Wish/miracle - what can they do, exactly?

[skunk3]

I have read the exerpt regarding what wish can do, but I have a few questions:

1. It says that a wish can create or further enhance a magic item, but it doesn't give a price limit. It specifically mentions a 25k GP limit on non-magical items. Couldn't this be abused? (edit: nevermind, I see the XP costs involved.)

2. Say I had an existing magic item... would it be safe for me to wish for, say, 20k GP worth of enhancements to be added to it? What about 15k? I am trying to determine what would be reasonable here without my DM possibly warping the effect of my wish into something I do NOT want.

3. Would it be possible for a wish (or even a couple wishes) to change my character from a human to a half-celestial? What about the Cleric spell miracle? I'll eventually have access to that spell.

I wish that there was more info out there in 3.5 land that illustrates what wish/miracle can and cannot do.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have read the exerpt regarding what wish can do, but I have a few questions:

I'll see if I can answer them.

1. It says that a wish can create or further enhance a magic item, but it doesn't give a price limit. It specifically mentions a 25k GP limit on non-magical items. Couldn't this be abused? (edit: nevermind, I see the XP costs involved.)

There is no price limit; yes this can easily be abused.

2. Say I had an existing magic item... would it be safe for me to wish for, say, 20k GP worth of enhancements to be added to it? What about 15k? I am trying to determine what would be reasonable here without my DM possibly warping the effect of my wish into something I do NOT want.

Yes, but you pay a ton of XP for that.

3. Would it be possible for a wish (or even a couple wishes) to change my character from a human to a half-celestial? What about the Cleric spell miracle? I'll eventually have access to that spell.

I think Savage Species has some rules about Wish being able to kick start savage rituals, I'll have to check. Otherwise, that sounds like an unsafe effect of Wish.

Edit: Checking Savage Species, it looks like you can get some subtypes, but I didn't see anything that would allow templates like Half-Celestial.

As for Miracle, it basically falls to your god (AKA your DM) to decide if that would work.

I wish that there was more info out there in 3.5 land that illustrates what wish/miracle can and cannot do.

The more broad effects of the spells basically amount to "the DM decides!", and I agree that can be problematic.

[AvatarVecna]

I have read the exerpt regarding what wish can do, but I have a few questions:

1. It says that a wish can create or further enhance a magic item, but it doesn't give a price limit. It specifically mentions a 25k GP limit on non-magical items. Couldn't this be abused? (edit: nevermind, I see the XP costs involved.)

In a sense, this can indeed be abused. When you use a Wish to wish for a nonmagical item, there is a GP limit, and when you use Wish to wish for a magical item, there is no GP limit but rather an XP cost that must be paid (which essentially puts an XP limit on how much you can spend before you don't have XP left, or at least not enough left to cast Wish). That being said, if you have 1 billion XP, you can totally wish for an item that would take 1 billion XP to make (although that would leave you with no XP), and this would be considered a "safe" Wish that couldn't normally be screwed with.

2. Say I had an existing magic item... would it be safe for me to wish for, say, 20k GP worth of enhancements to be added to it? What about 15k? I am trying to determine what would be reasonable here without my DM possibly warping the effect of my wish into something I do NOT want.

The XP cost of Wish should answer this question. What level of improvement is reasonable? Whatever level of improvement you're willing to spend the XP to get.

3. Would it be possible for a wish (or even a couple wishes) to change my character from a human to a half-celestial? What about the Cleric spell miracle? I'll eventually have access to that spell.

Yes, as long as you don't have Transmutation as one of your forbidden schools. Use a Wish spell to replicate Polymorph Any Object, and turn yourself into a Half-Celestial version of yourself (this should be permanent). Whether your DM lets you just gain 4 ECL without doing anything to gimp you or to buff your party members is up to your particular table.

I wish that there was more info out there in 3.5 land that illustrates what wish/miracle can and cannot do.

Wish can do a great deal of things safely, and can do basically anything if you're willing to take the risk of screwy wishes. Furthermore, what Wish can do safely is pretty well defined, it's just extremely versatile. For most things you want to do, just think "is there a spell that already does that", and if the answer is yes, look up whether that spell can be duplicated via Wish. If the answer is yes, boom, that's another thing Wish can do.

EDIT: Appropriately enough, ninja'd.

[Gullintanni]

Miracle is probably the better of the two spells most of the time - it emulates other spells with no xp cost.

You can ask for all of the things Wish can normally do as well, though there's no guarantee it will work. The best thing about Miracle is that there is no partial fulfillment or twisting clauses. You either get what you asked for or your deity (the DM) says no. Miracle is much, much safer.

And as long as your request falls within your deities portfolio, your requests should typically be granted.

[RoboEmperor]

3. Would it be possible for a wish (or even a couple wishes) to change my character from a human to a half-celestial? What about the Cleric spell miracle? I'll eventually have access to that spell.

Savage Species has rules for using wish to change race. Its really simple, replace your race with the race you want. So if you turn yourself from human to aasimar, subtract 1 character level, remove your human bonus feat and extra skill points, turn your type to outsider, etc.

There should be no reason why wish can't grant you half-celestial.

AvatarVecna's method is actually dispellable, so it's not really "permanent", it just lasts permanently.

edit: Note that this is all Wish, NOT Miracle. For Miracle you gotta beg your DM to let you do what you want because all the fancy stuff Wish does is not listed in Miracle's spell description.

[Crake]

Yes, as long as you don't have Transmutation as one of your forbidden schools. Use a Wish spell to replicate Polymorph Any Object, and turn yourself into a Half-Celestial version of yourself (this should be permanent). Whether your DM lets you just gain 4 ECL without doing anything to gimp you or to buff your party members is up to your particular table.

Polymorph can't apply templates, so this wouldn't work. As someonenoone11 mentioned, wish can be used to straight up give yourself a template, or even full on change your race, however there are some limitations.

Savage Species has rules for using wish to change race. Its really simple, replace your race with the race you want. So if you turn yourself from human to aasimar, subtract 1 character level, remove your human bonus feat and extra skill points, turn your type to outsider, etc.

There should be no reason why wish can't grant you half-celestial.

AvatarVecna's method is actually dispellable, so it's not really "permanent", it just lasts permanently.

edit: Note that this is all Wish, NOT Miracle. For Miracle you gotta beg your DM to let you do what you want because all the fancy stuff Wish does is not listed in Miracle's spell description.

That's not quite true, that's how the regular rituals work, wish is a bit more finicky, and comes with some level of uncertainty. The given example for wish is that the caster needs to roll a spellcraft check for each ability to be gained, and for each point above 20 that the spellcaster achieved, there is a 5% chance that the ability being rolled on is attained, this process is then repeated for each ability. Spells or abilities that increase a single skill check won't help here, but spellcraft isn't particularly hard to optimize, and being able to get a 40 without even trying is definitely possible, but as mentioned, this is just the example. If you're playing in a mid to high op game (definitely not the kind of games 3.0 designers had mind when they wrote their books), then a higher number, or a wider spread per percentage point may be implemented by your DM to prevent risk-free wishing, since high powered wishes like that are supposed to come with risks and downsides.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the player's paying 5,000 XP to get a template, I say humor them.

[Crake]

If the player's paying 5,000 XP to get a template, I say humor them.

Well, after level 5, even a +1 LA template is worth more than 5000xp, unless you're using LA buyoff, at which point a +1 LA template is worth 3000xp, but a +2 LA template is worth 16,000xp, a +3 LA template is worth 45,000xp, and a +4LA template isn't even possible to be paid of pre-epic, and that's all assuming no racial HD.

[RoboEmperor]

That's not quite true, that's how the regular rituals work, wish is a bit more finicky, and comes with some level of uncertainty. The given example for wish is that the caster needs to roll a spellcraft check for each ability to be gained, and for each point above 20 that the spellcaster achieved, there is a 5% chance that the ability being rolled on is attained, this process is then repeated for each ability. Spells or abilities that increase a single skill check won't help here, but spellcraft isn't particularly hard to optimize, and being able to get a 40 without even trying is definitely possible, but as mentioned, this is just the example. If you're playing in a mid to high op game (definitely not the kind of games 3.0 designers had mind when they wrote their books), then a higher number, or a wider spread per percentage point may be implemented by your DM to prevent risk-free wishing, since high powered wishes like that are supposed to come with risks and downsides.

That's an optional rule. I put it on the same level as the rule saying you need to spend weeks/months downtime to level up.

[Zanos]

Well, after level 5, even a +1 LA template is worth more than 5000xp, unless you're using LA buyoff, at which point a +1 LA template is worth 3000xp, but a +2 LA template is worth 16,000xp, a +3 LA template is worth 45,000xp, and a +4LA template isn't even possible to be paid of pre-epic, and that's all assuming no racial HD.

As far as I'm aware, wishing for a template or race would come with all of it's baggage, including ECL adjustments.

[Crake]

That's an optional rule. I put it on the same level as the rule saying you need to spend weeks/months downtime to level up.

It's not an optional rule, it's an example of how the DM should handle using wish to change races/add templates, since it specifically says that that version if wish definitely falls under "wishing for greater effects" and shouldn't come without substantial risks. As an example, it's certainly not the only way a DM could handle using wish, but it's not an optional rule to include risk, and how the DM handles it should vary from table to table, and group to group.

As far as I'm aware, wishing for a template or race would come with all of it's baggage, including ECL adjustments.

While that's true, unlike the rituals the ECL is added on top of your levels, much like contracting lycanthropy would be, resuling in an ECL boost, while the rituals actually make you lose class levels to maintain the same ECL.