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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsides

    I've been thinking about The Deck of Many Things recently and just arrived at the conclusion that you can actually gain literally all but a few of it's benefits while suffering absolutely none of the negative effects by simply asking a series of creatures under your control such as a Familiar ( Which you can create and again and again and by the way can't even be imprisoned since you'll just cast the spell again, removing the last familiar and making an new one ), Planar Bound creatures, a bunch of successively summoned or dominated beings, whatever mental slaves you have access to for any reason, one at the time to draw one card from the deck for you. And before you wonder about it, since none of those cards restore mental control or give agency to creatures where it hasn't been already, they obey your commands as always.

    Balance - Who cares? Your controlled creature is now a different alignment.

    Comet - Yep, you lose a level, but nothing you couldn't do naturally.

    Donjon, Euryale, Flames, Fool, Idiot, Rogue, Ruin, Skull, Talons, The Void - Sorry, Minion.

    The Fates - "Hey, in case you get that one, I will tell you what to ask for."

    Gem - "Gimme"

    Jester - We lost 10,000exp. Oh well.

    Key - Well, in case the creature isn't proficient with what we're proficient with, we still gain the item either way. Worst case scenario hand it to a party member, unless you just specifically control creatures who use weapons that you want.

    Knight - The servant of my servant is..... you guessed it.

    Moon - That's mine too.

    Star - This would probably the only actual potential significant benefit we lose by using this method.

    Sun - While we don't get the 50,000 experience, we do get the wondrous item.

    Throne - The castle of my servant is.... you guessed it. Officially sign my inheritance right here, will you?

    Vizier - I tell it what to ask.


    The only real non-issue here is possibly the longevity of The Fates and Moon in case you want to reserve them, which is very easily circumvented with a familiar that, in the event of getting it, gets retracted into his pocket plane and brought out when needed, or long-term planar bound creatures, or an undead you can just re-assert control over every 24 hours, and just literally stuff it in a bag of holding or something and bring out when needed, since it's not a breathing creature. It would also be extremely easy to do this with even any other creature using various Control Extension and containment methods, but there's no need to cover the "advanced" material here, since we already have a bunch of perfectly good options.
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-08-09 at 09:33 PM.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    You're not losing XP or gaining it (or losing or gaining anything).

    The familiar does. He gets the benefits (or penalties) of the draw.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    You're not losing XP or gaining it (or losing or gaining anything).

    The familiar does. He gets the benefits (or penalties) of the draw.
    I know. You don't "lose" any exp from the cards I named regardless. When I say "lose" in that context, I mean we lose the potential gift of 10k/50k exp, that's what I mean.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    I know. You don't "lose" any exp from the cards I named regardless. When I say "lose" in that context, I mean we lose the potential gift of 10k/50k exp, that's what I mean.
    Your DM could simply rule that as you are magically bound to your familiar, the effects target both of you.

    That's what I would do.

    Plus probably a secondary nasty story effect (some results of draws might free your Familiar from your service resulting in a NPC villian, loss of access to the spell etc until you can find a way to fix it - likely by completing a quest).

    I find these threads weird. Its like people play in games without a DM or something. I know it's theory craft, but hey.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Your DM could simply rule that as you are magically bound to your familiar, the effects target both of you.

    That's what I would do.

    Plus probably a secondary nasty story effect (some results of draws might free your Familiar from your service resulting in a NPC villian, loss of access to the spell etc until you can find a way to fix it - likely by completing a quest).

    I find these threads weird. Its like people play in games without a DM or something. I know it's theory craft, but hey.
    If he though so I'd likely use an undead minion or Planar Bound creature or some other acquired thrall instead, but yes, a DM can do anything with house rules. Threads like this are indeed RAW theory-crating, since nobody can come up with any trick or strategies that pertain to predicting a DM's rulings.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    If he though so I'd likely use an undead minion or Planar Bound creature or some other acquired thrall instead, but yes, a DM can do anything with house rules.
    They're not 'house rules'. They're DMing. There is no rule being applied. Just a ruling.

    And rulings are not 'House rules'. Just a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.

    And I sure I could twist **** up so that using a minion or the equivalent had a consequence for your character.

    Threads like this are indeed RAW theory-crating, since nobody can come up with any trick or strategies that pertain to predicting a DM's rulings.
    Exactly.

    And theory crafting is cool and all, but why bother? Its just theory that has no sensible application to any actual game situation.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    They're not 'house rules'. They're DMing. There is no rule being applied. Just a ruling.

    And rulings are not 'House rules'. Just a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.

    And I sure I could twist **** up so that using a minion or the equivalent had a consequence for your character.



    Exactly.

    And theory crafting is cool and all, but why bother? Its just theory that has no sensible application to any actual game situation.
    You gave an example of a ruling that adds upon or alters the function of a magical artifact on the DM's own accord due to a RAW player action. You do realize that half of the threads discussing magical tricks, strategies, actions, spell combinations, magic item uses and so forth would be completely obsolete when it comes to the DM arbitrarily making a decision which adds to game mechanics in order to "balance" it, right? You should be asking like a hundred guys on this forum the same question.

    I would not say it "has no sensible application". A DM could just as well decide to let it be done regularly, exactly as you would expect ( minion uses deck, gets effects of deck, nothing else of any special import happens ) and move on, either not minding the supposed "balance infraction" or allowing the player to be rewarded for exercising his brain. Some DM's do it that way.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    You gave an example of a ruling that adds upon or alters the function of a magical artifact on the DM's own accord due to a RAW player action.
    No, I didnt. The rules are a framework upon which sits DM rulings. Like the Common Law, where Legislation forms the skeleton, and the law evolves and is interpreted and addded to by Judges and precedent.

    Rulings are just that. Rulings. They can differ from 'RAW' all they want. A PC who is trying to lob a fireball through an arrow slit while an Orc is swinging an Axe at him isnt required to make a spell attack roll by 'RAW'. But I would certainly require one.

    I'm sure I can find equally silly crap if I look hard enough. In 3E you can be restored from negative HP back up to 0 HP by drowning (drowning set your HP to 0 if you failed a Fort save to hold your breath). You can purhchase a 10' ladder, knock out the pegs, and sell the two struts as 10' poles for a profit. A Barbarian can rage, clutch a dagger between his teeth and dive naked into lava for a swim for a several seconds, emerging unscathed, and so forth.

    All funny to theory craft, but useless in a game featuring a DM.

    You do realize that half of the threads discussing magical tricks, strategies, actions, spell combinations, magic item uses and so forth would be completely obsolete when it comes to the DM arbitrarily making a decision which adds to game mechanics in order to "balance" it, right?
    Exactly. I mean theory craft is intresting and all if you really want to spend your life on the internet discussing twisting the rules of a roleplaying games theory, as if the roleplaying games ruleset reflected some kind of objective 'thing' seperate from the context of the DM and the social contract that underpins all RPG groups.

    I personally suggest backpacking around the world for a few years as a much more entertaining endeavor, but whatever floats your boat. Im not here to judge. I spend a lot of time discussing the rules here myself.

    I would not say it "has no sensible application". A DM could just as well decide to let it be done regularly, exactly as you would expect ( minion uses deck, gets effects of deck, nothing else of any special import happens ) and move on, either not minding the supposed "balance infraction" or allowing the player to be rewarded for exercising his brain. Some DM's do it that way
    Good on them. They probably also allow **** like infinie wishes via simulacrum loops and Pun Pun, and (barring some pretty cool cats and a pretty awesome DM) the game breaks down irretrievably.

    Im pretty sure G.E.G. (may he rest in peace) would have twisted your actions in some way to ensure that you not only copped the results of the cards, but also a secondary (intresting) curse or side effect for your hubris that would have sent you on a thrilling quest to undo the mishcief your tampering with an artifact caused.

    Maybe thats just me.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    No, I didnt. The rules are a framework upon which sits DM rulings. Like the Common Law, where Legislation forms the skeleton, and the law evolves and is interpreted and addded to by Judges and precedent.

    Rulings are just that. Rulings. They can differ from 'RAW' all they want. A PC who is trying to lob a fireball through an arrow slit while an Orc is swinging an Axe at him isnt required to make a spell attack roll by 'RAW'. But I would certainly require one.

    I'm sure I can find equally silly crap if I look hard enough. In 3E you can be restored from negative HP back up to 0 HP by drowning (drowning set your HP to 0 if you failed a Fort save to hold your breath). You can purhchase a 10' ladder, knock out the pegs, and sell the two struts as 10' poles for a profit. A Barbarian can rage, clutch a dagger between his teeth and dive naked into lava for a swim for a several seconds, emerging unscathed, and so forth.

    All funny to theory craft, but useless in a game featuring a DM.



    Exactly. I mean theory craft is intresting and all if you really want to spend your life on the internet discussing twisting the rules of a roleplaying games theory, as if the roleplaying games ruleset reflected some kind of objective 'thing' seperate from the context of the DM and the social contract that underpins all RPG groups.

    I personally suggest backpacking around the world for a few years as a much more entertaining endeavor, but whatever floats your boat. Im not here to judge. I spend a lot of time discussing the rules here myself.



    Good on them. They probably also allow **** like infinie wishes via simulacrum loops and Pun Pun, and (barring some pretty cool cats and a pretty awesome DM) the game breaks down irretrievably.

    Im pretty sure G.E.G. (may he rest in peace) would have twisted your actions in some way to ensure that you not only copped the results of the cards, but also a secondary (intresting) curse or side effect for your hubris that would have sent you on a thrilling quest to undo the mishcief your tampering with an artifact caused.

    Maybe thats just me.
    You started the sentence with "I didn't" then went on to explain how you did. "an example of a ruling that adds upon or alters the function of a magical artifact on the DM's own accord due to a RAW player action." - That is exactly what's the DM ruling in question is, yes. The rules can be a framework, yes, they can differ from RAW all they want, that's true. That's no different than how I phrased it, I only emphasized that this forum sees a lot of theoretical discussion, which is irrelevant when it comes to DM varied rulings, but people still do it since they just assume RAW is the baseline and ignore the fact that a DM can do whatever he wants in any campaign depending on the DM's choices, what he wants out of the game, or whatever else, since otherwise you can't share anything in terms of game mechanics and tactics since "DM says Booyakah and everything changes".

    Regardless your follow-up comparison is wrong for this particular instance. This is not even, not RAW, but reasonably, an absurd scenario. Creature uses the deck, the deck is supposed to affect the creature actually using it, clever Wizard uses a minion as a guinea pig. This is even a real-world strategy. In this case it's actually the DM who makes "innovative" choices by creating some kind of in-game link between the caster and his slave which makes the deck know to target the caster. Which lore-wise, makes for a conceivable ruling, I have no problem with rulings. But the original scenario is not absurd or anything else.

    Infinite Wishes via Simulacrum are actually the least broken, True Polymorph per RAW can create a galaxy-sized object and destroy a world or a mountain of gold or any magical artifact. But those popular uses are a bit less creative. And actually Pun-Pun doesn't work, it relies on Pazuzu doing stuff for you instead of just killing you or doing pretty much anything else right at the onset, for no reason.
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-08-10 at 04:17 AM.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    To me the deck of many things is clearly intended to work only with PCs or NPCs with class levels since it manipulates XP, hence I wouldn't allow it to work for other creatures. Plus, the wording is lacking the magical words:"the creature that draws this card" or "a creature that draws from this deck" or "a card drawn by a creature" which is a popular wording to determinate who can activate something.
    But having someone else under your control drawing from the deck sure will prevent bad things from happening to you.
    English isn't my first language, so I will likely express myself poorly.
    Please assume that I'm arguing in good faith, and that I mean no offense to anybody.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    To me the deck of many things is clearly intended to work only with PCs or NPCs with class levels since it manipulates XP, hence I wouldn't allow it to work for other creatures. Plus, the wording is lacking the magical words:"the creature that draws this card" or "a creature that draws from this deck" or "a card drawn by a creature" which is a popular wording to determinate who can activate something.
    But having someone else under your control drawing from the deck sure will prevent bad things from happening to you.
    Well, I'm sure it wasn't intended, I am after all bypassing almost all of it's negative effects. By the way, you could easily control a creature with class levels. A bunch with the "Spellcasting" ( Not Innate ) class feature are low-level and common that it would hardly be a problem for any Wizard. But if you want to approach the subject of the "magical words", then there are actually a bunch of spells, magical items, poisons, potions, and even mundane items which all describe their workings with a "you" either in part, or completely. Which, if you were being consistent, would cause a lot of RAW and RAI contradictions both in your campaign if you were to determine that the creature manipulating a spell/item does not count as a "you" by wording.

    But you could always, of course, as the poster above said, make a ruling against it for RAI or create a different ruling if the action is deemed too powerful for the campaign.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Don't bother.

    This dude lives to post incredibly wobbly schemes as absolute truth, then agues with dishonest, disingenuous logic for pages and pages and pages.

    Do yourself a favor and walk away.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    This is a DM question, simple as that. As is often the case, the item doesn't specify what happens when a non-player pulls a card. In that case, a DM is free to rule whatever he likes.

    As far as rule vs houserule, I'll make a thread about this.
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    They're not 'house rules'. They're DMing. There is no rule being applied. Just a ruling. And rulings are not 'House rules'. Just a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Besides you getting E Gary Gygax initials wrong ( :) ) your input to this thread is mostly how I see it. I'm sigging the above. (IIRC, his birth certificate has his first name as Ernest, which he passed on to his son Ernie).
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-08-10 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubba View Post
    Don't bother.

    This dude lives to post incredibly wobbly schemes as absolute truth, then agues with dishonest, disingenuous logic for pages and pages and pages.

    Do yourself a favor and walk away.
    So other than insulting me like the incapable 13-year old you are, you have absolutely nothing else to say? Incredibly wobbly scheme... of giving a magical item to be used by another creature. And "dishonest, disingenuous logic" of....what exactly? Do you even know what I was talking about with the first poster? We weren't "arguing" about any kind of scheme. He said a DM will make a ruling to balance such an action, I replied that he's right, but DM rulings can't be predicted, yet threads discussing methods like these via RAW have always been a staple of this forum regardless of DM rulings.

    Looking though your post history though, I can tell that you live to make ad hominem attacks against people instead of addressing any actual posts.
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-08-10 at 04:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Let's be calm, guys. We're just debating stuff on the Internet here.

    It's certainly true that you can't predict DM behavior without knowing the DM in question. It does us no good to predict how someone's DM will rule something. That's probably why official rulings are so popular online, because at least they're something.

    As far as whether rulings that contradict official rules are still valid, or whether we should consider them house rules and not rulings, I made a separate thread for that. It doesn't really pertain to deck of many things.
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Most DM's hate creative thinking and punish it horrifically. There is no logical reason why handing a deck of many things to a follower or some other subordinate creature, or even a dominated creature, wouldn't work and remove the downsides. Trouble is, DM's like downsides because they like punishing players. That's just a flaw with people at their core.

    Ultimately if you think of a way to do something just try it, if your DM ignores all logic and reason and bends reality to conform to his ideas of what is fair or how he thinks things should work instead of how they actually do, just find another DM.

    DM-Player relationships are like marriage, you need a good, compatible fit for both of you to really enjoy yourselves. If you get a free spirited, creative individual with an oppressive DM, you're both gonna have a bad time. Most DMs are oppressive, they want players to be very mundane and vanilla and play D&D like a video game instead of a world they're living in. If you ever try to use logic or reasoning or intelligence to "get around" things, a lot of them will make it not work despite the fact that it should.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    I would love this. All a minion has to do is wish to be the master.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubba View Post
    Don't bother.

    This dude lives to post incredibly wobbly schemes as absolute truth, then agues with dishonest, disingenuous logic for pages and pages and pages.

    Do yourself a favor and walk away.
    Which one?

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    I've been thinking about The Deck of Many Things recently and just arrived at the conclusion that you can actually gain literally all but a few of it's benefits while suffering absolutely none of the negative effects by simply asking a series of creatures under your control such as a Familiar ( Which you can create and again and again and by the way can't even be imprisoned since you'll just cast the spell again, removing the last familiar and making an new one ), Planar Bound creatures, a bunch of successively summoned or dominated beings, whatever mental slaves you have access to for any reason, one at the time to draw one card from the deck for you. And before you wonder about it, since none of those cards restore mental control or give agency to creatures where it hasn't been already, they obey your commands as always.

    Balance - Who cares? Your controlled creature is now a different alignment.

    Comet - Yep, you lose a level, but nothing you couldn't do naturally.

    Donjon, Euryale, Flames, Fool, Idiot, Rogue, Ruin, Skull, Talons, The Void - Sorry, Minion.

    The Fates - "Hey, in case you get that one, I will tell you what to ask for."

    Gem - "Gimme"

    Jester - We lost 10,000exp. Oh well.

    Key - Well, in case the creature isn't proficient with what we're proficient with, we still gain the item either way. Worst case scenario hand it to a party member, unless you just specifically control creatures who use weapons that you want.

    Knight - The servant of my servant is..... you guessed it.

    Moon - That's mine too.

    Star - This would probably the only actual potential significant benefit we lose by using this method.

    Sun - While we don't get the 50,000 experience, we do get the wondrous item.

    Throne - The castle of my servant is.... you guessed it. Officially sign my inheritance right here, will you?

    Vizier - I tell it what to ask.
    No DM worth his salt would allow any of this.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I would love this. All a minion has to do is wish to be the master.
    Well, as I've explained in the beginning, that wouldn't be possible since the minion is still mentally dominated by the player, and no card from the deck has removed that condition. If the player told it not to use his wishes, it can't do so. He is basically a puppet of the player.
    Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-08-10 at 06:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Well, as I've explained in the beginning, that wouldn't be possible since the minion is still mentally dominated by the player, and no card from the deck has removed that condition. If the player told it not to use his wishes, it can't do so. He is basically a puppet of the player.
    IMO this all works out logically. Any character that did this would, however, be a horrible person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Well, as I've explained in the beginning, that wouldn't be possible since the minion is still mentally dominated by the player, and no card from the deck has removed that condition. If the player told it not to use his wishes, it can't do so. He is basically a puppet of the player.
    No, it obeys your commands, but can operate independently, as per the wording if the spell. Specifically, the wording says, "Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands." That means it is capable of acting on its own accord, s if it does not feel loyalty toward you, but rather obeys you begrudgingly (imps and quasits, I'm looking at you), then you had better be exact with your wording, or else that familiar will have a Wish, and that's not great for the master.

    And to those of you who say, "Well I'll just make my wording perfectly exact," I just have to say good luck to you.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-08-10 at 06:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    No, it obeys your commands, but can operate independently, as per the wording if the spell. Specifically, the wording says, "Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands." That means it is capable of acting on its own accord, s if it does not feel loyalty toward you, but rather obeys you begrudgingly (imps and quasits, I'm looking at you), then you had better be exact with your wording, or else that familiar will have a Wish, and that's not great for the master.

    And to those of you who say, "Well I'll just make my wording perfectly exact," I just have to say good luck to you.
    "Do only what I tell you to do, and don't do anything I didn't tell you to do, until I say otherwise."

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    I like the "hobo" in there.
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    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by FreddyNoNose View Post
    Which one?
    Killing me.
    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    "Do only what I tell you to do, and don't do anything I didn't tell you to do, until I say otherwise."

    It's really not hard. We're not talking a complex mission here.
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    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-08-10 at 06:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    No, it obeys your commands, but can operate independently, as per the wording if the spell. Specifically, the wording says, "Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands." That means it is capable of acting on its own accord, s if it does not feel loyalty toward you, but rather obeys you begrudgingly (imps and quasits, I'm looking at you), then you had better be exact with your wording, or else that familiar will have a Wish, and that's not great for the master.

    And to those of you who say, "Well I'll just make my wording perfectly exact," I just have to say good luck to you.
    First of all, you do realize the familiar is not my sole option, right? I named several in the OP. Secondly, a few instructions given under the Zone of Truth with Detect Thoughts would enable me to guarantee your "phrasing" with very little hassle.

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    cool Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Something similar happened in Hellraiser II. It... uh... it sorta worked?

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    This is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect the enchantress of the party to do. Why do anything when you can get a dominated thrall to do it for you?
    Mind you, this is the same party member who forces all subjects she controls to legally rename themselves to Igor.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2017-08-10 at 08:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    First of all, you do realize the familiar is not my sole option, right?
    Yes, I do. But it's probably your strongest. Binding a fiend will immediately go badly, and elementals are less than likely to be helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renduaz View Post
    Secondly, a few instructions given under the Zone of Truth with Detect Thoughts would enable me to guarantee your "phrasing" with very little hassle.
    Not really. And I don't see how Zone of Truth offers more insight than Detect Thoughts in this scenario, which is very little. You didn't think it through all that much, which tells me that you tend not to think things through past the potential for you to benefit, which tells me you'll slip up early and often.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-08-10 at 09:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid

    I guess this would work? I mean, you're obviously a horrible person if you do it (you're either risking the life of someone who trusts you, or risking the life of someone you've Dominated with magic, and either way you're awful) but I don't see why this wouldn't work, usually.

    That being said, it does rely on acquiring a Deck of Many Things, which is not easy to do.
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