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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Daemon

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    Default Paladin MAD multi class build

    So this is something I thought about a bit that sounds pretty good on paper, normal human with ability scores after racial: 14/16/14/9/12/14.
    Levels: Ancients paladin 8, battle master fighter 3, fey pact warlock 5 and assassin rogue 4.

    Fighting styles: dueling and mariner, using a rapier, studded leather and a shield.

    Prob Devils sight and the one that gives deception and diplomacy(I think).

    4 ASI/feats: +4 DEX, +2 CHA and alert feat, leaving you with 14/20/14/9/12/16 and +10 initiative.

    Skills: stealth, sleigh of hand(orphan), athletics, insight(paladin), diplomacy, deception(warlock)and perception(rogue mc). Expertise in stealth and perception.

    Pros: good ac, good saves from aura, resistance to magic from ancients, decent chance to pull off surprise nova with invisibility spell, great initiative often leading to advantage on attacks on first combat round from assassin. Good burst capability from smite and action surge.

    Cons: even if useful through all the game it won't get all of its parts before the very end.

    Anyone played anything similar? How did it turn out? Thoughts on the build? :)
    Last edited by Spacehamster; 2017-08-18 at 05:35 AM.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacehamster View Post
    So this is something I thought about a bit that sounds pretty good on paper, normal human with ability scores after racial: 14/16/14/9/12/14.
    Levels: Ancients paladin 8, battle master fighter 3, fey pact warlock 5 and assassin rogue 4.

    Fighting styles: dueling and mariner, using a rapier, studded leather and a shield.

    Prob Devils sight and the one that gives deception and diplomacy(I think).

    4 ASI/feats: +4 DEX, +2 CHA and alert feat, leaving you with 14/20/14/9/12/16 and +10 initiative.

    Skills: stealth, sleigh of hand(orphan), athletics, insight(paladin), diplomacy, deception(warlock)and perception(rogue mc). Expertise in stealth and perception.

    Pros: good ac, good saves from aura, resistance to magic from ancients, decent chance to pull off surprise nova with invisibility spell, great initiative often leading to advantage on attacks on first combat round from assassin. Good burst capability from smite and action surge.

    Cons: even if useful through all the game it won't get all of its parts before the very end.

    Anyone played anything similar? How did it turn out? Thoughts on the build? :)
    Hi!
    I did not play such a build but I can say it's a very good one... In the end.
    The big problem with this will be leveling, there are several features you may not ever see depending on your campaign...

    Also I'm not sure Assassin archetype is that much worth it, I guess it depends on you, your party and your DM to give you often chances to enable it (you should check with friends beforehand, not everyone likes the idea of putting much efforts just to prepare and succeed on an ambush).

    In your place, I'd probably do something similar to this...
    1. Start Fighter to get proficient in Constitution (many nasty effects target it as a frontliner especially at low levels, + concentration saves).
    2. Immediately take one level of Warlock to get Booming Blade, Eldricht Blast and Hex or Armor of Agathys.
    3. Now get Paladin straight up to 4 to get one ASI which you would spend on Shield Master or stat bump (depending on whether you want to be good at Shoving or not).
    You are now a level 6 character. Now either continue Paladin to get better spells and Extra Attack (although honestly you can do without it if you Bless yourself, weapon cantrip will be usually as worthy or better at that level), or make your Rogue multiclass right now to get more mobility, or grab Warlock 2 right now for Devil's Sight.
    I'd say choice will depend on how you fared so far and your party composition.

    There are other ways to go at it too for the first levels, especially if you would consider taking Arcane Trickster (who can learn weapon cantrips) instead of Assassin. Swashbuckler would be also great for other reasons (free disengage and better Initiative would feel great on your character imo). I'd rate the "features's priority" as such personally.
    1. Constitution proficiency 2. weapon cantrips 3. First level Paladin spells 4. Bonus action features (twf, or Cunning Action, or Shield Master) 5. fuel for smites OR manoeuvers OR Auras. A choice will have to be made here.

    In any case, consider Extra Attack as a secondary feature if you want to make your character "come online" before hitting character level 10. In the same idea, accept that your magic resistance (Aura of Warding) will come much later than for a pure Paladin (although you should try getting it before hitting char level 12 ime). A quadri-class may be very good, but it does require harsh compromises for a good part of your character's life. And Extra Attack is really not that important when this build can achieve a Blessed Sneak Booming Blade cantrip anyways. ;)
    Same with Divine Smite, you won't get that many slots to smite with in the first place unless you totally ditch the Auras in the first tiers and instead make them a "capstone" objective.
    Last edited by Citan; 2017-08-18 at 07:16 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Hi!
    I did not play such a build but I can say it's a very good one... In the end.
    The big problem with this will be leveling, there are several features you may not ever see depending on your campaign...

    Also I'm not sure Assassin archetype is that much worth it, I guess it depends on you, your party and your DM to give you often chances to enable it (you should check with friends beforehand, not everyone likes the idea of putting much efforts just to prepare and succeed on an ambush).

    In your place, I'd probably do something similar to this...
    1. Start Fighter to get proficient in Constitution (many nasty effects target it as a frontliner especially at low levels, + concentration saves).
    2. Immediately take one level of Warlock to get Booming Blade, Eldricht Blast and Hex or Armor of Agathys.
    3. Now get Paladin straight up to 4 to get one ASI which you would spend on Shield Master or stat bump (depending on whether you want to be good at Shoving or not).
    You are now a level 6 character. Now either continue Paladin to get better spells and Extra Attack (although honestly you can do without it if you Bless yourself, weapon cantrip will be usually as worthy or better at that level), or make your Rogue multiclass right now to get more mobility, or grab Warlock 2 right now for Devil's Sight.
    I'd say choice will depend on how you fared so far and your party composition.
    There are other ways to go at it too for the first levels, especially if you would consider taking Arcane Trickster instead of Assassin (Swashbuckler would be also great for other reasons).

    In any case, consider Extra Attack as a secondary feature if you want to make your character "come online" before hitting character level 10. In the same idea, accept that your magic resistance (Aura of Warding) will come much later than for a pure Paladin (although you should try getting it before hitting char level 12 ime). A quadri-class may be very good, but it does require harsh compromises for a good part of your character's life. And Extra Attack is really not that important when this build can achieve a Blessed Sneak Booming Blade cantrip anyways. ;)
    Were thinking of the more practical approach of 8 straight paladin to get all the survivability, resistance and extra attack goodness straight away plus to get both ASI's asap. :) then 3 rogue, 4 warlock, 3 fighter and finish with 1 rogue

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    I think there's one too many here. I'd cut either fighter or warlock.

    Both are good, no question, but will squeeze your build into only working at level 10+.

    The battlemaster maneuvers could be replaced by smite spells, and Warlock's Eldritch Blast could be replaced by the occasional bow with Divine Favor. You are a DEX martial after all.

    And if you do go Warlock, take Armor of Shadows, so that you will have full plate AC with 20 DEX.

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacehamster View Post
    Pros: good ac, good saves from aura, resistance to magic from ancients, decent chance to pull off surprise nova with invisibility spell, great initiative often leading to advantage on attacks on first combat round from assassin. Good burst capability from smite and action surge.
    If this is what you're looking for, I recommend a Dex-based Gnome Eldritch Knight.

    Pros: good AC, good saves from gnome racial + indomitable, resistance to magic from gnome racial, very good chance to pull off surprise nova with invisibility + high dexterity and can action surge to double up on attacks, great initiative, great burst capability from action surge multiple times per short rest.

    Additional pros: can multiclass well (especially into wizard for even more spell slots), gets extra feats, has high HP and general defensive capability, starts working before tier 2 of play
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-08-18 at 09:40 AM.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacehamster View Post
    Were thinking of the more practical approach of 8 straight paladin to get all the survivability, resistance and extra attack goodness straight away plus to get both ASI's asap. :) then 3 rogue, 4 warlock, 3 fighter and finish with 1 rogue
    Well, if being a straight Paladin for hundreds of hours before starting multiclassing is fine with you, it's indeed the easiest way to go. :)

    What I suggested was a way to make your concept feel alive as soon as possible. ^^ But whatever way is the most fun to you is the best one, no argue on that.

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    I'm pretty sure that the Mariner fighting style doesn't allow the use of a Shield to gain the benefits.
    You're better off getting Dueling and Defensive at that point.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnightJin View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the Mariner fighting style doesn't allow the use of a Shield to gain the benefits.
    You're better off getting Dueling and Defensive at that point.
    Aw dang missed that, only remembered that you needed medium armor or lower. :)
    Last edited by Spacehamster; 2017-08-19 at 01:34 AM.

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    Corran's Avatar

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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacehamster View Post
    So this is something I thought about a bit that sounds pretty good on paper, normal human with ability scores after racial: 14/16/14/9/12/14.
    Levels: Ancients paladin 8, battle master fighter 3, fey pact warlock 5 and assassin rogue 4.

    ....

    Anyone played anything similar? How did it turn out? Thoughts on the build? :)
    I have played something similar, and generally I have given some thought on like-minded builds, but I wont tire you with the details. Instead, I will try to convey my thought process when I am thinking of such (shall I call them mage-assassins?) builds.

    First of all, assassinate. It's a situational ability. I dont mean it's bad, and I generally think that the majority of people underestimate that (while some few may overestimate it, to be fair). All it is, IMO, is added utility. An alternative way to overcome a problem. Sometimes you'll use it, sometimes not. You'll be the judge of that, as no one else can make that decision for you (meaning you'll have to judge the risk taken).

    But assassinate is not just rolling dice and figuring out the damage. It's a two or three step process. ''Get in, kill, get out''. Far too much emphasis is often given to the second part (ie kill, ie assassination damage), than to the first or third step (which have some overlap) respectively. What does it matter if I can roll 56d8 on a surprise round, if I cant get a surprise round reliably? The randomness hurts a lot, and you need to find ways to minimize it (ie find ways to make sure that you can trigger surrise more reliably). If it is important to be able to surprise enemies along with the rest of your group, then make sure someone (if not you) takes pass without a trace (even if you are an all-stealth-party, accept no alternative). If you want to build up your own skills of pulling off surprises, I prefer to rely on spells like invisibility, alter self (or disguise self assuming I have taken the actor feat), dimension door (and the list can go on to include spells like stone shape, scrying, teleport, etherealness, and the like -even a druid's shapeshifting abilities apply here). You get my point. Magic can help a lot with that. Many people swear that the assassin's built-in abilities (level 9 & 13) are more than enough (perhaps along with some tool proficiencies), and perhaps they are right, but personally I cannot accept a substitute for spells like invisibility and alter self (personal bias).

    But I was talking about assassination damage. Maximizing it is not important (at least IMO). Or rather, it is very important NOT to maximize it, nor build your character around the damage (s)he can deal during a surprise round. There is an arbitrary point, after which assassination damage starts becoming more of a burden than a feature. If you build a heavily-assassination-damage-centric build, you will most certainly spread your build thin. And it will show, as you will be sacrificing overall power (in whatever form it might take, be that of uiltity, dpr, whatever), to boost just your assassinate damage. And you know what the end result will be (aside from putting presure on yourself to always try to pull off a surprise, and thus maybe miss on a more creative approach)? All or nothing. Meaning, you either manage to pull off a surprise and deal 200-400 damage on the pour sap of a BBEG, or you dont get a surprise and play an underperforming (compared to what you could have played if you had not focused that much on assassinate) character for the whole battle. In the first scenario, no one at the table gets to have any/much action, and I would also say that after a while it become kind of tiring for you too. In the second case, you might not enjoy it that much cause your character build is tested out of its confort zone.

    Why am I saying all this? I want to conclude that, I dont value the added fighter levels much. They are not worthless at all, action surge and the maneuvres are nice features. And they do have good synergy with assassinate as well. But.... how much do they really profit you? Surprise round aside, they dont offer all that much. I mean, compared to what they would offer to a GWM/SS build, that might justify this investment in fighter better. You are a dex based melee combatant (either S&B, or sword and a free hand, depending on feat selection). And your SA damage is just a couple of d6's. So while action surge and the maneuvres are still a feature, they are not all that great, since your dpr is far from amazing. And what about surprise round + action surge/maneuvres? Well, confer my paragraph just above. You dont really need that increase in assassination damage (aside that it might be disruptive to teamplay). As long as you have divine smite and two attacks (either from extra attack or from quickening a blade cantrip), your assassination damage is all set to a more than ok level. It is set to an appropriate level, where you will stil get to one-shot enemies, without going all the extra mile (hurting your overall build in the process) to be able to theoritically one-shot the kind of enemies that you will never be able to actually one-shot in an actual game (or even if you do, it will make for a much poorer story and in-game experience). This is why the first thing I always sugget when I see palassassin builds, is to drop the fighter levels. You wont really miss them, and you'll profit much more in investing these 3 levels in another class (I prefer going far in a caster class, because I like the ''ninja'' utility offered by high level spells).

    --------------

    After that, the next thing to do, is try to decide while still planing your character progression, what your build's combat role will be. Personally, I think that there are a lot of skirmishing features already in the build (or easily obtainable), like cunning action and BB, and I find it tough to make such builds really good in any other role, so that is why I also prefer to cut the paladin progression at 2 (or maybe even 3, depending on the oath). A skirmisher does not need aura of protection, and as long as you get something to compensate for the loss of extra attack you would have taken from 5 levels in paladin (like getting extra attack from valor bard, or from the old FS, or from warlock, or even taking sorcerer levels to get quickened and thus have it replace EA -this lat is my favourite approach), then I think you re all set. A skirmisher doenst really need a shield either, so this is why I prefer not to take warcaster and go with a one-hander and a free hand (as there is pressure to raise dex and there are better feats for us than warcaster IMO -see ps). To put forth an example, pal2/ass3/sorc15 is a small variation (from an endbuild perspective) of the character I played. But I'll stop here since I went on for quite a while.

    ps: Alert and lucky are very useful on an assassin, IMO. Especially lucky. It lets you reroll all those very important rolls that lead up to a possible surprise attack (stealth, initiative, even surprisingly bad results on the attack die during a surprise attack).
    Last edited by Corran; 2017-08-19 at 09:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Paladin MAD multi class build

    I agree that an effort should be made to streamline the build. I'm thinking:

    Standard Human
    • 13 STR
    • 16 DEX
    • 15 CON
    • 10 INT
    • 10 WIS
    • 14 CHA

    Paladin 2/Warlock 3/Paladin +6/Warlock +9

    You start off with mail and a shield for 18 AC. Smite comes online as usual. At 3rd level you get 1 spell slot and a save or suck per short rest. 4th level gives you invocations (mage armor lets you keep 18 AC but without disadvantage on stealth), and can double your smite output. At 5th level, you can pick up Pact of the Chain for an invisible familiar that can provide advantage on every attack. 6th through 11th levels are just delayed Paladin. You get your first ASI at 7th, which can get you Resilient (CON). At 12th level, your ASIs catch up with a standard character (except that your last ASI and capstone are basically swapped).

    You end up with 6 invocations, 5 ASIs; 4 cantrips; 3 5th-level slots per short rest; 4 1st-level, 3 2nd-level, and 1 6th-level slots per long rest; and a Fighting Style.

    Cons: No sneak attack after 9th level (mitigated by Hex at 3rd level). No expertise or cunning action. No assassinate (mitigated by advantage once per turn after 5th level). No second fighting style or second wind, although getting these at 17th level is not much of a loss anyway. No action surge. No maneuvers, but you wouldn't have gotten them until 19th level anyway.
    Last edited by thoroughlyS; 2017-08-22 at 07:27 PM.
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