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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default melee/caster build assistance

    I'm getting back into the game again after about 25 years. I used to play back in college but I live in a fairly rural area now so D&D groups aren't that common around here. Last edition I played was 2nd so there's a lot of new info to absorb. For my first char I made a fighter with the intent to multiclass with wizard but the more I look at it I'm not sure that's the best way to go. So I come asking for some guidance. I went finesse and chose variant human race. I took TWF style and Dual Wielder feat. My intent was to be primarily a melee fighter with spells to enhance. Green-flame blade and booming blade caught my attention, not to mention shield and haste. I really doubt the char makes it past the 10-15 level range if I understand how the groups normally progress, certainly not looking to plan for level 20. The original plan was to be around fighter 6/wizard X. So my question is am I just better off being an EK? We're all still level 1 so I still have options, other than my ability scores and race. Ability scores are as follows:
    Str: 14
    Dex: 17
    Con: 15
    Int: 16
    Wis: 12
    Cha: 9

    With those all I can do at this point is multi to Rogue or Wizard, though by level 6 I could theoretically raise my Cha enough to go into Sorcerer or Warlock.

    I want to play a melee/caster with the emphasis being melee. So my question is... What should I do? I'm open to any and all suggestions, just be kind to the (again) newbie.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by imtodd View Post
    I'm getting back into the game again after about 25 years. I used to play back in college but I live in a fairly rural area now so D&D groups aren't that common around here. Last edition I played was 2nd so there's a lot of new info to absorb. For my first char I made a fighter with the intent to multiclass with wizard but the more I look at it I'm not sure that's the best way to go. So I come asking for some guidance. I went finesse and chose variant human race. I took TWF style and Dual Wielder feat. My intent was to be primarily a melee fighter with spells to enhance. Green-flame blade and booming blade caught my attention, not to mention shield and haste. I really doubt the char makes it past the 10-15 level range if I understand how the groups normally progress, certainly not looking to plan for level 20. The original plan was to be around fighter 6/wizard X. So my question is am I just better off being an EK? We're all still level 1 so I still have options, other than my ability scores and race. Ability scores are as follows:
    Str: 14
    Dex: 17
    Con: 15
    Int: 16
    Wis: 12
    Cha: 9

    With those all I can do at this point is multi to Rogue or Wizard, though by level 6 I could theoretically raise my Cha enough to go into Sorcerer or Warlock.

    I want to play a melee/caster with the emphasis being melee. So my question is... What should I do? I'm open to any and all suggestions, just be kind to the (again) newbie.
    TWF is not compatible with spell casting unless you burn another feat (war caster) or play with action economy shenanigans or your DM ignores free hand somatic/material component.

    Instead of saying you want to play a melee/caster it is probably better if you let us know what you are trying to accomplish as a melee/caster. Will you be primarily tanking, dishing out damage as melee, control the battlefield, nuking + archery. Each of these can be built.

    That said I will give you some general advice, I think you may want to look into the Eldritch Knight fighter subclass and eventually multi into wizard if you feel that the Eldritch Knight's casting isn't enough for what you are trying to accomplish in game.

    If it is possible to move your ability scores around you may want to look into paladin / sorcerer multi class too. There is even an excellent guide on this website on that specific multi class.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Fighter to 6th picking Eldritch knight, and ASI/feats of warcaster and dex/con +1 looks very solid. After that you can choose more EK levels or just swap to wizard. Be aware that booming blade doesn't work with your multiple attacks from 5th level onwards, but it is great with opportunity attacks from warcaster.

    It's not considered an optimal build, because TWF isn't quite as strong as some other fighting styles, but it will be perfectly respectable and once the wizard levels kick in will have a marvelous range of options.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Your description sounds like a straight Eldritch Knight rather then a fighter/wizard multiclass.

    I'd replace Dual Wielder with War Caster because, as stated above, you need a free hand to cast spells with somatic or material component, and War Caster solves the somatic component problem.

    Another thing to consider is that you won't be able to use a spellcasting focus if you don't multiclass in wizard tho, so you will have to keep a component pouch.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    Your description sounds like a straight Eldritch Knight rather then a fighter/wizard multiclass.

    I'd replace Dual Wielder with War Caster because, as stated above, you need a free hand to cast spells with somatic or material component, and War Caster solves the somatic component problem.

    Another thing to consider is that you won't be able to use a spellcasting focus if you don't multiclass in wizard tho, so you will have to keep a component pouch.
    You can't take warcaster at level one because you are not a spellcaster at that stage.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Aymon View Post
    You can't take warcaster at level one because you are not a spellcaster at that stage.
    Right. Forgot the prerequisite to cast at least one spell.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    TWF is not compatible with spell casting unless you burn another feat (war caster) or play with action economy shenanigans or your DM ignores free hand somatic/material component.
    My original plan was to be EK at level 3 and pick up Warcaster level 4. I realize that creates an issue with casting for 1 level but I'll just have to deal with it.

    Also it appears I will be tank and damage dealer both, depending on the encounter. No plans on being consistently ranged.
    Last edited by imtodd; 2017-08-11 at 06:00 AM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    You will only have to worry about casting for one level. If you're set in twf, just make sure you bind your weapons to you before combat (start with the off hand one in case you only have time for one). For the one level drop your sword to cast, and then summon it back with your bonus.

    Honestly I would reconsider twf. if you go Dueling (or Defense) and if your DM is ok with it you can multiclass into a Bladesinger Wizard. Even if you don't go Bladesinger, EKs get a lot of options for their bonus action.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Koren View Post
    You will only have to worry about casting for one level. If you're set in twf, just make sure you bind your weapons to you before combat (start with the off hand one in case you only have time for one). For the one level drop your sword to cast, and then summon it back with your bonus.

    Honestly I would reconsider twf. if you go Dueling (or Defense) and if your DM is ok with it you can multiclass into a Bladesinger Wizard. Even if you don't go Bladesinger, EKs get a lot of options for their bonus action.
    Honestly, I have a thing for TWF, even before I read about it in Salvatore's books. I did see the Bladesinger sub and really like it but it's too late for that since I didn't go elf.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Yeah I went Str Polearm Dragonborn EK so people keep saying "Bladesinger" and I can just huff a little.

    But for sure do what you want before what is "optimal." The game is about fun after all! And I can imagine some awesome fluff for a dual wielding spell slinger

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    There are ways to get around casting spells without grabbing War Caster. The simplest is to use a staff as one of your weapons and beat people up Movie Gandalf style, but that requires a Str build to work as it isn't compatible with finesse. Items that function as an arcane focus (wands, rods, staves, ect) can be wielded and used for somatic components, unlike your typical sword. Sadly there aren't any finesse focus items, unless you convince your DM to let you use a fancy sacrificial dagger as an arcane focus. But wielding a dagger in your off-hand sorta defeats the purpose of picking up Dual Weider.

    The mechanics of dual wielding (sadly) are heavily stacked against your concept. You'll need to pay the Warcaster tax to make it work, so make sure to grab that once you hit level 4. And do keep in mind that Booming/Greenflame Blade both prevent you from using your multiple attack feature, though you CAN still make your off-hand attack as a bonus action.

    More generally, what are you planning on doing with your character? What's your goal with the spellcasting?

    Derp. That got answered.

    You'll want to stick to spells without somatic or material components until you hit level 4. Thankfully EK doesn't start getting spells until 3, so you won't have to worry about it TOO much. It's just one level of being hindered.
    Last edited by Rebonack; 2017-08-11 at 09:16 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Just for clarity, my original thought was making the fighter/mage from 2e, but obviously it doesn't quite work that way now. I think I'll enjoy it still. I'm not worried about being the most powerful character at the table. I do however like variety and utility. I think this will succeed in that. My plan for now is to grab EK at level 3, then Warcaster at level 4. After that I'll decide if I want to move to Wizard or gain more fighter levels.

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by imtodd View Post
    Just for clarity, my original thought was making the fighter/mage from 2e, but obviously it doesn't quite work that way now. I think I'll enjoy it still. I'm not worried about being the most powerful character at the table. I do however like variety and utility. I think this will succeed in that. My plan for now is to grab EK at level 3, then Warcaster at level 4. After that I'll decide if I want to move to Wizard or gain more fighter levels.
    Since you're coming from 2e, some other options may not have occurred to you yet (as the rule sets are so wildly different) but you might want to consider a Fighter 2 / Abjurer Wizard X. Fighter 2 nets you the awesome action surge and Abjurer gives some great defensive options. I'd recommend a str build with Mountain Dwarf for the extra HP to offset the wizard levels low hp but you seem set on Human.

    Bladesinger can be played with other races depending on your GM and their campaign setting, if you like the mechanics it is worth asking about.

    Valor Bard might be worth a look too, especially as you're considering a dex build (they don't get heavy armour proficiency which you won't miss with a dex build).
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomthom View Post
    Since you're coming from 2e, some other options may not have occurred to you yet (as the rule sets are so wildly different) but you might want to consider a Fighter 2 / Abjurer Wizard X. Fighter 2 nets you the awesome action surge and Abjurer gives some great defensive options. I'd recommend a str build with Mountain Dwarf for the extra HP to offset the wizard levels low hp but you seem set on Human.

    Bladesinger can be played with other races depending on your GM and their campaign setting, if you like the mechanics it is worth asking about.

    Valor Bard might be worth a look too, especially as you're considering a dex build (they don't get heavy armour proficiency which you won't miss with a dex build).
    It's not that I'm set on human, I AM human. The campaign has already started, even though we're all still level 1. I think I may have joined the second session actually, but immaterial.

    Also I haven't even looked at the schools until now. I guess I just assumed they had something more along the lines of subclasses like the others. Though I guess it's similar, but still a little different.
    Last edited by imtodd; 2017-08-11 at 11:08 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by imtodd View Post
    It's not that I'm set on human, I AM human. The campaign has already started, even though we're all still level 1. I think I may have joined the second session actually, but immaterial.

    Also I haven't even looked at the schools until now. I guess I just assumed they had something more along the lines of subclasses like the others. Though I guess it's similar, but still a little different.
    Fighter/Abjurer is by far the best option for what you have currently. I'd go wizard immediately until wizard 5, then maybe pick up that second level in fighter. It keeps you from feeling behind, although TWF is a decent way to keep more than one attack a round, so it doesn't hurt as bad.

    The thing with TWF staff and sword, while cool, doesn't really solve your problems from a warcaster standpoint. Shield spell is the main reason for warcaster and it doesn't have a material component, so you would still need a free hand to cast it as a reaction.
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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by imtodd View Post
    I took TWF style and Dual Wielder feat. My intent was to be primarily a melee fighter with spells to enhance.
    This is where the Eldritch Knight might fail you. The EK spell list is Abjuration and Evocation, only 1 / 3 of your spell known can be from other schools, and the number of Abjuration spells interesting for an EK is not that high. So, you'll have only a few buffs spells are some blast spells you may not want.
    This is something you must take into consideration before deciding to go full EK.

    Green-flame blade and booming blade caught my attention,
    You should note that not only spellcasting is incompatible with TWF without WarCaster or some shenanigans as others have said. But those particular spells are incompatible with TWF because you're not using an attack action unless you reach the lvl 7 of EK.


    not to mention shield and haste. I really doubt the char makes it past the 10-15 level range if I understand how the groups normally progress, certainly not looking to plan for level 20. The original plan was to be around fighter 6/wizard X. So my question is am I just better off being an EK?
    If you multiclass to an arcane caster class, i would advise you to go EK on the Fighter side anyway, for the War Magic and for the additional spells / cantrips known and spell slots. And to avoid to have to learn a different mechanic with BattleMaster.

    You should however ponder the possibility to multiclass to Warlock or Sorcerer if you take only a few levels of EK. You can take non-save spells for EK (like Shield) and take your attack spells with Warlock / Sorcerer. Sorcerer can quicken spells and Warlock are front-loaded with some nice abilities and combos right at level 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by imtodd View Post
    Also it appears I will be tank and damage dealer both, depending on the encounter. No plans on being consistently ranged.
    Sadly, both for tanking and damage dealing, or even as a compromise between both, TWF is not the best style in 5E. At least past level 4. It is very good for level 1 to 3.
    If you're really set on it, i'd advise you to at least level 7 of EK. If you're not set on it, i'd advise you to ask the DM to rebuild your level 1 to go Great Weapon Master with Defence style, so to solve your free hand issue and preserve some of your AC.
    Last edited by Petrocorus; 2017-08-11 at 04:09 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Unfortunately due to how TWF is implemented in this edition it is the worst style for a melee/caster this edition. It is better on Champions and Battlemasters who don't have bonus actions unlike the EK. Nor do they have to worry about keeping a free hand. My advice is to speak with the DM and see if he/she allows you to swap your feat and rebuild for something else.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    I am beginning to understand the mechanics a little better and what goes into each action. I can see TWF really does not mesh well with this build. I think given how it appears to work the paladin smite is probably more what I was after and seems like it would work better with TWF. With the stat selection I have it would take 2 ASI improvements to be able to get to paladin so it looks like I may just eat the initial feat and style choices and just go straight EK with either sword/shield or 2-hander.

    I want to thank everyone for their input and being willing to help a guy out.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Before you just eat it, I would highly suggest one of two things:

    First, you have an image in your head of your character. Make that image. Who cares what the absolute top choice would be? You're playing to have fun, so have fun with *your* character. Unless your group is super hard on optimization it won't make that big a difference.

    Second, if you're set on changing then ask your dm if they will allow you to change your choices. Maybe they'll work with you. That first feat is THE reason to pick Vuman, it would be a shame to make it go to waste.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    TWF+Spellcasting is no death sentence, especially since as a fighter you've got feats to spare and only get 1/3 casting anyway. It's about having options, not blindly following a routine. I've got this going on with my rogue - anything out of melee range is either getting pulled into melee with a Lightning Lure or Fire Bolt'd until I can get to it, and then I'll dive on it for my 7-dice rolling (have double-crit twice; this past one did 42 damage with attribute modifiers for only my primary attack ). Admittedly, the two-weapon is largely because I don't always need my Cunning Action, but it's a great way to add extra damage when there's not much else going on.

    I may actually have a problem with resorting to TWF as my stand-by, especially given how IRL impractical it is. Did this with my Dwarf Bard last game...it was as non-optimal and amazing as it sounds.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    So if your still level 1 ask if you can just reroll a new character and roll up a high elf bladesinger and duel wield two short swords. Two weapon fighting don't interfere with your bladesong. Also by level 6 you can cast haste on your self and make 4 attacks 4d6+9 and your AC with mage armor will be 13+ dex mod + int mod +2. So if two 16's that's AC=21 and when needed drop a shield spell for AC= 26.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    I think at this point I will do as many have suggested and petition the DM to let me do one of a few things...

    1) Change race to elf or halfelf (will of course require dropping the feat and picking it up later)
    2) Allow humans to be bladesingers
    3) Allow me to change my initial feat and weapon style to better synergize the melee/caster build

    If none of the above, then I will play the char as built and enjoy it, because there's nothing really wrong with it, just not what I had intended. There will be other campaigns hopefully where I can play this particular style. With that being said I'm going to start another thread asking for input on things that might synergize with TWF, though from what I read TWF just doesn't work in 5e. But for some reason I want it to (I blame Salvatore and I'm sure there are many like me).

    Thanks to everyone for being patient and helpful!

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by imtodd View Post
    I'm getting back into the game again after about 25 years. I used to play back in college but I live in a fairly rural area now so D&D groups aren't that common around here. Last edition I played was 2nd so there's a lot of new info to absorb. For my first char I made a fighter with the intent to multiclass with wizard but the more I look at it I'm not sure that's the best way to go. So I come asking for some guidance. I went finesse and chose variant human race. I took TWF style and Dual Wielder feat. My intent was to be primarily a melee fighter with spells to enhance. Green-flame blade and booming blade caught my attention, not to mention shield and haste. I really doubt the char makes it past the 10-15 level range if I understand how the groups normally progress, certainly not looking to plan for level 20. The original plan was to be around fighter 6/wizard X. So my question is am I just better off being an EK? We're all still level 1 so I still have options, other than my ability scores and race. Ability scores are as follows:
    Str: 14
    Dex: 17
    Con: 15
    Int: 16
    Wis: 12
    Cha: 9

    With those all I can do at this point is multi to Rogue or Wizard, though by level 6 I could theoretically raise my Cha enough to go into Sorcerer or Warlock.

    I want to play a melee/caster with the emphasis being melee. So my question is... What should I do? I'm open to any and all suggestions, just be kind to the (again) newbie.
    Hi!

    With emphasis into melee, with DEX, you have basically three options.
    1. Heavy single-hit.
    2. Balanced.
    3. Flurry duelist.

    1. Means Rogue multiclass, not just a dip. On the plus side, it's very solid: going Arcane Trickster would get you a few more level 1 tricks and cantrips, and you'd get a bunch of always-on great feature. Your main attack would be Booming Blade + Sneak Attack.

    2. Balanced: means staying pure Eldricht Knight or dipping Wizard, nevertheless going for the Sword & Board with weapon attacks or cantrips. You choose the best suited to any situation. Requires Warcaster.

    3. Flurry Duelist: means trying to get as many and as good weapon attacks as possible. So EK ASAP to get 3rd attack or early Wizard multiclass to get Haste early. Another way to go would be getting Resilient: Wisdom then multiclass into War Cleric to buff yourself with Divine Favor.

    Don't worry about people saying that TWF is lackluster, because it does give you great versatility without any feat investment compared to others... Although it does bring less to a build with main DEX compared to a build with main STR, but anyways...
    IF...
    a) Many feats piqued your interest beyond Warcaster...
    b) You plan on multiclassing much (thus getting less ASI than normal).
    c) Or it's just the most fun playstyle for you...
    Go forth with it and pick the related Fighting Style. I'd say for you Dual Wielder is far from indispensable though (because all finesse weapons that can be thrown amount to only daggers, which are also light).

    If neither case holds true, then drop TWF and instead go one-handed (easier casting) or sword&board (requires Warcaster, needs AC) for better optimization or even bareshield-handed (only using cantrips such as Shocking Grasp or punching/bashing with Tavern Brawler ^^) for better potential fun.

    IMO: if(as long as) you are unsure of why multiclass, stay Eldricht Knight straight up to level 7 then see whether you'd prefer...
    a) To become the best debuffer of your party > straight Eldricht Knight 11 first.
    b) To get many more toys to play with > Wizard 3/5 first.

  24. - Top - End - #24
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: melee/caster build assistance

    Quote Originally Posted by imtodd View Post
    ... though from what I read TWF just doesn't work in 5e. But for some reason I want it to (I blame Salvatore and I'm sure there are many like me).

    It isn't that TWF doesn't work in 5e, it's just that it is a very niche build. I can think of 3 character types that actually benefit from it.

    Rogues can benefit from it, since they usually have nothing else to do with their off hand. Often they'll need their bonus action for something else, but if you miss your main attack, a second chance to land sneak attack can be very important.

    Paladins can use it for an extra divine smite, but since they are kinda limited on number of spell slots, it only contributes a bit to nova builds.

    The Unearthed Arcana Mystic version 2 could make a very potent assassin using it, via lethal strike.

    The key in each of these is the attack gets lots of riders added to it, to up its damage.

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