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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    It's worth noting that the bludgeon serves as a symbol of political authority even in many modern democracies, where ceremonial maces and hammers abound in parliamentary and judicial settings. I don't know how far back this goes, but it certainly wouldn't be shocking to see a king carrying a ceremonial club. Carry a big stick and all that.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    It's worth noting that the bludgeon serves as a symbol of political authority even in many modern democracies, where ceremonial maces and hammers abound in parliamentary and judicial settings. I don't know how far back this goes, but it certainly wouldn't be shocking to see a king carrying a ceremonial club. Carry a big stick and all that.
    It's very old. The first description of a sceptre in western literature is in the Ilias. The kings hold it in turns while speaking, and Odysseus uses it as a club to beat up an insolent soldier of low birth. In a flashback he also receives it when sent as an ambassador to Troy, and he moves it to create expectation in the listeners.

    Roman centurions bore a 1 m long vine staff. It was a symbol of their status and a way to punish soldiers.

    The thing I find most interesting are the imperial ensigns of Massentius, which were excavated in 2005. https://biatec.wordpress.com/2015/07...-di-massenzio/ All of the sceptres have globes on them. They look a lot like maces to me.

    However, in the times of Augustus, the symbol of imperium was a spear.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Armor works, and it works well, that much we can be certain of. But there is a lot of debate around the specifics.

    Quality

    Nor all armor is made equal, and I don't mean mail and plate, I mean two pieces of mail in the same period, the same place and often by the same manufacturer. Less than consistent metallurgy aside, there always are cheaper but worse versions of all equipment, be it swords, armor or pottery.

    When you start to talk about or test armor, you have to consider this. Are you testing cobbled-together stuff that quickly assembled militia would have, solid middle range that most knights would use, or top of the line armament of dukes? Most of us here are familiar with what the equipment was like at battle of Gotland.

    I think it's pretty obvious this will impact your results a lot.

    Edge cases

    When you put an armor on mannequin, brace it against a wall and thrust through it, you're not really simulating real combat conditions - those are pretty impossible to simulate without at least some animal cruelty. A lot of the tests are made to simulate edge cases of what is the most that could happen, ThegnThrand is a good example of tests like this.

    While these do have value, they don't tell you what was usual on the battlefield.

    Then there's the training factor, and that's hard to account for. If someone knows to go with the blow, armor will protect him a lot better than someone who braces.

    Battle of Nations

    It has little value in this discussion, the equipment there is so over-engineered that it resembles medieval armor in look only, if that. When your helmet is twice the thickness of the originals, it will protect you a lot better, even from blunt blows, that's how inertia works.

    Breaking a bone through the armor with a sword is possible, but why would you try? It's also hard and rather pointless if you can stab a guy in the face. There are times when you're in a pinch and will have to try, but it's not a go-to tactic.

    Last caveat tot his is that hitting someone in armor like this may very well be defensive in nature, deliver your hit to stop his or to stop his step.

    Maces

    I'll just reiterate that Kyjev was famous for making a high-quality composite mace heads from about the end of migration period, so Eastern Europe was very familiar with them, even if they weren't rank and file weapon.

    Latin Europe and cavalry

    If Latin Europe means Holy Roman Empire (which includes present day Germany, northern Italy, Austria and Czech Republic) then yes, town militias were in constant civil conflict with knights. For the rest of the Europe, not so much. I can't really speak for Scandinavia, "Russia", Poland and "Spain", since they are out of my area of expertise, so I'll just focus on Hungary (which includes most of Balkans and Croatia).

    For the duration of middle ages, there was basically zero conflict between townsmen and nobility. Cities, especially those with privileges, were an important player both politically and militarily, but they never sought independence at this time, in part quite possibly because they were given a LOT of freedom and privileges. What you did see was cities siding with this or that faction in struggles for the throne, but that was more an extension of nobility politics.

    Of course, there is a massive, tremendous amount of research that says otherwise, but look at the dating on that. Anything, ANYTHING from the former Soviet sphere of influence will tell you this narrative, simply because all research had to abide by Soviet doctrines of class struggle (you got thrown in jail otherwise, and your family was blacklisted from ever gaining higher education or a good job). Problem is, a lot of people who were/are unaware of this take older works at their word, when you need to read between the lines.

    Hungary didn't escape these struggles, though. The uprising of György Dózsa was very different from the HRE wars, though, since it came from the serfs, not town militias, and was brutally, brutally suppressed. After this, you start to see internal problems and reprisals that will give rise to nationalist struggles of non-magyars in Hungary and eventually tear it apart post WW1.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    I've never done it myself, but my understanding of BOTN is that they actually have gone to much thinner armor. They initially had a kind of arms race where armor was getting heavier and heavier, but the game is actually about knocking people down (that is how you win a match - knocking the other guys down) and the heavier armor was actually contributing to injuries, so now they have a maximum weight for armor which is quite light. This was made possible by switching to tempered steel armor instead of mild steel (or essentially, wrought iron) like a lot of SCA etc. armor in the US. I don't remember what the weight limit is now off hand (somebody can maybe look it up) but I remember it was quite low. Less than 50 pounds for a full panoply IIRC.

    Which is very interesting because that is precisely what happened in medieval Europe - they switched to steel and then tempered steel (especially out of South German centers like Augsburg) and armor got much lighter very generally speaking. Some Gothic Harness were ~ 30 lbs.

    Town vs. noble
    As for the towns, I don't want to give the impression of permanent class struggle either, that is an exaggeration. You have a good point about the Communist Era but the reverse is also true further West, there was, and to some extent still is a tendency to tell the stories of the high nobility and completely ignore all commoners including the towns altogether, and when they were mentioned at all it was usually in a kind of belittling way, with failed uprisings emphasized and successes never mentioned. The only people in the West who even know about the Hussites are people deep into military history and the origins of modern firearms.

    As a general rule, the towns fought nobles when they had to in order to protect their privileges and their rights - to protect the freedom of the roads and their people traveling from place to place. They had much more conflict with the lower nobility than with the kings or princes but there were periods of fights with the latter every few generations. It was more typical however for the towns to ally themselves with factions of princes (high ranking nobles) against other ones, at least nominally, though their main goal was always their own, mainly economic interests, as opposed to the "Game of Thrones" which the princes were perpetually involved in.

    The history of towns vs. nobles varied a lot by region so I'll break it down that way.

    Latin Europe
    Means basically the Latinized part of Europe - which correlates to the lands under the Catholic umbrella, which also tended to use Latin as an international administrative language, and adopted a wide slew of other Roman customs- as opposed to the (Greek) Orthodox zone (most of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Greece, and some of the Balkans) which followed Orthodox Christianity and adapted versions of the Greek written language and so on (with a strong Byzantine influence), and the pagan zone (mainly up in the Baltic areas) which had their own interesting but poorly documented cultural traditions.

    Italy
    Northern Italy as I mentioned before basically threw out the Emperor and the would-be king in the 12th-13th Centuries. Then followed a period of cultural genesis but also infighting between Italian city-states. All of the above peaked in the 15th Century when Italy was the cultural epicenter of Europe in just about every measurable way, but they started coming under increasing pressure from outside Monarchs eager to seize the great wealth generated there: France, Spain, and the Holy Roman Emperor. The Pope himself also became a powerful prince and nominal alliance with the pope vs. the Emperor (Guelph vs. Ghiibelline) also contributed to infighting among the Italian cities.

    Southern Italy was owned by a series of various mostly foreign rulers, including France but especially Spain. Naples was an important city culturally and economically but never really independent like the ones in the North.

    By the end of the 16th Century constant massive foreign invasions had beaten down Lombard and Tuscan Italian City-States only Venice was still truly independent.

    Holy Roman Empire
    The towns in the HRE fought wars against regional overlords (like the Archbishops of Strasbourg or Bremen, or the Herzog of Bavaria) when they had to or in order to achieve independence, but most of them did not have territorial ambitions the way the Italian City States like Milan, Genoa, Venice, or Florence did. There were basically 3 zones - Southern Germany where there were powerful manufacturing towns like Augsburg and Nuremberg, the Rhineland dotted with mighty citadels of trade and manufacturing like Strasbourg and Cologne, and then up north along the seas with the Hanseatic league trading towns, dominated by Lubeck and Hamburg (later Danzig up in Prussia).

    The Hanse was probably the most aggressive, taking on England and Denmark several times and facing down regional Dukes of Holstein and Mecklenberg, and even the Emperor, the Duke of Burgundy, and various other monarchs when necessary. The Rhineland towns tended to fight when they had to, and contributed to the defeat of Duke Charles the Bold of Burgundy, but were mainly worried about Robber Knights and often sided with the princes against them. The South-German towns also mainly fought with robber knights but got into turf wars with the princes sometimes (losing famously at Doffingen). Nuremberg was probably the strongest and usually came out on top in their conflicts. (we also happen to know they hired Talhoffer as muscle to kill a robber knight in one occasion)

    Switzerland
    The Swiss confederation started out as a peasant uprising but became quickly dominated by the militia of two cities - Berne and Zurich. Zurich once tried to break away and was defeated in war but retained their autonomy and power.

    France
    France started out on a similar path to Northern Italy, with the Champagne faires in Normandy, the Universities in Paris and Toulouse and Montpelieir, and the thriving cities of Langedoc. The latter were crushed and wiped out in a smoking ruin in the Albigensian Crusades, one of the many internal Crusades in Europe. The larger and more important French towns kept pace with Central Europe until the end of the 14th Century when French monarchs increasingly restricted autonomy. After that they remained behind though they still had many towns - they were more like mediatstadt or territorial towns, basically under the thumb of their regional prince or the king.

    England
    England was not as urbanized as Italy or Central Europe in the middle ages but they did have some important trading towns including London, York and Boston among others, which had town rights similar to the HRE. This was curtailed in the 1390's though still lingered in residual form a bit longer. From that point onward though urban militias were not able to really act on their own

    Flanders
    Flanders was the most important cultural zone in medieval Europe after Northern Italy, and their powerful trade and manufacturing towns like Bruges, Ghent, Lieges, Ypres and many others, proved to be highly assertive and had powerful militias. They were also, like in Italy and the Rhineland, at the forefront of military technology like cannon. After a volatile period of uprisings and crackdowns, (including the famous urban victory at the Battle of Golden Spurs) they achieved a kind of alliance with a spin-off from the French monarchy, the powerful Valois Dukes of Burgundy, who for several generations existed in an uneasy harmony with the Flemish city-states, sometimes fighting them, more often allied with them, always benefiting from their great wealth and cultural power. They had a run of very good Dukes (really in effect Kings) especially Philip the Good who was one of the most effective monarchs in European history, but his son Charles the Bold got himself killed by the Swiss and Rhineland cities, and shortly after that the Duchy of Burgundy was inherited by the Hapsburgs, and that in turn came to mean by Spain, ushering in a period of brutal Spanish occupation, wars and decline. Most of the cultural power moved north to Holland - a zone dominated by Free cities which broke free of Spain after the 80 Years War and became one of the great world powers.

    Scandinavia
    Not very urbanized and the few small towns (like Stockholm and Visby) were mostly run by foreginers, especially Germans. They had a very strong and independent peasantry however and their cities were involved with the Hanse and could count on other cities for support. They were involved in all the politics of the region, battles for control between Denmark and Sweden etc.

    Poland
    Not highly urbanized except in Prussia which became part of Poland in the 15th Century. Most of the cities were run by Germans and other Westerners, at least initially. A few, notably Lviv and Krakow and (after a successful war of independence against the Teutonic Knights - in the 13 years War) the Prussian cities led by Danzig and Torun, proved to be quite powerful and independent. Krakow in particular played a crucial role in thwarting the 3rd and last major Mongol Invasion of Poland - as luck would have it only one year after their first stone walls were completed. Danzig also became a very powerful force to be reckoned with in the second half of the 15th Century, on par with Lubeck. As Militarily important allies the towns here tended to side with the Polish (Lithuanian) King against the Germans even though the urban populations were themselves German speaking, because the Poles respected their rights whereas the Teutonic Knights often didnt', and the Russians or Mongols etc. definitely wouldn't.

    Bohemia
    Lots of towns, some German speaking populations but a lot also with Czech. The Czechs seem to have been the most urbanized of the slavs. Prague was an important university town and seat of the HRE under Emperor Charles IV, and they tended to side with the princes usually, until the Hussite Wars of the 1420's. After that Prague and the other Czech and Moravian towns (Brno, Tabor, Pilsen, Wroclaw) were assertive and sided with one faction or the other (Hussite or Catholic) but exercized their own policies and were kind of their own faction who had to be taken into consideration. Prague and Wroclaw were particularly tough and usually on opposite sides. Like the Flemish, German and Italian towns, the Czech towns were innovative in military technology and tended to introduce game changing weaponry to the battlefield.

    I wanted to get into Livonia and Spain but i don't have time...

    By and large, the extent of the 'militancy' depended on the strength of the towns and how hard they were pushed. Some rose up to the challenge, others like in France or Spain or England, collapsed under the pressure from a strong Monarch. It certainly wasn't class struggle all the time, and the towns were usually ambivalent about peasant uprisings for example (sometimes cautiously supportive, sometimes part of the crack-down). In general they just wanted their rights and autonomy respected and preferred to keep the peace. In much of the HRE and parts of Slavic Central Europe this lasted a very long time, for centuries. Lubeck and Danzig lasted as partly autonomous until WW 2.

    G
    Last edited by Galloglaich; 2017-08-15 at 10:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Pathfinder's Warden of the Woods is described as a set of splint mail made of enchanted wood that can be worn by Druids, but mail usually implies the inclusion of chain in the armor, which is metal. This holds true for most examples of "splinted armor" which just has strips of metal reinforcing chain sleeves. Are there examples of splinted armor that don't have chain in its construction? What would such armor look like? I'm eager for Druid armor that looks more distinguished than crudely stitched together pelts, but I don't wanna look like a darn Roman in lorica segmentata!
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2017-08-15 at 02:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    What sort of armor and weapons would have been common in 5th and 6th century Britain, especially the types of metal? I've been looking and haven't been able to find anything satisfactory. It seems too early for steel to be common.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Varon View Post
    What sort of armor and weapons would have been common in 5th and 6th century Britain, especially the types of metal? I've been looking and haven't been able to find anything satisfactory. It seems too early for steel to be common.
    You would have some steel swords though of special construction (pattern welded). Everything else would be iron or bronze. There were still Romans there until 410 so largely thanks to them iron would be around in some quantity. The Romans had a center for making 'steel' swords in Noricum near modern day Croatia and those would be brought into England.

    England was also an important production center for silver and tin - tin being a key component of bronze.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Question again: Anyone has any idea what is the proper name for this thing? Oversized plumbata?

    I heard that it was pretty common among landskecht, does it has a German name?

    Last edited by wolflance; 2017-08-16 at 01:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Varon View Post
    What sort of armor and weapons would have been common in 5th and 6th century Britain, especially the types of metal? I've been looking and haven't been able to find anything satisfactory. It seems too early for steel to be common.
    As G said: the Romans would be very influential in the earliest part of the period. But quite quickly you would get early Anglo-Saxon kind of gear, and when you define it as 5th and 6th Century I assume thats what you are after.

    Basic "kit" (most common items) would be a spear and a shield:
    The shield are round with a centre grip. I am unsure wheather they where domed at this time, the area where (Northern Germany/Jutland/Frisia) Anglo-Saxon came they remained flat, but at some point English shields seem to have become smaller, and some suggest sligthly domed. I thinkt they would have remained flat in the 5th and 6th Century. Diametre of 85-105cm is documented for the period on the continent, but I have seen suggestions that the Anglo-Saxon ones could go Down to smaller (though I think its more of an 7th-8th Century thing). It generally easier to find information on the 8th century onward stuff.

    As a side arm a "small sax" is most common in Britain (treat as a dagger rather than a sword). The longer ones are typically later. Though long single edged swords are known from Scandinavia at the timem, but mainly to the North and East.

    A double edged swords exiast and is a weapon for the dedicated warrior (a village chiefatain might own one or he might not depending on his wealth, but above that level a person would efinitely have one). Really elites should have "ring-swords". Possibly made in England.

    Next thing to add would be a helmet. Sutton Hoo is Again slightly too young (7th Century), but should give you an idea. Its a really high status person so tone it Down a bit. Similar helmets are found in Sweden also from the 7th Century (and possibly late 6th). I think the "basic" type of helmet would be widespread in Northern Europe also in the 6th Century (at least thats the best we can get). From various sources, textual and achaeological helmets seem to be relatively rare in Scandinavia during this period. Swords seem more common.

    For body armour mail is the only thing you would see in britain at this time, and it would be a relatively expensive thing, reserved for high status individuals. Most village chieftains would not have one.

    The order of weapons/armour a person would get might be something like this: spear - sax - shield- axe/sword - helmet - mail. Note that dedicated "weapon" axes are not common this early (they become very popular for the warrior class in the 9th and especially 10th Century).

    Basically this is weapon system is seen across Northern Europe outside Roman influence from the 2nd centyr AD until the viking age with minor variations.

    Weapons out of "good steel" was not common. Instead you mix "iron" or soft steel with harder steel, but this steel isnt like later steel able to flex as much, Thus in can snap during use. In order to prevent this you mix it with the softer one, as G says "pattern welded". This is common, especially in high end swords. You see a wide variaty going from realtively soft non steel swords (mainly shorter Saxes, but also some swords) to really well made swords with many layers, some twisted in various ways (similar to how katanas is made). In between you have some made of an "iron" cor and steel edges. Similar we have spears with a steel point, "wrapped" in iron, so its the point of the point thats steel (if that makes sense). The mail would not be high quality steel, but very "soft" steel or iron.

    I dont think we have any bronze weapons in the period at all (definitely not on the continent: bronze weaponry stopped way before this). Maybe a few buckles for the mail, and as shield bosses for the shields though (at least on the continent, around 20% of shields have copper/bronze bosses in the 2-4th Century, becoming rarerer toward the 7t Century, but almost no evidence in the 5-6th centry compared to both earlier and later.
    Last edited by Tobtor; 2017-08-16 at 02:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Pathfinder's Warden of the Woods is described as a set of splint mail made of enchanted wood that can be worn by Druids, but mail usually implies the inclusion of chain in the armor, which is metal. This holds true for most examples of "splinted armor" which just has strips of metal reinforcing chain sleeves. Are there examples of splinted armor that don't have chain in its construction? What would such armor look like? I'm eager for Druid armor that looks more distinguished than crudely stitched together pelts, but I don't wanna look like a darn Roman in lorica segmentata!
    It's true that to some degree chain mail is a redundant term, but let's not let those grumpy sword-categorisers decide everything! Most historical weapons and armour would not have been categorised in ways we try to today (giving us guisarm-glaive-guisarms :P).
    Quick look and what you want is "lamellar armour". The D&D people simple use another term to cover to broadly similar types of armour focusing on the common denominator, i.e. small (metal) plates atached together to form flexible yet covering armour. So the correct reading is "the Warden of the Woods is a set of lamellar armour..."

    Imagine something like Japanese armours e.g. the medieaval types were metal and/or leather splints (effectively) bound together with silk cord (spider's thread! :P). You've got a lot of freedom to tailor the look.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2017-08-16 at 03:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Pathfinder's Warden of the Woods is described as a set of splint mail made of enchanted wood that can be worn by Druids, but mail usually implies the inclusion of chain in the armor, which is metal. This holds true for most examples of "splinted armor" which just has strips of metal reinforcing chain sleeves. Are there examples of splinted armor that don't have chain in its construction? What would such armor look like? I'm eager for Druid armor that looks more distinguished than crudely stitched together pelts, but I don't wanna look like a darn Roman in lorica segmentata!
    Mail, by itself, simply means armor, and that's about it. The word for it was widely used at a time when that meant chain mail in Europe, so the term stuck to it, but there's technically nothing wrong with applying it to, say, full plate. Very technically.

    Splinted armor without mail was pretty common, especially for forearms and foreleg protection (there are woodcarvings of Carolingian cavalrymen wearing those), but not as common for the rest. I don't think splint armor as such is a thing, closest to it would be lamellar and then various types of armor that use integrated metal plates to help protection, mostly of Indian and near east origin.

    Easy way to make the armor you're looking for is to replace chain mail in it with padded cloth and call it a day. At this point, you're essentially creating a weird coat-of-plates or brigandine, and wearing those without chain mail is perfectly fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflance
    Question again: Anyone has any idea what is the proper name for this thing? Oversized plumbata?

    I heard that it was pretty common among landskecht, does it has a German name?
    That's almost certainly azcona, javelin used by Iberian almogavars - they got their own unit in Medieval 2 Total War. This kind of dual-purpose spear/javelin with fletching pops up from time to time in Europe, and Landsknechts did use them for a short period of time before they retired them in favour of pikes.

    They are mostly associated with Moors or naval warfare, but not exclusively so - I think it's because having a ship eliminates a lot of supply problems with javelins.

    As for specifically German name, well, Speerwurf, which translates to "throwing spear", as German doesn't have a specific word to it. Which is pretty interesting, since English and a lot of Slavic languages do, but perhaps we shouldn't read too much into it.
    That which does not kill you made a tactical error.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    It's true that to some degree chain mail is a redundant term, but let's not let those grumpy sword-categorisers decide everything! Most historical weapons and armour would not have been categorised in ways we try to today (giving us guisarm-glaive-guisarms :P).
    Quick look and what you want is "lamellar armour". The D&D people simple use another term to cover to broadly similar types of armour focusing on the common denominator, i.e. small (metal) plates atached together to form flexible yet covering armour. So the correct reading is "the Warden of the Woods is a set of lamellar armour..."

    Imagine something like Japanese armours e.g. the medieaval types were metal and/or leather splints (effectively) bound together with silk cord (spider's thread! :P). You've got a lot of freedom to tailor the look.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour
    Using modern, non-rpg categorization, scale, lamellar, laminar and splint armor tend to refer to different things.

    1) Scale armor is made of small pieces of armor plates attached to some textile/leather/mail backing.
    2) Lamellar armor is made of small pieces of armor plates laced to each other, thus does not require a backing (but you can still attach one).
    3) Laminar armor is made of joining together long armor bands, laid HORIZONTALLY. Something like Roman Lorica Segmentata can be classified as laminar armor.
    4) Splint armor is made of joining together long armor bands, laid VERTICALLY. Uncommon on body armor, but quite common in early medieval vambraces/greaves.

    Now, from the description, Warden of the Woods sounds exactly like this armor to me:


    Tlingit armor, made from hardwood slats. (The slats are joined by rope, so all-natural)


    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Greywolf View Post
    That's almost certainly azcona, javelin used by Iberian almogavars - they got their own unit in Medieval 2 Total War. This kind of dual-purpose spear/javelin with fletching pops up from time to time in Europe, and Landsknechts did use them for a short period of time before they retired them in favour of pikes.

    They are mostly associated with Moors or naval warfare, but not exclusively so - I think it's because having a ship eliminates a lot of supply problems with javelins.

    As for specifically German name, well, Speerwurf, which translates to "throwing spear", as German doesn't have a specific word to it. Which is pretty interesting, since English and a lot of Slavic languages do, but perhaps we shouldn't read too much into it.
    Was Almogavars particularly associated with death/suffering during Medieval time? I've also seen a lot of the skeletons in the "Danse Macabre" images wielding it.
    Last edited by wolflance; 2017-08-16 at 04:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflance View Post
    Question again: Anyone has any idea what is the proper name for this thing? Oversized plumbata?

    I heard that it was pretty common among landskecht, does it has a German name?

    It's just a vaned javelin or dart, the size depicted is unrealistic but you see them from around 3' to up to 6' long. They were common weapons and do appear in art in Central Europe as well as in places like Ireland. It probably does have a German name but I don't know what it is.

    There are a few threads on MyArmoury about these though where you could probably find out more.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobtor View Post

    I dont think we have any bronze weapons in the period at all (definitely not on the continent: bronze weaponry stopped way before this). Maybe a few buckles for the mail, and as shield bosses for the shields though (at least on the continent, around 20% of shields have copper/bronze bosses in the 2-4th Century, becoming rarerer toward the 7t Century, but almost no evidence in the 5-6th centry compared to both earlier and later.
    In addition to the shield bosses the Romans also had a fair number of bronze (or brass) helmets. I think bronze mace heads were around in Central /Eastern Europe by that time but not sure about England.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflance View Post



    Was Almogavars particularly associated with death/suffering during Medieval time? I've also seen a lot of the skeletons in the "Danse Macabre" images wielding it.
    Cheers on the Tiglit wooden armor, that is an amazing panoply.

    Almogavars were people from the Pyrennes mountains many of whom formed mercenary bands active in the 14th century, who got involved in Byzantium initially against the Turks, but who later devastated and took over large areas of what are today Greece and the Balkans, creating bad memories which still linger. That might be the death connection. Main case is the so called 'Catalan Grand Company' led by Roger de Fleur

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Would Celtic tribes like the Picts or early Irish (basically ones that weren't Romanized) have access to leather lamellar armor, or does it pretty much jump from "basic leathers" or just your clothes straight to chain hauberks (I know hauberk is more evocative of the Middle Ages than post-Antiquity, but I can't think of another term to describe mail that just covers the torso without things like sleeves and leggings that I'm not sure you see until you've got Norman knights running around apart from the RPG term "chain shirt" and I know this thread isn't the place to use RPG terms )?

    I'm trying to figure out armor for a warrior druid, you see, that doesn't have the "I just crudely stitched together the stinky pelts of random animals I hunted so I put the hobo in murderhobo!" look you so often see in fantasy druids, but my only other references are Total War: Rome II and Total War: Atilla, where the Iceni's "Druidic Nobles" just go into battle in regular clothes along with a sword and shield, or the Pictish units use basic leather or even go shirtless, and the Europa Barbarorum mod for the original Rome: Total War, where the Casse Drwdae and the Aedui Carnute Cingetos wear chain armor that Pathfinder druids aren't allowed to wear.
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2017-08-16 at 09:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Would Celtic tribes like the Picts or early Irish (basically ones that weren't Romanized) have access to leather lamellar armor, or does it pretty much jump from "basic leathers" or just your clothes straight to chain hauberks (I know hauberk is more evocative of the Middle Ages than post-Antiquity, but I can't think of another term to describe mail that just covers the torso without things like sleeves and leggings that I'm not sure you see until you've got Norman knights running around apart from the RPG term "chain shirt" and I know this thread isn't the place to use RPG terms )?

    I'm trying to figure out armor for a warrior druid, you see, that doesn't have the "I just crudely stitched together the stinky pelts of random animals I hunted so I put the hobo in murderhobo!" look you so often see in fantasy druids, but my only other references are Total War: Rome II and Total War: Atilla, where the Iceni's "Druidic Nobles" just go into battle in regular clothes along with a sword and shield, or the Pictish units use basic leather or even go shirtless, and the Europa Barbarorum mod for the original Rome: Total War, where the Casse Drwdae and the Aedui Carnute Cingetos wear chain armor that Pathfinder druids aren't allowed to wear.
    I think you are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole with that. There is no historical proscription against wearing metal armor that I ever heard of.

    Whether leather was around or not - especially as armor, is debated. There is a reference in the Icelandic sagas about "Reindeer hide armor" but reindeer hide is very soft and would make terrible armor. It may have meant textile armor with a deerskin hide covering for waterproofing, or it may have meant to be 'magical' somehow, or it may have meant some other kind of animal skin.

    The random hides thing - is not something you see in this part of the world. The dark age or medieval caveman look is probably already very rare by the time of the late copper age (even Otsi the Iceman seems to have been somewhat well put together). By the time you get into the Bronze Age let alone the Iron Age people seem to have had nice clothing which is usually made out of colorful textiles (think plaid) and even when it's made of doeskin or leather looks fairly modern - such as we can see for example in bog and salt mine finds. The same is true, incidentally for clothing used by Native Americans. If you see real buckskin clothing in a museum it's eye opening.

    We do not have either a "medieval caveman" OR a "medieval heavy metal dude" such as we almost always see on TV.




    Actual Iron Age people (use soap, have textile making and tailoring skillz)


    Modern trope of Iron Age people


    I think you have already been given the best possible thing to match your Pathfinder dilemma - the only way you don't have metal armor is if you either A) don't have technology for metal, or B) are too poor to afford metal. In the latter case textile armor is probably most likely in Europe in my opinion. Leather lamellar (or buffalo hide) seems to exist in Central Asia though so it's probably known in Europe too.


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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I'm trying to figure out armor for a warrior druid, you see, that doesn't have the "I just crudely stitched together the stinky pelts of random animals I hunted so I put the hobo in murderhobo!" look you so often see in fantasy druids, but my only other references are Total War: Rome II and Total War: Atilla, where the Iceni's "Druidic Nobles" just go into battle in regular clothes along with a sword and shield, or the Pictish units use basic leather or even go shirtless, and the Europa Barbarorum mod for the original Rome: Total War, where the Casse Drwdae and the Aedui Carnute Cingetos wear chain armor that Pathfinder druids aren't allowed to wear.
    Disclaimer: I'm a developer on Europa Barbarorum II (in the mechanics section): there's an awful lot of fantasy crap in the Celtic section of EB1, largely because of Ranika. He was the "historian" for Britain and to be frank made a lot of stuff up. Anything you see there in Britain, ignore for the most part, it's probably wrong. Look to the units in EBII and you'll find a lot with a solid historical grounding.

    As far as Celts of the period went, they didn't actually wear a lot of armour, especially not things like helmets (despite making some very good quality helms). Nobles and retainers wore mail, everyone else relied on their shield and mobility. Professionals and mercenaries were more likely to have helmets, but body armour was actually relatively rare, even though it was likely the Celts who invented mail.
    Last edited by Kiero; 2017-08-16 at 11:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Just to add on, the "druid" of D&D has little other than the name in common with the historical druid (by that name or others) "social class" of various Celtic peoples.

    AFAIK, there's no historical precedent for the prohibitions against metal armor or types of armor impossed on certain D&D character classes.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    So... I know this one, but I was hoping someone could give me a more precise/detailed answer:

    Let's say two armies of equal skill and training and whatever else are facing each other over a long campaign... But one side has access to iron/steel, while the other uses bronze...

    What exactly are the main advantages of steel in long term conflicts?
    What are the advantages in battle, assuming both sides are well rested and ready for it?
    Homebrew Stuff:

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    Disclaimer: I'm a developer on Europa Barbarorum II (in the mechanics section): there's an awful lot of fantasy crap in EB1, largely because of Ranika. He was the "historian" for Britain and to be frank made a lot of stuff up. Anything you see there in Britain, ignore for the most part, it's probably wrong. Look to the units in EBII and you'll find a lot with a solid historical grounding.

    As far as Celts of the period went, they didn't actually wear a lot of armour, especially not things like helmets. Nobles and retainers wore mail, everyone else relied on their shield and mobility. Professionals and mercenaries were more likely to have helmets, but body armour was actually relatively rare, even though it was likely the Celts who invented mail.
    I see. Thank you for this information, I had no idea!

    Is there a listing of EBII's factions and their units like on EB1's old website? The actual EBII website and forums don't seem to have one.

    And to those mentioning that there is no historical prohibition against metal armor, yes, I'm well aware that's not a real thing, but I have to roll with it as part of Pathfinder's rules, historical precedent or no historical precedent. The only way to get around it would be to make a suit of chain armor out of carved wooden links and cast an ironwood spell on it.
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2017-08-16 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I see. Thank you for this information, I had no idea!

    Is there a listing of EBII's factions and their units like on EB1's? The actual EBII website and forums don't seem to have one.

    And to those mentioning that there is no historical prohibition against metal armor, yes, I'm well aware that's not a real thing, but I have to roll with it as part of Pathfinder's rules, historical precedent or no historical precedent. The only way to get around it would be to make a suit of chain armor out of carved wooden links and cast an ironwood spell on it.
    That's fine of course, it's just this may not be the thread to find your answer. The real world is the real world and the game world is the game world. They don't always meet perfectly needles to say.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    That's fine of course, it's just this may not be the thread to find your answer. The real world is the real world and the game world is the game world. They don't always meet perfectly needles to say.
    I understand and thank you.

    I'm just frustrated in trying to get them as close to meeting perfectly as possible, since the "medieval caveman" depiction of Iron Age people and any other people RPGs label as "barbarian" irritates me perhaps more than any other trope.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I see. Thank you for this information, I had no idea!

    Is there a listing of EBII's factions and their units like on EB1's old website? The actual EBII website and forums don't seem to have one.
    We haven't produced anything like that yet; it's still an active mod in development (with a major release coming soon), documentation is well behind coding. We have been working on the website in the background, but it isn't ready to be deployed yet. Those are the sorts of features that it will have, likely a port from the games text files.

    I'd highly recommend giving the current version (2.2b + the patch to 2.2r) a go if you have M2TW Kingdoms and spare time.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I think you are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole with that. There is no historical proscription against wearing metal armor that I ever heard of.

    Whether leather was around or not - especially as armor, is debated. There is a reference in the Icelandic sagas about "Reindeer hide armor" but reindeer hide is very soft and would make terrible armor. It may have meant textile armor with a deerskin hide covering for waterproofing, or it may have meant to be 'magical' somehow, or it may have meant some other kind of animal skin.
    Geoffrey of Monmouth in Historia Regnum Britanniae (ce. 1135) describes Arthur as being armed in "a leather jerkin (lorica) worthy of so great a king" along with a golden helmet with a dragon crest and a round shield with an image of the Virgin Mary. Unusual as (unlike most early authors) he does not describe Arthur as wearing contemporary arms and armor, which lends at least some credence to Geoffrey's claims to be working from earlier source material.

    DrewID

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    It's very old. The first description of a sceptre in western literature is in the Ilias. The kings hold it in turns while speaking, and Odysseus uses it as a club to beat up an insolent soldier of low birth. In a flashback he also receives it when sent as an ambassador to Troy, and he moves it to create expectation in the listeners.

    Roman centurions bore a 1 m long vine staff. It was a symbol of their status and a way to punish soldiers.

    The thing I find most interesting are the imperial ensigns of Massentius, which were excavated in 2005. https://biatec.wordpress.com/2015/07...-di-massenzio/ All of the sceptres have globes on them. They look a lot like maces to me.

    However, in the times of Augustus, the symbol of imperium was a spear.
    Actually, even in the time of Augustus, the symbol of imperium was an axe wrapped in a bundle of rods, the fasces. Representing the ability to administer capital punishment (the axe) and corporal punishment (the rods). Lictors of magistrates with imperium would each carry one.
    Last edited by Kiero; 2017-08-16 at 12:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Asking again about plumbata--I think my earlier comment was overlooked. Anyone know why the Romans switched?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by DrewID View Post
    Geoffrey of Monmouth in Historia Regnum Britanniae (ce. 1135) describes Arthur as being armed in "a leather jerkin (lorica) worthy of so great a king" along with a golden helmet with a dragon crest and a round shield with an image of the Virgin Mary. Unusual as (unlike most early authors) he does not describe Arthur as wearing contemporary arms and armor, which lends at least some credence to Geoffrey's claims to be working from earlier source material.

    DrewID
    Considering I'm drawing a lot of inspiration from Arthur for my character, this is quite helpful. It looks like I'll want to use regular leather armor for his gear, then. Thank you!
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2017-08-16 at 01:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Greywolf View Post
    Not just Flanders, there were places that had elite heavy infantry - in Hungary, cities provided that after Belo IV. post-mongol reforms, for example - but not only was that not the norm, this heavy infantry was dismounted knights a lot of the time, most prominently in cases of England and monastic orders. You could therefore argue that heavy cavalry can be used to beat itself if it dismounts, but then we start going in circles.
    .
    Heavy infantry defeating heavy cavalry in the middle ages was rare in the 13th century, common in the 14th and routine (if not automatic by any means) in the 15th Century.

    The most obvious examples were the Swiss and the Czechs since they revolutionized warfare in the Late Medieval period, but there are dozens of cases of heavy infantry, specifically not stiffened by dismounted knights in the English manner (I consider that a different kind of thing), defeating both heavy and light cavalry in the field, going all the way back to Charles Martel and before.

    Swiss infantry of course defeated the Hapsburgs / HRE armies on multiple occasions, won (and occasionally lost) many battles in Italy and France as mercenaries, and defeated Charles the Bold of Burgundy 3 times. The Czech Hussites infantry defeated the flower of Latin European nobility almost too many times to count.

    Most of the ~100 or so German Royal towns which became Free Cities had to fight and win at least one battle against a regional prince (Duke or Count) or prince-prelate (Abbot, Bishop or Archbishop).

    Well-disciplined infantry, including both militia and mercenaries, in Sweden, Livonia, Prussia, Silesia, Lusatia, Italy, and Austria, and Hungary as well (notably in the part which is now Slovakia) defeated heavy cavalry in the field. In most cases so far as I'm aware this was done without a lot of knights present. Cossack infantry were the terror of the Mongols and the Ottomans by the 16th Century.

    Read Hans Delbruck on this or for a more succinct and abridged version, pick up a couple of the Osprey Military Books: "German Medieval Armies" or "The Swiss At War" or "The Hussite Wars" or "Teutonic Knight"

    Mounted knights (and their equivalent) remained effective but by the 15th Century it would be very unusual to deploy them without competent infantry support.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Asking again about plumbata--I think my earlier comment was overlooked. Anyone know why the Romans switched?
    Could you repost your question I couldn't find it.

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