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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    Beyond can find it's spot in the local game store that wants to host games, with a master tier suscription and all the content bought by the shop, anyone can go there and play with the digital sourcebooks on their devices. It will be more comfortable and economic for the shop to keep everything digital, and it will be more comfortable for the players that don't have to constantly look through a physical PHB.

    I think that the general consensus that came up here saying that it is bad happened because none of us are the target of the product. Most of us have physical books or are in a group where the books are shared, so there's no need to pay for them again in digital version.
    If everything is digital, then what would the shop sell?

    Regarding your second point, 5e has been out long enough that most of the people who want to play already have a PHB in some form. If Beyond had launched with 5e, then it wouldn't be as bad.

    But subscriptions, ads, and paying multiple times are pretty bad.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-08-09 at 08:25 AM.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    If everything is digital, then what would the shop sell?

    Regarding your second point, 5e has been out long enough that most of the people who want to play already have a PHB in some form. If Beyond had launched with 5e, then it wouldn't be as bad.

    But subscriptions, ads, and paying multiple times are pretty bad.
    The intent would be that the shop sells the sessions that you play there. New players keep coming so the fact that the books have been out for so long isn't an issue for what I believe to be the target to be(casual/new groups).

    I can envision a shop with tablets connected to Beyond so that players won't even need to make accounts to use the service there, just pay whatever the shop feels right in order to play.
    Last edited by Lombra; 2017-08-09 at 08:43 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by DanyBallon View Post
    Then you're definitely not the target audience, D&D beyond is not a pdf. From what I understand (I haven't tried it yet), it's an integrate database that let you as a player and/or a DM have access to your owned material, and homebrew, on a digital device.
    *grumble* which a pdf does just as well. Heck, even as a database I find it incredibly frustrating to browse, 1/10 would consider setting fire to.

    As for you spending money on roll20 books, it's sad to say but they don't really care as the company behind D&D Beyond is not related to roll20 and is in part in competition with them. They would prefer that you spend that 30$ on their product instead of on the competition.
    Well sure, and it actually makes sense to buy some product on Roll20 as you're getting a benefit on the site. I don't like how expensive the stuff is on Roll20, but it's at least giving more functionality to the site. While that's true here, they're pushing the compendium more than the character builder in my experience, and the compendium is just blargh

    As for myself, I'm not the target audience either as I like to own physical copies of books I buy and music albums as well. Actually I'm considering buying a second PHB just to have at leave one copy up to date with the errata.
    I'm fairly certain we are the target audience. The 'buy the races and classes you want' heavily implies they expect those who only play certain classes and races to just purchase those, which implies they expect people who know the rules to buy stuff, which implies we are intended customers (even if not the primary, which I highly doubt).
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2017-08-09 at 08:45 AM.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    The intent would be that the shop sells the sessions that you play there. New players keep coming so the fact that the books have been out for so long isn't an issue for what I believe to be the target to be(casual/new groups).

    I can envision a shop with tablets connected to Beyond so that players won't even need to make accounts to use the service there, just pay whatever the shop feels right in order to play.
    So what's stopping players from just meeting at each other's houses? And what's stopping competing shops from opening up coffee bars or selling food so they don't have to charge people to play? I don't think that model will work simply due to the nature of D&D. Besides the fact that tablets are expensive and people's hands are grimey and gross.
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    So what's stopping players from just meeting at each other's houses? And what's stopping competing shops from opening up coffee bars or selling food so they don't have to charge people to play? I don't think that model will work simply due to the nature of D&D. Besides the fact that tablets are expensive and people's hands are grimey and gross.
    Those who will have the opportunity will play at each others houses, what's the point of the question? It's a service aimed at new, casual, or people that just want to try out the game because they just heard of it with some experienced people (the DM will be provided by the shop in my hypothesis).

    I have no degree of competence in economy studies but I believe that inter-shop competitivity is beyond (pun not intended) the point of the discussion. Every shop that wants to use this system will have its own way of dealing with customers and other shops to stay competitive.

    Beyond looks good to me for this kind of initiative because it allows the promoters of such initiative to handle everything digitally and at a smaller price than if the owner were to buy the actual books. The income will be from the players intreasted that will pay to play and will visit the shop (having customers that don't buy off the shelf is better than not having customers at all)
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    One app that was released several years late isn't going to change anyone's business model. Furthermore, going digital removes the need to have a shop at all if WotC really wants to push this.

    Fortunately, d&d represents a small portion of actual game shop sales. I doubt most will notice.
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    One app that was released several years late isn't going to change anyone's business model. Furthermore, going digital removes the need to have a shop at all if WotC really wants to push this.

    Fortunately, d&d represents a small portion of actual game shop sales. I doubt most will notice.
    My idea is one way to use the app, I'm not saying that it is how it is intended to be used.

    I'm saying that large groups that want to provide D&D sessions as a service may find this useful, generally speaking. 5th edition is pretty good at attracting new players, so I don't see it as a useless application of Beyond.

    Again, I don't want to discuss marketing models, it's just an example off the top of my head, because I want to find uses to this, since it won't be of any use to me.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    It's a service aimed at new, casual, or people that just want to try out the game because they just heard of it with some experienced people
    [citation needed]

    Seriously, provide ACTUAL evidence that this isn't aimed at everyone who's interested in D&D, rather than telling me it's just aimed at new people. Because I've yet to see it, even WotC seems to talk as if it's something for everyone.

    EDIT: I'll agree that Lombra's idea is a possible way to use it. I highly suspect it's one WotC either didn't think of, or didn't consider significant.

    (I will, however, put forward a theory that they see people running multiple events/con games a year using it to make a lot of pregenerated characters, which I can see the logic behind)
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2017-08-09 at 10:03 AM.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    [citation needed]

    Seriously, provide ACTUAL evidence that this isn't aimed at everyone who's interested in D&D, rather than telling me it's just aimed at new people. Because I've yet to see it, even WotC seems to talk as if it's something for everyone.

    (I will, however, put forward a theory that they see people running multiple events/con games a year using it to make a lot of pregenerated characters, which I can see the logic behind)
    I was referring to my idea of "shop that sells comic books and D&D sessions with "professional" DMs" not to the D&D Beyond app in what you cited, sorry if it wasn't clear.

    Big events can make use of this to become more organized and simple too, but I can see both pros and cons to that.

    Edit: ultimately, i want to believe that this is not aimed at every D&D next player in the world, because it clearly doesn't appeal to every D&D next player in the world, me in primis. And since I have a bit of faith and hope towards the people at Curse that planned this thing, I choose that I am not their target, rather than them screwing up that badly, until something official will be stated on this argument.
    TL;DR: I give them the benefit of the doubt.
    Last edited by Lombra; 2017-08-09 at 10:16 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    I was referring to my idea of "shop that sells comic books and D&D sessions with "professional" DMs" not to the D&D Beyond app in what you cited, sorry if it wasn't clear.
    Okay, that makes sense.

    Edit: ultimately, i want to believe that this is not aimed at every D&D next player in the world, because it clearly doesn't appeal to every D&D next player in the world, me in primis. And since I have a bit of faith and hope towards the people at Curse that planned this thing, I choose that I am not their target, rather than them screwing up that badly, until something official will be stated on this argument.
    TL;DR: I give them the benefit of the doubt.
    I've given up expecting WotC to have much sense in this area, the lack of an official pdf two-three years down the line was what killed it. I'm going to be looking at what's presented, rather than trying to be optimistic about what they could intend, and what's presented is that they want people to buy their rules a third time.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    thats too bad i was actually pretty excited for this but **** those prices so hard
    My Characters:

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    all the campaigns....they are died....

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    *grumble* which a pdf does just as well. Heck, even as a database I find it incredibly frustrating to browse, 1/10 would consider setting fire to.



    Well sure, and it actually makes sense to buy some product on Roll20 as you're getting a benefit on the site. I don't like how expensive the stuff is on Roll20, but it's at least giving more functionality to the site. While that's true here, they're pushing the compendium more than the character builder in my experience, and the compendium is just blargh



    I'm fairly certain we are the target audience. The 'buy the races and classes you want' heavily implies they expect those who only play certain classes and races to just purchase those, which implies they expect people who know the rules to buy stuff, which implies we are intended customers (even if not the primary, which I highly doubt).
    Book PDF have a major drawback, that if you are looking for all races, or all classes available, you can't do so through a single file. A database like D&D Beyond, can let you search through all the books you have at once. It's not a replacement to a digital version of the book, but something with a different use in mind.

    And I'm still not convinced that long time player are the target audience. Having the possibility to buy a single class or race can be great for a casual player that only play elves, or play fighters/ranger and paladin. This way he don't need to buy the full rulebook, only the package that he find useful. Is it really worth it? I doubt so, but I've so many times be proven wrong by popularity of micro-transaction that I'm not a good reference here

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by DanyBallon View Post
    Book PDF have a major drawback, that if you are looking for all races, or all classes available, you can't do so through a single file. A database like D&D Beyond, can let you search through all the books you have at once. It's not a replacement to a digital version of the book, but something with a different use in mind.

    And I'm still not convinced that long time player are the target audience. Having the possibility to buy a single class or race can be great for a casual player that only play elves, or play fighters/ranger and paladin. This way he don't need to buy the full rulebook, only the package that he find useful. Is it really worth it? I doubt so, but I've so many times be proven wrong by popularity of micro-transaction that I'm not a good reference here
    I've used PDF's a lot in the past for convenience or because I could get them cheaply, and I totally understand and respect people that like them. I prefer books because I like books, plain and simple, and have a memory good enough to remember about what page I saw a particular rule on for when it's important.

    But I agree, a database is a wholly different creature and one that would be worth paying for. Just not the kind of price they're asking for here.

    I still might get some use out of the freebie rules compendium. Shame the character creator doesn't do the ONLY THING I wanted it to- create printable character sheets, a kind of bizarre oversight. I dislike when my players use digital character sheets at my table because I've had instances where they've been caught cheating. Too easy when I'd have to physically grab their phone/tablet to check their stats.

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Way to price yourselves out of sales, guys. No way am I paying that much plus a subscription for books I already own, and I strongly suspect much of the market will react similarly. I also suspect piracy of pdf versions will increase significantly.

    Just drop affordable pdfs on DMsguild, WotC. Seriously. They'll make up more in volume than this will through price, AND cut piracy since people will have a legal way to get the stuff for a reasonable price.
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Fflewddur Fflam View Post
    I've got news for you, there was no "online" in the eighties.
    I have news for you but my family had access to the internet using Prodigy in the 1980s and heck while it is just after the 80s the original Neverwinter Nights game was from 1991 and there were things that were used before that to play online before that.
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post

    I still might get some use out of the freebie rules compendium. Shame the character creator doesn't do the ONLY THING I wanted it to- create printable character sheets, a kind of bizarre oversight. I dislike when my players use digital character sheets at my table because I've had instances where they've been caught cheating. Too easy when I'd have to physically grab their phone/tablet to check their stats.
    You can print up character sheets as of the update on 8/4. It's... not entirely the best right now. Navigating to the printable pdf is unintuitive and requires going into the editor you use to create the character or selecting "export sheet" from a dropdown next to the character name. The way the printable sheets list features and traits needs a *lot* of work - at the moment they list unnecessary info like "hit points" and "proficiencies" (and just that, the actual hit points and proficiencies show up at the expected places on the sheet) while leaving out necessary info for features such as fighting style (they don't show you what type of fighting style) or pact boon (they don't list what pact boon you selected). It's beta still, so hopefully they smooth it out by the actual release.

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwalchavad View Post
    You can print up character sheets as of the update on 8/4. It's... not entirely the best right now. Navigating to the printable pdf is unintuitive and requires going into the editor you use to create the character or selecting "export sheet" from a dropdown next to the character name. The way the printable sheets list features and traits needs a *lot* of work - at the moment they list unnecessary info like "hit points" and "proficiencies" (and just that, the actual hit points and proficiencies show up at the expected places on the sheet) while leaving out necessary info for features such as fighting style (they don't show you what type of fighting style) or pact boon (they don't list what pact boon you selected). It's beta still, so hopefully they smooth it out by the actual release.
    Ahh, there it is. I thought that was a strange thing to be missing. It really should be somewhere easier to find. There's some hope for it yet.

    Still won't be dropping any money here.

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    I have news for you but my family had access to the internet using Prodigy in the 1980s and heck while it is just after the 80s the original Neverwinter Nights game was from 1991 and there were things that were used before that to play online before that.
    Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002.

    As for online gaming in the 80's - there were MUDs and the like that started back in the 80's. Text-based stuff was the limit back then. You also had usenet groups, too. And yeah, I am sure there was some stuff on CompuServ and Prodigy and the like, but mostly I stuck to local dial-up BBSes, myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002.
    No, he's right. You're thinking of the third person RPG released by Bioware. He's talking about (debatably) the world's first MMO, which was actually a major selling point for AOL back in the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    I have news for you but my family had access to the internet using Prodigy in the 1980s and heck while it is just after the 80s the original Neverwinter Nights game was from 1991 and there were things that were used before that to play online before that.
    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002.

    As for online gaming in the 80's - there were MUDs and the like that started back in the 80's. Text-based stuff was the limit back then. You also had usenet groups, too. And yeah, I am sure there was some stuff on CompuServ and Prodigy and the like, but mostly I stuck to local dial-up BBSes, myself.
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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002.

    As for online gaming in the 80's - there were MUDs and the like that started back in the 80's. Text-based stuff was the limit back then. You also had usenet groups, too. And yeah, I am sure there was some stuff on CompuServ and Prodigy and the like, but mostly I stuck to local dial-up BBSes, myself.
    I said "original" Neverwinter Nights the one in 2002 is a separate game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I'm not giving WotC any money until they're dragged into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if necessary. So no pdf for me.
    You're just starting with this now. I've been blackballing Hasbro in general for several years.

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    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    You're just starting with this now. I've been blackballing Hasbro in general for several years.
    The only thing I've bought from Hasbro in the last five or six years has been one (1) 5e Player's Handbook, because it was the new edition, I'd heard it was all new and improved, people seemed to like it, and I thought I could chance it.

    I got it, tried to run a game with the free monsters, and realised I didn't like running it. Fun to play though.

    But yeah, I've actually been completely boycotting Hasbro completely for about the last two years, mostly for the no pdf ********. But I didn't feel like a reason for boycotting WotC was really there until three years ago, when I realised how useful pdfs are. They only thing they produce I'm actually interested in is D&D, so it's not too hard.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    I've been boycotting them ever since their intrusive meddling caused MLPFIM to jump the shark in season 3, which was the straw that broke the camel's back after high prices, shutting down Dragon Magazine, deleting most of my favorite threads from their forum during one of it's unnecessary redesigns, and the half-baked 4e D&D alignment system
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2017-08-10 at 10:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    "My wife had the baby. I can't DM anymore, sorry."

    "I got a new job with a new schedule. I can't play."

    "You're being unfair. I quit and am not paying the subscriptions anymore."

    So what? I can think of a no-brainer real-world answer to every one of these that is no drama.

    Make an actual point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubba View Post
    So what? I can think of a no-brainer real-world answer to every one of these that is no drama.

    Make an actual point.
    The point being my point earlier where real life often interferes such that asking everyone to chip in to pay off the website to lessen the expense will lead to complications when one or more players have to leave the group, including the DM. It is not so simple as you conjectured.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erit View Post
    "The DM is the world, the gods, the trees and the bees. But no matter what covenant is struck or words exchanged, the DM is not the PCs."

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    I said "original" Neverwinter Nights the one in 2002 is a separate game.
    The original actually looks kinda interesting, mostly for its influence on later MMORPGs. As for 'internet', the first always-on networks were alive by the end of the '70s, and some of the major networks came alive in the early '80s (FidoNet).

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2016

    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Ha, why does the D&D website want me to create a Twitch account not a D&D account?

    Are these the same WOTC / Hasbro guys who couldn't make money off Axis & Allies War at Sea yet Shapeways can?

    There is something about Legacy and Standardization which has nothing to do with marketing or business skills.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    Ha, why does the D&D website want me to create a Twitch account not a D&D account?

    Are these the same WOTC / Hasbro guys who couldn't make money off Axis & Allies War at Sea yet Shapeways can?

    There is something about Legacy and Standardization which has nothing to do with marketing or business skills.
    The site/tool is made by Curse, which was bought by Twitch.tv a couple years ago, and twitch is owned by Amazon. WotC only licensed their IP to Curse, and presumably had a say in their (and roll20, and Fantasy Grounds) pricing, since FG is lowering their pricing to match DDB and R20.

    From a backend standpoint, it's probably easier to use Twitch's login system than create their own from scratch.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2014

    Default Re: D&D Beyond Pricing Released

    Am I the only one who doesn't actually think it is a terribly good character generator?

    Most other systems start with a character sheet, fill it out, and then have popups for descriptions. This one is pages of text and scrolling just to select your race... then pages of text and scrolling for your race, etc. Nor does it seem that great for new players... what XP system are we using? How are they going to know? I would say this would turn off most players.

    Nor do I think any new player would pay for this... simply as they don't know what they need to buy? Until they have an actual game to play in... with an actual DM telling them the setting, races, etc. how are they going to know what to buy? Even experienced games find the pricing baffling and they know what SRD vs. PHB is?

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