FR Deity for Mystic Theurge gone Lich

[zester]

Hi,

I'm running a Forgotten Realms (v 3.5) campaign for a friend and now I've come across a somewhat difficult question on which I'd like to hear the opinion of you fine folks.

One major villain is Balduin, a former adventurer who fought the Big Evil some centuries ago. Balduin was a human cleric/wizard/mystic theurge then and best friends with a stubborn dwarven inventor from a neighbouring town. They once even traveled to Lantan together so he could learn from the gnomes. When war broke out, Balduin's friend decided to stay and protect Dugmaren's temple while the rest of the town was evacuated. Obviously, he died.

After the war, Balduin (the theurge) was the last surviving member of his adventuring party. In the last decade, he had to commit some major crimes (even blood sacrifices to Malar the Beastlord) for the sake of success. Needless to say that Balduin never was of good alignment to begin with (I think TN, LN works too) and had now become utterly evil (NE or LE). But he was still the least well-known member of his party and the enemy was merely stripped from power instead of destroyed. So Balduin decided to go undercover, make his existence unknown and keep protecting a precious artifact (which both the PCs and the Big Evil will have to retrieve). When he grew old, he even became a lich to continue his watch. His lair is his late dwarven friend's derelict temple, now full with traps and golems. The lich has also become mildly insane: he has mostly adopted his friend's identity, although he's clearly not dwarven, to a point that he even continued the church's chronicles in his late friend's name, protects its library and plays with unfinished inventions. Meanwhile he studies necromancy and experiments with victims both alive and undead to restore his loved ones (including his dwarven friend) to life. When Balduin first meets the PCs, he'll rather try to turn them into unwitting servants for his own dirty work than kill them.

My question is now: Which could be a matching Faerûnian patron deity for Balduin? First, I thought Oghma, which would also fit well in my campaign because a library of Deneir (Oghma's servant) will be a major plot point. Gond might also work. They both accept worship from any alignment and don't seem to necessarily reject the idea of unlife. I could also justify giving Balduin a Knowledge/Artifice-themed domain, which would fit the character well. Another problem with Oghma is that he clearly hates misinformation, but Balduin more or less has (un)lived his whole (un)life by misinformation: first he plotted secretly against a member of his own party, later he forged/altered/erased information on himself from the records, and so on.
This is why I'm not sure about the undead thing and whether he wouldn't have fallen from grace with his patron by now. Might he even have switched his patron? Velsharoon seems to be an obvious answer, but then again Balduin more or less abhors his own undead existence (it's just an inevitable means to continue his work) and sees other undead as abominations which deserve nothing but destruction.

Now, I'm rather clueless: I'd prefer a neutral deity that accepts undead worshippers over a switch to an evil one. A knowledge/artificer theme would be nice, but I could work around that. So what do you think: Should I just go with Gond or might Oghma even accept his misinformation campaign for the "right" reasons?

Thanks in advance to any who read all this. Even more thanks for your thoughts on that matter.

[rferries]

Velsharoon would be the best bet, even if it's the most obvious one as you say. I feel like he should definitely worship an evil deity (in spite of how sympathetic you've made him); you can argue that although Balduin abhors other undead he's ok worshipping Velsharoon in the same way he's ok being a lich himself ("It's ok when _I_ do it.", "Velsharoon understands why I personally needed immortality and why sometimes evil deeds are necessary/the ends justify the means", etc.)

[zester]

rferries, thanks for your quick reply. I'll reconsider Velsharoon.

edit:
I've read more about Velsharoon now, alas, this won't work out with history. I started my campaign in 1372 DR and, according to "Grand History of the Realms", p. 169, Velsharoon's apotheosis took place only 4 years prior. Balduin couldn't even have known about him when he became a lich several centuries ago (to be exact, around 880 DR).

[KarlMarx]

I'm no expert, but f you don't want to make him Faithless, I can see several deities working.

Jergal: An interesting God of Death, whose domain easily sees links to knowledge and could be interpreted as a protector of artifacts (particularly those related to death), or patron thereof. Faiths and Pantheons has a vague statement that 'life should be prolonged only when it served the greater cause of the death of the world' that could be interpreted as allowing undeath in certain circumstances. However, this option is dependent on the details of your campaign, and cannot be applied generally.

Cyric: A deity heavily associated with madness, lies, and doing whatever it takes to gain/keep power. Could easily adapt to fit this character. I'm not familiar with whether he has a role as a god of undeath, but I don't think so, thus, the only concerns would be whether you're unwilling to break the neutral deity suggestion and whether the villain is too lawful to easily fit as a Cyric-worshipper.

Azuth: Extremely devoted to preservation of knowledge and magic. Works well if the artifact/the villain's career focused heavily on such magic items, but otherwise probably doesn't fit too well.

Hoar: Works well if the villain sees his undeath as his fate and duty, and thus worships Hoar as an extension of that.

Leira: Would work to character's history of deception in gaining power, but I otherwise think that the alignment gap is too great.

[rferries]

I'm no expert, but f you don't want to make him Faithless, I can see several deities working.

Jergal: An interesting God of Death, whose domain easily sees links to knowledge and could be interpreted as a protector of artifacts (particularly those related to death), or patron thereof. Faiths and Pantheons has a vague statement that 'life should be prolonged only when it served the greater cause of the death of the world' that could be interpreted as allowing undeath in certain circumstances. However, this option is dependent on the details of your campaign, and cannot be applied generally.

Cyric: A deity heavily associated with madness, lies, and doing whatever it takes to gain/keep power. Could easily adapt to fit this character. I'm not familiar with whether he has a role as a god of undeath, but I don't think so, thus, the only concerns would be whether you're unwilling to break the neutral deity suggestion and whether the villain is too lawful to easily fit as a Cyric-worshipper.

Azuth: Extremely devoted to preservation of knowledge and magic. Works well if the artifact/the villain's career focused heavily on such magic items, but otherwise probably doesn't fit too well.

Hoar: Works well if the villain sees his undeath as his fate and duty, and thus worships Hoar as an extension of that.

Leira: Would work to character's history of deception in gaining power, but I otherwise think that the alignment gap is too great.

Those are all well-reasoned options; for something truly bizarre you could throw in Kiaransalee too :D

[zester]

Thanks for your replies, once again!

Those are all well-reasoned options; for something truly bizarre you could throw in Kiaransalee too :D

I like Kiaransalee very much and you're right: it would be bizarre. Unfortunately, one of Balduin's former party members was a disgraced Drow matron who only reluctantly cooperated with the surface dwellers, and guess what, after a decade or so the war was won and she immediately backstabbed her other party members. Balduin was the only one to survive her treason. So: no Drow deity for him.

I'm no expert, but f you don't want to make him Faithless, I can see several deities working.

Jergal: An interesting God of Death, whose domain easily sees links to knowledge and could be interpreted as a protector of artifacts (particularly those related to death), or patron thereof. Faiths and Pantheons has a vague statement that 'life should be prolonged only when it served the greater cause of the death of the world' that could be interpreted as allowing undeath in certain circumstances. However, this option is dependent on the details of your campaign, and cannot be applied generally.

Cyric: A deity heavily associated with madness, lies, and doing whatever it takes to gain/keep power. Could easily adapt to fit this character. I'm not familiar with whether he has a role as a god of undeath, but I don't think so, thus, the only concerns would be whether you're unwilling to break the neutral deity suggestion and whether the villain is too lawful to easily fit as a Cyric-worshipper.

Azuth: Extremely devoted to preservation of knowledge and magic. Works well if the artifact/the villain's career focused heavily on such magic items, but otherwise probably doesn't fit too well.

Hoar: Works well if the villain sees his undeath as his fate and duty, and thus worships Hoar as an extension of that.

Leira: Would work to character's history of deception in gaining power, but I otherwise think that the alignment gap is too great.

I'll mostly agree with your assessment. I can't make Balduin faithless, because in the Forgotten Realms setting I think that would result in the loss of his divine spell casting powers.

Azuth and Hoar both don't fit my idea of this specific villain too well, although I'll make sure to read their descriptions again.

Leira is very interesting, but indeed she'd be too chaotic. Furthermore, she has been killed (and consumed, I think) by Cyric in the Time of Troubles. Though she might be an option if Balduin just doesn't know that it is really the Prince of Lies who answers his prayers now. He has been unliving very reclusively these last centuries and it would even explain his drift towards madness.

I think Jergal is my favorite: he is mostly passive today, but centuries back he was the Lord of Death. He loathes "unsanctioned" undead (and an undead army was exactly the reason for Balduin to enter the war in the first place) and suffers other undead with a very good reason for their prolonged existence. So Jergal might accept Balduin's Lichdom as long as he'll give it up when specific circumstances are met, for example when his watch is over. At the end of the campaign the lich could accept his fate at the hands of the PCs or he could, in his madness, even break his vow and fall from grace with his lord.

So I think I'll go with Jergal. Thank you very much, rferries and KarlMarx!

[Elrak]

I may be a bit late to the party, but just as an idea (especially 'cause I like Ohgma and my current cleric worships him) would be to grant Balduin the "Heretic of the Faith" feat from powers of Faerun. this would let him violate the regular doctrines of the faith of the characters patreon. I would basically roleplay it so that in Balduin's mind Ohgma understands the need of subterfuge when in pursuit of a higher goal. He may further defend his claim by saying that all that has transpired has been properly recorded (in his "Chronicles") and as such the information is still out there just somewhat restricted meaning that no knowledge has been lost.

[zester]

Welcome to the party, Elrak, and thanks for your advice, too.

I've never heard of this feat before and, being a fan and player of the cleric class myself, I think that straying from the straight and narrow "legally" feels a bit cheesy for a PC - but it's exactly what I need for this villain. After all, he is bending the rules, and with your clever approach towards roleplaying I'm sure I can sell that Oghma hasn't given up on him... yet.

Now I'll probably make two versions of Balduin and see which one suits me better. Jergal is still a great match for him, too, and I guess Balduin would still take up this feat just to be sure. Yet, Oghma fits better into my campaign. I set my story in the Vast, where there is Oghma's most famous temple in the city of Procampur, and the Master's Library of Deneir (one of Oghma's subordinates) is hidden somewhere in the mountains nearby. Some ancient lore stolen from both places will be a major plot point.

With this feat, Balduin can even take up the Craft domain and act more easily as his late dwarven friend, the other domain being either Knowledge or Trickery. But for a theurge, domains aren't that important, as he'll have access to most wizard spells anyway. This decision is mostly for flavor.

[Elrak]

I agree that for a PC the feat may be a bit on the cheesy side and in most cases if I was DM'ing I would not let a player take it without a very convincing in character reasoning for it. On the other hand it lends itself so nicely for NPCs and a more flavorful church structure/dynamic. Just imagine how easily it would be to orchestrate an inner faith conflict which could potentially tear the church apart. For example you could add a subplot in where Balduin may have been able to convert some of the clerics working at the different Ohgma temples to his doctrines which is how he managed to relief the temples of their scripts/lore, and these same clerics could be trying to sabotage the players quest and/or support balduin in trying to manipulate the players (or any other parties seeking out Balduin for that matter) by deliberately providing misinformation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

He can worship the old Mystra from before the Time of Troubles, she was LN so he could be a LE Cleric and stay within one step. The new Mystra (NG) still recognizes old Mystra's followers and grants them spells, or you could give him the feat Servant of the Fallen in Lost Empires of Faerun. In either case, this allows him to take Initiate of Mystra in PGtF which allows him to cast spells in antimagic fields and dead magic areas, so he could use AMF as a defensive ability in combat.

[zester]

Sorry for thread necromancy, but I just remembered this topic and wanted to thank Elrak and Biffoniacus_Furiou for their last answers. I turned to more immediate matters after the PCs met Balduin for the first time in his late friend's temple and after that we all got distracted with an unplanned bonus adventure (* see below).

The old Mystra would've been a great idea too, thanks for that idea. Yet I finally settled with Oghma and the "Heretic of the Faith" feat mentioned by Elrak, which was my favorite anyway. Oghma just fits my needs perfectly. Which obviously means that I dropped Jergal altogether.

I'll even adopt Elrak's further idea and let Balduin have a hand in some kind of inner conflict: this is exactly what the Faith of Oghma suffers from in the years after the Times of Trouble as their Grand Patriarch disappeared without a trace. The Oghmytes split into two opposite factions and I think that Balduin would neither agree with the Orthodox branch in Procampur nor the rival Sembian branch. So why not play them off against each other and misguide some doubtful young priests towards his own goals? I'm just not sure whether he might have even been the reason for the patriarch's disappearance. Balduin is perspicatious and a little bit insane, however, and even unlives in the vicinity of Procampur, so he could have abducted the patriarch just to create some kind of strife. But wouldn't that mean his ultimate fall from grace? (Even if he had no hand in the abduction, his actions still might have had some influence on that matter. Maybe one of his followers went one step too far.)

(*) BTW, Balduin got rid of the PCs without harming them too severely, which (I hope) should occur them as another big hint. The paladin wasn't even the only one who showed no interest in a chat with the abomination after it annoyed them with traps and golems from afar just to shoo them away. When they attacked him, Balduin was fighting defensively and yet nearly killed some of them while just trying to get away. After the Barbarian got a lucky strike, however, he plane shifted him to Dwarfhome (the destination being just another hint towards his non-lethal intentions, as he could've easily picked an elemental or otherwise deadly plane) and teleported to safety with his most precious belongings, leaving behind a fortune in ancient tomes, diaries, battle golems and small inventions. The PCs (to their credit) didn't even check the treasure and hastened to a rescue mission for their friend. When they'll finally get back from their short extraplanar bonus adventure, their dwarven friends will just have begun digging through all that forgotten lore ( and treasure!). When this happens, I'd like to have some diary entries ready for them to decipher, which is why I came back to this thread in the first place.

Thanks again for your support, even if it took me so long to remember my manners.