3.5 wbl how strict?

[heavyfuel]

You mean like Tolkein?

Frodo had

1. Magic ring (obviously)

2. Magic Sword

3. Magic armor

4. Magic Rope

5. Magical lembas bread

6. Magic elven cloak

7. Phial of Galadriel (contained star of Earendil)

And probably more that they never bothered explaining. And this is in a relatively low magic world (something no one has ever accused D&D of) and a rather low level character.

Yeah, but none of these were throwaway items except for lembas and maybe the magic sword (which apparently was pretty common as far as elvish blades go)

heavyfuel -> in that case the issue is also that the optimized PCs are facing UNoptimized monsters. having different optimizatoin levels between the PCs and the monsters does change the dynamic considerably.

your claim that people forgot of balance here is utter nonsense; we full well know the designers didn't balance well; but many of the basic numbers are setup under assumptions which do have enough relevance to be worth mentioning. especially as for some playres the optimization level between them and the monsters is more similar.

Monsters from the published books. There are many threads on how some them ar under/over CRed, but most DMs don't have time to fiddle with them to create more challenging monster with the same CR (and it's even ludicrous the system allows something like this, as CR should be how challenging a creature is, therefore creatures with the same CR should be equally so. But that's for another time)

It's not utter nonsense. Claiming the designers know nothing of balance and then demanding correct WBL because of balance is stupid, as they designed WBL too. If the level of optimisation between party and monsters are the same, then WBL guidelines should be followed more closely, but that doesn't make my argument nonsense because its essence is that the DM should make the call of how much to give in order to make the game satisfyingly challenging.

[CharonsHelper]

Yeah, but none of these were throwaway items except for lembas and maybe the magic sword (which apparently was pretty common as far as elvish blades go)

And my D&D characters wouldn't throw away their +2 ring, +3 cloak, or their +2 shield. They like them a lot.

[heavyfuel]

And my D&D characters wouldn't throw away their +2 ring, +3 cloak, or their +2 shield. They like them a lot.

Sure they wouldn't. They would, however, sell them as soon they got a +3 ring, a +4 cloak, or access to Magic Vestment for the +1 Shield which is just so much cheaper to enchant

[Zordran]

I think a DM is wise to stay close to WBL guidelines, if only as "legal protection" for his players' fun. Death is real, real bad below level 10 or so, since every one reduces party wealth. I've gotten stuck in that spiral more than once, to the point where I started referring to a friendly NPC druid as Discount Resurrection Warehouse.

If the players have what the book says is "enough stuff," then it's a lot harder to blame PC failure on a DM screwjob.

[Psyren]

The idea that magic shouldn't be special comes before slots. Slots are only needed if magic stuff is so common that you can get crap that starts overlapping with each other.

That's perhaps how it should work, but in practice, design works both ways - some start from slots and go back to item rarity, while others start from item rarity and go back to slots. In other cases the game changes over time - with only a few slots having eligible items early on, to the christmas tree at later levels.

You have a clear preference, and that's okay - all we're saying is that if you want that paradigm where items are special, you need to radically alter 3e (and PF) to make it work.

[Elkad]

Sure they wouldn't. They would, however, sell them as soon they got a +3 ring, a +4 cloak, or access to Magic Vestment for the +1 Shield which is just so much cheaper to enchant

Sell? Someone else in the party needs it. Including my tiger, warhorse, familiar, henchman, cohort, etc.

And while I see the benefit to using Magic Vestment/Weapon in WBL savings, it always feels super risky
By the time it's online, Dispels are flying around like mad.

[Lans]

Because it makes magic items a mundanity, like a phone or a computer. How many other stories have such throwaway, indistinct magic items as DnD? I know of only one such story, and that's because it's based off a video game, and the main character is a crafter (and the other characters react, universally, in astonishment at this ability).

Magic items and abilities are supposed to be something special and rare, not some interchangeable 'bonus I need because my class doesn't provide what I need'. If you absolutely need a magic item for your class to work, it's your fault for picking an incompetent class. The mage is fine casting because it's an ability that they alone possess. A generic magic item should not exist because there is nothing special about it.

In Wildbow's Pact, several characters where described loaded in magic items.

[Deophaun]

The idea that magic shouldn't be special comes before slots. Slots are only needed if magic stuff is so common that you can get crap that starts overlapping with each other.

No, the idea that magic shouldn't be special comes from the idea that the characters aren't. Frodo was special, so he walked around with the full Christmas tree in a comparatively magic-poor world and no one bats an eye.

The difference between magic items being special or everyday comes from the DM's description, not from the number of slots the PCs have filled out.

[Elkad]

Because it makes magic items a mundanity, like a phone or a computer. How many other stories have such throwaway, indistinct magic items as DnD?

Enough.

Wheel of Time is getting there by the end. Most people don't know about them, but there are vaults full of miscellaneous magic items stashed everywhere. Everything from color changing dresses and magic sex toys to dimensional portals and artifacts that can change the weather on a planetary scale.

The Myth books have the Bazaar at Deva, where you can buy literally anything if you have the cash. Cubic Gates (d-hoppers), amulets of dragon control, rings that shoot fire, or let you fly, or whatever else. Whole armies go hopping about on Alternate Primes to find new planets to conquer. People who masquerade as high-powered Magicians, who are actually just Mechanics - getting by on an inventory full of magic items. Your little house in town has a extra-dimensional space to make it much bigger on the inside.

Wizard's Bane series has a fair amount. Hedgewitches make minor items for villages. Elite troops have standard issue magical gear for Communications, protection, etc, and lots of magic arrows with various powers (like arrows of Seeking that one-shot dragons).

Harry Potter. A lot of items (Brooms, Rememberalls, Trading Cards, Newspapers, various Potions, etc) appear to be mass-produced, and the amount of individual custom items is staggering.

[Nupo]

As a DM I never even look at the wbl guidelines. We always start characters at first level, so we never need them at character creation. I've got a pretty good handle on how much loot to dole out, but I've been DMing for almost 40 years. In truth it really doesn't matter. I view the job of the DM it to create a vibrant world that contains a variety of challenges. It's the players job to decide what challenges they undertake. If the DM has been overly generous, they will be able to overcome more difficult challenges. If they bite off more than they can chew they might all get to create new characters, but that's OK. They will learn from their mistake, and make better decisions with the new characters.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you worry less about manipulating things, and more about giving the players freedom it will find its own balance all on its own.

[ksbsnowowl]

I try to stay within one level of the WBL guidelines. It's generally worked pretty well.

As I'm closing in on the end of running all the Sunless Citadel adventure path modules, I asked my players to fill out a little survey, so I better knew what they wanted out of the next campaign. I offered up the idea of running a lower-magic-item game, but supplementing that lowered wealth to meet the system's assumed bonuses/WBL by everyone getting the bonuses from Vow of Poverty for free. Only one player was interested in that, and his interest was more related to the story-integration way that I couched the question (PC's and major foes having these inherent abilities as the result of something that made them special, something more than the common man; something like the god-bloodedness of the Birthright setting).

So, my players at least, like their trinkets.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Maybe make it an in character goal to get better gear/become rich/something?

This is not as a substitute for talking about this out of character, more an addition. Characters who raid the unholy temple of money are semi-logically richer than those who help the poor farmer get his daughter back from trolls. The GM might have figured a world where everything just has a massive treasure is weird and immersion breaking, and he'd rather have you try to make money as you need it. Of course, maybe that's not how you and your group want to play this game, you just want better gear ones so often and select your fights based on how interesting they are rather than how well they pay, so talk to the GM and the group either way. But this could become part of the story if that's something you might like.

[DeTess]

One thing a lot of people have implied but haven't really said is this: if your DM isn't strict about WBL (in either direction) he shouldn't slavishly adhere to CR). As long as he actually estimates what is a good challenge for the party, going over or under WBL isn't a problem, but if you want to use CR as a law, rather than rough estimation, you should also stick to WBL.

[Eldariel]

One thing a lot of people have implied but haven't really said is this: if your DM isn't strict about WBL (in either direction) he shouldn't slavishly adhere to CR). As long as he actually estimates what is a good challenge for the party, going over or under WBL isn't a problem, but if you want to use CR as a law, rather than rough estimation, you should also stick to WBL.

However that does little to address the intraparty class balance unless you stick to roughly equal tiers of power far as choices/builds go.