OOTS #1092 - The Discussion Thread

[Kardwill]

If the elders are also protected by dwarven law, this also has the benefit of neatly making the Order's preparations useless!

Did the reason "the world-destroying murderous villain is protected by local law" ever stop an adventuring party to kill him? ^^
Yeah, I know, the godsmoot worked that way, but those circunstances were pretty unique (a gaggle of high-level clerics ready to take action with full support of their god, magical defenses, the works). Here, the worst backlash they can expect from the locals is "Those guys who killed the vampire elder that slaughtered our priests? Well, sure, it was illegal, and we will have some very stern words with them. Someday. Maybe. After the victory feast. Where's my beer?"

So, even with your trick (which is a nice way to circumvent the whole "not their free will" defense, I must say), the real question remains the same : Can they kill the vampires and save the elders before the vote?

[Kardwill]

...Or he's considering the possibility that the dwarven people might want to have a say in that decision, as per the spirit of his vow, and might even be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

Well, sure, he's listening to his people and respects their will, at least. I have to give him that, he's better than the rest of the northern pantheon. But that's a really low bar since most OOTS gods are real jerks. ^^

Still, if he's willing to let the vote of dominated leaders count, the first dwarven king is the demigod of assinine lawful-stupid rules-stickling bureaucracy. Which is not that weird, since what we've seen of the dwarves kinda paint them as an extremely lawful people prone to rule-lawyering, and insisting of being miserable for the sake of honor and "proper" behaviour. The way their gods scewed them with the "bet", putting a "lawful or damned" sentence over their heads, made them that way. So Dvalin's unwielding ways in the face of oblivion kinda fits in that disaster zone they call a culture.

[Cazero]

When the voting is rigged and the voters drugged and manipulated?
Totally, I'd just call it basic common sense. No judge or superior authority would let that pass.

Still, if he's willing to let the vote of dominated leaders count, the first dwarven king is the demigod of assinine lawful-stupid rules-stickling bureaucracy.

You are making the assumptions that Dvalin can tell that the voting is rigged by way of mind-controling the elder and that Durkula's plan didn't account for the possibility of it happening.

[Ganbatte]

You are making the assumptions that Dvalin can tell that the voting is rigged by way of mind-controling the elder and that Durkula's plan didn't account for the possibility of it happening.

If you had read my posts you would know I didn't necessarily made that assumption.
The alternative is there: he's just super incompetent.

[hroþila]

Maybe you should wait to see what Durkon's actual plan is before complaining about how ridiculous it is or how stupid Dvalin is for falling for it.

[Kantaki]

Maybe you should wait to see what Durkon's actual plan is before complaining about how ridiculous it is or how stupid Dvalin is for falling for it.

But where would be the fun in that?

[Mad Humanist]

The way their gods scewed them with the "bet", putting a "lawful or damned" sentence over their heads, made them that way. So Dvalin's unwielding ways in the face of oblivion kinda fits in that disaster zone they call a culture.

I thought it was pretty clear that the dwarves by and large did not get a raw deal from the Great Divine Wager. They almost all get to go the good place - unless it all gets totally screwed up.

[Kardwill]

I thought it was pretty clear that the dwarves by and large did not get a raw deal from the Great Divine Wager. They almost all get to go the good place - unless it all gets totally screwed up.

They can rule-lawyer their way out of their fate, sure, but it's still creating a society where the pursuit of honour above anything else (including loved ones and personal happyness - see how Durkon never attempted to go back and visit his mother) is the only way out of damnation.
And there are still many innocent that end in Hel's claws just because they were unlucky.
How does your 2 years-old sick child die with honor in the middle of winter? Your grandpa that had an heart attack during his sleep? Your sister that was buried under a landslide while traveling to her in-law's home for axegiving? That guy down the street who got devoured by a worg while stargazing? Basically anybody who had a stupid accident while doing something unrelated to their duty?

They have a system where many good people end up in a very bad place, and where even those that don't have to conform to very harsh standards, "or else". Even if 90% get to their normal afterlife, and even if they now think of it as "normal and proper life", that's still a pretty raw deal.

[factotum]

Your grandpa that had an heart attack during his sleep?

I may be wrong, but didn't Durkon say at one point that older dwarves would usually pick a fight with a tree in order to ensure they died with honour? We also know that Thor will fight to ensure people don't go to Hel if he can help it--see the example of the dwarf who died from mummy rot after defending an orphanage from the undead--so I'm sure he argues the case for all your examples as well.

[Mad Humanist]

I may be wrong, but didn't Durkon say at one point that older dwarves would usually pick a fight with a tree in order to ensure they died with honour? We also know that Thor will fight to ensure people don't go to Hel if he can help it--see the example of the dwarf who died from mummy rot after defending an orphanage from the undead--so I'm sure he argues the case for all your examples as well.

Yeah and Hel complains about how she is wasting away. Note that we have only really seen Dwarves worship three deities - Loki (who came up with the deal), Thor (who implemented it) and Dvalin (who actively listens to his constituency). I'd say they got a good deal as far as these things go.

[Kish]

What's "these things"? I see no indication that any other race has any form of "you may go to Hades even if you're unambiguously good."

What's the minimum acceptable number of nonevil dwarves to become Hel's slaves before you'd agree that the situation's messed up?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you had read my posts you would know I didn't necessarily made that assumption.
The alternative is there: he's just super incompetent.

Your whole reasoning is based on what you assume the procedure will look like, and working yourself up to a tizzy based on those assumptions. But this is Rich's story. He may show Dvalin to be everything you want him to be so you feel validated in your prediction, but it is equally likely at this point that the process is set up in such a way he simply cannot tell.

For example:

1. Dvalin's head priest tells the council the question Dvalin needs their input for.
2. The council then meets in a council chamber to discuss.
3. Once discussion is over, each member walks in turn to a room off the chamber, where there is a magical Yay-or-Nay button that only a clan leader can press.
4. The councilmember then presses the correct button in privacy, and walks back.
5. Dvalin's head priest then counts the votes, and sends the result to Dvalin via prayer.

In this scenario, Greg would be planning to ambush the council members in the room, dominate them, get them to vote to destroy the world, and them make them think they did not. Dvalin would never be able to tell. Heck, not even the council members would be able to tell - if Greg is careful enough to make it just a bare majority, all of them will think the others did it.

There are infinite other ways in which Rich could set up the process such that in regular operation the system works, and it is only due the presence of high-level individuals that the system could be turned against Dvalin. Which is fair enough, because in a D&D world, there is little you can do to stop high-level individuals from disrupting whatever it is in their way.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Your whole reasoning is based on what you assume the procedure will look like, and working yourself up to a tizzy based on those assumptions. But this is Rich's story. He may show Dvalin to be everything you want him to be so you feel validated in your prediction, but it is equally likely at this point that the process is set up in such a way he simply cannot tell.

For example:

1. Dvalin's head priest tells the council the question Dvalin needs their input for.
2. The council then meets in a council chamber to discuss.
3. Once discussion is over, each member walks in turn to a room off the chamber, where there is a magical Yay-or-Nay button that only a clan leader can press.
4. The councilmember then presses the correct button in privacy, and walks back.
5. Dvalin's head priest then counts the votes, and sends the result to Dvalin via prayer.

In this scenario, Greg would be planning to ambush the council members in the room, dominate them, get them to vote to destroy the world, and them make them think they did not. Dvalin would never be able to tell. Heck, not even the council members would be able to tell - if Greg is careful enough to make it just a bare majority, all of them will think the others did it.

There are infinite other ways in which Rich could set up the process such that in regular operation the system works, and it is only due the presence of high-level individuals that the system could be turned against Dvalin. Which is fair enough, because in a D&D world, there is little you can do to stop high-level individuals from disrupting whatever it is in their way.

Grey Wolf

I know this is just a hypothetical to prove your point, but theres just still... so much wrong with it. For one thing, the council doesn't actually know how it voted. Given that theyre the ones in charge, they should know that, as a rule. Secondly, I'm pretty sure vampiric domination cant actually affect memories like that. Thirdly, the idea of a private voting booth is just silly. Theres no way to discuss votes and change minds if you don't know who voted which way for what reasons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For one thing, the council doesn't actually know how it voted.

I specifically allowed for them to be told the results - thus the "only dominate half +1" part of the plan.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure vampiric domination cant actually affect memories like that.

[citation needed]. Even regular talking can make people remember things wrong (in RL as well as in D&D), never mind such a powerful mental domination.

Thirdly, the idea of a private voting booth is just silly. Theres no way to discuss votes and change minds if you don't know who voted which way for what reasons.

See steps 2 and 3. That's when discussion happens. Private voting is crucial, for many reasons, and I recommend you read on it, since discussing it here would involve politics.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I specifically allowed for them to be told the results - thus the "only dominate half +1" part of the plan.


[citation needed]. Even regular talking can make people remember things wrong (in RL as well as in D&D), never mind such a powerful mental domination.


See steps 2 and 3. That's when discussion happens. Private voting is crucial, for many reasons, and I recommend you read on it, since discussing it here would involve politics.

Grey Wolf

Not shown: step 6, where the entire council starts babbling in confusion because none of them actually remember voting against their best interests. Even if its only just enough votes to gain a majority, that's still more than half of them who either cant remember which way they voted or believe they hit the other button. Between that and the debates showing the council almost certainly leans the other way, the dwarves would have to be idiots to just let that go without considering that hey, maybe something isn't kosher here. Which is a problem.

[hroþila]

Personally, I don't even think it'd be that unlikely to convince the dwarves to vote aye on destroying the world because the risk of everybody getting undone by the Snarl was too high. They strike me as the kind of people to accept their servitude to Hel as a necessary sacrifice if it came to it (which it won't, but just to illustrate that maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't find it so odd that any of them voted aye so as to merit an investigation for which, at any rate, there would hardly be enough time).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not shown: step 6, where the entire council starts babbling in confusion because none of them actually remember voting against their best interests. Even if its only just enough votes to gain a majority, that's still more than half of them who either cant remember which way they voted or believe they hit the other button. Between that and the debates showing the council almost certainly leans the other way, the dwarves would have to be idiots to just let that go without considering that hey, maybe something isn't kosher here. Which is a problem.

Alternatively, what usually happens when rival clans are involved: everyone starts accusing their political rivals of lying and having voted the other way, and refusing to take their word about their vote.

Also, you are assuming that they are all going to be kum-ba-ya about this, even though it only takes a couple of them to be followers of, say, Heimdall and having heard from their god about what way he'd rather they vote for the discussion to be far less agreeable than you are assuming.

I'm listening right now to the history of the First (and second and third) English civil war ("The Glorious Revolution"), and the number of times the side with the Scots shot themselves in the foot because the Scottish clans would rather turn on each other than collaborate against their enemies is astounding.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Personally, I don't even think it'd be that unlikely to convince the dwarves to vote aye on destroying the world because the risk of everybody getting undone by the Snarl was too high. They strike me as the kind of people to accept their servitude to Hel as a necessary sacrifice if it came to it (which it won't, but just to illustrate that maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't find it so odd that any of them voted aye so as to merit an investigation for which, at any rate, there would hardly be enough time).

Of course there would be enough time, the Godsmoot is waiting on them. They can take as long as they need to.

Anyway, part of that depends on how much the Council is told of the Gates and the Snarl. Given their lockdown on information, it seems unlikely that the Council would be told that particular story, though I concede the possibility. However if Hel thought it likely that the Council would vote in her favor, I don't think she would have felt the pressing need to send a bunch of vampires there to tamper with the council.

[wingedcatgirl]

The plan of Hel's agents lying and claiming the dwarves did it on their own doesn't rely on them having actually done it on their own, only on it being possible that they did.

This does rely on there being a non-zero chance of the dwarves voting to damn their entire race to Hel "for the greater good", but that doesn't preclude Hel wanting to interfere to raise that chance from "not zero" to "nearly certain".

Plus, the lie doesn't need to hold together forever -- only long enough for the destruction to go through. I suspect that even the gods couldn't simply roll that back like a Wikipedia edit war.

[Kardwill]

I may be wrong, but didn't Durkon say at one point that older dwarves would usually pick a fight with a tree in order to ensure they died with honour?

We saw at least one apparently senile old dwarf : Durkon's grandpa, whose absent minded stares, neutral expression and sleeping during his grandson's most glorious moment makes me think he's not really able to "pick a fight" anymore. And what we saw from Thor's and Hel's arguments have been edge cases (a splinter from killing a tree, and a disease caught while defending an orphanage. Both can be seen as heroic from a dwarf's POV). It's a pretty safe bet to think there are probably plenty of dwarves that get through Thor's safety net and fall to Hel. Not a big % of them, sure, but "not a big %" of an entire race can still be a pretty grim bodycound.
Most gods don't really get souls : I got the impression most of those go to the alignment afterlives. Hel is starving because she has no priests and no worship, and the souls she gets as compensation are not numerous enough to compensate that. That does not mean they are near nonexistent, just that there are really, really much less of them that she initially planed for.

That's the raw deal : The dwarves had to put up a pretty grim society to escape Hel, and some of them will anyhow fall into her clutches, when their souls should have gone to the LG mountain.

[Kardwill]

Personally, I don't even think it'd be that unlikely to convince the dwarves to vote aye on destroying the world because the risk of everybody getting undone by the Snarl was too high. They strike me as the kind of people to accept their servitude to Hel as a necessary sacrifice if it came to it (which it won't, but just to illustrate that maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't find it so odd that any of them voted aye so as to merit an investigation for which, at any rate, there would hardly be enough time).

Which would be a pretty heroic and honorable death, when you think about it : Accepting their grim fate so that creation can start anew. Thor would have a pretty solid case (well, more solid than "fought a tree and lost", anyway).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We saw at least one apparently senile old dwarf : Durkon's grandpa, whose absent minded stares, neutral expression and sleeping during his grandson's most glorious moment makes me think he's not really able to "pick a fight" anymore.

He did die of failed livers, though, which is also a known exception, so he too was able to go to his moral plane.

ETA:

Which would be a pretty heroic and honorable death, when you think about it : Accepting their grim fate so that creation can start anew. Thor would have a pretty solid case (well, more solid than "fought a tree and lost", anyway).

Maybe, but that'd only work for those voting in favour of destruction, not the entire dwarven society, who'd not have had time to even hear about the decision before the gods pulled the plug.

GW

[wingedcatgirl]

Maybe, but that'd only work for those voting in favour of destruction, not the entire dwarven society, who'd not have had time to even hear about the decision before the gods pulled the plug.

Well, if they knew that, then clearly they'd hold a race-wide Final Vote before putting in their decision.

The Godsmoot isn't going anywhere without their decision, after all. They can be patient, right?

[georgie_leech]

Well, if they knew that, then clearly they'd hold a race-wide Final Vote before putting in their decision.

The Godsmoot isn't going anywhere without their decision, after all. They can be patient, right?

Point of order, they're not going anywhere without Dvalin's decision, who needs the council's decision. Generally the point of a council is to make a decision without direct democracy being needed.

[The MunchKING]

Most gods don't really get souls : I got the impression most of those go to the alignment afterlives. Hel is starving because she has no priests and no worship, and the souls she gets as compensation are not numerous enough to compensate that. That does not mean they are near nonexistent, just that there are really, really much less of them that she initially planed for.

I thought the various Gods of the alignments split them up in a manner befitting their alignments and cultural standards when the guys of the alignment afterlife got converted to soul-bricks.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Technically he swore to obey them. So unless he has an undwarvishly Chaotic turn, he probably intends to follow that oath no matter what. He clearly says he thinks it still binds him.

On the bright side, it's probably within the bounds of his oath to explain why he thinks "no" would be best for the dwarven people.

Either way, I don't think a technicality like "but they were dominated!" will change his strict adherence to the result.

...I would think that "the dwarves didn't choose how they voted" would be more than a technicality. A technicality is like winning an election by its rules despite most of the citizens not wanting you in office. This is more like if the winner's employees had stolen the identities of all the voters and cast votes for them.
I'm assuming that Hel's plan is more intricate than that. Otherwise, I'm gonna be kinda disappointed in all the gods and authors involved.

If she overrides their will with her own, there is effectively no difference between the two.

That's not what "overrides" means. Maybe you'd have an argument if she completely replaced their will with her own, but even then there would be a damn good argument that, since the original minds/souls of the council had been replaced, they were no longer members of the council (any more than one who had been killed and turned into a zombie would be).
It would be amusing, in my opinion, if Dvalin pointed this out, started the process of replacing the dwarven clan leaders, and the Order of the Stick solved the whole Snarl business before the vote even had a chance to be taken. (But since I expect Hel's plan to not be so simple, I doubt this would happen.)

Hel, a rational actor acting in her own interest believes that she can force his vote by having the council Dominated by vampires.

Hold on, where did Hel say that was her plan? Because I maintain that that is a boring, uninspired plan, regardless of any question of if it makes sense or not.

Take a look at 1024. Roy has a conversation with three Dwarven high priests. They know what Hel is sending her Vampires to do—

Stop right there. What the flying frig makes you think these three priests, who all worship gods with no particular connection to Hel, have any idea of what Hel is going to do with those vampires? They know she's going to do something involving the council vote, and...that's it.

Alternatively, what usually happens when rival clans are involved: everyone starts accusing their political rivals of lying and having voted the other way, and refusing to take their word about their vote.

Or, here's a thought, one of them accuses another of having hired a mage to use magic to influence the vote. Because this is a high fantasy world, and that sort of thing should totally be a thing that comes up in these sorts of dramatic political situations, both real and accused. Any half-sensible legal system would have measures in place to handle these, just like the real-world legal system has measures in place to handle people lying to cover their arses.
At the very least, put a damn magic circle against chaos over the ballot box of destiny. (Despite the name, it works on lawful domination, too.)




To the people who think that votes count even if the council is under mind control, I'd like to ask you this: Does consent count if it was only given under the influence of some mind-altering substance? Alcohol, love potion, generic date-rape drug, take your pick. The girl says yes, so she clearly gave consent. But nobody in their right minds—not anyone who thinks about it for a second, nor any court decision made after people started caring about female consent and asking this kind of question—nobody has suggested that consent counts if it was made under the influence of a mind-altering substance. And vampires are one Hel of a mind-altering substance.
If Hel's plan is just to openly dominate the council and laugh when Dvalin accepts their puppet-votes, she's an idiot and Burlew's taking the mick. But I doubt the latter is the case, so this probably isn't the case. I can think of a few alternatives. Maybe she has a plan to conceal the domination long enough for the destruction of the world to take place (leading to either the Order revealing the deception, or—if their agency is inexplicably removed to focus on Hel's failings as a villain—she boasts about it at just the wrong time and Dvalin retracts his support). Maybe she intends to have her former High Priest (or one of the others) provide a moving speech to the clan elders about how important it is that the Snarl be kept in place while the Order is busy fighting the other vampires, and the Order has to get in to make their own testimony before the vote can take place. Maybe one of the vampires dominates one of the clan elders to make their speech, giving it more weight in the eyes of their fellows, and the Order has to kill that vampire to interrupt the speech, revealing the dominated elder as a puppet.
Or maybe Rich is a better author than I am and he thought of something which will surprise me. And in a pleasant way, not a "this culture that developed in a world of magic doesn't have any safeguards against the most obvious kinds of magic" way.

[Kardwill]

Stop right there. What the flying frig makes you think these three priests, who all worship gods with no particular connection to Hel, have any idea of what Hel is going to do with those vampires? They know she's going to do something involving the council vote, and...that's it.

Because the exarch said it right in front of them. "Master, I brought the teleport orb so we can escape and dominate all the dwarven elders".
It could be a bluff, but it still looks pretty straightforward.
The "dominate" backup plan was formed in advance (Greg says it's more difficult, but much more satisfying for him), and Hel herself knows about it and is okay with it, since she is still gloating about "my world" even after she learns the tiebreaker will be Dvalin.

The 3 other dwarven high priests all know (think?) it will be a domination attack, and yet they fear Dvalin will go along with it and follow a dominated council's decision. (Kinda surprising that Dvalin's priest is not there with them, too. You'd think he'd be the more interested in a free, non-dominated vote. Maybe he's still impersonating his god? We's seen him god talk with Odin and Thor that way, so others could be pleading for a quick decision when Roy's discussion takes place?)

Of course, the plan could be a little more refined than "find elder, look into their eyes, give order, find next elder"

[GreatWyrmGold]

Because the exarch said it right in front of them. "Master, I brought the teleport orb so we can escape and dominate all the dwarven elders".

...Oh. Forgot that bit.
My hopes for this plotline resolving interestingly just got dimmer.

[Kardwill]

...Oh. Forgot that bit.
My hopes for this plotline resolving interestingly just got dimmer.

Nah, the interesting part of this plot's resolution is not the vampire's plan. The interesting stuff will be what happens when the Order's and the vamps' preparations collide, and how will Durkon manage to fight his captor and influence the end result. And possibly the fact that it will happen in Durkon's hometown, which opens wonderful possibilities for sweet drama!

It's THAT stuff I'm excited about right now! Hel's plan? Just a MacGuffin to allow the rest to happen. We know it will fail anyway. :)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Nah, the interesting part of this plot's resolution is not the vampire's plan. The interesting stuff will be what happens when the Order's and the vamps' preparations collide, and how will Durkon manage to fight his captor and influence the end result. And possibly the fact that it will happen in Durkon's hometown, which opens wonderful possibilities for sweet drama!

It's THAT stuff I'm excited about right now! Hel's plan? Just a MacGuffin to allow the rest to happen. We know it will fail anyway. :)

I can't care about a plan's failure unless the plan itself was interesting (and not horribly-contrived). Moreover, that "MacGuffin" is going to taint the rest of the story for me; even if the character drama is interesting, it will be undermined by the fact that it requires some of the most important characters in the plot to be complete idiots for the rest of the characters to get where they need to be.
Assuming that the plot is as bad as you're accepting. I still have some hope that the Giant's planned something interesting.