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    Default [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    BRAWLER
    The brawler is much like the barbarian in many ways, and indeed many brawlers come from "barbaric" tribal backgrounds. But there is one major distinction: brawlers, like monks, fight with their fists, elbows, knees, feet, and foreheads. Brawlers are most frequently found around the outskirts of civilization, among savage peoples who have encountered monks and envied their unarmed prowess, but lack the social structure to set aside monasteries for discipline and mental training.

    GAME RULE INFORMATION
    Brawlers have the following game rule statistics.
    Abilities: Strength is crucial for brawlers because of its role in combat. Since brawlers do not wear armour, a high Dexterity is a must. A high Constitution allows a brawler to rage longer. A brawler's Armour Class is further enhanced by Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma (any of the three).
    Alignment: Any nonlawful.
    Hit Die: d10.

    Class Skills
    The brawler's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    THE BRAWLER
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus|Unarmed Damage|AC Bonus

    1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Flurry of blows, illiteracy, rage 1/day, unarmed strike|-2/-2|1d6|+0

    2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Martial arts feat|-1/-1|1d6|+0

    3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Evasion|+0/+0|1d6|+0

    4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Magic fist, rage 2/day|+1/+1|1d8|+0

    5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Uncanny dodge|+2/+2|1d8|+1

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Martial arts feat|+3/+3/-2|1d8|+1

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Damage reduction 1/—|+4/+4/-1|1d8|+1.

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Rage 3/day|+5/+5/+0|1d10|+1

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Improved evasion|+6/+6/+1|1d10|+1

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Chaotic fist, martial arts feat|+7/+7/+2|1d10|+2

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Improved uncanny dodge|+8/+8/+3/-2|1d10|+2

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Rage 4/day|+9/+9/+4/-1|2d6|+2

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Damage reduction 2/—|+10/+10/+5/+1|2d6|+2

    14th|+14/+9/+5|+9|+9|+4|Martial arts feat|+11/+11/+6/+1|2d6|+2

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Mettle|+12/+12/+7/+2|2d6|+3

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Adamantine fist, rage 5/day|+13/+13/+8/+3/-2|2d8|+3

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|Greater rage|+14/+14/+9/+4/-1|2d8|+3

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Martial arts feat|+15/+15/+10/+5/+0|2d8|+3

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Damage reduction 3/—|+16/+16/+11/+6/+1|2d8|+3

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Tireless rage, rage 6/day|+17/+17/+12/+7/+2|2d10|+4[/table]

    Class Features
    All of the following are features of the brawler.
    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with her unarmed strike and with improvised thrown weapons. She is not proficient with any other weapon except her unarmed strike, nor with any armour or shields. She may enhance her unarmed strike with worn weapons such as knuckle-dusters or spiked gauntlets with no penalty for non-proficiency, but, with her hands so weighed down, she cannot strike with a flurry of blows.
    AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmoured and unencumbered, a brawler adds her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC. She must choose one of the three at first level; once chosen, it cannot be changed. At 5th level and every fifth level thereafter, her unencumbered AC bonus rises by +1.
    Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmoured and in a rage, a brawler may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -3 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. A brawler must make a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows, and she may attack only with unarmed strikes.
    Illiteracy: A brawler does not automatically know how to read and write. A brawler may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all the languages she is able to speak.
    Martial Arts Feat: At 2nd level, and at every fourth level thereafter, the brawler gains a bonus martial arts feat. The martial arts feats available to the brawler are summarized in the following table.
    {table=head]Feat|Prerequisites*|Benefit°

    Choke Hold|Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist|A foe pinned for 1 round must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 brawler's level + Dex bonus) or fall unconscious for 1d3 rounds (Oriental Adventures p. 61).

    Circle Kick|Flying Kick, Roundabout Kick|As Great Cleave (see PHB p. 94) with an unarmed strike, but each foe need only be hit, not dropped, in order to grant the next extra attack. The circle kick attempt must be declared before making the first attack.

    Combat Expertise|Int 13+|See PHB p. 92.

    Combat Reflexes|—|See PHB p. 92.

    Defensive Roll|Dex 15+, Mobility|As rogue special ability, PHB p. 51.

    Defensive Strike|Combat Expertise, Dodge|+4 to attack a foe who just attacked and missed (Oriental Adventures p. 62).

    Defensive Throw|Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Trip|Trip the foe against whom the Dodge feat applies with an attack of opportunity, if that foe attacks and misses (Oriental Adventures p. 62)°.

    Deflect Arrows|Dex 13+|See PHB p. 93.

    Dodge|Dex 13+|See PHB p. 93.

    Flying Kick|Power Attack, Skill Focus (jump)|Deal double damage with an unarmed charge (Oriental Adventures p. 62).

    Grappling Block|Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm*|Once per round, make an opposed unarmed attack roll against a foe's weapon (that would otherwise have dealt damage) as an attack of opportunity; if successful, the foe is disarmed (Oriental Adventures p. 63).

    Improved Bull Rush|Power Attack|See PHB p. 95.

    Improved Critical (unarmed strike)|Brawler level 10|See PHB p. 95.

    Improved Disarm|Brawler level 6*|See PHB p. 95°.

    Improved Grapple|—*|See PHB p. 95.

    Improved Initiative|—|See PHB p. 96.

    Improved Overrun|Power Attack|See PHB p. 96.

    Improved Trip|Combat Expertise|See PHB p. 96.

    Lunge|Improved Bull Rush, Str 15+|Gain the benefits of a charge with a 5-foot step (but only on the very next attack); if attack misses, fall prone. This feat can only be used with an unarmed strike, and not in conjunction with a kick-based feat.

    Mobility|Dodge|See PHB p. 98.

    Opportunist|Combat Reflexes|As rogue special ability, PHB p. 51°.

    Power Attack|Str 13+|See PHB p. 98.

    Prone Attack|Dex 15+, Mobility, Skill Focus (tumble)|Attack from a prone position without penalty, and get up as a free action if successful (Oriental Adventures p. 65)°.

    Roundabout Kick|Power Attack, Str 15+|Free unarmed attack after a successful critical hit (Oriental Adventures p. 65).

    Skill Focus (balance)|—|See PHB p. 100.

    Skill Focus (jump)|—|See PHB p. 100.

    Skill Focus (tumble)|—|See PHB p. 100.

    Snatch Arrows|Deflect Arrows, Dex 15+|See PHB p. 100.

    Spring Attack|Brawler level 6, Mobility|See PHB p. 100°.

    Stunning Fist|—*|See PHB p. 101.

    Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)|—|See PHB p. 102.

    Whirlwind Attack|Combat Expertise, Spring Attack|See PHB p. 102.[/table]*The brawler need not have this feat's usual prerequisites to take it as a bonus martial arts feat.
    °This bonus martial arts feat can only be used with unarmed attacks.
    Rage (Ex): A brawler can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day, as indicated on the table. In a rage, she temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but takes a -2 penalty to Armour Class. She may attack with a flurry of blows only while in a rage. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the brawler's (newly improved) Constitution modifier. At the end of her rage, the brawler loses the rage modifiers and becomes fatigued.
    A brawler's rage imposes limits on skill use similar to a barbarian's, except that the brawler can use Tumble but not Ride. Additionally, while in a rage, she loses any proficiency with weapons (other than improvised thrown weapons and unarmed strikes).
    If the brawler takes a level in another class that grants rage (such as barbarian), her levels from both classes stack for the purposes of determining the number of times per day she may rage — but not for other benefits such as greater rage or tireless rage. All applicable skill and proficiency penalties from both classes apply every time the multiclass brawler rages.
    Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. None of her attacks are considered off-hand attacks. She deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on the table.
    Evasion (Ex): If a brawler of 3rd level or higher makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage while wearing no armour, she instead takes no damage.
    Magic Fist (Su): At 4th level and higher, a brawler's unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.
    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a brawler retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.
    Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a brawler gains the ability to shrug off some damage from each blow or attack. This damage reduction rises by 1 point at 13th level, and again at 19th level.
    Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level and higher, a brawler wearing no armour takes only half damage on even an unsuccessful Reflex save against attacks to which her Evasion ability applies.
    Chaotic Fist (Su): At 10th level and higher, a brawler's unarmed attacks are treated as chaotic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. If the brawler is not chaotic, there is a 20% chance each round that this ability will not apply.
    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A brawler of 11th level or higher cannot be flanked, except by a rogue with 4 more levels than she has brawler levels.
    Mettle (Ex): If a brawler of 15th level or higher makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce an attack's effect but not negate it, she takes no damage at all.
    Adamantine Fist (Su): At 16th level and higher, a brawler's unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purposes of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and overcoming hardness.
    Greater Rage (Ex): At 17th level, a brawler's bonuses to Strength and Constitution during her rage each increase to +6, and her morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The AC penalty remains at -2.
    Tireless Rage (Ex): At 20th level, a brawler is no longer fatigued at the end of her rage.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I'm not entirely sure how ki strike fits in with the mindset of the Brawler. Ki traditionally requires mastery of the will and body. Having ki strike and raging in the same class is an oxymoron.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    It seems obvious that ki strike is there for the same reason monks have it mechanically, so they aren't useless against DR opponents. Looks okay to me...

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Looks ok, but it's a little bit too dipworthy. 1 bab, 2 good saves, rage, a feat, higher unarmed damage and flurry of blows? A one level dip in the class is extremely tempting. You should probably spread some of those abilities out more.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Just change the name of ki strike and the fluff and then you have something truly awesome here. A monk type I want to play!

    On a further note, the ability to choose which mental stat benefits you, is extremely powerful in a good way. I love options!
    Last edited by Valairn; 2007-08-10 at 09:39 AM.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I don't know. This class seems to step all over the Barbarian's toes, what with all the rage, DR, and other rage-related things. On top of that, I get this whispering in the back of my skull that says this is a little, how you say, overpowered. A bit, maybe. What I see eseentially, is the taking of the best of both worlds (Barbarian / Monk), to make one Super-world. And that always screams broken (excepting of course, if the two worlds were sadly underpowered in the first place, which is not the case in this situation).

    What really does it for me, is the fact that we're essentially giving the flurry of blows ability to a barbarian. A class which is already rekowned for both hitting and dealing damage with ease. And now you want to let them hit even more?! Yes there's that pesky -2 penalty (at least until level 9, at which point all penalties disappear) but with uber strength, and rage to boot, this thing will be an unbalanced damage-dealing monster. Remeber, the little tidbit about how if a class is obviously way better than other classes, that's usually a sign of imbalance? Well I'd just like to point that part out.

    As for what you could do to even things out a bit, maybe we could reduce its HD to a d10? Or decrease the number of times per day he can rage, or maybe back down with the Mighty/Tireless features? All I'm saying is that it seems to be a bit too much. But hey, just my opinon.
    Last edited by FireSpark; 2007-08-10 at 10:23 AM.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Hmmm... I too think that this might be a tad overpowered. Here are some suggestions.

    I'd say, for starters, don't have as many bonus feats. That's a LOT of bonus feats, on top of a lot of class features.

    Actually, I'd cut down on the class feautres as well. Basically, since he does BOTH Rage and Flurry of Blows/Unarmed combat, he should progress more slowly than either of the more focused classes (Barbarian and Monk respectively). Right now, I'm seeing a lot of benefits of taking this, over either of the original classes and not a lot of drawback.

    Also, I'm assuming Flurry of Blows requires no armor, just as it does for a Monk. Are any of the other class features restricted by use of armor or weapons? If this class is going to be as strong as it looks, it needs to have som restrictions so you don't just have characters putting on +17 pwning gauntlets of awesomeness to further boost their flurry damage.

    Still, I LOVE the concept. I don't know that I've seen a base class that really coverst the unarmed brawler concept for D&D (one or two PrCs, but no Base Classes). Good job!
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Um, I don't see how this is any different from a gestalt monk20/barbarian20 without a few of the less useful features that no-one would really miss (trap sense, tongue of the sun and moon, etc.). Really way too overpowered.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I generally agree with what's been said, both Rage and Flurry is a bit too much. I would cut the Rage to half the barbarian's progression.

    For proficiencies, all Simple weapons. This guy needs to be able to hit with brass knuckles. I would suggest allowing a "Flurry" with unarmed strike, gauntlet, club, sap, dagger, quarterstaff, and improvised weapons.

    Armor proficiency - I'd say either light or light and medium. No shield.

    With ki strike, maybe rename it "sucker punch?"
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_fenix View Post
    Um, I don't see how this is any different from a gestalt monk20/barbarian20 without a few of the less useful features that no-one would really miss (trap sense, tongue of the sun and moon, etc.). Really way too overpowered.
    No no, this is better than a gestalt monk/barbarian. Monks and barbarians have incompatible alignments.

    I thought this was a little overpowered when I first saw it, but I've changed my mind. This is broken. Right now I'm dreaming of finding a gullible open minded DM as insane race/class combos dance through my head. If this was allowed in a campaign, no one could afford to not take at least two levels. Nothing else gives you evasion and uncanny dodge in two levels. The massive skill points, fat d12s, and the rest makes this class irresistible.

    Fixing suggestions:
    •d10 hps
    •4+ int skills
    •Cut the martial arts feats
    •Bump all the Barbarian Rage & damage reduction stuff 50% farther down (So it ends with Indomitable will at L20
    •Bump evasion and improved evasion up a level to L3 and L10.
    •Bump the Ki Strikes to L5, L12, and L20
    •Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Last edited by Psionic Dog; 2007-08-10 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I'll also say that this is a very good example of giving a class something at each level. Good job on that!

    Depending on what the "Martial Arts" feats are, they might or might not need culling. Personally I'd go with a selection of street-fighting sorts of maneuvers. Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Stunning Fist, Endurance, Diehard, Improved Feint, Blind-Fight, Toughness, Power Attack, and Improved Initiative come to mind as a possible list to select from.

    I'd substitute "Skill Focus (Intimidate)" for the first-level martial arts feat.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    dude u just did a gersalt monk/barbian to make the brawler and its is way to dip worth. i think its a little to overpowered and i do not say that much.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    OK, I've changed a few things — rage is more limited, I've dropped the hit die and skill points as recommended, the flurry of blows takes a +3 penalty and never loses it, nor do you ever get another extra attack. Oh, and Indomitable Will is gone and replaced by Mettle, which applies to a very limited range of attacks. Not to mention that the unarmed damage has dropped a die size.

    Probably still too overpowered, am I right? Suggestions welcome.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Actually, it looks reasonably balanced now. (Mettle was a nice touch by the way.) HP, skills, unarmed attacks, etc all look good too. However, now that you've dropped unarmed strike damage, the brawler really needs some weapon proficiency. Every base class is proficient with something, so I'd give the brawler either simple weapon proficiency, or a short list, say: club, great club, dart, dagger, punching dagger, and spiked gauntlet.

    The only thing I would consider reducing would be the martial art feats. Fighters gain a feat every 2nd level. Right now the brawler gets one every 3rd. If you want to balance against PH1 classes you may want to back off to a feat every 4 levels, but I've heard that the base classes in the new books are all slightly stronger, so the brawler may need those feats to compete with them.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Verry Kewl ! I dig this class, i may try and convince my gm to allow me to play one in the near future

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Quote Originally Posted by Psionic Dog View Post
    Actually, it looks reasonably balanced now. (Mettle was a nice touch by the way.) HP, skills, unarmed attacks, etc all look good too. However, now that you've dropped unarmed strike damage, the brawler really needs some weapon proficiency. Every base class is proficient with something, so I'd give the brawler either simple weapon proficiency, or a short list, say: club, great club, dart, dagger, punching dagger, and spiked gauntlet.

    The only thing I would consider reducing would be the martial art feats. Fighters gain a feat every 2nd level. Right now the brawler gets one every 3rd. If you want to balance against PH1 classes you may want to back off to a feat every 4 levels, but I've heard that the base classes in the new books are all slightly stronger, so the brawler may need those feats to compete with them.
    You don't think the martial arts feats might balance the lack of weaponry? Or shall I hike up the strike damage a little again? I want the brawler to be an unarmed warrior, not a supposedly-unarmed-but-who'd-be-dumb-enough-to-drop-the-special-weapons warrior like the monk.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Quote Originally Posted by NakedCelt View Post
    You don't think the martial arts feats might balance the lack of weaponry? Or shall I hike up the strike damage a little again? I want the brawler to be an unarmed warrior, not a supposedly-unarmed-but-who'd-be-dumb-enough-to-drop-the-special-weapons warrior like the monk.
    Oh, I hadn't though of it that way. I was imagining the concept was for a berserk brawler who could mix things up with his fists second only to monks. While the brawler will definitely be leaving the armor at home, not giving the him weapon proficiency will not stop him. One dip into Fighter or Ranger gives him weapons of choice, or a feat at 1st level like Simple Weapon Proficiency or Marital/Exotic Wep Proficiency would give the brawler weapon(s) without a dip. With this in mind it seamed best to allow the brawler some of the worst weapons at the start. Also, the brawler has to have something for a ranged attack.

    If you want something that will never use a weapon, forget about it. Only with a druid-like restriction would you have a hope of keeping the brawler unarmed.

    Suggestions:
    •Let the brawler have a few dinky weapons.
    •Put the unarmed strike back up to monk standards, and reduce the martial art feats to every 4th, or even every 6th.

    Yes, martial arts helps balance the lack of weapons, but if the brawler should get weapon proficiency somewhere all but 4 could help his armed combat. (6 if you say grappling doesn't help armed combat)

    Right now if I played a Brawler, I'd grab simple weapon proficiency, and go everywhere with a spear and Light Crossbow. When I get Stunning Fist and Flying kick, I'd start combat with a charge using both, but would never use a flurry until 8th (or 12th if I had a sufficiently enchanted spear)

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Quote Originally Posted by Psionic Dog View Post
    Right now if I played a Brawler, I'd grab simple weapon proficiency, and go everywhere with a spear and Light Crossbow. When I get Stunning Fist and Flying kick, I'd start combat with a charge using both, but would never use a flurry until 8th (or 12th if I had a sufficiently enchanted spear)
    You don't think the fact that you lose any weapon proficiency while in a rage would make you think twice? Without rage, the brawler isn't much more than a fighter with slower feat progression.

    But good call on the ranged weapons thing. I may have to allow the brawler to improvise throwing weapons from whatever she finds to hand... let me think about it.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I am so being a brawler for my next character, my DM is very open minded and knows this is the kind of class perfect for my playing type. Im thinking big barbarian man wearing a bear as a coat beating up a bar of mercs with his fists, maybe throwing beer bottles as the people on the sidelines, then sitting at the only stool left at the front and finishing his drink.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Quote Originally Posted by skeeter_dan View Post
    I'm not entirely sure how ki strike fits in with the mindset of the Brawler. Ki traditionally requires mastery of the will and body. Having ki strike and raging in the same class is an oxymoron.
    Then call it focused fury or something like that if that makes it feel better. But keep the same effect. Calling it ki strike means players already know (or can quickly look up) exactly how it works and what it does. It's a simplicity thing.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I like the idea of losing all weapon proficiencies while in a rage. It's brilliant.
    As for Int to AC: Makes a whole lot of sense, it's logical, but it's powerful! Skill points, skill checks AND armor class is just so... Well, you know how it is. Most barbs are highly intelligent ugly brutes, as it is, as they are a more than moderately skill-dependant class.

    As for ki-strike: Qi is energy. Focus, of a sort, which you will instinctively use when you get the hang of fighting. I'd say you can freely use it while raging. Actually, raging people, mad with anger, fear, terror or anything the like usually seem a lot stronger and toucher, being able to punch through practically anything. So I'd say it makes sense to have qi-charged blows in rage. Perhaps to balance out, you could even say that the brawler only gets qi-strike while in rage.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    IMPROVISED THROWING WEAPON PROFICIENCY
    A brawler may treat any weapon as a throwing weapon (see DMG p. 226), and throw it without a non-proficiency penalty — even weapons with which she has no proficiency. Additionally, she may similarly treat any other object as a throwing weapon, provided it falls within certain limits of size and weight. If the object is a specially designed throwing weapon such as a shortspear or a light hammer, use its usual range increment (see PHB pp. 116–117). Otherwise, the range increment is 10 ft.
    Weapon-specific feats such as Improved Critical or Weapon Focus cannot be applied to improvised throwing weapons.

    Size and Weight Restrictions
    Note: For the purposes of the following rules, dwarves and creatures of dwarf-like proportions, such as azers, bralani, and derro, are treated as Small rather than Medium; and centaurs and creatures of centaur-like proportions, such as zelekhuts, are treated as Medium rather than Large.
    An object in the brawler's square weighing up to 1/3 the brawler's maximum light load (see PHB p. 162), and at least two size categories smaller than the brawler, may be picked up as a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity and thrown one-handed. Apply the brawler's Strength modifier to damage as normal. A one-handed throw may be made as part of a full attack, but not as part of a flurry of blows. A brawler with the Quick Scoop feat (see below) can pick up such an object with a free action instead of a move action.
    An object in the brawler's square weighing up to 2/3 the brawler's maximum light load, and at least one size category smaller than the brawler, may be picked up as a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity and thrown two-handed as a standard action. Apply 1 1/2 the brawler's Strength modifier to damage. A two-handed throw may not be made as part of a full attack. The Quick Scoop feat does not apply to objects thrown two-handed.
    Long, narrow objects such as poles, quarterstaffs, and spears are always thrown one-handed (and thus never receive 1 1/2 the brawler's Strength modifier to damage). For determining size restrictions, they are treated as one size category smaller than they really are. Despite the one-handed throw, if such an object is larger than 1/3 the brawler's maximum light load, it cannot be thrown as part of a full attack, nor be picked up with a quick scoop.
    A brawler may also throw an object that is up to her maximum light load, and at least one size category smaller than herself, as a full-circle throw. Such an object must be picked up as a move action and thrown two-handed on the next round as a full-round action. The brawler swings the object in a complete circle before letting go; thus, all squares surrounding the brawler must be free of obstructions, and neither the brawler nor any surrounding squares may be threatened by an enemy.
    A full-circle throw is harder than a normal throwing action. The brawler must first make a Dexterity check (DC 12) to ensure she throws the object in the right direction. If she fails the check by less than 5, roll 1d3. On a roll of 3, the object flies toward the target, passing through the square adjacent to the brawler's square and directly between her and the target. On a roll of 1 or 2, the object instead travels on a line passing through the square to the left or right of the square directly between the brawler and the target.
    If the brawler fails the Dexterity check by 5 or more, roll 1d8. On a roll of 8, the object flies directly toward the target, passing through the square adjacent to the brawler's square and directly between her and the target. On a roll of 1 to 7, it flies through any of the other seven squares surrounding the brawler's square (count clockwise from the target square).
    If she throws in the right direction, the brawler then makes a normal ranged attack to hit the target. On a miss, treat the object as a splash weapon (see PHB p. 158). If the brawler does not throw in the right direction, the throw is treated as an (automatically missed) splash weapon attack targeting the square in the direction of the throw at the same distance from the brawler as the target.
    After making a full-circle throw, the brawler must make a Balance check (DC 25) or become disoriented and lose her Dexterity modifier to AC for one round, even if she has uncanny dodge.
    On a successful full-circle throw, apply 2 x the brawler's Strength modifier to damage.
    With any throw, if the thrown object takes up a space as large or larger than the target's, the target is entitled to a Reflex save (DC 15) for half damage.

    Damage
    Thrown weapons deal damage as normal weapons of their type, but threaten a critical hit only on a natural roll of 20. Objects that are not weapons deal damage according to their weight. If the object has a sharp edge, it deals slashing damage; if it has sharp points but no sharp edge, it deals piercing damage; otherwise, it deals bludgeoning damage. If it is on fire, it deals an additional 1d4 of fire damage.
    The damage an object can deal depends on both its weight and the thrower's Strength score. To determine damage, find both on the table below, and use whichever is lower.
    {table=head]Weight|Strength score|Maximum damage dealt (+ Str modifier)

    < 1 lb.|—|—

    1 lb.|1|1d3

    2–3 lb.|2|1d4

    4–6 lb.|3–4|1d6

    7–12 lb.|5–8|1d8

    13–24 lb.|9–13|2d6

    25–48 lb.|14–18|2d8

    49–96 lb.|19–23|4d6

    97–192 lb.|24–28|4d8

    ||etc.[/table]
    Weapons and other objects (such as tools) that are designed to withstand impact forces take no damage on impact. Other objects take damage equal to 1d6 per range increment thrown + brawler's Str modifier to damage (use the same Str modifier that you use to determine the damage to the target), regardless of whether they strike or miss the target. Apply hardness as normal.

    Additional Bonus Martial Arts Feats
    A brawler may take any of the following as martial arts feats instead of those on the table in the post above.
    {table=head]Feat|Prerequisites|Benefit

    Dwarf Toss|Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Full-Circle Throw|Throw allies into battle.

    Improved Full-Circle Throw|Dex 15+, Mobility, Skill Focus (balance)|Never throw in the wrong direction.

    Melee Throw|Power Attack|A throw is treated as a melee attack in all respects (including range) except that the weapon is no longer in the thrower's possession afterwards; it falls to the ground in the target's square, or is lodged in the target's body.

    Quick Scoop|Improved Initiative|Pick up an object one-handed as a free action.[/table]

    Throwing Other Characters
    Note: For the purposes of suitability for being thrown (see Size and Weight Restrictions, above), dwarves and creatures of dwarf-like proportions, such as azers, bralani, and derro, are treated as Small rather than Medium.
    A helpless character may be thrown using the same rules as for an object. The thrown character takes damage equal to 1d6 per range implement + brawler's Str modifier, as an object not designed to withstand impact forces.
    A character who is not helpless must be pinned before being thrown. When the throw attempt is made, the character is entitled to an attack of opportunity against the brawler; if it hits, the brawler releases him. After the throw is made, the thrown character may make a Reflex save (DC = the brawler's attack roll) to miss the target deliberately (treat as a missed attack roll). Upon landing, the thrown character falls prone and takes damage equal to 1d6 per range implement + brawler's Str modifier, as an object not designed to withstand impact forces, but is entitled to a Reflex save (DC 20) for half damage.
    If the brawler has the Dwarf Toss feat, she may throw a willing character into battle. The thrown character treats the throw as a charge (using his own Str modifier to damage or the brawler's Str modifier for the throw, whichever is higher). If either the throw or the charge attack misses, the thrown character falls prone in the target space and takes damage as an object not designed to withstand impact forces (Reflex DC 25 half). If the charge attack hits and deals damage, the thrown character lands on his feet in the target's space; treat as a bull rush or overrun attempt (thrown character's choice).

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I think this class is over powered, its pretty much a monk witch is already pretty powerful, but better in almost every way. They get Damage reduction and rage.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    You know you have just built a great Barbarian/Fighter/Monk Multiclass Class, without having to go through the fuss of taking all the extra levels...

    I'd say a warrior/rogue with the Weapon Proficiency (Improvised Weapon) feat does the job pretty well, without being above your average brawler, or extremly over powered.

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Seriously not trying to be a downer here, but I believe that even with all of your edits (and those were indeed well made changes) this class is still too far into the powerful side of things.

    First off, the improvised weapons thing has needed to exist for some time. There are already existing rules for such things (like in the Drunken Master prestige class). Those are (purposely I believe) not based on the weight of the object directly for its damage output, but rather by size. The problem is that if you have a large player who wants to play a brawler, the damage possibilities suddenly become a little obscene. Given a few spells, maybe a few items, or even just some magic strength equipment, a raging large brawler could pick up some seriously huge objects. Given the common nature of boulders, safes, stairwells and horses (yeah, think of the damage on that one) this class is more capable of putting out damage than a wizard all hopped up on maximized scorching rays. Also be wary of the three level dip in hulking hurler for such a character. 'Tis a scary thought indeed.

    Secondly, I honestly think you need to rethink the DR piercing abilities. I am sorry, I know that its hard to come up with a way for an unarmed fighter to make it through DR without it, (I know, I've been through trying to find a way, and it leaves a gaping hole in my Beast class). Perhaps, we as a community should come up with standard rules for gauntlets, or gloves, or a freakin' ring that allows someone to apply a type of DR piercing damage to his unarmed strikes.

    Still...I like the concept of a non-holy unarmed combatant. It just seems to be that this combination with a Barbarian isn't the solution. I think I sat here staring in fear and wonder at the +17/+17/+12/+7/+2, flurry of blows at 2d10 damage while raging at +6 strength (thus basically at least attacking at +20/+20/+15/+10/+5, assuming no prior strength bonus) and hurling large objects at me. My rogue blood trembles at being greatly outdamaged by someone who has no need to make an effort to do the damage. Sorry, but there is just too much raw power here for me. Straight up barbarians have pounded me into the ground on a few too many occasions, and the idea of someone with all their class features out running my horse to beat me up just seems a little too powerful.
    Last edited by Volin; 2007-08-23 at 01:13 PM.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Quote Originally Posted by Volin View Post
    Straight up barbarians have pounded me into the ground on a few too many occasions, and the idea of someone with all their class features out running my horse to beat me up just seems a little too powerful.
    Good point — I think I may remove Fast Movement in the very near future.

    I don't want to remove weight restrictions on the Improvised Weapons thing, because it just plain doesn't make sense that an empty barrel would do the same damage (and be just as hard to heave around) as a full one. On the other hand, in trying to figure out some sensible rules, I have discovered that whoever wrote the core rules had no idea of basic physics.

    A greatsword's weight is listed in the PHB as 8 lb. I dug out my old physics textbook, did a back-of-an-envelope calculation, and found that a five-foot iron greatsword that light would have an average diameter, along its length, of about a quarter of an inch. An aluminium greatsword would be not quite half an inch. My cat weighs more than a PHB greatsword.

    I thought about taking the Giants' stone-throwing ability as a starting-point, then found that that was completely up the wop, even if you didn't have a physics textbook. Huge giants, according to the MM, can throw Medium rocks. Medium rocks, according (again) to the MM, weigh 60 to 80 lb. According to the PHB, you can lift a weight equal to your maximum load over your head. 80 lb. is the maximum load for a Medium biped of Strength 8.

    Ladies and gentlemen, picture, if you will, a weaker-than-average human lifting a rock as large as himself over his head.

    Something certainly needs to be fixed, but it's not just my new class.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Lol, I love the greatsword thing!

    No, you're right, something is certainly wrong with the base rules on that. If I may make a suggestion on the throwing thing...
    Keep in mind, the heavier something is, the harder it's going to be to toss. Therefore aiming it at a specific place will be harder. I would just start to have the damage begin to flatline the higher it goes, because you can only so effectively hurl a 400 pound bench where it counts more than a 100 pound weight.

    You also might consider having the truly high weight items attacking a square. That balances out the damage more, thanks to evasion and such. Anyway, just some thoughts.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    OK, I've made some more edits to both posts. I haven't done anything to fix the core rules' weight-related brain-farts, though...

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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    Quote Originally Posted by NakedCelt View Post
    OK, I've made some more edits to both posts. I haven't done anything to fix the core rules' weight-related brain-farts, though...
    a really cool class. I tried to compare to a barbarian with greatsword / mithril full plate and I think it is not overpowered. I would allow it as GM, almost.

    In my mind there is this ugly picture of a guy towing donkeys loaded with heavy stuff so he can throw the load and finally the the donkeys in combat. Maybe you could drop a bit of realism for the sake of game balance and tune down the progression in your maximum damage dealt table? An alternative would be to always allow a reflex save against an improvised thrown weapon that deals more than 2d8 damage (turn the hit into a glancing blow). You could always make improvised thrown weapons an optional rule and instead give the brawler the brutal throw feat from Complete Adventurer. Together with power throw it will allow to deal a lot of damage with no additional rules.
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    Default Re: [Base class] You don't have to be a moron, but it helps

    I think that this class rocks.

    Seriously. This class is pretty nice. It is the monk, only, you know... good.

    I'm sorry if you disagree, but, IMO, the monk is pretty much trash. Anyone can whip on the monk. He can't hold his own in CR equivalent monsters.
    At level 16, the monk now can hit stuff that has DR Big number/Adamantine. Yay. Now before you say that this applies to the brawler, go back and take a look at that weapon proficiency list. Spiked Gauntlets. I.E. Adamantine +5 ________ Spiked Gauntlets. Anyway, there 4 CR 16 monsters in the D20 SRD that I can find. Eh, ok. So, since a Core Class should be able to go 50/50 with a challenge of its own level, he should either be able to go 50/50 with all of them, or, flat out win against two, and lose hard to the other Two.

    The Horned Devil has Regeneration Good and Silver, Flight, Summoning, and three chain attacks with a nasty stun. If the horned devil attacks first, the monk is toast.

    The monk's best attack (unarmed attack) is pretty much worthless due to the Regeneration 10 vs Non good and silver attacks. With a generous 20 strength at level 16 for a class that almost defines MAD, you average 20 damage a round if EVERY ATTACK HITS. And versus his AC of 35 (39 if you are good), I'm sure you can imagine how likely that is. 9 rounds of standing there full attacking. If you are lucky, he will laugh himself to death.
    A +5 silver, holy, keen Kama is a much better bet. But still, he can easily laugh at least three rounds of your attacks, and by then, you will have probably failed your save versus his Permastun.

    Now, if your Brawler knows he is going to be fighting a horned devil, he should probably get 5 silver, returning, holy xxxxxxxxx, where xxxxxxx is a non-breakable object. The Horned Devil will last about two rounds of returning, holy chairs, or whatever. You got a decent chance of getting through to get tow rounds off on him, which might drop him. But it isnt 50%.

    Verdict: Lose, sans rolls that will make people check your dice for shaving and such. Mr. Brawler has a shot, but odds are he's going down.

    Number two: Planetar

    Eh, its a Good Outsider, so most people won't end up fighting one, but still, this guy will make mincemeat out of a monk.

    First, he can fly faster than you can run, so you probably won't get into melee unless he wants you to.
    Second, Save or lose make non-casters sad. He has at least two if you rip him right out of the MM. Also, once per day, he can use waves of exhaustion, which make people who have to hit stuff for a living sad.
    And Summon Monster IX, so he fly rings around you and laugh while you try to fight a Leonal. If you win, he can probably some and poke you to death. Or just use those nifty save or lose spells.

    Verdict: Lose, flat out lose. To be fair though, the Brawler would also lose, so just keep that in mind.

    Number Three: Nightwalker. Wow. Just take a look at this guy and tell me that he can't completely own a Monk. Again though, Mr. "Overpowered" Brawler loses too...

    Verdict: Lose.

    Number Four: Greater stone golem will hit on pretty much everything but a Nat one. With two attacks (Unless the monk is doing some Silly Spring Attacking) that averages to about 62 damage per round. Mr. Monk gets smacked down in 4 rounds, max. Mr. Monk on the other hand needs to hit about 25 times. And beat AC 27. If he decides to prolong the fight by spring attacking, he gets to live until hit 4 or 5 times.

    On the other hand, the Brawler gets more attacks that hit, more damaging attacks since he can use the +5 __________ gauntlets and rage, more HP, and has DR to take some of the hurt off of the swings.

    In short, I'd give him 75% chance of coming out on top.

    Verdict: Monk go splat, but Brawler shines.

    Huh. At the end of this, the monk lost all of his fights, while the Brawler came out with one iffy, two loss, and one probable win.

    It seems that the Brawler is more balanced against the core monsters than the monk...

    So, people are right. The Brawler is better than a Monk. And so is a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Barbarian, etc. I think that this should replace the monk. It may not have been intended to, but I think that this should replace the monk.

    Imo, you could bump him back up to D12 hit dice, just to be safe. After all, his armor is gonna be kinda low for a front line fighter.

    *Disclaimer* This is my opinion. Of course, I think it's right, though, but feel free to talk about how a monk could win.
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