OOTS #1091 - The Discussion Thread

[Thorongil]

Besides the possibility of Bloodfeast being advanced, he might have a couple extra tricks up his sleeve (scales?) due to the combat training he had in Tarquin's Dino-corps. Not sure how that'd impact the CR, but so long as we're listing details...

Not to mention potions and buffs that may or may not be received from V.

But I doubt the plan involves Bloodfeast serving as a straight meat shield. Keep that card in your back pocket until one of the lesser vampires (who may not know the little lizard is actually a bulldozer with teeth) is separated/vulnerable.

EDIT: I sense a "two words" joke is imminent, with Sneak Attack being upstaged by Dispel Magic.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Order won that fight, though. Why is that example a cause to be pessimistic?

Was that your impression? My linking to a joke by Roy is pessimism? (Maybe I should have included a smilie to signal humorous intent?)

I guess other people have figured out the origin, but I for one was thinking of Mike Tyson's "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."

Very much on point.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...Belkar called it his bag of holding. Are you suggesting he simply calls it that, even though it's a regular burlap sack?

Well, yeah. It's a bag for holding stuff.

...I am now picturing Elan attempting to seduce that female vampire cleric and use his garlic breath on it.

Wouldn't be the first time.
Y-yes it would! *tries to hide link from Haley*
Sweetie, I was there.

A. I think most of the order would be willing to sacrifice a dinosaur to save the entire world.

I wouldn't!
Neither would I! Dinos are awesome!
Let's take a vote. I'm fine with it.
Sorry, sweetie, but all the dinosaurs in the world aren't worth everything else in the world.
Must we wait for Belkar to drop Bloodfeast?
That's two to—
Nay.
...You're not a member of the party.
Aw.

I guess other people have figured out the origin, but I for one was thinking of Mike Tyson's "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."

I knew this would come in handy someday...

Spoiler

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[AeonsShadow]

hmm, Mindblank would PROBABLY be most useful on Belkar considering his past interactions with mind control. Plus he seems like he would be the most dangerous one to have under the enemy's control.

[Keltest]

hmm, Mindblank would PROBABLY be most useful on Belkar considering his past interactions with mind control. Plus he seems like he would be the most dangerous one to have under the enemy's control.

Belkar has an item that protects him from mind control already.

[alwaysbebatman]

Specifically, he has a vest that gives +5 to ALL his saves. Avoiding Dominate is only one of the ways that could come in handy.

It should be kept in mind that Belkar's the only member of the party that was shopping with Vampire fighting in mind the last time they had access to shops.

[goodpeople25]

Specifically, he has a vest that gives +5 to ALL his saves. Avoiding Dominate is only one of the ways that could come in handy.

It should be kept in mind that Belkar's the only member of the party that was shopping with Vampire fighting in mind the last time they had access to shops.

It's a +3 actually and I don't really think that's the item referred to.

[alwaysbebatman]

It's a +3 actually and I don't really think that's the item referred to.

Yeah, you're right, now that I look at the RAW on Protection from Evil, it COMPLETELY blocks mind altering effects. Unless he passes the ring clasp on to a teammate (on account of the burning) it makes the vest pretty superfluous.

[Jasdoif]

And I seem to recall there being rules about NPC CR being their ECL but I can't find those, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If the NPC in question has no racial hit dice, all its class levels are in PC classes, and has no racial/template level adjustment or modifiers to its CR, that's true. (CR calculations can get fairly involved....) Since the HPoH meets those first two criteria, his CR is his character level +2 (the CR adjustment from the vampire template) and his ECL is his character level +8 (the level adjustment from the vampire template).

[georgie_leech]

If the NPC in question has no racial hit dice, all its class levels are in PC classes, and has no racial/template level adjustment or modifiers to its CR, that's true. (CR calculations can get fairly involved....) Since the HPoH meets those first two criteria, his CR is his character level +2 (the CR adjustment from the vampire template) and his ECL is his character level +8 (the level adjustment from the vampire template).

That sounds right. Do you know where that's printed so I can properly reference it the next time?

[Jasdoif]

That sounds right. Do you know where that's printed so I can properly reference it the next time?

I think I just stumbled upon what you were referencing in the DMG; it says "An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to the NPC's level" there on page 37 as the simplest case for an NPC. You'd apply the things I linked above (which are also in Chapter 4 in the Monster Manual) to account for templates and stuff after that, though.

[b_jonas]

I agree that Bloodfeast won't be too powerful in a battle. That wasn't the goal. The reason why the Empire of Blood kept a dinosaur is to look awesome for the spectators in the circus. Even this way, he's still powerful enough to eat any number of low-level gladiators, which is the only power needed, and the top matches (like the one between Roy and the Champ) are interesting enough that they don't need an extra dinosaur. I don't think they even trained Bloodfeast, for that would just make him more dangerous for the guards. In fact, I suspect the keepers may have deliberately reduced his fighting capacity in some invisible way, like cutting muscles, to make it easier to handle.

And as for the second Mind Blank, my guess is that Vaarsuvius will have to cast it on herself after the first one is dispelled.

[8BitNinja]

Really, I thought he was playing his lute loot luit.

We all know its written lewt.

What's that? People don't play Runescape anymore?

[Ruck]

Was that your impression? My linking to a joke by Roy is pessimism? (Maybe I should have included a smilie to signal humorous intent?)

Well, Roy was being darkly humorous with it, but it's not really clear he didn't think they were doomed. So I wasn't sure.

[alwaysbebatman]

I think when people do CR comparisons with Bloodfeast versus a vampire, that's kind of missing the point. Of course an Allosaurus is no match for any but maybe the weakest Vampire in a straight up fight, but that's not how Belkar would use him. If the opportune moment arises that the sudden appearance of a giant Allosaurus would give a momentary tactical advantage, that's when it's time to hit Bloodfeast with Dispel Magic.

Which might not make sense in this fight just because of close quarters. But on the other hand, why make such a point of showing where he would be if he's not going to come into play? Chekhov's Dino...

[ChillerInstinct]

Wait... WHAT?

A Wizard's ONLY good saves are Will saves, and when Durkon made that observation V had been long separated from the party.

You're right, my bad. >_>

Still, my point is, trying to neutralize V is probably the Vamps' best shot. If they can turn hir, all the better for them.

[The MunchKING]

You're right, my bad. >_>

Still, my point is, trying to neutralize V is probably the Vamps' best shot. If they can turn hir, all the better for them.

Oh if they CAN, sure. But even without Mindblank that would have been a High risk strategy. If V has even a moderate Wisdom stat, her saves would be +10 from the Class alone.

[kiapet]

Pardon my ignorance here, but do wooden stakes in D&D actually do any damage to vampires outside of as regular piercing weapons?

[Kish]

A wooden stake through the heart is part of destroying a vampire. Any amount of damage from regular piercing weapons will only force the vampire to return to their coffin to regenerate.

[hamishspence]

There's some D20 variant rules that allow for "Buffy-style" in-combat stakings with any wooden piercing weapon - but those are not the standard rules.

[Deepbluediver]

Pardon my ignorance here, but do wooden stakes in D&D actually do any damage to vampires outside of as regular piercing weapons?

The SRD on vampires: "Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed."

So really what it seems to do is to PARALYZE a vampire while not allowing it to disperse into mist and escape. It keeps the body in one place until you can cremate it or submerge it in holy water or something like that.

I think the "wooden stake" part of vampire myths arises from old beliefs that by pinning a body to the ground it would prevent it from rising at night and attacking the living, which over time morphed from one thing into another. And since a wooden stake through the heart would kill most humans, it's not really a "weakness" IMO so much as it is an exception to a vampire's normal damage-avoidance abilities. That being said, the comic also plays a little loose with the rules sometimes, going for an interpretation that's more fun and/or dramatic, so in this case we might see a version of "staking" vampires that instantly destroys them and turns them to dust or something. Maybe.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Originally, the wood stake had to be of one of the 'sacred woods' of various pre-Christian faiths like Druidism (holly, ash or oak). So it's really just another piece of the 'holy stuff hurts them' pastiche.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think the "wooden stake" part of vampire myths arises from old beliefs that by pinning a body to the ground it would prevent it from rising at night and attacking the living, which over time morphed from one thing into another.

That's an amusing mental image.
"I really, really want to get up and attack that annoying kid who keeps playing on my lawn...but someone's nailed my foot to the ground. Ugh, it's not worth the effort."

[Dr.Zero]

Hopefully V prepared some Protection from Evil too. Doesn't last as long but there's more to go around.

I'm still holding out for Chekhov's Neutrality, and that Belkar's Protection From Evil clasp will actually work for him. (I know it's a long shot)

Yeah, you're right, now that I look at the RAW on Protection from Evil, it COMPLETELY blocks mind altering effects. Unless he passes the ring clasp on to a teammate (on account of the burning) it makes the vest pretty superfluous.

While protection from evil seems indeed a good spell to spam in preparation of such a battle, if there is the chance for some last minute actions before they start to fight, it seems to have an interesting drawback: it doesn't block domination, it blocks only the control and only as long as it is active.

So, for example, Durkula might dominate Belkar, even with the clasp active, then run away, waiting for Belkar turning off the clasp, and bang! The same for the spell, if that is cast on Haley and Elan (according to Durkon, the only one who was supposed to be able to consistently resist the domination was Roy, who, indeed, then managed to resist it in the battle at the Godsmoot).

It seems an unlikely outcome, but still a possibility.

[GreatWyrmGold]

While protection from evil seems indeed a good spell to spam in preparation of such a battle, if there is the chance for some last minute actions before they start to fight, it seems to have an interesting drawback: it doesn't block domination, it blocks only the control and only as long as it is active.

So, for example, Durkula might dominate Belkar, even with the clasp active, then run away, waiting for Belkar turning off the clasp, and bang! The same for the spell, if that is cast on Haley and Elan (according to Durkon, the only one who was supposed to be able to consistently resist the domination was Roy, who, indeed, then managed to resist it in the battle at the Godsmoot).

It seems an unlikely outcome, but still a possibility.

I'm pretty sure that's not the intended interpretation...but it's certainly one which opens up some interesting dramatic possibilities. (And possibly comedic—imagine if two members of the Order were dominated, and the others had to switch the Protection-from-Evil clasp between the two of them repeatedly.)

[Deepbluediver]

Originally, the wood stake had to be of one of the 'sacred woods' of various pre-Christian faiths like Druidism (holly, ash or oak). So it's really just another piece of the 'holy stuff hurts them' pastiche.

A lot of the original (Bram Stoker era) vampire stuff is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, too, which is where the bits about holy symbols (crosses) and running water come from- because the vampire is a creature of the devil/evil. Trying to utilize all of that in D&D though kinds of runs into problems.

For example, the holy symbol thing. That works out fine if your party cleric always worships Pelor, but a good chunk of the deities in D&D are outright evil, and several govern death/undead, so would a vampire shy away from those holy symbols too? Seems weird, especially when the comic is currently focused on a vampire CLERIC.
Also, Dracula did have a ton of kick-ass powers but AFAIK there was really only one of him, and even he couldn't create hordes of nigh-unstoppable minions just by nibbling on a few necks.

If anyone wants to utilize vampires in one of their campaigns, I really think you should redo (homebrew) the whole vampire-schtick with the intent of making it work specifically from a game-perspective

[hamishspence]

For example, the holy symbol thing. That works out fine if your party cleric always worships Pelor, but a good chunk of the deities in D&D are outright evil, and several govern death/undead, so would a vampire shy away from those holy symbols too? Seems weird, especially when the comic is currently focused on a vampire CLERIC.

That's what Rebuke Undead is for - undead are intimidated by Evil holy symbols in the same way as they are repelled by Good holy symbols.

Neutral clerics of Neutral deities have to pick one - Turning effect, or Rebuking effect - and it counts as an aligned act anyway regardless of the cleric's deity being Neutral - the cleric is still channelling Good (or Evil) energies.

[Doug Lampert]

Pardon my ignorance here, but do wooden stakes in D&D actually do any damage to vampires outside of as regular piercing weapons?

It's a rules oddity. A stake through the heart works on Vampires in D&D land, but there is no enabling rule explaining how you pull the trick off of putting a stake through the heart.

If I were DMing 3.5, and someone wanted to try it, I'd probably allow that it works if you can otherwise immobilize the vampire and Coup-de-grace it with a wooden stake (I'd probably go ahead and give the vampire an auto-fail on the save); and that it also works if the vampire is reduced to 0 HP by a roll that would have been a critical hit vs. a non-undead and that used a wooden stake as an improvised weapon in the attack.

But AFAIK there's no actual rule on this.

It's similar to the way there are spells and items to fix lost limbs, and no actual way to lose a limb in the first place. D&D has a number of spots where the rules reference something happening that can't actually happen within the rules, these are obvious spots for rule zero.

[Deepbluediver]

That's what Rebuke Undead is for - undead are intimidated by Evil holy symbols in the same way as they are repelled by Good holy symbols.

Neutral clerics of Neutral deities have to pick one - Turning effect, or Rebuking effect - and it counts as an aligned act anyway regardless of the cleric's deity being Neutral - the cleric is still channelling Good (or Evil) energies.

Except it doesn't say that, it just says "[Vampires] recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter."

It doesn't really go into details, not even saying it has to be a holy symbol of a Good deity, which is why it leaves it open to weird interpretations.

It's similar to the way there are spells and items to fix lost limbs, and no actual way to lose a limb in the first place. D&D has a number of spots where the rules reference something happening that can't actually happen within the rules, these are obvious spots for rule zero.

Do you happen to know of any official rules for broken bones? I never could find any, so I think I made up my own at some point.

[Keltest]

Except it doesn't say that, it just says "[Vampires] recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter."

It doesn't really go into details, not even saying it has to be a holy symbol of a Good deity, which is why it leaves it open to weird interpretations.

I like the Dresden Files explanation that vampires are repelled by symbols of faith, and that it doesn't really matter what kind of faith it is as long as its real. Which mixes well with settings where gods are powered by the faith of their worshipers too, since theres already a precedent for it being a fairly powerful type of energy, even if most mortals cant manipulate it directly.