Brain Storming: A World Paved With Good Intentions

[DoomHat]

I'm hoping you good folks could help me think of the consequences and dynamics of a typical fantasy world, but with one major thing removed: there is no objective supernatural evil.
There are no demons, devils, or explicitly evil gods, and there is no negative energy channeling, or necromancy. Nothing possesses a supernaturally detectable innate good or evil alignment. Lawful and Chaotic alignments exist, but the duality is more in the vain of "Logical vs Intuitive" instead of "Legalistic vs Anarchistic".

Also, just for kicks, there are no halflings. Goblins replace them as a Player Character option.

As a starting point, here's two potential sources of conflict for the setting (replacements for character archetypes like Vecna or Orcus and such)...

Ser Eagleheart:
She is lord commander of The Golden Shield, the world's largest and most powerful order of paladins. The Golden Shield counts among its number almost countless paladins, fighters, and clerics, along with a fleet of terrifying monstrous allies such as flights of dragons and angels.
She's said to be morally incorruptible, physically unstoppable, and tactically unmatched. Her career was largely without public controversy until only a few years ago when she led the order to slaughter the entire royal family of a major human kingdom, claiming the land as now being under the order's sovereign protection and, "Free from tyranny". Rumor has it she and the inner counsel of The Golden Shield have imperial ambitions. It's said that Ser Eagleheart was struck by a holy vision from The God of Light commanding her to establish at any cost "A Reign of All Peoples Between the Furthest Horizons, A Peace That Will Endure A Thousand Years".

Fuasgald the Reclaimer:
Rumored to be some kind of vessel or incarnation of a High Fey or primordial elemental, Fuasgald is the current Archdruid, and has declared open war upon the cities of the world. Hordes of faerie folk along with supernaturally enhanced plants and beasts lead by druids of all races and backgrounds are laying siege to and eradicating civilized places. Once great metropolises and vast stretches of farmland are being reshaped forever into savage wilderness.

[Thunderfist12]

[T]here is no[...] necromancy.

I mean, technically you can have necromancy viewed as non evil in some faiths and still keep it. Like how the elves use it in Eberron - preserving the soul by preserving the flesh.

There are foundations of that philosophy in certain parts of Egyptian myth as well (though a lot of it varies by era). The soul remains until the flesh decays. In this sense, necromancy could be seen as a holy art, allowing the soul to live on even when it should be long expired.

Add this into orc or goblin culture and you have a reason for other races to hate them without making them savage or evil like virtually everyone else does.

[DoomHat]

I mean, technically you can have necromancy viewed as non evil in some faiths and still keep it. Like how the elves use it in Eberron - preserving the soul by preserving the flesh.

There are foundations of that philosophy in certain parts of Egyptian myth as well (though a lot of it varies by era). The soul remains until the flesh decays. In this sense, necromancy could be seen as a holy art, allowing the soul to live on even when it should be long expired.

Add this into orc or goblin culture and you have a reason for other races to hate them without making them savage or evil like virtually everyone else does.

I'd considered that, but I've seen too many settings that say on the tin "morally grey, nothing objectively evil", while the ingredients list still contains "the dread zombie legions of Lord Killgore Darkbad". The primary goal of the exercise is to create a fantasy setting the maximizes the opportunity for something other then yet more demons and zombies to be BBEGs.

I'm also convinced that everything you could conceivably do with necromancy is just as easily covered by other schools. Need to talk to a ghost? Divination. Want make a place haunted? Enchantment. Animate a corpse? Transmutation. So on and so forth.

[Kythia]

So my evil twin ("Evil Kythia" - my parents weren't very creative with names) who cheats at cards and kicks puppies and ties damsels to railway tracks can still exist in your world, presumably? Just because there's no supernatural evil doesn't mean there aren't people who are just plain evil.

Why can't a suitable divination spell notice that? The PCs meet her and, alarmed by the fact she has a goatee (she's kinda sensitive about it. Don't make a big deal of it.) they cast some divination spells. They can read her thoughts using ESP or similar but there's an absolute block in telling whether her vague musings about how flammable the local orphanage is are typical of her or its just a bad day? I dunno. I guess I just don't see how that would work. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

[DoomHat]

So my evil twin ("Evil Kythia" - my parents weren't very creative with names) who cheats at cards and kicks puppies and ties damsels to railway tracks can still exist in your world, presumably? Just because there's no supernatural evil doesn't mean there aren't people who are just plain evil.

Why can't a suitable divination spell notice that? The PCs meet her and, alarmed by the fact she has a goatee (she's kinda sensitive about it. Don't make a big deal of it.) they cast some divination spells. They can read her thoughts using ESP or similar but there's an absolute block in telling whether her vague musings about how flammable the local orphanage is are typical of her or its just a bad day? I dunno. I guess I just don't see how that would work. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

The important thing is that "Evil Kythia" could reasonably convince herself and others that she's actually the good guy. Just like real world monsters do. Sociopaths would still be a thing that exists within the setting, but whether or not they're a horrible person would have to be judged by a subjective accounting of their actions, as opposed to any kind of clean and easy litmus test on her soul.

[Kythia]

The important thing is that "Evil Kythia" could reasonably convince herself and others that she's actually the good guy. Just like real world monsters do. Sociopaths would still be a thing that exists within the setting, but whether or not they're a horrible person would have to be judged by a subjective accounting of their actions, as opposed to any kind of clean and easy litmus test on her soul.

OK, that makes sense. Thank you

[Thunderfist12]

[...] the ingredients list still contains "the dread zombie legions of Lord Killgore Darkbad". The primary goal of the exercise is to create a fantasy setting the maximizes the opportunity for something other then yet more demons and zombies to be BBEGs.

I mean technically that's not a necessity. You could have the reanimated souls still have all their original thoughts/tendencies - thus a zombie is neither a mindless soldier nor inherently evil. This opens it up as more of a replacement of sorts for resurrection. Instead of having limited undead followers, you have limited resurrections of souls that may or may not like you depending on who you reanimated.

Now, since they are neither mindless nor bound to your will, the idea of a zombie army isn't a practical one, as you'd be better off with living soldiers who still have enough physical functionality to fight well. Tag some high-costing spell components to the spells (different ones for each undead form) and it causes the undead to be very rare in the world.

This take opens up many options for npcs and possibly players as well (as they too can be reanimated with their persona intact). Perhaps a wise old healer whose tribe has kept him alive hundreds of years after his death, or a pious skeletal knight who stands guard over hallowed ground, kept alive by the enchantments of a long-passed sorcerer. In such models, the undead are viewed by some as angelic beings or the products of wondrous miracles, despite their physical decay. Or perhaps even BECAUSE of their decay - removing the flesh and all its temptations, bringing them closer to the gods.

(Sorry I'm still rambling and making the argument, it's just because I believe this could still fit rather well)

[Lleban]

So my evil twin ("Evil Kythia" - my parents weren't very creative with names) who cheats at cards and kicks puppies and ties damsels to railway tracks can still exist in your world, presumably? Just because there's no supernatural evil doesn't mean there aren't people who are just plain evil.

Do uh...how did they know which was evil Kythia. Was it the goatee at birth?


I'm not quite sure what Fuasgald the Reclaimer gains by exterminating civilized areas.

[Thunderfist12]

I'm not quite sure what Fuasgald the Reclaimer gains by exterminating civilized areas.

*Fuasgald leans stage left*
"Hey man what's my motivation? Like I get the whole 'druids hate society' bit but like, dude, why am I just straight up murdering people?"

[DoomHat]

I mean technically that's not a necessity. You could have the reanimated souls still have all their original thoughts/tendencies - thus a zombie is neither a mindless soldier nor inherently evil. This opens it up as more of a replacement of sorts for resurrection. Instead of having limited undead followers, you have limited resurrections of souls that may or may not like you depending on who you reanimated.

Now, since they are neither mindless nor bound to your will, the idea of a zombie army isn't a practical one, as you'd be better off with living soldiers who still have enough physical functionality to fight well. Tag some high-costing spell components to the spells (different ones for each undead form) and it causes the undead to be very rare in the world.

This take opens up many options for npcs and possibly players as well (as they too can be reanimated with their persona intact). Perhaps a wise old healer whose tribe has kept him alive hundreds of years after his death, or a pious skeletal knight who stands guard over hallowed ground, kept alive by the enchantments of a long-passed sorcerer. In such models, the undead are viewed by some as angelic beings or the products of wondrous miracles, despite their physical decay. Or perhaps even BECAUSE of their decay - removing the flesh and all its temptations, bringing them closer to the gods.

(Sorry I'm still rambling and making the argument, it's just because I believe this could still fit rather well)

No need to apologize, in fact I insist you continue. This is interesting stuff. How common is necromancy? Is it just one or two major nations/factions, or is every hamlet almost expected to have a necromancer along side the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker? Do you think the Golden Shields make extensive use of mummified paladins in their upper ranks?

I'm not quite sure what Fuasgald the Reclaimer gains by exterminating civilized areas.

He and his followers worship the natural world, and so large scale artifice and the clear cutting that comes with it are seen as anathema and "evil" to them. To them an ideal world is one in which agriculture and everything that comes with it is abolished. But obviously that's not going to happen on its own.

[Kythia]

Do uh...how did they know which was evil Kythia. Was it the goatee at birth?

No, of course not. She couldn't even grow the goatee until puberty and then it took her a few years to decide how to style it. I'd say she wasn't a consistent goatee wearer until about nineteen? Something like that. And, frankly, I resent your implication that a goatee alone would be enough to categorise her as evil. You need to check your privilege there, Lleban.

No. I'm the elder by a couple of minutes and when I was born a beam of pure white light lifted me from the midwife's hands towards the ceiling of the room whilst the heavenly host chanted my name in perfect unison, bringing everyone present to tears with the exquisite beauty of their tone. Then, bloodied and deformed, Evil Kythia (we call her "Evie") clawed her way from the womb with her cruel blackened talons - her every touch causing the crisp hospital bedsheets to blacken and char while outside the discordant shrieks of jackals and other unclean beasts gradually solidified into a chant of Ave Satani. Honestly, it wasn't exactly super hard to work out.

We did engage in an epic struggle for the fate of mankind for a bit but well...we were both babies. Neither of us could even support the weight of our own head, let alone battle for the destiny of humanity. It probably wasn't an "epic struggle" really, that was hyperbole. By the time we'd got old enough to actually summon our respective hosts to the battlefield at Meggido...meh, you get used to one another don't you. I'd discovered boys, she was big in to bathing in the blood of kittens, life just gets in the way.

This is all in the newspapers, by the way. It was quite a big story at the time. Do some googling.

Anyway. /hijack.

[Thunderfist12]

No need to apologize, in fact I insist you continue. This is interesting stuff. How common is necromancy? Is it one or two major nations/factions, or is every hamlet almost expected to have a necromancer along side the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker? Do you think the Golden Shields make extensive use of mummified paladins in their upper ranks?

All in all they'd be rare at best, but there are a few cultural roles I could see them in (not all are mutually exclusive and could be combined).

1. The undead walk alongside their living counterparts, filling the same occupations they did in life. Thus, ancient techniques of blacksmithing, weaving, etc. can be learned directly from the people who made them - if they are willing to teach you.

2. The undead are used as academics, writing firsthand accounts of ancient history and teaching it to prospective scholars. In societies using this role, most high-ranking priests are undead.

3. The undead are used to unearth divine truths, resurrected to be consulted by priests as oracles and semi-divine beings, as they have seen the afterlife firsthand.

4. The undead are hired as guardsmen, bodyguards, and inquisitors, as they have eternity to learn the subtleties of law and are unable to feel pain or fear.

5. A few nobles, such as powerful kings and queens, can be undead, their reign lasting generations longer than the lives of their own children. They'd be seen as gods among men - imagine the Egyptian pharaohs but already mummified/skeletal/whatever.

6. Many undead will be religious as all Hell (pun intended), so the roles of holy knights, missionaries, and prophets come naturally to them.

7. If a culture mummifies/mummified the dead, imagine the pcs stumbling upon the preserved remains of an ancient hero who might know something related to their quest. It would now be possible to resurrect him and speak to him in person about it, perhaps leading the way to a lost city or teaching the party mage a forgotten spell required to overcome an otherwise impassable obstacle.

8. Some cultures who misunderstand the nature of undeath might treat them like many ancient cultures treated lepers, banishing them to the edge of society, forcing them to be covered entirely while in town, and giving them a wide berth. (Upon the Nature of Undeath sounds like a tome on necromancy.)

A few ideas as well:
- Gentle Repose and other such spells are now more like curses, as they now prevent you from returning to life.
- Ghouls and other flesh/blood eaters don't necessarily have to feed on humanoids. Imagine a ghoulish cave-dwelling oracle who lives on the blood of animal sacrifices, or a zombified priest who eats the rotting leftovers from the butchery.
- Proper burials are likely above ground in undead loving society. Graveyards contain crypts, mausoleums, and sarcophagi, all the keys held by the skeletal grave-tender.
- Minor spells involving the dead (ie. warding or communing) are likely common among hedge mages and witches, though true necromancy isn't a common thing.
- Maybe the undead lose more of their soul the more rotted they become. Skeletons adhering to oaths with no memory as to why, while mummies and fresher ghouls/zombies are more intact, though eventually they all end up as skeletons.
- Imagine a circle of "Leper-Priests" as the leaders of a great religious movement, bringing miracles like healings and resurrections in their wake.

[Zorku]

If you just don't want to focus on the usual forces of evil, then you probably have to custom tailor things to your players a little more carefully. You oppose supernatural evil because it is an existential threat and thus you have an automatic reason to care, but you oppose lots of other things too, based on your own reasons, even if that's just so you can get paid.

If the party includes a monk that wants to recover the lost history of their tradition then you can set them up against the former disciple that sundered the order. It's very easy to declare that they did so for evil reasons, but just think up some actual reasons someone would want to do that. Nihilistic tendencies tend to crop up when people realize that they've been living a lie and lack some other framework to immediately cling to so it could very easily be something to that effect.

If you've got a klepto gnome that's into fireworks maybe you introduce a strikingly similar gnome that keeps trying to show them up and muscle in on their shtick.

If you've got a strong silent type half orc fighter then... well, honestly, they're probably just gonna go where ever the party does and serve as the muscle as often as needed, but maybe they've got younger family members to support or something.


These ideas all probably sound like a lot of mid tier play stuff you already do. Without graduating to fighting angels and devils in order to keep existing, you mostly just scale this kind of stuff up. It's tempting to resolve the monk's story when they bring that wayward student to justice, the gnome's story when they disgrace their rival, and the half orc's when... well really you just keep putting stuff in front of him to kill, so forget about the half orc... but you can keep those things just by not gathering up all of the loose ends into a tidy package that they take care of all at once. In soap opera/drama fashion, the answer to any big question should basically leave some other question unanswered. What exactly was it that the wayward student thought was so awful about the teachings (and why didn't he just tell you instead of fighting to the death. Damn monks and their always being elusive like that!) Te gnome you disgraced took to a life of selling people pygmy kobolds as pets, but those things are terrified of fireworks and the town is trying to ban them now (and it has nothing to do with the 2 and a half forests that recently burned down.)

As they develop connections to NPCs or organizations your threats can target them and the party will step in to try and shield whoever, whether for selfless reasons, to protect investments, or because bullying these people is MY job.

[DoomHat]

If you just don't want to focus on the usual forces of evil, then you probably have to custom tailor things to your players a little more carefully. You oppose supernatural evil because it is an existential threat and thus you have an automatic reason to care, but you oppose lots of other things too, based on your own reasons, even if that's just so you can get paid.
-sip-

I mean, I'd expect to include or see included this kind of thing in most games regardless of setting.
The main point of the thread is that I couldn't get the question out of my mind, "What if instead of yet another lich, the BBEG of a setting was a druid or a paladin?".

From there I started wondering how big an impact that would have on other elements of the setting. Further more, what does a high magic setting look like without demons?

So far, I'm just kinda feeling disappointed that no one else seems anywhere near as fascinated by the quandary as I am...

[Kythia]

I mean, I'd expect to include or see included this kind of thing in most games regardless of setting.
The main point of the thread is that I couldn't get the question out of my mind, "What if instead of yet another lich, the BBEG of a setting was a druid or a paladin?".

From there I started wondering how big an impact that would have on other elements of the setting. Further more, what does a high magic setting look like without demons?

So far, I'm just kinda feeling disappointed that no one else seems anywhere near as fascinated by the quandary as I am...

See, maybe this is just a difference in background, but, well, both those things are possible in standard DnD. Paladin less so, perhaps, but Druids can be Neutral Evil (or Chaotic Neutral) and I guess OOTS itself has a wonderful depiction of how Paladins turn evil without realising they have done. I just don't really see the necessity for this change if that's the goal you're trying to reach. To me, personally, the removal of supernatural absolute evil doesn't affect the viability of either of those concepts at all - making this almost two different conversations:

1)How can a druid/paladin be the BBEG
2)What does a world look like without supernatural evil

And I've been focusing on (2)

[Zorku]

I mean, I'd expect to include or see included this kind of thing in most games regardless of setting.
The main point of the thread is that I couldn't get the question out of my mind, "What if instead of yet another lich, the BBEG of a setting was a druid or a paladin?".

From there I started wondering how big an impact that would have on other elements of the setting. Further more, what does a high magic setting look like without demons?

So far, I'm just kinda feeling disappointed that no one else seems anywhere near as fascinated by the quandary as I am...

Oh, I couldn't tell that's what you were going for at all.

"Evil light" isn't that unusual of a concept in pop culture. Really any kind of purification obsession that conflicts with other values should work there. Some tree nymph that can't be with the bad boy that she swoons for because some druid has declared that he's a bad influence on her, and order of paladins that brings down righteous retribution on the heads of evil doers... but also causes enough collateral damage to make the party blush.

Taken to BBEG proportions... a druid is trying to awaken a hive mind. Something like a colony of giant ants. (Perhaps a communal variety of ankheg?) They're already pretty dangerous and powerful, but if they can start to actively engineer solutions to their problems then the colony will grow quite a bit larger, and wipe some humanoid settlement off the map.

BBEG paladin has been done lots before, but how about one that didn't get the memo about how there's no supernatural evil in this setting? Deeply concerned with exorcism and convinced that everything is teetering on the edge of ruin, when there's no real threat. Ambiguous little things are terrible omens to them, nothing happens but they still take it as a sign or as a fulfilled prophecy. To the party's bewilderment this paladin is drawing in a large following, and at some critical mass the followers will all do something with harsh consequences that can't be taken back (probably some iconoclasm destruction of historic art and social reform away from modern values codified into law, but there are other angles that work too.)

[Thunderfist12]

BBEG paladin has been done lots before, but how about one that didn't get the memo about how there's no supernatural evil in this setting? Deeply concerned with exorcism and convinced that everything is teetering on the edge of ruin, when there's no real threat. Ambiguous little things are terrible omens to them, nothing happens but they still take it as a sign or as a fulfilled prophecy. To the party's bewilderment this paladin is drawing in a large following, and at some critical mass the followers will all do something with harsh consequences that can't be taken back (probably some iconoclasm destruction of historic art and social reform away from modern values codified into law, but there are other angles that work too.)

This works even better with the nonevil undead idea, as the BBEG paladin may see them as abominations.

(btw posted more on undead above in case you passed it)

[DuctTapeKatar]

There is a simple solution to make undead a non-evil presence: make it natural.

Often, ghosts and such are often descibed as dying violent, untimely deaths, and such things are common enough (even accidents can be gruesome enough to drag a soul from the veil). But, more often than not, these things are treated as unnatural, bizzare monstrosoties against nature, despite the chance that ghosts can occur naturally (not every ghost or zombie has to be brought back by a necromancer).

The removal of the necromancer from a zombie or ghost's origins makes them much more interesting than the overdone trope of Lich-lord-Mc-murderface.

[Thunderfist12]

The removal of the necromancer from a zombie or ghost's origins makes them much more interesting than the overdone trope of Lich-lord-Mc-murderface.

I mean. That depends. All you'd be doing is taking away from the undead lore. In my opinion it's better to rewrite or replace than to eliminate in most cases.

[Crazy Author]

Unless I've misunderstood one of the posts, I don't think this has been explicitly stated yet:

Is there objective supernatural Good?

That's going to have a large impact on how the setting is affected.

a)No one has ever seen, nor ever will, direct evidence there really is an abyss to fall into after dying, but Todd down the street did see angels three separate times before he settled down from a life of adventure, so we should probably listen to those "good priests" to some minimum degree.

b)The priests of all sides say they're right, and don't get me wrong, they cast some helpful/hurtful neat magical effects, but I dunno about all this 'afterlife' stuff they preach. I mean, I've never heard of an angel or devil actually showing up anywhere, have you?

c)Pick a side son. I've seen devils, and I've seen archons. I won't preach to you like some cleric on which way you should go, but you don't want to end up with the one you maybe bad-mouthed a few times while you were alive.

As examples of the different philosophies that may arise depending on the answer. Obviously C is out from the OP, just included for completeness of concept.

[DoomHat]

Unless I've misunderstood one of the posts, I don't think this has been explicitly stated yet:

Is there objective supernatural Good?

That's going to have a large impact on how the setting is affected.

a)No one has ever seen, nor ever will, direct evidence there really is an abyss to fall into after dying, but Todd down the street did see angels three separate times before he settled down from a life of adventure, so we should probably listen to those "good priests" to some minimum degree.

b)The priests of all sides say they're right, and don't get me wrong, they cast some helpful/hurtful neat magical effects, but I dunno about all this 'afterlife' stuff they preach. I mean, I've never heard of an angel or devil actually showing up anywhere, have you?

c)Pick a side son. I've seen devils, and I've seen archons. I won't preach to you like some cleric on which way you should go, but you don't want to end up with the one you maybe bad-mouthed a few times while you were alive.

As examples of the different philosophies that may arise depending on the answer. Obviously C is out from the OP, just included for completeness of concept.

There are gods, and angels who serve them, who sustain a heavenly bureaucracy which 'claims' to represent objective good, but in the vain of classical pantheistic mythology, the gods are capricious and eternally feuding among one another. None are 'evil' per say, but many are indifferent to or even occasionally amused by human suffering.

[Thunderfist12]

(nudge) please scroll up idk if you saw the undead additions (nudge)

[Crazy Author]

There are gods, and angels who serve them, who sustain a heavenly bureaucracy which 'claims' to represent objective good, but in the vain of classical pantheistic mythology, the gods are capricious and eternally feuding among one another. None are 'evil' per say, but many are indifferent to or even occasionally amused by human suffering.

Ooh. Lots of possibility there for all sorts of political fun between Paladins of various divine sources, then. Without the litmus test of good/evil as being supernaturally provable, or the obvious opposing force of traditional supernaturally evil forces: Paladins usual stick-in-the-mud behavior is now applied to their specific theocratic policies ascribed to; interactions between Paladins negotiating/escorting diplomats of nations/other institutes on opposite sides of any given issue could/would become as much about keeping the Paladins from coming to blows inside of three sentences as about the negotiations themselves; the word "crusade" might become part of commoners' regular parlance, in much the manner of a period of crusades in our-world; etc.

And that's just Paladins, not taking into account standard mortal shenanigans like: "I want my neighbor's wife. Is that cool, or...?" "...no. That falls under 'not' cool, according to Hera." "Oh. ...well, I worship Zeus now. Gotta go home for a few hours before my neighbor gets back from his job, priest, but this has been a good talk."

To clarify further: do the deities/their servants take direct hands in things often, specifically by making certain they are seen to be doing so?

[God_of_Awesome]

You are playing with this far more than I have. I just tried to ditch "Race Is Usually Evil, pretty much almost always", this is a cut above.

Mind, I've considered decoupling the Outer Planes from any objective morality. Fiends aren't made of evil, they're just *******s. Angels aren't made of good, they're just extremely empathetic.