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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Sariel Vailo's Avatar

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    Default Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    If no state your reason if yes state your reason. I will go first.I enjoy the purple dragon knight i like the fluff i like giving an extra go round for a party member of my choice and since i grab the feat for some manuvers it gets intresting.
    Its the midle finger of vecna's spokeswoman your hostess with the mostess the drow of wow sariel and i have a link for you.
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    linklele you have brought a beautiful and favorite character of mine as well as fluffy to life i wanted to thank you. i may never again switch my avatar

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I like the theory behind the PDK, but not its execution. It just ends up being too clunky for my liking.

    My problem is that the times where you need to use Second Wind aren't necessarily when your party needs you to use Rallying Cry. Same with Inspiring Surge. I might use Action Surge because it's a great time for me to use it, but what if my team isn't in the right spots to make use of it? Meanwhile, what if the team really needs a top-off heal, but I'm fine. Then I need to "waste" my Second Wind to heal them, when I might need it later.

    Royal Envoy is pretty useful, though, and Bulwark can help, but is very situational.

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Aett_Thorn covered it. The archetype doesn't gain new features or resource, just alternative affects added on to existing resource features. Compare to BM, champion, and EK, all of which gain brand new features and two of which gain new resource pools with which to use those features.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I think it ages well. At level 20, you can heal 85.5avg hit points with a bonus action, and use Inspiring Surge twice. That's cool.

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    Sariel Vailo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I like it i guess its fun
    Its the midle finger of vecna's spokeswoman your hostess with the mostess the drow of wow sariel and i have a link for you.
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    linklele you have brought a beautiful and favorite character of mine as well as fluffy to life i wanted to thank you. i may never again switch my avatar

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    I like the theory behind the PDK, but not its execution. It just ends up being too clunky for my liking.

    My problem is that the times where you need to use Second Wind aren't necessarily when your party needs you to use Rallying Cry. Same with Inspiring Surge. I might use Action Surge because it's a great time for me to use it, but what if my team isn't in the right spots to make use of it? Meanwhile, what if the team really needs a top-off heal, but I'm fine. Then I need to "waste" my Second Wind to heal them, when I might need it later.

    Royal Envoy is pretty useful, though, and Bulwark can help, but is very situational.
    Yeah Ive played it and this is what's frustrating. I suppose in a subtle way it makes you change your strategies to save wind/surge for when you really need them and so coordinate better - like a leader of men should I suppose - but it weakens them. Having said that, if you load up on feats or abilities that add other bonus action options it can be fun to play
    I had an orc banneret with shield master. Bonus action was either dashing towards enemy (orc Aggressive) bashing them prone or Rallying cry. Always useful.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    I think it ages well. At level 20, you can heal 85.5avg hit points with a bonus action, and use Inspiring Surge twice. That's cool.
    Where are you getting your numbers from on the first point? I'm reading up to three allies, and each heals your Fighter level. That's 3x20 max, for 60 HP.

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    Where are you getting your numbers from on the first point? I'm reading up to three allies, and each heals your Fighter level. That's 3x20 max, for 60 HP.
    And then you add the healing from Second Wind (1d10 + fighter level).

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    And then you add the healing from Second Wind (1d10 + fighter level).
    Ah, yes. I wasn't counting that, I guess because it was part of the base feature that any fighter could do. But you are right to count that in there. My bad.

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Works fine from what I have seen; kind of wish the shared 'Action surge' would allow spellcasting, I have seen a situation with caster heavy AL group where it felt kind of silly to surge and the best you can do is the knowledge Cleric or
    Lore Bard can take a Potshot

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I really like the concept, but I think it is a bit weak.

    The Rallying Cry is neat, but not sharing the full Second Wind makes it very underwhelming until higher levels (where it is still underwhelming, just not very), something you really don't want for your first real feature. Yes, the fact that it effects up to three creatures is nice, but healing a whopping 3 damage is absolutely pathetic at anything other than first level. It would be different if this could bring back up fallen allies, but as they must be able to see or hear you, that is not the case.

    Inspiring Surge, on the other hand, is really freaking cool, but is doesn't come until level 10, and when all the earlier features are so underwhelming, it is just hard to justify waiting that long.

    Finally Bulwark is just really bad. It would be bad even as a level 3 feature, but it is especially bad considering when it comes. Granting allies second chance saves is actually really great, but only being available against things that also target you AND you also failed and wanted to use Indomitable against means that it will almost never come up. Giving a secondary set of Indomitable uses only for allies that you can spend any time would be fantastic. But as is, this is practically a waste of a feature.

    Now, that all said, I really like the theme of the class, and I love the level 7 Royal Envoy feature. There is plenty good here, but the mechanics just don't work out that well. Make Rallying Cry share the full Second Wind healing and suddenly you have a martial that can be a respectable backup healer, and you have a class decent enough to be worth making it to level 10 in for its real star feature. And make Bulwark actually allow you to help allies in situations where they need it by allowing you to use it any time against any save they have to make (with some reasonable range and/or sight restrictions) and you actually have a reason to continue on to higher levels.
    Last edited by jas61292; 2017-08-11 at 12:24 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Works fine from what I have seen; kind of wish the shared 'Action surge' would allow spellcasting, I have seen a situation with caster heavy AL group where it felt kind of silly to surge and the best you can do is the knowledge Cleric or
    Lore Bard can take a Potshot
    That's one of my other reasons for not really liking it that much: it seems very reliant on your party makeup to make good use of it. If you've got a Rogue in your party, Inspiring Surge can be great! If you're the only martial character, it sucks. That feels rather wonky to me. Class features (for the most part) shouldn't be that reliant on party makeup.

    Also, compare this to Commander's Strike: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct one of your companions to strike. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you and expend one superiority die.That creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll."

    So at level 10, you get to make one attack, and you give up your second and your bonus action to allow another character to make one attack, and if they hit, they get some added damage to it. Sure, it's not great because of the action economy expense, but you can use this up to four times per short rest at that level, and you'd giving the other person extra damage if they hit. Compare this to the once per short rest Inspiring Surge, and it seems a bit weak.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    That's one of my other reasons for not really liking it that much: it seems very reliant on your party makeup to make good use of it. If you've got a Rogue in your party, Inspiring Surge can be great! If you're the only martial character, it sucks. That feels rather wonky to me. Class features (for the most part) shouldn't be that reliant on party makeup.

    Also, compare this to Commander's Strike: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct one of your companions to strike. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you and expend one superiority die.That creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll."

    So at level 10, you get to make one attack, and you give up your second and your bonus action to allow another character to make one attack, and if they hit, they get some added damage to it. Sure, it's not great because of the action economy expense, but you can use this up to four times per short rest at that level, and you'd giving the other person extra damage if they hit. Compare this to the once per short rest Inspiring Surge, and it seems a bit weak.
    This is true. I do think the action economy advantage is definitely worth a ton, but it is certainly not strong enough compared to something gotten 7 levels earlier and can be used many times more often.

    That being said, I would not want it changed to allow spellcasting, without generally changing how it works, because a spell is far stronger at that level than any one single attack. Definitely would be hard to balance, but I can definitely see expanding this in some way.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    This is true. I do think the action economy advantage is definitely worth a ton, but it is certainly not strong enough compared to something gotten 7 levels earlier and can be used many times more often.

    That being said, I would not want it changed to allow spellcasting, without generally changing how it works, because a spell is far stronger at that level than any one single attack. Definitely would be hard to balance, but I can definitely see expanding this in some way.
    What about allowing them to cast one cantrip, instead of allowing them to cast just any spell? It's still probably better than an attack from some classes later in the game, but probably isn't that imbalanced.

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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Personally, I just think it's the name that makes people not think about it, cause it's a Forgotten Realms thing. They should have called it Banneret and then mentioned that in Forgotten Realms these are the Purple Dragon Knights, instead of the other way around like they did.

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Personally, I just think it's the name that makes people not think about it, cause it's a Forgotten Realms thing. They should have called it Banneret and then mentioned that in Forgotten Realms these are the Purple Dragon Knights, instead of the other way around like they did.
    A rose by any other name would smell as weak.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I don't hate it, but I do find it underwhelming and disappointing.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    If one were to separate the additional bonus from theoriginal features, would that work? So you get Second Wind and Rallying Cry. Allow the Banneret to do both as one action, but great them as separate resources.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    If one were to separate the additional bonus from theoriginal features, would that work? So you get Second Wind and Rallying Cry. Allow the Banneret to do both as one action, but great them as separate resources.
    I actually think that this might really help it out a lot. It would certainly make it feel more like a Warlord-type character than one in which you're worrying about when to use powers to maximize both your and your party's effectiveness.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    If one were to separate the additional bonus from theoriginal features, would that work? So you get Second Wind and Rallying Cry. Allow the Banneret to do both as one action, but great them as separate resources.
    That would be nice, but I think Rallying Cry would need far more of a bonus than that. The damage it heals is absolutely pathetic, when, as the level 3 feature it should be the main thing that attracts you to the subclass. A battle master gets 4 maneuvers per short rest that allow him to do cool things he never could do before, and do more damage too. A Champion has a higher chance to crit on every attack they make from then on. An Eldritch Knight learns how to cast spells, including some cantrips which it can use at will.

    A Banneret.... can heal up to three people an amazing 3 HP... once per short rest. And only when he is already using a feature to heal himself. Getting rid of that last part, the need to heal yourself at the same time, would certainly help, but it won't change the fact that what Rallying Cry actually does is incredibly awful compared to every other subclass

    One idea I had is to change it so you only effect one creature at a time, but it is not tied to your second wind, and you essentially just use your bonus action to give another creature the full advantage of a Second Wind. Maybe limited to three per rest, rather than the old three at once.
    Last edited by jas61292; 2017-08-11 at 03:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    What annoys me is having to sing "I Love You, You Love Me" on every Charisma check...

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by archetypex View Post
    What annoys me is having to sing "I Love You, You Love Me" on every Charisma check...
    That's the Purple Dinosaur Knight. I think it's a Bard subclass, with all of the singing and all.

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Personally, I just think it's the name that makes people not think about it, cause it's a Forgotten Realms thing. They should have called it Banneret and then mentioned that in Forgotten Realms these are the Purple Dragon Knights, instead of the other way around like they did.
    Yeah. I have no real opinion on the mechanics of the sub-class. My dislike of it is that it's too tied in to the Forgotten Realms setting.

    I prefer my classes to be more setting-neutral.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    That would be nice, but I think Rallying Cry would need far more of a bonus than that. The damage it heals is absolutely pathetic, when, as the level 3 feature it should be the main thing that attracts you to the subclass. A battle master gets 4 maneuvers per short rest that allow him to do cool things he never could do before, and do more damage too. A Champion has a higher chance to crit on every attack they make from then on. An Eldritch Knight learns how to cast spells, including some cantrips which it can use at will.

    A Banneret.... can heal up to three people an amazing 3 HP... once per short rest. And only when he is already using a feature to heal himself. Getting rid of that last part, the need to heal yourself at the same time, would certainly help, but it won't change the fact that what Rallying Cry actually does is incredibly awful compared to every other subclass

    One idea I had is to change it so you only effect one creature at a time, but it is not tied to your second wind, and you essentially just use your bonus action to give another creature the full advantage of a Second Wind. Maybe limited to three per rest, rather than the old three at once.
    That would be useful. I may make that suggestion if Banneret comes up in play.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.
    No. We had him over for dinner last night, but when she took her helmet off we realized we'd made an unwarranted assumption on gender. Luckily, we have fine spirits and in short order conviviality was running amok in the parlor. (Our dogs sniffed a lot at the armor, and she smelled a bit of saddle and harness, but she was a fantastic dinner guest). We hope to have her over the next time we do a brisket smoking party. She said she might bring a few squires along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    I like the theory behind the PDK, but not its execution. It just ends up being too clunky for my liking.
    Yeah, it's a little campaign dependent for our group. Our fighter chose EK. He's very happy with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by archetypex View Post
    What annoys me is having to sing "I Love You, You Love Me" on every Charisma check...
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Personally I could care less about fluff, it's all about mechanics for me, and the PDK is mechanically awful. The 3rd level ability is extremely underpowered and borderline worthless. There are better classes if you want to be the party face, so the level 7 ability is useless as well. The only good ability PDK has is the one that allows you to share your Action Surge. But that's pretty high level.

    Fighter is unfortunately full of mediocre to outright terrible subclasses.

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja-Radish View Post
    There are better classes if you want to be the party face, so the level 7 ability is useless as well.
    Wanted to reply specifically to this. That's a bit like saying that shadow monk is useless, because [insert class here] is better at being sneaky. Suppose you're in a group that needs a party face but could also use a fighter. In that case, a fighter archetype that can also function as party face would be useful.

    The trouble with PDK 7 is that expertise in persuasion is not very useful. Expertise in all CHA skills would be one thing, but having it for just one is too little for an archetype feature that's supposed to rival remarkable athlete.
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    The trouble with PDK 7 is that expertise in persuasion is not very useful. Expertise in all CHA skills would be one thing, but having it for just one is too little for an archetype feature that's supposed to rival remarkable athlete.
    All CHA checks seems a bit much to me. Maybe Half-Prof to all CHA checks and Proficiency in CHA Saves?
    Last edited by GlenSmash!; 2017-08-11 at 06:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    All CHA checks seems a bit much to me. Maybe Half-Prof to all CHA checks and Proficiency in CHA Saves?
    That would also be an interesting option. Or maybe just advantage on charisma checks. Point is, it ought to be stronger than expertise in one skill. Compare this to the EK or champion 7, and it looks weak.

    On the other hand, compared to BM 7 it's good. So who knows what WotC is thinking?
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-08-11 at 07:14 PM.

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Now that I've reread 3.5's PDK, I think it was always meant to be a Paladin/Bard. Fighter is a hard chassis to put it into.

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