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2017-08-10, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Where did you bring up "Bind a fiend" from? To begin with, if I don't intend to reserve The Fates or wishes, I can virtually use almost any creature under spells with which it can't even "act independently" in your mind. Dominate Person/Monster and so on. Secondly, Long-Term Planar Binding can be done on any Fiend, Celestial, Elemental or Fey. Third, if I intend to reserve those things, I can pretty much just use an Undead which is utterly subservient and puppeteered, which destroys any last shred of your objections. Fourth, Zone of Truth is good because it's objective and lets you know if you failed, while Detect Thoughts is more vague whether with "surface thoughts" or what "prying deeper" means, both of which can be decided by the DM himself to his will. With both combined, giving an instruction to a familiar, and verifying he will follow it "as if my will was his will" since it can't lie, bypasses your complaints about "phrasing" which are irrelevant in the first place.
It seems like you're the only one in the thread who isn't thinking through his own contrarian arguments.Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-08-10 at 10:49 PM.
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2017-08-11, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Hmm, what happens if the thing you're controlling suddenly gains a few levels and doesn't fall under your control anymore? Familiars are CR limited, and the strength of undead controlled is based on spell slot used.
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2017-08-11, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Well a familiar is not CR limited per se, you just can only choose from a range of beasts with a certain CR. However nothing says the familiar is no longer controlled by you if it gains levels. By RAW it's controlled unless indicated otherwise, and there is no rule to indicate otherwise when it comes to gaining levels, so it would have to be a DM ruling. The same goes for Undead. There is a CR limit because of what you can create, but nothing changes in case it gains any ( although class levels aren't even the same as CR so that'd be a gray area ). It's still the same undead creature, it's still a ghoul/wight/zombie/else, you'd still be able to re-assert control over it. But even if the DM made a different ruling, there's a very simple solution - Just get rid of the undead that gained levels and move on to another one to draw the next card for you, which we're already doing in the first place.
Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-08-11 at 12:15 AM.
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2017-08-11, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Unless you're chainlock, familiars lack language and intelligence to "declare" anything. Besides, I would rule out that declaring drawing cards from the deck is valid only of your free will, not if you're magically coerced.
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2017-08-11, 05:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Debateable on "Declare" and an eagle has has much intelligence as Goliath with really low intelligence, but animals can actually recognize the "number 1" very well. While they don't have language per se, "Speak with Animals" is a thing, and they do have a means of verbal communication. At any rate, if it bothers you, you don't have to use a familiar.
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2017-08-11, 06:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
If I was DM and you're compelling a sentient being against their wishes and something bad happens to them then get ready for alignment checks.
Last edited by The_Hansard; 2017-08-11 at 06:04 AM.
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2017-08-11, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Perfidious Albion
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
I actually did this with my familiar after Augury* told me drawing a card myself was a bad idea. (DM didn't rule it as evil as the familiar wasn't a sentient being, and I was TN anyway). He drew the Skull and the Moon. I slaughtered the wraith, slaughtered my own wraith (seriously, it's a total wimp. It has half your hp and an average dpr of 11.) And now my familiar had three wishes.
It later ended up permanently polymorphing me into an ancient silver dragon (complete with total personality overwrite and NPCdom) when the final battle started going sideways.
*To my DM's great surprise. I swear, no one ever thinks of using divinations on the Deck for some reason. It's not as if it interferes with them in any way.
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2017-08-11, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Planar Binding. You literally bring it up in the OP. And in the same post you ask this question in.
Right, but if you want to use people, and they receive non-transferable benefits, you're in for an eventual bad time when your spell wears off.
Any fiend, fey, or celestial you can find that is capable of using the Deck is also capable of subverting your will with the power it receives. Elementals are less capable of doing so, but still likely unhappy with their situation and willing to rebel in small ways.
I don't think a mindless undead is capable of declaring its intent to draw a card. That's an objection this situation doesn't shred.
Not really. Zone of Truth specifically calls out several ways to subvert it, and Detect Thoughts provides marginal benefits beyond that. Tell the familiar/bound planar creature that it has to promise not to subvert your will, and it will say something to that effect that leaves wiggle room. At most, if Zone of Truth is in effect and you tell it to swear it does not plan to subvert your will, it will be unable to do so, being compelled both to lie and speak truly.
And saying phrasing doesn't matter when you're ordering around a creature compelled to obey your orders despite resenting you is downright silly.
I'm not saying you'll never reap any benefits from this. I'm saying you'll definitely get screwed over by it eventually.
Ooh. An old fashioned, "Nuh-uh, you are!" That's some fourth grade fire you're slinging there.Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-08-11 at 06:53 AM.
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2017-08-11, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
I handed a group of players a Deck of Many Things one time.
They paid homeless people to draw cards for them, after signing a contract that said anything bad they pulled was on them, but anything beneficial was to be handed over to the players if possible. They paid them a small sum for this, either way.
They literally had a wagon full of comatose bodies by the time someone pulled the Death card, and then it all fell to pieces.
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2017-08-11, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
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2017-08-11, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2017-08-11, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
No reasonable person would rule it that way.
Dominate works exactly the way you would think it would work. To steal a phrase from Crawford, it's written in "plain English." The target is under the player's control. Real people are capable of working through contradictory instructions. Dominate doesn't take that away from them because it doesn't say that it does.Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-08-11 at 10:17 AM.
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2017-08-11, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-08-11, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
If you say "don't do anything I didn't tell you to do", the plain English meaning is that the person doesn't do anything that they weren't told to do, and it includes listening.
Of course, Dominate Person has ways to bypass that, but Planar Binding specifically states "The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives."
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2017-08-11, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
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2017-08-11, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
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2017-08-11, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
That's what I'm saying to you. Your interpretation of valid English isn't an interpretation of valid English. If you were to scour the world, you would never find a single person who, acting in good faith, was unable to resolve verbal ambiguity. As proven by the sentence "this sentence is false", people don't BSOD just because they're told something confusing or contradictory.
And I'm done replying to you. Not only is this off topic, but I'm convinced you're being deliberately uncooperative.Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
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2017-08-11, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
His point is that interplanar entities who do not wish to serve the caster will intentionally refuse to resolve ambiguous phrases in their intended meaning because the book specifically says they won't. Yes, an average speaker of English will understand the intent, but the bound creature won't care about the intention.
Example: in the book Summer Knight, the protagonist enters into a contract with the fairy queen Mab, ruler of the Winter Court and Queen of Air and Darkness. He knows Mab is absolutely bound to follow the letter of her word no matter what happens, so he only agrees to perform a set number of tasks for her if she swears not to hurt him or his friends if he refuses to do a specific task. She agrees, then stabs him in the hand. She tells him it was not in retaliation, as per their agreement, but simply out of spite. Obviously, his intent was to keep her from harming him or his friends. Obviously, she did not care.Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2017-08-11 at 02:29 PM.
5e Bard's Guide
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2017-08-11, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
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2017-08-11, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2017-08-11, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Alignment used to matter. A paladin could lose his features if he did bad things. It isn't enforced by the rules anymore.
Some DMs still try to enforce it, threatening to do things like take control of characters away from players if the player characters commit evil acts. It's kind of like playing Undertale.Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.
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2017-08-11, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2017-08-11, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
I'm sorry, what?
I'm talking about beings who deliberately want to find loopholes in your wording to **** the caster over and you go "people have no problem with verbal ambiguity in general"? And then you accuse me of being the one who's deliberately uncooperative?
I would call that ironic.
First of all, I was not exclusively speaking about Dominate, because it is only one of several methods of control that were mentioned in the OP.
Second, I freaking admitted that this kind of loophole would not work with Dominate:
A Dominated person could misinterpret the instructions, maybe, but due to the way the spell work the one who casted Dominate would immediately correct it into the desired interpretation via telepathy.
I admit I was not clear, but it's no reason to be rude.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2017-08-11 at 05:08 PM.
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2017-08-11, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
1.I brought up Planar Binding, I did not bring up "Fiends".
2.I have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to my "spell wear off". I'm telling you that if I intend to use The Fates or Wishes immediately, then Dominate Person and Dominate Monster last an hour, during which I can already expend those benefits.
3. I'm not going to spend an hour discussing phrasing with you, but there are plenty of instructions which leave pretty much no "wiggle room" if someone has a basic degree of cleverness. ( I discussed some here ). "Don't speak or wish for anything without my explicit permission" followed by "If you obtain the ability to Wish from the deck of many things, you may only use that ability to wish for what I will describe when I tell you to do so, in the exact manner I describe, as if you wanted my wish to succeed as much as I do". Does that satisfy this phrasing obsession? Like I said, this can go on for an hour, I'm not going to list down all the possible things I could do.
4. That mindless undead can be a Wight or Ghast with an INT of 10/11 which is actually average to above. Claiming it can't "Declare" ( to make known or state clearly, especially in explicit or formal terms ) something which I even ordered it myself to by literally just moving it's mouth is the most stupid thing I've heard all day.
5. Being unable to to do so will inform me it requires further pressuring, although that's likely obsolete given I can accomplish the same with Dominate Person/Monster, Undead, Conjure Elemental or a familiar.
6. Phrasing matters in Planar Binding, but as the other poster said, it is hardly the obstacle you make it out to be for this specific action.
7. It's an old-fashioned truth, you are not thinking about your contrarian answer before accusing me of not tending to think things through.Last edited by Renduaz; 2017-08-11 at 06:01 PM.
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2017-08-11, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
It's entirely possible that gained items might resist being given away similarly to a Talisman of Zagy. It's even more plausible that the 4th level fighter might not agree to be transferred
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2017-08-11, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Once again, Renduaz demonstrates a mildly diabolical example of why the game requires a DM to adjudicate such things to ensure this sort of thing isn't rewarded at the table.
Keep scheming you crazy dreamer!
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2017-08-16, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Originally Posted by Renduaz
1) "you must declare how many cards you intend to draw" - Standard familiars can't speak.
2) "and then draw them" - Standard (and even most special) familiars don't have opposable thumbs. They can't draw cards from a deck.
Now, a Warlock could get past this using an Imp or Quasit formed familiar.
However, there are still two obvious problems even in this case: 1) You're depending on the DM to provide a DoMT. 2) The DM is the one who decides what cards got drawn.
So, if you try to game the system by sacrificing familiar after familiar, you're probably going to just have a DM who deliberately selects negative outcomes to punish your hubris. Even worse, there's nothing to indicate that the most dangerous effects (DonJon or Skull for example), don't prevent the familiar from being resummoned, permanently in the latter case.
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2017-08-16, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
I would rule that creatures that are totally under your control are treated as an extension of you, so the cards affect you. After all, if you use your hand to draw a card, the card doesn't affect the hand instead of you. This covers dominated and charmed creatures as well as effectively-slave creatures like familiars and summons.
A minion, on the other hand, always has the choice to say "no", so the cards affect them.
"Yes, I know I swore an oath to give you the castle if I got that card but you know what, I'm choosing to break that oath. If you have a problem with that, come see me in my new castle!"
The Deck of Many Things is generally held to be the invention of a trickster god. Such a god isn't going to let you use shenanigans to get around the item.
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2017-08-16, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Player advice:
"If you think it's a curse don't even touch it with a ten-foot pole."
And that includes other tools like controlled creatures. The texts of the deck has changed a bit over time and editions and there seem to be many different versions (different deck sizes and images). While i am not sure what the current canon on the coast is, the old texts apply the effect to the person "in possession" of the deck and "choosing to draw". If your argument relies on you making the choices and taking good rewards (taking possession of the magical effect), I would not bet on getting away from the bad draws.
But it depends on the style of game: if genre savviness and using player knowledge to metagame is rewarded i would totally go for such a plan. If my DM reacts badly to such things, i would not.
DM advice:
Throw away the "draw -> effect -> draw" mechanic. Have a look at this example from the tarot deck in dragon magazin 77 for inspirationHermit (upright): Within nine days of returning home from this adventure or expedition, drawer will meet a visiting cleric of his own faith, of a level higher than his own, who will offer religious instruction to the drawer, "for the improvement of the mind," with a warning that the instruction will not be quick. After one month of study (if the drawer accepts the offer; this should be a decision of the player), the drawer will emerge with a 2-point increase in wisdom, but a 1-point loss in charisma. The cleric will then give the drawer a hint to the location of a magic item, and depart for places unknown.
The players draw, look at the beautiful images of the cards and then slowly realize they have no idea what they mean. There is no explanation, no manual, no old gypsy lady, but the deep knowledge that somehow they have just decided their own fate and it might not be spoilered on the internet. Keeping the cards in play creates tension and mystery. What does it mean? When will it unfold? Is it good or bad? You can see how happy the group is, when a good effect is revealed and how paranoid those who still have unresolved cards become after a bad effect happened.
If you are really good you can set up situations in which the players understand it is a cards effect (see hermit for example) without explicitly saying that, creating much joy. Or you can have the group mourn a dead companion and then be very disturbed when the card they thought means death does not disappear.
A campaign could end with drawing plot hooks for the follow up.
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2017-08-17, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Giving the Deck of Many Things to controlled followers negates almost all downsid
Ok, let's say you planar bind an air elemental and you hand the deck over to it and order it to draw. Since we're being very technical in our Rules as Written, not as intended, we need to do the same about the effects.
Because drawing from the deck could be very detrimental to it's health, we'll assume that it treats it as a hostile command and gets to try to subvert any command you give it, if possible. Elemental are not particularly bright so that may be a mitigating factor in how clever it can be. It's preferable to celestial/fiends and fey who can be quite clever.
The elemental will see the card before you and you'll have to command it to show you the card before you can give it commands to surrender whatever goodies it got.
Balance: The alignment swings to Good or Evil. The Air Elemental will now either view you as a hated enemy that needs to be destroyed or as a horrible person that takes away the free will of others and you should be stopped. It is now motivated beyond simple self preservation. Assuming it doesn't become trapped, it's going to gather allies and seek retribution/justice.
Comet: Free HD upgrade when it gets free to hunt you down.
Donjon: Hope that the elemental doesn't have any Djinn friends who might decide it's been gone too long and come looking for it. The Djinn may not be able to use the wishes themselves, but don't discount them from being clever. I'd hate to have a mob of air creatures rescue their friend and then decide to hunt me down who had the power of wishes.
Euryale: More honked off Air Elemental. Adding fuel to the fire.
The Fates: This is the card you absolutely do not want your elemental to draw, ever. According to the wording, the elemental will get to see it first and make a decision on what to do with it before you can issue any commands. It simply wants you to have never found the deck.
Flames: The devil wants to make the elemental suffer as much as possible, so now it's allied with you whether you want it or not. Sooner or later, it's going to see that your soul is very tempting since you are so much more powerful than the elemental and it's going to plot your downfall so it can reap your life essence. It may hate the elemental, but it desires your soul.
Fool: The air elemental draws the card and whispers to you "Fool".
Gem: By strict following of the rules as written, Air elemental have no feet, therefore no gems and gold appear.
Idiot: The INT could be lowered to the point where the elemental could be considered non-sentient and therefor unable to draw cards. At minimum, it's heading to an INT of 4, which is highly arguable if the elemental could draw anymore.
Jester: The air elemental draws the card and whispers to you "Foolish Fool"
Key: Since the DM chooses the weapon and the drawer must be proficient, no weapon appears. Air Elementals have no weapon proficiency. You're going to have to be very spesific about what you bind if you want to get the right weapon and the DM is likely to say "ok, a +2 silvered dagger appears". Why should you be rewarded with fabulous loot that you really didn't risk anything for?
Knight: You now have a weaker air elemental who you now have to issue complicated commands through the original air elemental to have it do anything. Would have just been easier to bind another air elemental, right?
Moon: Never discount on the elemental INT of 6 and it saying something dumb. In conversation with you, it could easily say something like "I hate you and I wish you would die". You could get around this by making a complicated statement that would restrict it to not saying wish unless you wanted it to. But remember that INT of 6...if you make a complicated wish that has careful language, it could very well screw it up by mistake.
Rouge: If an NPC doesn't like the elemental, it probably won't like you either. You summoned the thing it hates, so now you're lumped in with it. Guilt by association, I suppose.
Ruin: You don't want it drawing this card right after it draws the Throne or Gem (assuming it has the feet to receive the loot)
Skull: If I was feeling particularly cheeky, I would have the air elemental fight a particularly under-powered death avatar after they drew the Comet. If no Comet was available, I'd have the elemental throw the fight so it could go back to its home plane.
Star: The elemental just got faster. Awesome! You didn't get anything though.
Sun: As with the Gem, elemental don't have hands, so no wondrous item shows up. If you were binding a creature with hands, the DM could put something nasty there, like a sphere of annihilation or a cursed item. You might end up with something dumb, like a folding boat.
Talons: Not a big deal
Throne: The last thing you want is to have a angry air elemental with a grudge that has proficiency in persuasion with a bonus. You're making it into a dangerous villain that you can only hope that it draws a Donjon or something nasty to lock it away from you. This is very dangerous to have it it starts to gather friends to get you. As for the keep, sure you can have it give it to you. Who knows what kind of monsters the DM will put it in for you to try to claim it, especially when you tried to take all the risk out of drawing from the deck. You're probably high enough level to already build yourself a keep.
Vizier: This is another card where the elemental can act on it before you give it a command. It can waste the information on something trivial or information on how to get free. It's all mental and happens in a flash, probably wasting your opportunity to use it.
Void: This is a strange one for elementals since they really don't have bodies, they just animate the elements while they are summoned. It makes more sense for celestials, fey and devil/demons since they have a body. Honestly, this and the Donjon are cards you kind of hope for since a lot of cards are just going to make the creature angry and vengeful or power it up.
You are spending a LOT of resources for not much gain. You need to be at least 9th level before you can bind anything and that's only once a day. You can summon one thing a day and have it draw for you for negligible benefits. The only thing on here that would appeal to me as a 9th level wizard would be the wishes. Even the gold, fortress and magical items aren't big draws since I can get those adventuring anyway. The big draws of the deck are being able to get massive xp boosts (which you can't get since you aren't drawing) and the "get out of jail free card", which I've already explained probably won't work unless you get very complicated with your commands and with an INT 6 creature, the possibility of them screwing up is high. With a higher INT summoned creature, the possibility of them screwing you over is high as well.
Trying to take the risk out of the Deck of Many things takes a lot of the reward out of it. You're spending more energy trying to get something that could be done on a simple dungeon crawl