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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    mephnick's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I'd have to feel something for it to hate it. I don't think of it at all.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    In my personal opinion, the subclass is terrible and should have had one or two more drafts before going to print. It definitely could've benefited from the feedback that the UA subclasses got late last year/early this year.

    Furthermore, it should have just been called "The Banneret" with Purple Dragon Knight being a background available to Fighters and Paladins (at DM discretion maybe other martial classes as well, depending on upon their version of the realms).
    Last edited by DracoKnight; 2017-08-12 at 06:22 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    It's just weird to me as it's looks fun to play and you wished someone in party to play. But if suffers from what the champion suffers from It's lack luster. I can see we're it could get more fun if you add feats. But then your using ASI's on feats and not upping a state you might need.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    My play experience was relegated to a game with practically no combat (sister DMed, basically just rode the rails of an entirely insane story), but I like it. Could it have been better? Sure, just like Commanding Strike could suck less (a maneuver just doesn't do the concept of a warlord justice...nice try, though), but it's on the fighter's chassis, and when I want to play something simple that can provide some healing on the side, it's a nice choice. You get some extra usage out of the abilities you already have while still being a fighter and swinging a sword a bunch of times.

    Come to think of it, Banneret+the maneuver feat does get you a warlord approximation, which I guess is what some people have been saying from the get-go. Cool.

    As for the PDK vs Banneret stuff - FR is the primary setting now, in the same way Points of Light is 4e's default. You don't have to play the setting if you don't want to, but things will be marketed from the FR standpoint, and the names will reflect that. (On that note, bladesinger? We have a bard, could you not have done something not song-based? Does the concept even work outside the song metaphor?)
    Last edited by JBPuffin; 2017-08-12 at 08:06 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Hate is also a strong word for what I feel, which is more akin to exasperated sigh.

    The idea is cool. Whereas the champion is Fighter+ by strengthening the Fighter's passive abilities, the purple dragon knight is Fighter+ by strengthening the Fighter's active abilities.

    Fighter's have three active abilities and each of them have their own issues. All of them have only one use at level 11 (a level that I have picked up from anecdotal evidence to be one of the natural end points for a campaign). One of them never gets another use (second wind), one of them gets a second use just when casters are getting their 9th level spells (Action surge) and one of them doesn't come online until level 9 and gains two more charges at levels 13 and 17 respectively (indomitable).
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    If they remove the word "Knight", and changed the mechanics accordingly, it could be a fun REALLY fun character.

    DM: "So, everyone, we have a new player with us tonight. His name is Stan. Stan will be playing a Purple Dragon."

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    mephnick's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    In my personal opinion, the subclass is terrible and should have had one or two more drafts before going to print. It definitely could've benefited from the feedback that the UA subclasses got late last year/early this year.
    .
    I'm really afraid of what could have been withput the UA surveys for Xanathers Guide. The Sword Coast options really needed some community input because almost all of them are subpar.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I hated it at first because the powers seem so underwhelming, but reading this thread is making me want to play one.

    Play this if:

    1) You like having a character that's challenging to use right, but the payoff can be super
    2) Your play style is "leader" but you like smashing face
    3) You have multiple other martial characters in the party (barb, rogue, fight, pal, rgr)
    4) Your party lacks a primary healer and you don't want to play one

    I can see this guy in a party with a barbarian, a rogue, and another fighter and being the party's leader and strategist. By being a master of tactics, you give your team a huge martial boost, as opposed to a bard who just tosses around inspiration dice and casts spells. Easy mode.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    My first response was, "No thanks."

    Not horrible but not appealing to my more direct action "smash/spell it if the party face has no success in talking it to submission." That is just me but I can see the appeal to a different style if player.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2017-08-12 at 12:46 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    That would also be an interesting option. Or maybe just advantage on charisma checks. Point is, it ought to be stronger than expertise in one skill. Compare this to the EK or champion 7, and it looks weak.

    On the other hand, compared to BM 7 it's good. So who knows what WotC is thinking?
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post

    As for the PDK vs Banneret stuff - FR is the primary setting now, in the same way Points of Light is 4e's default. You don't have to play the setting if you don't want to, but things will be marketed from the FR standpoint, and the names will reflect that. (On that note, bladesinger? We have a bard, could you not have done something not song-based? Does the concept even work outside the song metaphor?)
    I get that FR is the primary setting, and I have no problems with them spending a paragraph or two in the class description explaining what it is in the FR setting. But look at the other classes that they introduced in the same book. All of the others are generic-named, and none are named for a specific group in a specific setting. So they deliberately broke pattern with this particular class, and I think that this naming convention turns people off from using it, since it's named something specific in the realms. The fact that there are other issues with it is not surprising, almost every subclass in this game has some issue with it, at least under-powered is easier to fix through things like feats or the races you take, if the DM doesn't want to get into homebrew repair options.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    I get that FR is the primary setting, and I have no problems with them spending a paragraph or two in the class description explaining what it is in the FR setting. But look at the other classes that they introduced in the same book. All of the others are generic-named, and none are named for a specific group in a specific setting. So they deliberately broke pattern with this particular class, and I think that this naming convention turns people off from using it, since it's named something specific in the realms. The fact that there are other issues with it is not surprising, almost every subclass in this game has some issue with it, at least under-powered is easier to fix through things like feats or the races you take, if the DM doesn't want to get into homebrew repair options.
    What about bladesinger, battlerage,

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir cryosin View Post
    What about bladesinger, battlerage,
    What about them? The names give no indication that they are something specific to the realms. In fact, the only thing they say is that in the realms there are specific restrictions. Otherwise, they don't say anything about being a specific organization, in a specific country, and oh, by the way if you want to use them elsewhere, call them this name.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Long Death and Sunsoul are both very setting specific organizations as well

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Long Death and Sunsoul are both very setting specific organizations as well
    Then I stand partially corrected, since the names also matched up very well with the class mechanic descriptions themselves, while Purple Dragon Knights don't, at least to me.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    Come to think of it, Banneret+the maneuver feat does get you a warlord approximation, which I guess is what some people have been saying from the get-go. Cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Human Paragon 3 View Post
    Play this if:

    1) You like having a character that's challenging to use right, but the payoff can be super
    2) Your play style is "leader" but you like smashing face
    3) You have multiple other martial characters in the party (barb, rogue, fight, pal, rgr)
    4) Your party lacks a primary healer and you don't want to play one

    I can see this guy in a party with a barbarian, a rogue, and another fighter and being the party's leader and strategist. By being a master of tactics, you give your team a huge martial boost, as opposed to a bard who just tosses around inspiration dice and casts spells. Easy mode.
    Combining these two together to frame my first impression of the PDK. Rallying Cry is a poor replacement for the Healer feat. Martial Adept is a poor replacement for the Battle Master's superiority dice. I'd sooner play a BM with the Healer feat than a PDK with the BM feat.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Thinks its kind of simple, it mostly boosts party members and not yourself, and most people
    enjoy to be a powerhouse themselves, not to make others one, and those that enjoy the latter
    tend to be casters. :)

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    What about them? The names give no indication that they are something specific to the realms. In fact, the only thing they say is that in the realms there are specific restrictions. Otherwise, they don't say anything about being a specific organization, in a specific country, and oh, by the way if you want to use them elsewhere, call them this name.
    Bladesingers and Battleragers are FR-specific groups / styles of training / race-class archetypes.

    It's an FR specific splat book. There's absolutely no reason they should have gone with generic first, FR-specific second. It's intended for use in the Forgotten Realms, with notes on how to adapt it to non-FR settings.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    What is odd to me is that...
    Quote Originally Posted by SCAG p128
    Banneret serves as the generic name for this archetype if you use it in other campaign settings or to model warlords other than Purple Dragon knights.
    suggests it is not strictly a matter of setting. Not all bannerets in Forgotten Realms are expected to be Purple Dragon knights. In that sense, I agree banneret should have been the main name of the archetype.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Bladesingers and Battleragers are FR-specific groups / styles of training / race-class archetypes.

    It's an FR specific splat book. There's absolutely no reason they should have gone with generic first, FR-specific second. It's intended for use in the Forgotten Realms, with notes on how to adapt it to non-FR settings.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    A background specific subclass is bad enough, giving it garbage features just killed it.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

    Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.

    I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpalchicken View Post
    I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

    Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.

    I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!
    Unconscious says they're "unaware of their surroundings," which could easily be interpreted as "can't hear for sh!te." I'd allows it, but eh. Also, that second bit's funny .
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpalchicken View Post

    I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!
    I see your dragon and raise you a knight. Your bet.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpalchicken View Post
    I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

    Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.

    I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!
    Unfortunately the devs hate you/PDK/Oath of the Crown.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpalchicken View Post
    I don't have my books in front of me so maybe there is a fiddly rule here, but what part of being unconscious makes you unable to hear?

    Loud noises wake people up all the time. And personally speaking I am at my most persuasive when my audience is asleep.
    Natural sleep and unconsciousness are not the same thing IRL. Additionally, there's no game rule that when a character is asleep, that they have the Unconcious condition. Talking about natural sleep here not the Sleep spell. So basing rulings for how the Unconcious condition on natural sleep IRL isn't a good idea. It appears to be closer to a concussion-style knock-out or blood-loss style pass-out, or a kind of short term coma. If you're looking for the IRL equivalent of the condition.

    I think it is absolutely the intent of Rallying Cry to bring people back to consciousness from zero hp. Like, the dragon just breathed and brought down half our party- good thing we've got a Purple Dragon Knight!
    Seems like it'd be a good rule-of-cool house rule. Although for the kind of people that didn't like Warlord healing, it might break their verisimilitude.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-08-14 at 09:23 AM. Reason: It's spelled unconcious lol

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Seems like it'd be a good rule-of-cool house rule. Although for the kind of people that didn't like Warlord healing, it might break their verisimilitude.
    You can't please both side of the divide, and having the ability exist but making it suck(the current situation) is just bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sariel Vailo View Post
    If no state your reason if yes state your reason. I will go first.I enjoy the purple dragon knight i like the fluff i like giving an extra go round for a party member of my choice and since i grab the feat for some manuvers it gets intresting.
    I kind of do hate the Purple Dragon knight, but I also kind of don't. I have this idea in the back of my head for a Purple Dragon Knight NPC (or solo campaign PC?) who, instead of leading a typical adventuring party of fighter + rogue + bard + wizard or whatever, instead leads a motley band of low-level henchmen, like Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

    The general idea is to optimize for being both an effective individual combatant and also a leader of men. Inspiring Leader feat + Healer feat helps you keep your men alive, and the Purple Dragon Knight action surge feature (whatever it's called) helps you leverage them offensively. Maybe go for Banneret/Swashbuckler so you can use Panache to taunt enemies further and keep them focused on killing you instead of your men--that seems very Robin Hood-esque.

    But I haven't actually done this so far, not even so much as writing up a full NPC stat block, and when I think too hard about it it seems to me that a Battlemaster/Swashbuckler with Inspiring Leader would do the same job as well or better... so maybe I really do hate the Purple Dragon Knight after all. (?) Still, it might be fun to try once for a short solo campaign, so maybe I don't hate it. :-/

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Combining these two together to frame my first impression of the PDK. Rallying Cry is a poor replacement for the Healer feat. Martial Adept is a poor replacement for the Battle Master's superiority dice. I'd sooner play a BM with the Healer feat than a PDK with the BM feat.
    Rallying Cry + Healer feat is a pretty decent synergy though. Healer feat gives you unlimited heals-from-0 HP for your buddies, and then they can see and hear again so Rallying Cry can give them a bunch of a restored HP on top of that if there's more fighting to do.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2017-08-15 at 05:56 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Sariel Vailo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I kind of do hate the Purple Dragon knight, but I also kind of don't. I have this idea in the back of my head for a Purple Dragon Knight NPC (or solo campaign PC?) who, instead of leading a typical adventuring party of fighter + rogue + bard + wizard or whatever, instead leads a motley band of low-level henchmen, like Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

    The general idea is to optimize for being both an effective individual combatant and also a leader of men. Inspiring Leader feat + Healer feat helps you keep your men alive, and the Purple Dragon Knight action surge feature (whatever it's called) helps you leverage them offensively. Maybe go for Banneret/Swashbuckler so you can use Panache to taunt enemies further and keep them focused on killing you instead of your men--that seems very Robin Hood-esque.

    But I haven't actually done this so far, not even so much as writing up a full NPC stat block, and when I think too hard about it it seems to me that a Battlemaster/Swashbuckler with Inspiring Leader would do the same job as well or better... so maybe I really do hate the Purple Dragon Knight after all. (?) Still, it might be fun to try once for a short solo campaign, so maybe I don't hate it. :-/



    Rallying Cry + Healer feat is a pretty decent synergy though. Healer feat gives you unlimited heals-from-0 HP for your buddies, and then they can see and hear again so Rallying Cry can give them a bunch of a restored HP on top of that if there's more fighting to do.


    i didnt even think of that i just like this i hated the other fighter archetypes. I really didnt get to into
    Battlemaster i didnt get into ek either champion i am kinda eh i guess ill use it. But pdk i just love it i frab the right feats and race and it becomes memorable,tiefling,drow,goliath aasimar all gokd feats like the ua for cooking to just i see uses for a tiefling pdk called destiny who cooks anx uses medicine and cares deeply for their group.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does everyone hate the purple dragon knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Rallying Cry + Healer feat is a pretty decent synergy though. Healer feat gives you unlimited heals-from-0 HP for your buddies, and then they can see and hear again so Rallying Cry can give them a bunch of a restored HP on top of that if there's more fighting to do.
    Rallying Cry should eventually outscale this, but you can also combine Healer feat with the Rally maneuver.

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