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2017-08-17, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
I'm trying to write up a game system. It is heavily inspired by D&D, Final Fantasy Tactics, and SaGa Frontier.
My goal is to have the important, core stats be relatively simple, with other, lesser stats that are there mostly for flavor and minor bonuses.
Right now, I am using Attack Power, Magic Power, and Speed as the three core stats that are the most important. They will factor into damage calculations, an other core gameplay mechanics. They will range from 1 to numbers much more impressive than 1. I'm not sure where I'm putting the cap yet, but I can easily see one of them going as high as 20 or 30 on a character that focuses on it.
The lesser stats will be things like strength, intelligence, dexterity, etc. They will range from -5-ish (utter crap) to 0 (average) to 5-ish (unbelievably awesome). These will be modifiers to derived stats and specific rolls. Their purpose is to help flavor characters, and to let identical race/class characters have differences between each other.
Classes will mostly provide multipliers to the core stats. (For example, fighters will, say, give 150% Attack Power, but 50% Magic Power. And wizards, vice versa.) I haven't yet decided how those core stats are generated, or how they will increase.
Classes can also be changed more-or-less at will, like Final Fantasy Tactics. (And thanks to the magic of VTTs, this will not result in a disastrous mess of eraser stains on the character sheets.)
Characters have Hit Points, (obviously), Magic Points, (for casting spells), and Weapon points, (for using limited-use non-magical abilities). Also Life Points, ripped shamelessly from SaGa Frontier, which indicate how dead your character is, and do not increase with level. Hit points do not go negative, so after you hit 0, you fall unconscious, and start losing life points instead. (You can think of them like Wound Points out of Star Wars or Unearthed Arcana, except critical hits don't bypass your hit points and deplete them directly.)
There's also your Movement and Jump stats, indicating your movement range horizontally and vertically, and mostly dependent on class.
And that's pretty much all I have so far.
I have Hit Points being modified by the lesser stat Constitution. But I want to have WP, MP, and LP also modified by stats, and maybe Movement, and Jump too.
I see WP as a sort of "stamina" kind of thing. What would modify that? I don't want to use Constitution again, if I can avoid it.
I can maybe see movement being modified by dexterity? And maybe jump modified by Strength, or perhaps some kind of "acrobatics" stat?
What would modify MP? Willpower? Concentration? Charisma?
I was thinking LP could be wholly generated by several different stats. Like maybe Constitution+Willpower+something+something+an arbitrary number like 5 (possibly class dependent) = maximum LP. That way it remains a relatively small number, but also doesn't unnecessarily punish someone for making a dump stat out of one of its components.
Thoughts?
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2017-08-17, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Your post did not answer the one most important question to address when creating a new system: why?
What is it you're trying to accomplish that is not covered by an existing system and couldn't be covered by an existing system with some house rules? Why are you unsatisfied with existing (or modified) systems? What do you want to happen in a game that isn't happening, or what do you want to avoid? All of these questions look at specifics that are covered by the simple question "Why?"
Once you can answer that you'll probably find many of your other questions answered. If not, then we'll need the answers to these things in order to help with the others.
And if you don't find a good answer to "Why?" then you should consider not bothering. I don't want to discourage you if you're set on doing it, but it's a lot to take on without a clear reason.-- Joe“Shared pain is diminished. Shared joy is increased.”-- Spider RoninsonAnd shared laughter is magical
Always remember that anything posted on the internet is, in a practical if not a legal sense, in the public domain.
You are completely welcome to use anything I post here, or I wouldn't post it.
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2017-08-17, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
To an initial read, the system sounds a bit heavy on the clunky end for tabletop (better suited to a video game where the computer can track stuff), but I'll put those thoughts aside. I don't mean to say this can't work.
Major and Lesser Attributes
So Attack Power, Magic Power, and Speed are your core. That's cool.
Are your lesser attributes based off (or keyed to, linked to) these? For example, there's Attack Power, and under it are strength, constitution, etc.? I'm assuming this is the case in some of the below.
Social stuff
It looks like your game doesn't have any stats or things related to social things, like persuasion, bluff/lying, deception, etc. That is fine if your game purposefully doesn't have those, but note that by the way your rules are written... well, those are fluff. Or (which is less okay) probably spellcasters would be the best socialites since stuff like Willpower is under Magic Power.
I have played a game where the DM said the PCs were as smart or persuasive as the player could be, and (despite my concerns) it turned out pretty fine.
Classes
(For example, fighters will, say, give 150% Attack Power, but 50% Magic Power. And wizards, vice versa.)
HP, WP, MP, and LP
Your core stats are Attack, Magic, and Speed. What if HP is based on a lesser ability of Attack (constitution), your WP a lesser aspect of Speed (not sure what, but measuring how you can execute complex maneuvers), and your MP a lesser ability of Magic (not sure which).
For LP, I'd recommend putting it as something that doesn't give more LP to a build that focuses on a given main stat. Maybe Attack + Magic + Speed as your LP total? Or just use a flat number, the same base LP for all characters.
Note that I'm assuming losing LP works like it does in Saga Frontier, where being hit when unconscious/dead (regardless of how bad) costs you 1 LP. If you can lose a lot of LP in one hit, probably better to have it tied to stats that get higher numbers; if just a few points, a flat number like 5, 10, or the combo of a few skills makes sense. Here I could feel okay with (Attack + Magic + Speed)/3.
EDIT: another thought (borrowing from Star Ocean): instead of WP, use HP. That is, physical techniques use up the character's HP to perform. This would generally reflect them spending their endurance and energy on doing a special attack instead of saving it to shrug off damage.
General Thought
(And thanks to the magic of VTTs, this will not result in a disastrous mess of eraser stains on the character sheets.)
While true, that feels like an awfully strong assumption to make when designing a system. Some players prefer real paper. I can picture classes sort of like a chassis it is easy to put your character into or take it out of, without too much fiddling on the character sheet. Also, even if doing virtual table top, if it could take a long time to change classes (such as in downtime between big missions, but you're in the same session in real-life), that bogs down play and wastes time.Last edited by JeenLeen; 2017-08-17 at 02:22 PM. Reason: added some clarification
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2017-08-18, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Your post did not answer the one most important question to address when creating a new system: why?
What is it you're trying to accomplish that is not covered by an existing system and couldn't be covered by an existing system with some house rules? Why are you unsatisfied with existing (or modified) systems? What do you want to happen in a game that isn't happening, or what do you want to avoid? All of these questions look at specifics that are covered by the simple question "Why?"
If I had to give any more concrete reason than that as to why not just use another system, I can only say "because other systems don't have enough Final Fantasy Tactics and SaGa Frontier in them".
I wanted to go with a system that's relatively simple at its core. That's why there are only three core stats, and they're fairly abstract. And I want a system that allows class-change because I love those kinds of games.
Is VTT short for Virtual Table Tops?
While true, that feels like an awfully strong assumption to make when designing a system. Some players prefer real paper. I can picture classes sort of like a chassis it is easy to put your character into or take it out of, without too much fiddling on the character sheet. Also, even if doing virtual table top, if it could take a long time to change classes (such as in downtime between big missions, but you're in the same session in real-life), that bogs down play and wastes time.
If, (and it's a big if) the system ever does get published, and released to the rest of the world, then its VTT dependency will be just another feature of the game that people will either like or dislike. "I don't like 4th edition, it's too much like an MMO." "I don't like GURPS, it's too complicated." "I don't like Call of Cthulhu, it's got too much psychological horror." "I don't like Chimera's Awesome Class-Change Game(tm), it's dependent on virtual tabletops." If they don't like it, there are plenty of other games to play. Trying to please everyone rarely ends well.
I intended class change to be pretty much instantaneous. Like the games, you just open the menu, and decide to be a fighter instead of a wizard now, fiddle with your abilities and equipment, and you're done.
In-game, it'll still be instantaneous, because there'll be a macro that takes care of all the changing stats for you.
Major and Lesser Attributes
So Attack Power, Magic Power, and Speed are your core. That's cool.
Are your lesser attributes based off (or keyed to, linked to) these? For example, there's Attack Power, and under it are strength, constitution, etc.? I'm assuming this is the case in some of the below.
I really never intended secondary stats to be terribly important. They're there as a way to add flavor to characters more than anything. Since classes can change, it would cripple some characters if their stats made them sub-optimal at a particular class. In D&D, if you have 18 strength and 8 intelligence, you'd be a great fighter, but a terrible wizard. In my game, the impact of low secondary stats should be minor, so you could still have stupid or ditzy wizards if you wanted. Honestly, I want a character to be playable even with all zeroes across the board in their secondary stats. I actually see this as a default character. Right now, as I'm seeing it in my head, at character creation, you start with all zeroes. Then you can take points from one stat, and apply them to another. There are no hard limits to how high or low your stats can be, but the cost is exponential. (a +1 costs you 1 point, a +2 costs 2, a +3 costs 4, a +4 costs 8, +5 costs 16, etc.)
I haven't even decided how many secondary stats there will be, or what they are. Which brings me to:
Social stuff
It looks like your game doesn't have any stats or things related to social things, like persuasion, bluff/lying, deception, etc. That is fine if your game purposefully doesn't have those, but note that by the way your rules are written... well, those are fluff. Or (which is less okay) probably spellcasters would be the best socialites since stuff like Willpower is under Magic Power.
I was actually thinking of merging secondary stats with skills. I.E. you'd have a strength stat, and an intelligence stat, and a diplomacy stat, and a stealth stat, etc.
I'm not 100% sure I'll do it that way, but it would definitely fit the "keep things simple" vibe of my system. (or at least "keep it simple except perhaps all the calculations the computer is doing behind the scenes")
I'm also thinking of having classes have special abilities relating to the skill-like stats. Like a thief-type class might add your thief level to your stealth or pickpocket or acrobatics, etc.
I've done some more brainstorming since my first post, and right now, the stats that currently exist, and their effects are:
Strength- added to your Jump stat.
Constitution- factors into Hit Points.
Endurance- factors into WP.
Willpower- was gonna factor into MP, but changed my mind.
Aura- factors into MP. Call it Chi or Ki or Mana whatever. Basically your ability to control the energies within you. Seemed like the kind of thing that would contribute to a high MP pool.
Dexterity- added to movement range.
Luck- so far, only contributes to LP.
HP, WP, MP, and LP
Your core stats are Attack, Magic, and Speed. What if HP is based on a lesser ability of Attack (constitution), your WP a lesser aspect of Speed (not sure what, but measuring how you can execute complex maneuvers), and your MP a lesser ability of Magic (not sure which).
For LP, I'd recommend putting it as something that doesn't give more LP to a build that focuses on a given main stat. Maybe Attack + Magic + Speed as your LP total? Or just use a flat number, the same base LP for all characters.
I put so many stats in there, so that someone who picked a dump stat or two won't necessarily get themselves killed by that choice. There are plenty of options for offsetting your low stat. Your class's base LP will make up the bulk of your total, since secondary stats will probably be from -2 to +2 on most characters, but there are no lower limits, and you never know what kind of build ideas a player might come up with...
Note that I'm assuming losing LP works like it does in Saga Frontier, where being hit when unconscious/dead (regardless of how bad) costs you 1 LP. If you can lose a lot of LP in one hit, probably better to have it tied to stats that get higher numbers; if just a few points, a flat number like 5, 10, or the combo of a few skills makes sense. Here I could feel okay with (Attack + Magic + Speed)/3.
EDIT: another thought (borrowing from Star Ocean): instead of WP, use HP. That is, physical techniques use up the character's HP to perform. This would generally reflect them spending their endurance and energy on doing a special attack instead of saving it to shrug off damage.
Spoiler: Fighters don't cast magic, Duh!
For the longest time, physical characters simply didn't have an MP pool because they didn't cast magic.
After all, MP stands for Magic Points in most games. And in the early games, fighters didn't do anything but swing their weapon at the enemy, so that was okay. But then as time went on, physical characters started to have their own special abilities other than "Attack". Some good examples are Dark Knight-Cecil's "Dark Wave" in FF4, to attack all enemies at the cost of his own HP, or Paladin-Cecil's "Cover", used to take the hits for a target ally, or the FF5 monk class's "Kick" which attacks all enemies for less damage per target. The cost of these things was usually in the nature of the move itself, like taking the hit yourself instead of the ally, or splitting your damage between multiple targets.
But then the fighters' special commands started getting more spectacular. Edgar's "Tools" or Sabin's "Blitz" commands in FF6 which could be used freely, could sometimes overshadow actual magic which still cost MP. Some games started to get creative with how to balance these special physical attacks. One of those was the "Use your HP to activate" option, since y'know, Magic Points were for Magic 'cuz it's in the name. Another is how FF9 just said "screw the name, everyone uses MP now". And the FF series has used MP for physicals ever since.
But both of these feel like generally bad design at their core to me. Fighters are there to use their hit points to shield the rest of the party. Using those hit points up to activate their own abilities seems counter-productive to me. Not to mention that some games have hit points actually represent physical harm, not just expended stamina. It makes it seem like the fighter sprained his own muscles to use his fancy sword trick.
And the "everyone uses MP" option isn't bad in its own right, but it often leads to other bad game design. Some people still have the "it's got magic in the name, so fighters don't get as much 'cuz they're not casters" stigma in their heads. But this means that they have less of the fuel that powers their own abilities than the caster classes, and thus can't use their abilities to the fullest. (Final Fantasy Dimensions is a big offender here. My summoner has excess of 300 MP, while my warrior or monk barely has 80. And some of their abilities cost over 20 MP. Better ration them out carefully while the summoner casts Ramuh every random battle...)
SaGa Frontier, on the other hand, simply decided to do for physicals what had been done for magic. They got their own dedicated pool of points to be spent. And they even went one better, and gave magic users what the physical characters always had: a free weak attack to be used at will. Each school of magic typically has a 1-MP spell that does damage comparable with a sword's basic attack. With magical mastery, all spells cost 1 less MP, and thus you can use Sunbeam or EnergyChain or Saber indefinitely, while still levelling up your caster stats in random battles.
Right now, the hard formulas in my system are thus:
Max HP = (Character Level + Class Level) x (Class's arbitrary HP score + Constitution)
Max MP and WP are basically the same.
Max LP = (Constitution + Willpower + Endurance + Luck + Class's arbitrary LP score)
Movement = (Class's movement score + Dexterity)
Jump= same, but with Strength
I'm also thinking of having depleted points affect characters. Like obviously 0 HP knocks you out, but it might be interesting if the others did things too.
0 HP- Unconscious
0 WP- Fatigued
0 MP- Dazed, maybe? Confused is probably too extreme.
0 LP- Dead.
I'm also thinking general rolls might be a single core stat, plus any lesser stats that could conceivably apply. Example: Check to break down a door- Attack Power+Strength+Willpower+Knowledge(architecture). Check to win a footrace- Speed+Dexterity+Endurance.
More Thoughts?
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2017-08-18, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Your system sounds fun, and I can see it working if the computer is doing most of the math. Good point on reliance on VTT being okay if all players & GM are cool with it, which y'all are.
I feel mixed about no WP/MP causing a detriment, since it adds a penalty on top of the bane of just having no more spells/special moves left.
Do some spells/attacks drain WP or MP? If yes, your idea seems better, since it means a viable tactic is to weaken a mage by draining its WP (or, similarly, a fighter via MP damage). I think the penalties should be fairly minor, though. Since I don't know how the dice work in your game, it's hard to advise anything, but probably something equivalent to a -1 or -2 modifier in D&D. I think anything that could make you lose a turn would be too severe.
Maybe 0 WP means you take some extra damage when taking physical damage, and 0 MP means more magical damage. (Could also correspond to chance of a status ailment, if that's a thing.)
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2017-08-18, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Do some spells/attacks drain WP or MP? If yes, your idea seems better, since it means a viable tactic is to weaken a mage by draining its WP (or, similarly, a fighter via MP damage).
Yes, there are now. Those strategies are to awesome to not allow.
Since I don't know how the dice work in your game, it's hard to advise anything,
I was leaning either of two ways for general task resolution.
1. Roll a d20. Add modifiers. Aim high. The d20 system is really widespread, and me and the other players know it better than any other game system we've used.
2. Roll d%. Aim low. I'm taking a lot of inspiration from the Mythic RPG. Its system is to take your relevant stat, (which is a word, indicating a degree of magnitude. I.E. Low, Below Average, Average, Above Average, High, Exceptional, etc. It's kinda like memorizing the order of Size Category names in d20, but for stats) Then take the opponent's stat, (or arbitrary DC for un-opposed rolls), then roll a d%, and look at the result on the Fate Chart, which is used for EVERYTHING. (I.E. Your strength is High, and your opponent's defense is Above Average. The Fate Chart says for High vs. Above Average, you succeed on a 55 or less, get a critical success on an 11 or less, fail on a 56 or more, and get a critical failure on a 92 or more.
The secondary stats are modeled after Mythic stats, just turned into a number. Average is 0, Above average is +1, High is +2, etc. This is also why I have the point cost of adjusting those stats being exponential. The relative power of increasing or decreasing stats is exponential. Above Average is twice as powerful as Average, High is twice as powerful as Above Average, ect. And they increase and decrease without limit. You eventually get to Superhuman, then Superhuman 2, then Superhuman 3, etc. or down to Miniscule, then Miniscule 2, Miniscule 3, ect.
I'm heavily leaning d20. Mostly because the secondary stats just modify the core ones, and they AREN'T based on Mythic stats, so I don't know how well that would work for them. I haven't figured out the scale of the core stats yet either, so I don't if comparing them to a chart would even work at all in the first place.
Though if I DO use the Fate Chart mechanic, I'm not worried about its complicated rolls because of VTT macros...
Of course, there are other dice conventions, too. Like bell curve rolls, via 3d6 for example, or rolling multiple dice, and counting the successes each one gets individually. I think Vampire the Masquerade use something like that... If these or any other dice mechanics would fit my game better, I'm all ears.
I feel mixed about no WP/MP causing a detriment, since it adds a penalty on top of the bane of just having no more spells/special moves left.
-snip-
I think the penalties should be fairly minor, though.
-snip-
but probably something equivalent to a -1 or -2 modifier in D&D. I think anything that could make you lose a turn would be too severe.
Maybe 0 WP means you take some extra damage when taking physical damage, and 0 MP means more magical damage. (Could also correspond to chance of a status ailment, if that's a thing.)
Fatigue seemed fair for 0 WP, both in effect and flavor. In D&D terms, can't run or charge, -2 to Str or Dex checks. Nothing terribly crippling.
I'm not sure what should result from 0 MP, though. Essentially, you've used up your Mental energy. I can see it involving an inability to concentrate, but not sure what else, or how to represent it.
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2017-08-18, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
It sounds like this is not the system for me. "It seems like the next logical step" is a perfectly valid reason to make a system, and the VTT dependence doesn't bother me (much). I don't like the idea of instantly changing class and don't know what Final Fantasy Tactics or SaGa are (one is a video game in the Final Fantasy franchise, I presume, and for other I have no clue) so referring to them by name doesn't add appeal. But that's me. I wish you fun and luck in the persuit, and in playing in the system once it's ready; if that sounded sarcastic please forgive my poor writing, as the good wishes are sincere.
-- Joe“Shared pain is diminished. Shared joy is increased.”-- Spider RoninsonAnd shared laughter is magical
Always remember that anything posted on the internet is, in a practical if not a legal sense, in the public domain.
You are completely welcome to use anything I post here, or I wouldn't post it.
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2017-08-18, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
On dice roll types:
I've come to dislike d20 since, until you get really big modifiers, luck outweighs skill. Except for crazy stuff like 3.5 diplomancy builds, a starting character in 3.5 generally stinks at doing any skills consistently well since their modifier is low. I do think d20 can work well if your total modifiers are high enough that they outweigh the luck while still not making luck a non-issue. Maybe modifiers in the 8 to 15 range? (I'm picking those numbers somewhat arbitrarily.)
In short, d20 seems too swingy to me.
I prefer the d10 system in use by Vampire: The Masquerade and other WoD games. (Although it is d10, you could easily modify it to d6, d20, etc.) As you describe, you have a pool of dice and roll them. Rolling a given value or higher is a success. Sometimes 1s and 10s mean special things, depending on edition. If your dice pool would be reduced to 0, you can still roll 1 die but rolling a 1 on it is extra bad.
But with your high Attack Power, Magic Power, etc. scores, if you treat them like D&D abilities (where a 10 Attack power is a +5 bonus)... I can see d20 working well. Would attacking be something like roll 1d20 + AtkPower modifier + <relevant substat, likely Str or Dex> modifier + <class/item modifiers, like Fighter get +1 to attacks or a +1 sword>.
For some reason, I feel like d20 would feel a bit more like FFT or Saga Frontier than a d10 system would. The Mythic method might work well, too, but I'm not familiar with it and my experience with % dice (Call of Cthulu) left an unsatisfied feeling.
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2017-08-18, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
So I'd love a tabletop game with functional class changing like the Tactics series (haven't played SaGa, but I've heard mostly good things), and you're borrowing a lot from those previous models, so I guess VTT is the only way for it to work? With that said, some notes:
- If your Secondary Stats feed back into your Primary stats at all, you lose the separation you intended from the start on both a conceptual and practical basis. At this point, you've made both equally important, as both play combat and out-of-combat roles, and strongly interconnected, so the "mostly for flavor" selling point is largely moot.
- The Tactics Series also included Defense Stats; what are your plans for defending against attacks and how weapons and armor might function? How strongly do classes map to weapon/armor usage?
- Class abilities - there are multiple ways this might be done. Does each class have skill sets, so that one might have Wizard as your stat-modifying class and your primary skill set and pick, say, Archer as a secondary set? Do classes grant abilities as you gain levels in each class, and all those abilities are available for you to use?
- d100 works better for larger numbers and follows the trends of the video games; d20 works better with larger numbers and follows the trend of DnD and many of its friends/cousins. Both have the same curve; question is, do you want more granularity or smaller math?
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2017-08-19, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
I don't like the idea of instantly changing class and don't know what Final Fantasy Tactics or SaGa are (one is a video game in the Final Fantasy franchise, I presume, and for other I have no clue) so referring to them by name doesn't add appeal.
It had a robust job class/ability system, the likes of which I have not seen in another game since. This is the main part of Tactics that I want to bring into this game system.
SaGa Frontier is also a PS1 era game. It was not very popular, and a lot of people have never even heard of it. It was a mess of bugs and other poor programming. (I literally do not play it without a gameshark to get around some of the worst ones...) But I loved the parts that it got right. It didn't really have any particular "focus" the way FFT was all about "Bring Final Fantasy into the Tactical RPG World", but it did introduce a lot of really interesting and different mechanics, some of which I intent to copy into my game system. The Life Point system, for example. Most video games call you "dead" when your HP goes to 0, and you need some sort of revive spell to get back up. SF treated it more like D&D though, in that while you're down, a simple healing spell will get you back up as long as you still have LP remaining. Another mechanic I hope to import is Combination Attacks. Your characters have a chance to combined attacks aimed at the same target. This was all done dynamically, without any sort of master list of combined attacks in the code. Any two attacks, (or three,or four, or five) stood a chance of combining as long as no enemy action occurred between them. And chances of a combination were better if the attacks were of varied nature. (as in, chances are fairly low of getting four guys punching to combine, but a punch, an elemental spell, a sword technique, and a status effect were much more likely to)
I've come to dislike d20 since, until you get really big modifiers, luck outweighs skill. Except for crazy stuff like 3.5 diplomancy builds, a starting character in 3.5 generally stinks at doing any skills consistently well since their modifier is low. I do think d20 can work well if your total modifiers are high enough that they outweigh the luck while still not making luck a non-issue. Maybe modifiers in the 8 to 15 range? (I'm picking those numbers somewhat arbitrarily.)
In short, d20 seems too swingy to me.
But on the other hand, at high level, the twenty-point variable gap can sometimes be negligible. I once played in a 10th level game where our fighter could only miss most enemies on a 1 or 2. And it would only get worse as your bonuses get higher.
Right now, my two ideas to solve that particular problem are:
1. A wide number range, but with a bell curve distribution, so most results are near average.
2. The variable gap to represent luck actually increases with your bonus. On physical tabletop, this would mean using bigger and bigger dice to make checks with as you level up. This would be difficult in practice, as a d20 is already the biggest common die there is. A VTT however, doesn't have that limitation, can roll a d5 or d13 or d56,848,385. And it could change its die size dynamically. I could set the game up to roll a d(relevant task's modifier / 5) for example.
I prefer the d10 system in use by Vampire: The Masquerade and other WoD games. (Although it is d10, you could easily modify it to d6, d20, etc.) As you describe, you have a pool of dice and roll them. Rolling a given value or higher is a success. Sometimes 1s and 10s mean special things, depending on edition. If your dice pool would be reduced to 0, you can still roll 1 die but rolling a 1 on it is extra bad.
But with your high Attack Power, Magic Power, etc. scores, if you treat them like D&D abilities (where a 10 Attack power is a +5 bonus)... I can see d20 working well. Would attacking be something like roll 1d20 + AtkPower modifier + <relevant substat, likely Str or Dex> modifier + <class/item modifiers, like Fighter get +1 to attacks or a +1 sword>.
If your Secondary Stats feed back into your Primary stats at all, you lose the separation you intended from the start on both a conceptual and practical basis. At this point, you've made both equally important, as both play combat and out-of-combat roles, and strongly interconnected, so the "mostly for flavor" selling point is largely moot.
Core stats for a starting level 1 character will probably be in the range of 10-15, and are only gonna rise from there.
Secondary stats will likely be around -2 to +2 on an average character, and are static after character creation. And every bonus means a penalty somewhere else.
At 1st level, you might feel their effects, but at higher level when the fighter has 50 attack power, modifying it between 48 and 52 is negligible.
My goal was to make them feel like Traits and Flaws that some other games implement.
I'm not saying a player can't play with the numbers and get some interesting effects out of it, but he's gonna have to pay for it all somewhere else. And some players may forego the option entirely to ensure the character is equally balanced for all classes.
The Tactics Series also included Defense Stats; what are your plans for defending against attacks and how weapons and armor might function? How strongly do classes map to weapon/armor usage?
I haven't decided yet how I want to handle armor and other equipment. I like the idea of some classes being better equipped than others, but I also like D&D's approach of anyone being able to use anything, but not necessarily getting full use out of it. So basically, I don't know yet. I might let the coding decide for me, based on which way I can get it working in the Macros first...
Class abilities - there are multiple ways this might be done. Does each class have skill sets, so that one might have Wizard as your stat-modifying class and your primary skill set and pick, say, Archer as a secondary set? Do classes grant abilities as you gain levels in each class, and all those abilities are available for you to use?
d100 works better for larger numbers and follows the trends of the video games; d20 works better with larger numbers and follows the trend of DnD and many of its friends/cousins. Both have the same curve; question is, do you want more granularity or smaller math?
Right now, I'm thinking I'm gonna have to start with Hit Points. Hit points are the goal of any combat. Defend your own, and deplete the enemy's. I'll have to crunch some numbers, and see what total HP is at different levels in different classes. Then I'll know how much damage different kinds of attacks should be doing, then I'll know how what my damage formulas should aim for, then I'll know how stats figure into them, etc. etc. etc. until I have a good sense of the range of success and failure rates, which I'll use to finally decide on dice.
At least that's the plan...
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2017-08-19, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Just had an important thought about dice rolls...
I was talking to a friend about the pros and cons of different dice-rolling task resolution methods, and we began to talk about the ways attacks were avoided in FFT. I was mostly just noting how FFT showed you via animations/special effects what it was that caused an attack to miss (as in, if your shield blocked the attack, a shield graphic would appear in front of your character, and the attacker's weapon would bounce off, or if your class evasion stopped it, you'd dodge to the side, or if the shirahadori ability stopped it, your character would raise their arms to catch the weapon in their hands, etc.), but typically tabletop games like D&D just consider an attack to hit or miss, mechanically, by default. (as in, your shield, your armor, your dexterity, your size mod, etc. is all added to your AC, and the attacker rolls against your AC to see if he hits. If he misses, there's no way via the default rules to know what part of your defenses stopped it. You or the DM could always just make something up for flavor that seemed to fit the situation, of course, but it would be something you decided arbitrarily, not something the game mechanics informed you of.)
So this led me to thinking about how the computer had to individually check each type of evasion your character had, and roll against them one by one, instead of a single check that factored them all in. That would of course be a nightmare at the table.
But if I'm already making my system VTT dependent, then there's no need to shy away from complex rolls like that. It can all be programmed into a macro once, used over and over by the player to resolve any attack in the game (that uses its formula) with a single click.
I'll still have to figure out what size/type/number of dice to use, and it doesn't give me much for skill-type resolutions, but I'm getting a better sense of how it'll all fit together now, once I actually finish making the pieces...
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2017-08-19, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Off-topic, but what bugs and poor programming?
I played the game several times, and while I can think of several things that were really hard, they all seemed intentional. Off the top of my head is some final bosses seeming ludicrously hard, and the method how enemies leveled up the longer you were in an area (so in theory you could get way outclassed if you stay in a dungeon too long, especially that optional lab dungeon where you can rescue that monster character--great place for late level grinding but horrible if you get stuck there too long early game.)
Of course, the bug (if indeed a bug) at the junk shop was very useful.
EDIT: I do vaguely remember 1 or 2 things that could cause the game to crash or you wind up stuck somewhere... but those seemed minor and fairly avoidable. (And I think maybe some bug about who Blue and Rogue interacted, but maybe that was just the game not explaining what happened via dialogue or exposition.)
Back on topic
I haven't decided yet how I want to handle armor and other equipment. I like the idea of some classes being better equipped than others, but I also like D&D's approach of anyone being able to use anything, but not necessarily getting full use out of it. So basically, I don't know yet. I might let the coding decide for me, based on which way I can get it working in the Macros first...
Yes, I intend for characters to level up in a class, learn abilities from those class, change to another class, and set some of the first class's abilities in "ability slots" for use outside of that class. I've been thinking about this pretty much since I began working on the system. The original Final Fantasy Tactics had one forced action ability due to your class, and slots for a second action ability, a reaction ability, a support ability, and a movement ability that you could freely choose. I want something like that, but a little more free-form. Right now, my vision is that characters have an "Ability Point" stat, which represents their capacity to use other class' abilities. I have it set right now as (Level / 10) +2 (not modified by class or stats in any way). So you'll have two free slots at level 1, and gain another one every ten levels. And some abilities will have a cost of more than one slot, too. I took this idea from Wild Arms XF and Final Fantasy Dimensions. Typically Action abilities cost two slots, while reaction, support, movement cost 1, though there are exceptions
Either way is fine, but equipment seems a way to simplify while keeping to the spirit of the system.
Speaking of level/10, oes this mean you plan on having a 'character level' separate from the 'class level'?
Or would your level be your class level, so you get weaker when you switch to a lower-leveled class?
The Ability Point thing seems a good method, though honestly I'd recommend being a touch more generous unless you plan on getting to levels in the 40s-99.
...not a design question, but this seems questionable in a small way as a fluff/setting question. Why would this be the case? I can get behind switching classes, even if go with something like the 'class crystals' from one of the early Final Fantasies (I think the first one that implemented a single character changing class, though maybe it's the second, the one where you find shards of the Elemental Crystals which unlock classes).
I know games stretch realism a lot, but is there a good justification for why you can't use your thief skills when you start training as a wizard?
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Lastly, as a general note, having Jumping matter feels weird. Although it's definitely a thing in D&D, it so rarely matters that it seems odd to implement in a tabletop game as a relevant movement. I know it was important in FFT, but... just seems like a lot of work in level design for every combat, since it implies knowing the exact heights to know who can and can't climb.Last edited by JeenLeen; 2017-08-19 at 10:16 PM.
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2017-08-20, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Off-topic, but what bugs and poor programming?Spoiler: That poor, poor game...
I played the game several times, and while I can think of several things that were really hard, they all seemed intentional.
Off the top of my head is some final bosses seeming ludicrously hard, and the method how enemies leveled up the longer you were in an area (so in theory you could get way outclassed if you stay in a dungeon too long, especially that optional lab dungeon where you can rescue that monster character--great place for late level grinding but horrible if you get stuck there too long early game.)
Of course, the bug (if indeed a bug) at the junk shop was very useful.
There are a few more beneficial bugs, too. Like teaching characters spells from both of two opposed schools in certain situations. If you get a character the Gift for Rune magic, then go teach them all the low-level arcane spells from the magic shop, you can get a RuneSword from a shop in Koorong, which lets you cast VictoryRune in battle. This counts as a use of the spell for the "learning magic" check at the end of battle. Once you've learned your first Rune spell, you can use it to learn all the others. Or just keep using the RuneSword. In the same way, Mystics can learn the low-level Realm magic, then use the PurpleEye accessory to cast that summoning spell whose name I can't remember. This way, they can get all their Mystic spells back while still holding onto the Realm ones. (Though, admittedly, low level realm spells aren't nearly as useful as low level Arcane ones...) In another bug, Blue can give up his Realm spells to learn the low level Mystic spells, then get them all back when he fuses with Rouge.
Then there's the StasisRune/Overdrive trick...
I never saw the point of StasisRune. You and your target both get sort of frozen in time for a while, unable to be affected by anything until it wears off. And it costs you ALL of your MP.
Overdrive is fairly useful though, as it gives you 5-8 turns in a row, with no MP/WP cost on your abilities, before it drains them both to 0 when the spell's over.
However, if you cast StasisRune on the last turn of Overdrive, You'll effectively skip the end of the spell. You'll still have your MP/WP and you'll still have 5-8 turns when you input commands each round. (This even allows you to combo with yourself if there's another person involved in-between.)
Then, there's the not-so-beneficial bugs.
Like how if you start Riki's story, the game forces you to go to Tanzer on your first ship out of Koorong. This means you can't go to the town where you begin the Rune Magic quest. And since you can only visit Tanzer once per scenario, Riki's party is screwed for getting the Rune gift. And you know it's a bug, because if you do try to go the route that leads to the Rune, you get some buggy Rune quest dialog from the empty spot where Fei-On should be standing. If you use a gameshark to get to the town to start the Rune quest before Tanzer, you actually get some dialog at the end of Riki's personal ring-based quest where they ask if you're ready to go, and Riki basically says "Nope, we gotta go get the Rune stone first."
And some of the formulas for mechanics are buggy. Like due to them putting a few lines of code in the wrong order, your chance of learning some moves on a character are ALWAYS 1/256.
Then there's this mechanic in the game focusing on Mystics. Supposedly mystics are either High class nobles, or Low class commoners, and if a low class mystic attacks a high class mystic, their damage is cut by 3/4. The only thing is, every Mystic enemy in the game is coded as low class. Even Lord Orlouge himself. And, every mystic that can join your party with the exception of Mesarthim is high class. And then, for the icing on the cake, the actual formula that actually does the dividing damage forgets to check enemies for their high/low status, so even if there WERE High Mystic enemies, it wouldn't matter...
And these are just the bugs I remember off the top of my head.
EDIT: I do vaguely remember 1 or 2 things that could cause the game to crash or you wind up stuck somewhere... but those seemed minor and fairly avoidable. (And I think maybe some bug about who Blue and Rogue interacted, but maybe that was just the game not explaining what happened via dialogue or exposition.)
'd recommend having armor and weapons not do too much, since you already have so many moving parts. I realize most of the math is handled by VTT, but it's more for the players to figure out and deal with, and it might be best to have one thing be simple. Like, look at Final Fantasy 7 and it's 1 weapon, 1 armor, and 1 accessory (...if you don't count materia's stat augmentation, which I guess you should.)
Either way is fine, but equipment seems a way to simplify while keeping to the spirit of the system.
I think I'm gonna aim "weapon and accessory". And if your weapon doesn't match your class, you just won't be proficient, or something.
Speaking of level/10, oes this mean you plan on having a 'character level' separate from the 'class level'?
Or would your level be your class level, so you get weaker when you switch to a lower-leveled class?
The Ability Point thing seems a good method, though honestly I'd recommend being a touch more generous unless you plan on getting to levels in the 40s-99.
Right now, I have your HP, etc. be dependent on both your character and class levels. But with class levels capped, it'll never be more than a small benefit in late game, and it's a way to offset the fragility of low level characters in early game.
...not a design question, but this seems questionable in a small way as a fluff/setting question. Why would this be the case? I can get behind switching classes, even if go with something like the 'class crystals' from one of the early Final Fantasies (I think the first one that implemented a single character changing class, though maybe it's the second, the one where you find shards of the Elemental Crystals which unlock classes).
I know games stretch realism a lot, but is there a good justification for why you can't use your thief skills when you start training as a wizard?
And really, as long as I say the NPCs do it too, then it's "normal".
Lastly, as a general note, having Jumping matter feels weird. Although it's definitely a thing in D&D, it so rarely matters that it seems odd to implement in a tabletop game as a relevant movement. I know it was important in FFT, but... just seems like a lot of work in level design for every combat, since it implies knowing the exact heights to know who can and can't climb.
At first my goal was to find a truly 3D VTT, and import 3D models of battlefields I'd built in Minecraft. But there do not seem to be any good 3D VTTs at all right now.
Then I found out that Maptool now supports Isometric maps. I figure if I can't use truly 3D maps like Final Fantasy Tactics, then the pseudo-3D Isometric maps of FF Tactics Advance would be the next best thing.
Spoiler: Like this
I've been drawing up some generic-looking battlefields pieces to use in Maptool, done up in the same general style. The only kink in the plan so far, is that Maptool still just treats it as a 2D grid, albeit an oddly-shaped one. So there's no way to get the game to calculate distance and jump height correctly for me. But as long as I draw the battlefields well, it should be easy to eyeball it...
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2017-08-24, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
New thought regarding the 0 MP and 0 WP statuses.
I've been doing a lot of the macro-coding and requisite number-crunching.
Right now I'm applying a "Fatigued" status at 0 WP, and a "ManaBurn" status at 0 MP.
"Fatigued" is supposed to represent being tired and out of energy. I.E., you're sluggish, you can't lift as much, you can't summon up any stamina for difficult tasks, etc.
"ManaBurn" is pretty much the same thing for your mind. You can't concentrate or focus, your thoughts are slow, your attention wavers, etc.
But now, I finally have an idea for the mechanics of these situations.
First of all, my system allows a character to use a spell (or physical ability) as long as they have at least one MP (or WP), even if it's less than the cost of the spell.
When you use a spell (or ability), or when an enemy drains your MP (or WP), if that would put you at 0 or below, the difference is applied as a penalty to your mental (or physical) stats.
For example, if you used a spell that cost 10 MP, but you only had 6 MP remaining, you'd cast it normally, then you'd have a -4 penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom, Willpower, Perception, Concentration, etc. which would last until you regained some MP.
And ditto for WP and stats such as Strength, Dexterity, Endurance, Reflexes, etc.
Maximum LP would be calculated from the "base" stats rather than the "current, modified by penalties" stats, so that you don't accidentally kill yourself by casting a spell at low MP/WP. But Max HP would probably still use current stats.
Does this seem like a decent game mechanic?
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2017-08-24, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
Let me throw my 2 gil in here. There are plenty of Final Fantasy RPGs lurking in the web (there's one in my signature, for example). If you accept a suggestion, you should take a look at them - not to play them, since you seem quite decided on making your game, and thats a great thing, but to see how they tackled the same design goals you had and came up with their own spin.
SeeD, in my humble opinion, is the game that seems most aligned with your goals. It is a Final Fantasy RPG made with the assumption of online gaming in mind, and uses VTT's tools to its fullest. Also, it contains several different job systems, going from "you got one class" to "you can swap classes at will" to "pick a bunch of abilities and make up your class".
I wish you great luck in your endeavor and want to hear more about this project. Keep us updated!Final Fantasy RPG 4th Edition:
A complete game, ready for your JRPG-esque tabletop needs, written in Portuguese and English
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2017-08-24, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
How do the stat penalties mix with possible pool drain? That is, can I drain your MP to lower your intelligence score?
What sort of out of combat stuff are you thinking about? Final Fantasy doesn't have a log of non-combat stuff, but exploration and mini-games seem common enough in the series.
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2017-08-25, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
SeeD, in my humble opinion, is the game that seems most aligned with your goals.
How do the stat penalties mix with possible pool drain? That is, can I drain your MP to lower your intelligence score?
What sort of out of combat stuff are you thinking about? Final Fantasy doesn't have a log of non-combat stuff, but exploration and mini-games seem common enough in the series.
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2017-08-25, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: So I'm trying to write up a game system from scratch...
I think a game can be good without actual checks, but having the DM roll something like a Luck die to set the person's mood and let them respond realistically to what the player says the PC says.
BUT on the other hand that is unsatisfying for many players and limits PCs to a player's ability.
How about everyone has a "Social" stat, which is derived from their total level. The idea being that more advanced people have trained socially to some degree (or at least can be imposing or awe-inspiring when they care to be). Certain classes could boost it, like an Orator class might get bonuses to Diplomacy uses.
If someone wants to be great socialite without being the Orator (or whatever) class, they can buy that skill and equip it when being another class.
To throw some arbitrary calculations out there, maybe something like:
Base Social = 1/3 * Character Level (round down)
Subcategories:
--Deception (lying, misleading, bluff): Base Social + class modifiers (like bonus for thief)
--Intimidate: Base Social + class modifiers (bonus for most martial classes... though I guess magic users are also intimidating to anyone who is afraid of more than big muscles)
--Persuasion/Diplomacy: Base Social + class modifiers (Orator, Bard, etc.)
Maybe Performance as another subcategory.