works in World of Warcraft.
Your armor value translates to a % reduction to damage taken, with no chance the blow could miss.
In addition to this, there are dodge chance, parry chance and block chance.

Unfortunately, I see no way to translate this into d&d.

[AnimeTheCat]

If this is an attempt to make martial characters more survivable in melee combat, have it be a class ability that is granted at first level.

"When wearing armor with which you are proficient, you gain DR equal to the armor bonus in addition to the Armor Bonus to AC."

Don't give it to classes that shouldn't get it like Druid or Cleric. Have it stack with the DR that Barbarians get.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You'd have to scale it with level, so the DR/-- would have to go up by your base attack bonus or something. But then you're solidly in the realm of redesigning the entire system to use DR, because you'd have to get natural armour in there, and rework existing DR to work with that...

I prefer damage conversion to nonlethal, myself. Full plate takes 8 damage from every hit and turns it nonlethal (plus it provides its normal AC bonus), nonlethal damage is simply nullified. It gets you more effective in-combat healing, which is not bad, and otherwise the same damage, but without the lethality. If you make that scale with level, it won't make combat quite as weird, though it will make CdGs necessary to completely finish a fight.

[denthor]

Tried that in a game small creatures hobbit,kolbolds, gnomes. Anything with smaller weapons and lower strength could not do damage with magic weapons

[Blackhawk748]

So my suspicions have been confirmed. Basically Armor as DR only really works at low levels (6 and down mostly) as it doesnt scale so its pretty crap at higher levels. Also it kinda kills low damage, muli attack people while prioritizing Big Weapons.

Also it would be best to give the armor different DR versus Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning bu that would require reworking all of the armor, which i may actually do cuz 3.5 Armors rather bug me as theres really only 5 viable armors.

[VisitingDaGulag]

So give it a BAB multiplier but only for the first hit.

Attackers with multiple hits do next to no damage on their first hit but feel rewarded to pump damage on their many iteratives

Attackers who love power attack feel pressured to either really optimize their first hit or to just make a more balanced character with iteratives.

[martixy]

So my suspicions have been confirmed. Basically Armor as DR only really works at low levels (6 and down mostly) as it doesnt scale so its pretty crap at higher levels. Also it kinda kills low damage, muli attack people while prioritizing Big Weapons.

Also it would be best to give the armor different DR versus Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning bu that would require reworking all of the armor, which i may actually do cuz 3.5 Armors rather bug me as theres really only 5 viable armors.

Pretty much, yea.

One thing worth mention is a UA variant: Damage Conversion - armor gives both armor AND DR. Sort of - it converts its armor value to non-lethal damage.

Another sort of solution, for the caster problem is scaling, increasing touch AC. For example dodge bonuses based on BAB or HD - per 2/3 seems like a good number.

[tenshiakodo]

A thing that people always seem to forget when discussing armor as DR variants is Power Attack. All that a system like that will do is make Power Attack a vital feat- which, when taken and used, will likely bring things back to normal:

Lower AC because armor grants DR instead.
Characters have BAB to spare as a result.
Characters with Power Attack can turn that extra AC into bonus damage to overcome the DR.

[Crake]

Well Assassins (and other Rogue types) typically focus on Sneak Attack, which is unaffected, but i do see your point.

That is an interesting idea, and it would make sense, as the only add on to normal Touch AC would be Shield bonus and that should be there anyway (as far as im concerned). Another idea (and one that would make sense in my mind) would be to apply half of the Armors DR as Resistance to most of the standard elements. I mean, Full Plate should protect you a bit from a fireball though not as well as it would from a sword strike.

Using the class defense bonus variant rule solves much of this problem. It gives you a level based scaling bonus to AC that doesn't stack with armor, and applies to touch AC. I combine it with the armor as DR rule, with the exception that I allow the armor's enhancement bonus to also add to the armor's DR (still using half the armor's bonus), but I also keep the armor's bonus at full, to give some incentive to wear armor, instead of just walking around in plain clothes all day thanks to the class defense bonus.

I use both of those variants (along with a few others) in an e6 game I'm running, and it's had very positive results.