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    Default Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    So, a Minotaur's horns do 1d10 damage, which is effectively better than an one handed weapon. That means as a PC, you can have a shield in one hand and another hand completely free. I'm trying to figure out how one could most effectively exploit this bonus for a character.

    What could you do with that free hand other than cast spells without Warcaster?
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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Hold an one-handed crossbow/a wand ?

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    You can use the free hand to grapple creatures. I'm currently playing a melee-oriented Minotaur cleric right now, and I use this strategy on occasion. It's been nice to have a little bit of free crowd control, if for only one enemy at a time.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Well... you could use it with a shield and a 1-handed weapon, so you can use your horns as your main weapon and use the 1-handed as the off-hand weapon without having to stop using your shield.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Have another shield! Take Shield Master!

    I know it isn't in the rules but, 2 shields should be +2 AC each, so you should be able to have +4 to your AC.

    With Shield Master this could help you with Dex Saves too!

    At least, that's what I would try to do, if the Dungeon Master would allow it.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrasher92 View Post
    Have another shield! Take Shield Master!

    I know it isn't in the rules but, 2 shields should be +2 AC each, so you should be able to have +4 to your AC.

    With Shield Master this could help you with Dex Saves too!

    At least, that's what I would try to do, if the Dungeon Master would allow it.
    PHB p144 specifies that you can only benefit from 1 shield at a time.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by gloryblaze View Post
    PHB p144 specifies that you can only benefit from 1 shield at a time.
    When a PC ask for this, i will say ok, but it will only work with small shields (bucklers) and say that they give +1 to AC :P

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    Well... you could use it with a shield and a 1-handed weapon, so you can use your horns as your main weapon and use the 1-handed as the off-hand weapon without having to stop using your shield.
    You can't even so that, the phb states that when you make an attack with a light melee weapon, you get a second attack with a light melee weapon as a bonus action.

    The horns are a natural weapon I believe, so I don't think they qualify. Or if they do, you at least need dual wielder.
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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    You can't even so that, the phb states that when you make an attack with a light melee weapon, you get a second attack with a light melee weapon as a bonus action.

    The horns are a natural weapon I believe, so I don't think they qualify. Or if they do, you at least need dual wielder.
    They are not pointed out as natural weapon, just melee weapons.

    Note: You are right though, you would need the dual wielder to use the horns for dual-wield.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    You are right, that is a little odd that they wouldn't call them natural weapons. Still better for his that they are melee weapons.

    It is a rather terrifying image of a Minotaur charging into combat, goring with their horns and breaking bones with a warhammer while also wielding a shield.
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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    They are not weapons, just like a monk's unarmed attack is not a weapon.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-08-18 at 09:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    They are not weapons, just like a monk's unarmed attack is not a weapon.
    This may be a typo and not RAI, but RAW from UA is that they are weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterborn Adventures
    Horns. You are never unarmed. You are
    proficient with your horns, which are a melee
    weapon
    that deals 1d10 piercing damage. Your
    horns grant you advantage on all checks made to
    shove a creature, but not to avoid being shoved
    yourself.
    Last edited by nickl_2000; 2017-08-18 at 09:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    This may be a typo and not RAI, but RAW from UA is that they are weapons
    RAW from UA doesn't exist. That's an oxymoron. Those are play test rules, not official rules. If it isn't official, it can't be RAW.
    I 100% guarantee you with absolutely zero doubt in my mind whatsoever that, if this ever becomes official, they are not considered weapons, and that the wording will be changed to something along the lines of: "When you take the attack action you can use your horns to make a single melee attack which does 1d10 damage" or something along those lines, so that it isn't specifically called a weapon. I guarantee it.

    But you should never, and I mean absolutely never, use the term RAW when discussing anything from UA. UA has no RAW because UA isn't official.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-08-18 at 09:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    RAW from UA doesn't exist. That's an oxymoron. Those are play test rules, not official rules. If it isn't official, it can't be RAW.
    I 100% guarantee you with absolutely zero doubt in my mind whatsoever that, if this ever becomes official, they are not considered weapons, and that the wording will be changed to something along the lines of: "When you take the attack action you can use your horns to make a single melee attack which does 1d10 damage" or something along those lines, so that it isn't specifically called a weapon. I guarantee it.

    But you should never, and I mean absolutely never, use the term RAW when discussing anything from UA. UA has no RAW because UA isn't official.
    What?

    It is a Rule that is Written (RAW).
    It is a playtest rule, from Unearthed Arcana (UA)
    But it is a Rule.

    The fact that it isn't yet an officially published rule, has nothing to do with the Ruling of said rule.
    So anyone can, and in fact should, discuss the RAW, and the RAI of said playtest rule to iron out any issues.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    The most obvious exploit is to grapple one or two targets while still having that 1d10+strength damage. Its pretty damn good. You can also have +2 strength which fits a grappler. The rest of the features are kind of meh though. Unfortunately you explicitly cannot shove a creature prone with the horns.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by Findulidas View Post
    The most obvious exploit is to grapple one or two targets while still having that 1d10+strength damage. Its pretty damn good. You can also have +2 strength which fits a grappler. The rest of the features are kind of meh though. Unfortunately you explicitly cannot shove a creature prone with the horns.
    Ya, it would be good to grapple with one hand, hold a shield with a second hand, and attack with the horns (though that would take some decent flexibility). Add in the grappler feat and you attacking with advantage for multiple possible attacks. It certainly could be a pretty big boon against a spellcaster
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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    What?

    It is a Rule that is Written (RAW).
    It is a playtest rule, from Unearthed Arcana (UA)
    But it is a Rule.

    The fact that it isn't yet an officially published rule, has nothing to do with the Ruling of said rule.
    So anyone can, and in fact should, discuss the RAW, and the RAI of said playtest rule to iron out any issues.
    Nope.
    Unearthed Arcana is a collection of ideas, hastily penned, with almost no regard for proper wording from a mechanical perspective, which is hardly, if ever, edited or proofread in any way. It's a first draft of a concept.
    It is absolutely not RAW. There is no RAW for UA. UA material consists of conceptual, non binding ideas. Not rules.

    The Rules (of DnD) as Written include the PHB, the DMG, the MM, the SCAG, and any other officially released product containing rules.
    Everything else is homebrew, and is not part of the RAW (the Rules of DnD as Written).
    If it is not official, it is not, and has no, RAW.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-08-18 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Shieldmaster grapple fighter is something I toyed with making. If UA is allowed, brawny feat makes it amazing. Just use bonus to shove down (with advantage), grapple them and gore 2-7 times depending on level and action surge.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Nope.
    Unearthed Arcana is a collection of ideas, hastily penned, with almost no regard for proper wording from a mechanical perspective, which is hardly, if ever, edited or proofread in any way. It's a first draft of a concept.
    It is absolutely not RAW. There is no RAW for UA. UA material consists of conceptual, non binding ideas. Not rules.

    The Rules (of DnD) as Written include the PHB, the DMG, the MM, the SCAG, and any other officially released product containing rules.
    Everything else is homebrew, and is not part of the RAW (the Rules of DnD as Written).
    If it is not official, it is not, and has no, RAW.
    You are being overly pedantic. By your reasoning this entire thread is non-sensical since Minotaur horns don't even exist in the 'real' rules.
    Your statement that horns are not a weapon is non sensicsl, since horns don't even exist

    To even have this discussion we have to assume that the Minotaur UA rules are at least legit enough to discuss...... you are willing to discuss them, but then want to ignore them when your claims are shown inaccurate.
    You can't have it both ways.
    Last edited by coredump; 2017-08-19 at 09:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    Shieldmaster grapple fighter is something I toyed with making. If UA is allowed, brawny feat makes it amazing. Just use bonus to shove down (with advantage), grapple them and gore 2-7 times depending on level and action surge.
    Well considering that the Minotaur is from the UA waterborne, I think it's allowed :)
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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by coredump View Post
    You are being overly pedantic. By your reasoning this entire thread is non-sensical since Minotaur horns don't even exist in the 'real' rules.
    Your statement that horns are not a weapon is non sensicsl, since horns don't even exist

    To even have this discussion we have to assume that the Minotaur UA rules are at least legit enough to discuss...... you are willing to discuss them, but then want to ignore them when your claims are shown inaccurate.
    You can't have it both ways.
    We can discuss them all we want. We cannot invoke RAW, because there is no RAW regarding UA material.
    Read the "This is playtest material" box included in every UA, and then try to tell me that it's RAW.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-08-19 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Well considering that the Minotaur is from the UA waterborne, I think it's allowed :)
    Yea but some people might just test the minataur without other UA goodies as it is hard to balance multiple in development things at once.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    We can discuss them all we want. We cannot invoke RAW, because there is no RAW regarding UA material.
    We can invoke RAW if we accept the simple fact that the words on UA actually have meaning. You do not seem willing to do this as you attacked how valid and how much work is put into the wording of UA. But without accepting the wording, it all becomes "I don't think it should be a weapon and so it isn't". The wording on the UA clearly states the horns are a weapon, which I think was done to avoid abuse with monks and tavern brawler.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    We can invoke RAW if we accept the simple fact that the words on UA actually have meaning. You do not seem willing to do this
    You're correct. I am not willing to do this.
    Mostly because the "this is playtest material" sidebar that is on every single UA article basically tells you not to.
    Go read it.

    <snip> These game mechanics are in draft form <snip> not refined by final game development and editing <snip> aren't officially part of the game <snip> will be refined...
    That sidebar is a giant neon sign, flashing THIS IS NOT RAW!

    As to the words having meaning, they specifically tell you that it has not been refined by final game development and editing. So no, the words do not have meaning. Not yet.

    UA material is presented "for playtesting and to spark your imagination" just like it says. Right there in the sidebar of every single UA article.
    Nothing more.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-08-19 at 03:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    You're correct. I am not willing to do this.
    Mostly because the "this is playtest material" sidebar that is on every single UA article basically tells you not to.
    Go read it.

    <snip> These game mechanics are in draft form <snip> not refined by final game development and editing <snip> aren't officially part of the game <snip> will be refined...
    That sidebar is a giant neon sign, flashing THIS IS NOT RAW!

    As to the words having meaning, they specifically tell you that it has not been refined by final game development and editing. So no, the words do not have meaning. Not yet.
    In that case it is impossible to talk about them. We either accept that we are talking about the Minotaur as written in UA or we can only talk about homebrewing our own Minotaurs using this as a template. Your entire point is this article is pointless because it is play testing. The argument most people on this thread have is we cannot playtest it without accepting the words as mattering. You can argue the weapons should be unarmed strikes, but they are not and I think it is less due to sloppy writing and more to avoid monks.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    I never said that they should be unarmed strikes. I just said I guarantee that if and when it becomes official, they will not be weapons.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
    it's probably because I have
    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    I never said that they should be unarmed strikes. I just said I guarantee that if and when it becomes official, they will not be weapons.
    If they are not weapons they will be unarmed strike. The only other possibility is improvised weapon as those are the only 3 things they have unless they make up a new term.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    If they are not weapons they will be unarmed strike. The only other possibility is improvised weapon as those are the only 3 things they have unless they make up a new term.
    Claws aren't a weapon. Teeth aren't weapons. Neither are they unarmed strikes.
    There isn't an exact specification for a natural weapon in 5e, but they aren't weapons and they aren't unarmed.
    Except when they are, like the Tabaxi. If anything, the horns would be treated similarly, as this creates precedence. But that feeds right into my point. One UA says a natural weapon is a weapon. One official race within the RAW treats its natural weapon as an unarmed strike.

    UA is not RAW, and if this ever becomes official, the horns will not be weapons.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-08-19 at 04:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Claws aren't a weapon. Teeth aren't weapons. Neither are they unarmed strikes.
    There isn't an exact specification for a natural weapon in 5e, but they aren't weapons and they aren't unarmed.
    Except when they are, like the Tabaxi. If anything, the hotels would be treated similarly, as this creates precedence.
    From Aarakocra in elemental evil "Talons. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes, which deal 1d4 slashing damage on a hit.". Lizardfolk and Tabaxi from Volo's guide also refer to your strikes with their bites or claws as "unarmed strikes". So yea, you're wrong with them not being unarmed strikes.

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    Default Re: Exploiting a Minotaur's horns

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    From Aarakocra in elemental evil "Talons. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes, which deal 1d4 slashing damage on a hit.". Lizardfolk and Tabaxi from Volo's guide also refer to your strikes with their bites or claws as "unarmed strikes". So yea, you're wrong with them not being unarmed strikes.
    If you'd stop acting all holier than thou for one frigging second you might notice two things:
    1) I made allowances for that in my post.
    And
    2) You have three RAW examples that you yourself just listed, and yet you still argue that the one UA example will be a weapon? That's ridiculous.
    You defeated your own argument.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
    it's probably because I have
    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

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