Defenders: The verdict

[Dragonexx]

Spoiler: Luke Cage's Speech

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The whole thing was kinda a cringy mixed bag for me. It sounds like it's about white privelage, but it's not. Though it is kinda ignorant. Regardless of choreography failures, in-universe, Danny is supposed to be a great martial artist who got where he is purely on hard work, training, and merit (kinda a pity that showing more of Kun-lun is out of the budget it seems, or that could have been included). On the money thing, Danny didn't really even care about the money. Throughout his series, he seriously acts like someone who doesn't understand the value or effect of money. Reclaiming his inheritance was more about attempting to reconnect with his family and being able to use his goddamn name, considering he turned down an offer of millions of dollars when the stipulation was that he change his name. Then there's the whole high class meal in the dojo. Also when he's barefoot, a guy offers to get him some shoes, which he turns down. Overall, it seems like he doesn't understand how what he does and how he looks makes others perceive him (walking into the Rand building looking like a hobo for one).

The one thing Cage has a point about was that it wasn't as black and what (no pun intended) as he initially thought it was, like when he claimed that the guys who was hired to clean up the hands crime scenes were evil, and was told that it was that, or starve.

Hopefully Iron Fist season 2 has better budget and production times, to fix these issues (and I want to actually see more than a few ****ing seconds of Danny's training!).

Spoiler: The ending

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Now why did they have to go and do that? The ending was good, with a little bait and switch, where you think it's Matt, but it's actually Danny.

Then surprise, Matt's shown alive. Couldn't that have waited until Daredevil S3?

Also, it looks like were getting the Punisher next.

[Slylizard]

On the last few scenes of the ending:

Spoiler: Ending

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I'm fairly certain that DD is in Kun Lun. I believe that the tunnels of dragon bone lead back to the eternal dragon's cave, and that they're actually his corpses as defeated by generations of Iron Fist. They needed the Iron Fist to break the 'door' to the tunnel down to the dragon bones, similar to him being the defender of the actual doorway, he's the key to the back door(s).

At least, that's how I see it.

[afroakuma]

On the last few scenes of the ending:

Spoiler

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He's not, though; he wakes up next to a nun and they call for "Maggie." Fairly certain there's also a cross kicking about. Wherever he is,
it's not K'un Lun. K'un Lun wouldn't make sense in any event, as it would force DD Season 3 to address his time spent in a mystical nonsense land.

[Red Fel]

In response to Red Fel's comments, something I think the show was implying.

Spoiler

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Kun'lan is not destroyed, but Danny was exiled and now all he can see when he goes back there is his fears. I think Gao is implying this, and it's moderately corroborated by a pictuer in one of the Finger scenes where they have this old ink drawing of a burnt down Kun'lan. Just my impression from the show, but it allayed my concerns about Gao and Danny's conversations.

I don't think that works, though.

Spoiler: Here's Why

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Okay, so there are two reasons why that doesn't sit right with me.

First: Danny wasn't exiled. He left. In fact, Davos (who is clearly not in this series because he went back to work for Jon Snow in Westeros) specifically left K'un-L'un to bring Danny back. Further: Why would K'un-L'un ever exile the Immortal Weapon specifically trained to defend them from the Hand?

Which leads to the second point: If a person (e.g. Danny) could be exiled in absentia, and thus be prevented from ever entering the "true" K'un-L'un, why would they even need an Iron Fist? If the only threat to K'un-L'un is the Hand, why not simply "exile" all of them? Boom, now nobody sworn to the Hand can ever enter K'un-L'un, and the whole place is safe.

See what I mean? Doesn't work.

On the last few scenes of the ending:

Spoiler: Ending

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I'm fairly certain that DD is in Kun Lun. I believe that the tunnels of dragon bone lead back to the eternal dragon's cave, and that they're actually his corpses as defeated by generations of Iron Fist. They needed the Iron Fist to break the 'door' to the tunnel down to the dragon bones, similar to him being the defender of the actual doorway, he's the key to the back door(s).

At least, that's how I see it.

I'm not so sure.

Spoiler: Here's Why

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That nurse at the end? She was wearing some kind of wimple. Traditionally, that's worn by Western (i.e. Christian) nuns. K'un-L'un was depicted as stereotypically Asian, possibly Buddhist. To my knowledge, Buddhist nuns don't wear headdresses. Also, the show depicted the monastery as being primarily (or exclusively) male. So it seems unlikely that Matt is in a monastic hospital in K'un-L'un.

Also, if he did go to K'un-L'un, he'd basically be trapped there, right? I mean, the gateway would close. Unless the one he found is somehow permanently open.

Also, if he trained in K'un-L'un, he'd be even more better than Danny than he already is. I mean, except for the actual Fist, DD has pretty much consistently out-performed IF in combat. Heck, he was able to solo Electra. He was able to fight off two Fingers while Luke and Jessica fought one. He's a better fighter than the Immortal Weapon, is the point, and him training in K'un-L'un would just be excessive.

EDIT:

Spoiler

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All the details I picked up, and I missed the name "Maggie." Man, I feel embarrassed.

The name should be familiar to fans of the comics.

Spoiler: Why?

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That's because Maggie is a nun that Matt Murdock has run into on multiple occasions.

Before she took her vows, though, her name was Maggie Murdock. She married a certain boxer, and then left him after their son was born.

So, yeah. More allegories incoming.

[Pex]

It was superduperawesomesticfreakingadelicious.

Just like with D&D I once again find myself on the opposite side of the so called majority Forum All Truth. I enjoyed all of it. I liked all the heroes. I'm glad the Hand story is concluded.

Whiny Iron Fist, Martyr Daredevil, Stupid Hand - Sorry, didn't hear that over all the cheering I was doing.

[SuperPanda]

So I agree with pretty much all of Red Fel's points still my own thoughts.

Spoiler: Things I loved.

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Pretty much all of Jessica and Luke's story beats were wonderful. About the only part of Luke's story that got me frustrated was him trying to keep Misty out of things - and even that was mild compared to what Matt was doing. Only part of Jessica's story which really bugged me was how small it was - She felt tacked on for a lot of the stuff going on which was a shame because I loved her interactions with the others. She just felt awfully under used.

Mostly I'd be echoing Fel in for more stuff.

I do differ in that I love Colleen's arch. I do think she's a far more interesting character than Danny but the actress nailed the performance at each step. The only problem I have with her arc is the writing and characterization of Iron Fist himself. Everything focused on Colleen has been A+ so far and I was glad to see her finally stop letting the Defenders treat her as a sidekick. I'm a bit worried that her plot line got so neatly wrapped up though, I hope she doesn't just vanish into the background.

Spoiler: Hand Grumbles

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I don't know how the Hand works in the comics and don't really care that much. I think they needed a few extra episodes using the fingers of the hand to draw in our heroes - particularly Luke and Jessica. Danny and Matt already have wonderful connections because this was basically season 2 of Iron Fist and season 2.5 of Daredevil already.

Jessica gets her "don't take the case" call and has her run in with Elektra- but she doesn't get much of an "its personal" arch till she finds out the Hand is threatening her "client" later on. Have people working for the fingers of the Hand offer to buy her off - because they clearly don't have any idea who she is - and have that piss her off enough to be invested in things. Have Luke's issues with "white hat" develope a bit more... I think what I'm saying is that I wanted another 2 or 3 episodes on the front end building towards things.

While I loved Sigourney Weaver's performance, I think her story beats could have been done better by Gao. Alexandria was a compelling and interesting character but never felt like the credible threat she was suppose to be. Even within the Hand - where she appears to rule to a degree through fear - she never seemed to earn her position. About the only leader of the Hand I've ever bought as a threat has been Gao and that is somewhat dimished watching her fight and seeing to being some basic telekinesis. I wanted to see Gao go full on mystic mojo and do things like walk up to Cage and cut his skin with her fingernails - Because if she hadn't attacked yet Luke Cage would not punch an old lady without reason. I was frustrated in IF when Bakudo appeared to diminish Gao because she'd been awesome on screen - so this is pretty much more of the same there.

It was not quite as fun as I was hoping but it was plenty fun. It focused far far more on Matt and Danny than on Luke or JJ. I noticed that Luke seemed to bond with Danny and reconnect with Jessica, but never really seemed to connect to Matt and Jessica did the opposite. I think this works for JJ since I don't think her stories would work as well if she had a Billionaire best bud offering to help pay rent while going forward Luke having a friend who could spot him some cash while he acts as a Hero for Hire works just fine.

[BWR]

It was almost OK.

A lot of little gripes which I don't have time to go into (maybe later) but the major issue is that the Hand always felt kind of useless and impotent, for all their obvious power in the shows, and this show did nothing to dispel that. IF is a self-important wuss, and kind of useless and pointless. Cage was the only character I really liked, in line with the solo shows, and for all the talk of legal repercussions, everyone gets off scott free. No explanation, no excuses, no attempt to clear things up or obstruct justice or anything, just a line that everything is fine.

The good bits are that they did tie everyone together rather neatly (the only good thing about the Hand), some of the fight scenes weren't too bad (the ones without Danny) and Cage is just a likeable guy.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Monks and other criticisms

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From how Gao described it, they wanted to get back to K'un-Lun. But they clearly did that, seeing as Danny found a bunch of dead monks when he was last there.

Those were not dead monks, they were dead Hand ninjas. So they did attack when the iron fist wasn't there, but the city held out even without him, although they probably took more casualties. So now the portal is closed again, and the Hand focus shifts to getting more substance.

But why would Alexandra, nearing death, waste the Substance on a Black Sky instead of herself? Help yourself, then get more Substance - there's plenty of time. Also, if they were all roughly the same age, why was Alexandra seemingly more decrepit than the rest of them? Also, what did it matter if any of them died before they secured more Substance - couldn't they just save the corpse, get the stuff, and revive, as per usual?

She happened to discover a terminal illness after reviving Elektra? Just bad luck. They could save the corpses, but that requires a lot of trust in your allies.

And if so, and this really bothered me, why did the Chaste never do this before? Seriously, it sounds like they've all been captured at some point or other - why did the Chaste not decapitate them then? Stick has proven incredibly kill-happy, and it's safe to assume he's not unique in that regard; why does the Chaste take people prisoner instead of executing them via decapitation?

Who says they don't? But it took a while to figure out that decapitation worked.

4. Writing. I won't get too exhaustive with it, but there were a handful of cringe-worthy lines. When finding the Chaste hideout, Colleen makes the comment that swords wouldn't be sharpened unless they were going to be used...Yeah, the reason you came here was because this guy might know something about The Hand. This isn't a store for a wall-hanger katana.

It's an antique, there's ten of them in the world. You don't sharpen that one for any ordinary fight, you use a cheap one. So it's an indication that they're not fighting any ordinary war.

Security. You'd think that as an ancient organization comprised of criminals and assassins, that The Hand would understand the value of good security. Instead their main base doesn't even have a rent-a-cop there. Midland is both their base and access to their ancient dragon graveyard, yet Jessica, Matthew, and Luke all waltz in without so much as a secretary asking if they have an appointment. And later when rescuing Iron Fist, they have to be stopped by The Hand themselves with no mooks for backup.

The security were all upstairs, 'Iron Fist in the boardroom' is an all hands on deck situation. And all of them lost anyways.

p

Overall this was a good show, although it could have been better. The Hand's depiction has been improving steadily since DD2, even if there was some missed opportunities.

Spoiler

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As is, nothing the hand can do can make a dent in Luke Cage. Elektra's only option is to punch him in the face and gets lucky enough that this knocks him out, otherwise she was in trouble.

There was potential here to make the Hand essentially mini bosses.

Sowande, 'gun runner' brings heavy weapons and maybe a few Judas rounds that can put a dent in Luke.

Murakami is even harder for DD to track than Nobu and good at sneaking around and attacking from the shadows in general.

Bakuto has tricks that disrupt Danny's chi and affect his focus.

Gao's fine as she is, and Elektra can stand in for Alexandra.

A bit video gamey, and possibly problematic to stage, but the action sometimes ended up stale as it was.

Spoiler: police

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Agreed on the police, towards the end I was wondering if they could get away with telling them that there was a weird terrorist gang based out of midland circle holding Danny Rand hostage. There are reasons why they don't (multiple dead police, potential for govt to get hold of substance), but I was still wondering. Also wondering how Misty got promoted after we last saw her beating up a witness (a witness, not a suspect) and getting a second one killed.

Spoiler: Hand

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I liked the hand better here and in IF than in DD2, their limitations and pragmatism added to their appeal rather than detracted from it. But they did need more of a threat to the Defenders here.

[Red Fel]

Responses and additional thoughts in spoilers, because obviously.

Spoiler

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Those were not dead monks, they were dead Hand ninjas. So they did attack when the iron fist wasn't there, but the city held out even without him, although they probably took more casualties. So now the portal is closed again, and the Hand focus shifts to getting more substance.

I... Don't remember that? I mean, it's possible, been a bit since I watched that episode of IF, but I don't remember that.

Even so, if it was the Hand who took the casualties, doesn't that pretty much obviate the need for an Iron Fist? I mean, if K'un-L'un can defend itself, why is he even a thing?

She happened to discover a terminal illness after reviving Elektra? Just bad luck.

Possible, I suppose.

They could save the corpses, but that requires a lot of trust in your allies.

Less "trust," more "mutually assured survival." The rest of the Fingers insisted that they rescue one another, and that makes sense - you may not get along, but you all need one another to function effectively. It's why previous coup attempts, mentioned by Gao, weren't kill attempts - they need Alexandra alive, just not necessarily in charge.

Who says they don't? But it took a while to figure out that decapitation worked.

The fact that the original five are still around. Or were, when Defenders started. That's what says the Chaste don't. The fact that the remaining four discussed the fact that they were all captured at one point or another. If they were captured, and were still around to talk about it, clearly the Chaste did not go in for decapitation.

At least not until Stick conveniently decided to do precisely that.

It's an antique, there's ten of them in the world. You don't sharpen that one for any ordinary fight, you use a cheap one. So it's an indication that they're not fighting any ordinary war.

If it's an antique, you don't use it. Use a fresh, new sword, made with good steel and modern methods. Unless it's Damascus or something, a modern weapon will probably be sturdier and sharper.

The security were all upstairs, 'Iron Fist in the boardroom' is an all hands on deck situation. And all of them lost anyways.

Even if that explains the daytime raid, it says nothing about the nighttime raid. This is an entire building filled with executives who are also ninja. Do you honestly mean to tell me that every single one, aside from one or two mooks, goes home for the night after a hard day's work? We've seen Gao - she never goes anywhere without her drivers and blind minions and what-not. I have to assume that Bakuto has a similar thing. And again, armies of ninja, why are they not protecting the place where all of their leaders are now gathered? Why was it completely empty that night?

I liked the hand better here and in IF than in DD2, their limitations and pragmatism added to their appeal rather than detracted from it. But they did need more of a threat to the Defenders here.

Yeah. Fact is, the Hand is a good enemy when it's mostly invisible. Facing off against one piece, one "Finger," works really well, as long as the rest is this nebulous always-in-the-background presence.

Think of the League of Shadows in the Nolan Batman films. Does Batman ever fight the entire League? Heck no. (Least I don't think so.) He fights a few elements, but the League is still out there, doing its thing and plotting. This makes the individual League members more memorable, and allows the League to survive.

This is where Defenders really messed the Hand up. They could have done that. Pick one element, one slice of the Hand to be doing this stuff. Heck, we've already established that there are different factions, and that they don't get along. (See Gao's drug runners versus Bakuto's recruitment cult center.) This could have been another faction. Going that route allows you to have one specific villain, stop their plan, and still let the Hand exist in the background.

Instead? Hand's gone. This was their whole plan - burrow under New York to find the bones of monsters. Also, city will collapse, tough luck. That's it, they failed and they're all gone now, sad trombone. And despite being an army of ninja - a fact I feel I keep having to point out - at no point did the heroes fight an army. They fought a few packs of mooks, then several bigshots.

Remember that Hospital scene? Claire does. The one with ninja swarming all over the freaking building. That's what an army of ninja should feel like. This wasn't that. Not even close. Some thugs and some minibosses. This wasn't an ancient and mystical order spanning history and the globe, this was a handful (no pun intended) of forgettable baddies and their faceless goons. And now the entire utility of the Hand as a plot device is gone.

The Hand could have been a bigger threat, a pervasive element. Instead, it was bland and overdone.

[Waker]

Who says they don't? But it took a while to figure out that decapitation worked.

Decapitation isn't exactly an unusual method of execution.

The security were all upstairs, 'Iron Fist in the boardroom' is an all hands on deck situation. And all of them lost anyways.

This building is both the seat of power for the Hand in New York and the gateway into their most important operation. I don't expect them to have an army, but do they really have no "normal" security guards in the building? No keycards or passcodes needed to ascend to the higher levels? Murdock ran up the stairs and Jones just took an elevator. That seems really lax.

[Erys]

I enjoyed it. Everyone felt very in character throughout and the character dynamics of the group seemed pretty spot on to me.

I also think I have some ideas regarding 'the substance'.

When you are first bathed you cannot be killed permanently- save decapitation... so long as the body is able to support life in its whole/natural form. Like we see with Nobu and Harold. But they need a whole barrel of the stuff for the first resurrection of someone and to 'rejuvenate' the body of someone who ultimately dies of old age.

In this vein of thinking Alexandra's gamble on the Black Sky makes sense.

I hope DD3 has Iron Fist filling in for Matt, at least at the start; though, how they explain Daredevil surviving the collapse could be a deal breaker by itself.

[Sapphire Guard]

Responses and additional thoughts in spoilers, because obviously.

Spoiler

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I... Don't remember that? I mean, it's possible, been a bit since I watched that episode of IF, but I don't remember that.

Even so, if it was the Hand who took the casualties, doesn't that pretty much obviate the need for an Iron Fist? I mean, if K'un-L'un can defend itself, why is he even a thing?

Spoiler

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It's explicit in the scene that the bodies are Hand. Having one good line of defence doesn't mean it's useless to have any others.

The fact that the original five are still around. Or were, when Defenders started. That's what says the Chaste don't. The fact that the remaining four discussed the fact that they were all captured at one point or another. If they were captured, and were still around to talk about it, clearly the Chaste did not go in for decapitation.

Depends on who and how they were captured. Sowande, assuming he was telling the truth, wasn't killed because his soldiers were laying siege to the building, he was a valuable hostage. Gao, also assuming she was telling the truth, spent most of a century being tortured. The others we don't know much about, they may have just been captured by someone other than the Chaste that didn't understand what they were.

If it's an antique, you don't use it. Use a fresh, new sword, made with good steel and modern methods. Unless it's Damascus or something, a modern weapon will probably be sturdier and sharper.

True, but under comic/tv logic, the ancestral weapon is usually the best one.

Even if that explains the daytime raid, it says nothing about the nighttime raid. This is an entire building filled with executives who are also ninja. Do you honestly mean to tell me that every single one, aside from one or two mooks, goes home for the night after a hard day's work? We've seen Gao - she never goes anywhere without her drivers and blind minions and what-not. I have to assume that Bakuto has a similar thing. And again, armies of ninja, why are they not protecting the place where all of their leaders are now gathered? Why was it completely empty that night?

They may not have many left at this point, their crews have been flattened the entire season, and they're fresh out of an all out war with the Chaste. Sowande's out of the equation by then, Murakami didn't bring much of a crew at all, and Gao and Bakuto haven't been shown to be that rich in raw muscle. But yes, they probably should have had more.

Remember that Hospital scene? Claire does. The one with ninja swarming all over the freaking building. That's what an army of ninja should feel like. This wasn't that. Not even close. Some thugs and some minibosses. This wasn't an ancient and mystical order spanning history and the globe, this was a handful (no pun intended) of forgettable baddies and their faceless goons. And now the entire utility of the Hand as a plot device is gone.

I agree to a point, but I never liked the Hand in DD2. Five ninjas in New York are scary, five hundred are just silly, especially when they're doing stuff like shooting arrows at police and sending a stupidly huge crew in full regalia to storm a hospital. We get DD panicking about the huge army of ninjas that mean imminent death, and then that giant army completely vanishes in the climax so that by the end it's just Nobu and four others.

In IF, whatever its flaws, they start acting in the shadows properly, manipulating via proxies and trying hard not to engage in a martial arts contest with the best martial artist in the world, Gao organises that tournament to distract him while she retrieves her chemist then goes to china to try to avoid him.

In Defenders, while they did miss their potential, there was still a level of subtlety that mattered, they're maneuvering through influence and connections as well as force.

Spoiler: Otherwise

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Danny does have a good point re Sowande that time, why didn't Matt hear him escaping?

[Legato Endless]

Yeah I'd agree with Afrokuma. I'm glad Netflix has stepped away from the 13 episode formula but this could have had another two episodes to flesh a few things out. Oh well, at least now maybe we'll be free of the Hand and be able to return to better villains. While the character interactions were fun, I actually think my favorite might be Matt and Jess. Their rapport clicked a lot better for me than Danny and Luke. I wouldn't mind some crossover from the two into each other's series going forward. It's not like it'd require much of a stretch for an investigator and lawyer (especially with Daredevil's urban mystery motif) to team up outside of kicking ass.

Also if this series confirms anything it's that Danny can never be left unattended by an adult.

Spoiler: Seriously?

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There were a lot of missteps, but the absolute crown has to go with Danny facing off against Electra at the Gate.

Electra: I need your fist to unlock this portal. I'm telling you this because you're dumb and won't listen to what I'm saying.

Danny: Damn. I'm fighting Electra. The only thing I need to do is not summon my power and she can't unlock the gate. Eh, this fight is tough, I think I'll try punching her right next to the gate anyway. Oh god I've hit the Gate!

Spoiler: Otherwise

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Danny does have a good point re Sowande that time, why didn't Matt hear him escaping?

He's been distracted with Electra's death and forgets about his powers. It's the same way a guy who can hear trained ninja's breathing in the middle of a battle is somehow unable to detect one investigator track him into an empty alleyway and noisily snap photos.

I also think I have some ideas regarding 'the substance'.

When you are first bathed you cannot be killed permanently- save decapitation... so long as the body is able to support life in its whole/natural form. Like we see with Nobu and Harold. But they need a whole barrel of the stuff for the first resurrection of someone and to 'rejuvenate' the body of someone who ultimately dies of old age.

In this vein of thinking Alexandra's gamble on the Black Sky makes sense.

I think it's just a question of chronology.

Spoiler: Black Sky

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We know Electra was resurrected months before the Defenders started. Considering Alexandra's obsession with the Black Sky, spending the last of their resources when they're already tunneling to another deposit makes sense. Alexandra didn't expect to fall ill suddenly, which is why everyone else (notably Gao) is puzzled when she accelerates the timeline and takes a less subtle approach to getting to the dragon fossil. We also know the body has to be some degree of intact for the substance to work. Decapitation and cremation prevent you from coming back. If Alexandra dies and decomposes enough getting the substance later will be too little too late.

[Dr.Samurai]

Spoiler: My thoughts.

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I didn't buy the importance of the Black Sky. She was basically just a ninja+. I didn't see any reason for her to actually win in that fight against the Defenders (when she kidnaps Danny). Matt holds his own against *TWO* Fingers of the Hand, as well as Elektra later on. Jessica hits Elektra with a couple of strikes that should have crippled the ninja, and why does a boot stomp from Elektra knock Luke Cage out all of a sudden? I didn't really see much to suggest that she was an ultimate weapon except for the writers making her that way. Does "the substance" (lol) make people super strong and invulnerable? (Maybe I'm forgetting that detail.)

Also, when she takes over for Alexandra the villain motivation becomes weak as ****.

Iron Fist...

Danny, Danny, Danny. What to say here? The acting still sucks. He's always jerking his head around like a bird, always trembling, speaking in hisses and whispers. He's still the most important thing ever (the Iron Fist, if you haven't heard it yet). Also, he sucks as a martial artist. And I don't just mean the actor. I mean... Danny Rand, the Iron Fist, sucks at fighting. Did he... beat anyone in the show? Anyone that wasn't a mook? Daredevil outshines him in every respect. His chi is always out of commission when he needs it. Elektra outsmarts him in the most obvious way. But I don't think he defeats any of the Fingers or Elektra. Despite being the most important character to the plot. It's just weird that the premise of his super power is that he is the most capable of defeating the Hand, and yet, he demonstrates the opposite when side-by-side to Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Daredevil and even Colleen. (Maybe he's the one that throws the japanese guy over the elevator, but I don't remember if it was him or Luke.)

Speaking of which, I thought Murakami was *awesome*. I liked his presence and demeanor. I wish he had more of an impact on the story. I felt Gao lost all of her menace as someone that does whatever Alexandra wants.

Anyways, there's a lot to gripe about the show, but it's pretty much all been covered by previous posters. I felt like Jessica's strength was muted for most of the season, except for the awesome car-through-window scene. And of course, the elevator scene. But right before that scene I was thinking "her punches should be incapacitating these mooks after one hit, if not killing them, but for some reason she doesn't seem so strong against Elektra or the mooks". Then she holds onto the elevator cable :). She's still my fave of the group and I think the show mostly did her justice.

Matt's sacrifice was... I don't know. I didn't care for it. It was made worse by the fact that Danny said he died for the city, which obviously isn't true. Very clearly not true, in Matt's own words. The scene was made all the more confusing because Elektra seems to be thoroughly evil up until moments before the explosion, where she's apologizing and admitting that she wants to be with him forever. Bleh.

Still, the show kept me watching. So there's that.

[Dragonus45]

I get a laugh about all the people ranting about privilege with Danny and that scene with Luke. Like somehow he was supposed to know the masked mooks waltzing into the massacre he was investigating to burn the place to the ground were really just a bunch of underprivileged kids who repeatedly turned down help from someone else and made their own life choices. How dare he punch them.

[gomipile]

Spoiler: Last episode/all episodes

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I would have liked it better if the writers had found a better overarching reason to fight the Hand than myustical mining-caused earthquakes. I mean, seriously.

They didn't need city destroying earthquakes to motivate the five seasons that set this up. the Defenders are supposed to fight street-level threats. they didn't need to escalate it this much. The way it was escalated is just dumb once you find out it's because a load-bearing dragon skeleton is supporting Manhattan for... no reason?

[Dr.Samurai]

I get a laugh about all the people ranting about privilege with Danny and that scene with Luke. Like somehow he was supposed to know the masked mooks waltzing into the massacre he was investigating to burn the place to the ground were really just a bunch of underprivileged kids who repeatedly turned down help from someone else and made their own life choices. How dare he punch them.

As someone that cringes when I hear the word, I get it. But I think the takeaway is that they are approaching the problem from two different directions. Luke is trying to figure out what's happening to the kids in Harlem, and Danny is trying to figure out what the evil global shadow organization is doing in New York. Their perspectives are very different. To Danny, these are loyal goons doing the evil bidding of their dark masters. And to Luke, these are kids just trying to survive.

I still didn't like it, lol. But it's a brief moment in the series.

[Pex]

It clicked.

It's the opposites personalities trope.

Daredevil - Martyr Complex. It's always about everyone else. Needs to hide behind a mask.
Iron Fist - Big ego. It's all about him. Will tell everyone repeatedly he's the Immortal Iron Fist.

Jessica Jones - Reluctant hero who hates on everyone and everything including herself. Doesn't want to use her powers.
Luke Cage - Loves everyone and everything and wants to help people because it's the right thing to do. Wants to use his powers.

[Red Fel]

It occurs to me just how much this series - and those leading up to it - was like a D&D campaign. Observe.

Spoiler: Dungeons and Defenders: An Allegory

Show

Okay. So there's this DM, let's call him Marvin. He wants to run a campaign in a custom setting, real-world but with superhero elements. So he rounds up several friends (okay, three friends and one cousin) and runs a few solo sessions with each before going into the campaign proper.

Spoiler: Charlie

Show

First, Marvin calls one of his old friends, whom we'll call Charlie. Charlie and Marvin go way back, so naturally, Charlie was a first-pick to test out this new setting.

Charlie is... Let's just say he's dramatic, with a capital Angst. He's a great player, but everything he does is so much. For example, Marvin asked Charlie for a character class, and Charlie responded that "You can't condense a character's essence down to a single word. He is necessarily complex, nuanced, and contradictory." Charlie decides that his character must be born of two worlds, torn between a deep desire to protect the innocent, and a furious lust to punish the guilty. After some discussion, Marvin says, "So, this character is like Batman?" Charlie scoffs. "No, of course not. Batman is a poor little rich boy out to avenge his parents, who can do whatever he wants without consequence because he's obscenely rich. This character is the everyman, the common clay; his actions have consequences because he can't make everything simply better by paying for it. His depth comes from faith, not just a revenge wish."

Charlie rolls rather well on his character, and spreads his points very evenly, with an emphasis on Wisdom. When Marvin asks him to pick a super power, Charlie asks for bonus senses, because he feels that "perceiving the world leads to greater understanding" or some other dramatic nonsense. Charlie insists, however, that his power should come with a price, because again, drama. So Marvin tells him his character is blind, but can sense what's around him, because Marvin really doesn't want to deal with an actual character limitation. Charlie is fine with this.

Because they're old friends, Marvin actually runs extra sessions with Charlie, to get his input and test out various elements for the setting. Charlie really likes the "heroes versus crime lords" module, which he feels gives him a tangible foe to fight, or as he puts it, "a dark mirror to my character's own struggle." But when Marvin brings out his "heroes versus ninjas" module, Charlie scoffs a bit. "Ninja? Really?" Charlie thinks it's a bit silly, and only gets into things when Marvin decides to add a conflicted love interest to the story, which Charlie enjoys very much, as it adds to the drama.

Spoiler: Krysten

Show

Krysten lives in Marvin's apartment complex. She and Marvin have run into each other a few times and talked shop; she plays in other games, with other DMs, but when Marvin mentions a real-world-based setting, he has her interest. When he asks for her character concept, she explains simply, "Private investigator."

Krysten is what we call a "good roleplayer." She has a character concept and remains extremely consistent. Her concept, in this case, is the somewhat-archetypical jerk with a heart of gold and a damaged backstory. But when Marvin mentions superhero elements, and that she has to pick a power, Krysten groans. "I thought this was supposed to be realistic," she mutters. "Fine. Make her strong, or something." The powers are an afterthought, and she really doesn't like them as part of her character.

That said, Marvin gives her exactly what she wanted - a gritty detective story exploring her character's dark, traumatic past. She absolutely loves it. It's character-driven and compelling. And when he tells her he's going to build it into a larger campaign, she's in.

Spoiler: Mike

Show

Mike is an older gamer, who mostly plays for the social aspect. He's what you'd call a "good guy" or team player; he's there to hang out with friends, and usually plays a force multiplier to make the rest of the party special. He always plays a moral character, and always plays a Paladin. When Marvin tells him there are no Paladins in this setting, Mike laughs and says, "Then just put 'Paladin' in quotation marks."

Mike can be really cheesy sometimes.

Mike names his character Luke, because, "Jedi, you know? Good guys." Marvin declines to get into that debate. Mike rolls outrageously well on his character, and has absurd Str, Con, Wis, and Cha, as well as solid Dex and Int. When asked to pick a super power, he says, "Let's just make everything bigger, you know? Big and tough. And let's say, perfect teeth."

Mike can be really cheesy sometimes.

Mike's a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a solo campaign. He's used to being a team player, and generally avoiding the limelight, but Marvin assures him it will be worth it. Marvin gives Mike a story in which Mike's character, escaped from prison, tries to make good in his old neighborhood. ("Ooh, a redemption arc, awesome!") It's a campy, cheesy, but uplifting romp about Mike's character realizing the need to stand for and help other people. By the end of it, Mike's character takes responsibility for his own actions.

Mike had a blast, and is ready to retire his character. But Marvin says, "Remember how I promised you'd get a team game?" With that, Mike is up for the campaign sessions.

Spoiler: Finn

Show

Finn is Marvin's younger cousin. Much younger. Finn is staying with Marvin for the summer, and really wants to be involved in this awesome superhero game. So Marvin helps Finn come up with a concept.

"I want him to be a living weapon!" Finn says. "Awesome and mystical and super important!" Finn wants a martial artist, he says, with years of training and also tons of money and importance. "So, this character is like Batman?" Marvin asks, feeling flashbacks to his session with Charlie. "Yes!" says Finn, "But so much better, because he has a magical fist that totally breaks everything!" Finn is so obsessed with this fist that he insists on dumping his character points (Marvin didn't make him roll, because cousin) into Dex. Finn claims he won't need to be smart, or clever, or durable, just fast and armed with a magic fist.

Finn looks through Marvin's notes (which he really shouldn't) and insists that Marvin run the module with the ninjas (which Charlie hated). Marvin does so. Finn basically ignores the love interest, because, "Cool, ninjas!" Finn's character goes around telling everyone how important he is, and becomes frustrated that people don't believe him. ("Your character was away training, remember? They don't know you." "They should, I'm the hero!") But then Finn fights a bunch of ninjas, so he's happy.

Spoiler: The Campaign

Show

Marvin gets Charlie, Krysten, Mike, and Finn together for the session. He starts with a few character-specific moments, which they all seem to enjoy (although Finn is extremely impatient), before the first big campaign moment.

Marvin: Okay. Mike, you're investigating the building because of the kid you failed to save. Krysten, you're there to figure out what your client's husband knew. Charlie, you're following Krysten. And Finn, why did you say-

Finn: I'm there because I'm gonna tell them that I'll sue them and they'll be super impressed and surrender! Me first!

Marvin: Okay, fine, go.

Finn: I go in and tell them I've got them dead to rights and they need to surrender.

Marvin: They attack you.

Finn: No fair!

Mike: Do I show up to help?

Marvin: Sure. So do Charlie and Krysten. Hey, Charlie, roll Perception.

Charlie: Natural 20.

Marvin: The attacker coming at you breathes like your dead girlfriend.

Charlie: Angst!

Yes, at Finn's pre-game insistence, this is an extension of the ninja module.

The party escapes and retires to a restaurant. Finn, excited to finally have the team-up, switches from his usual "I'm the most important and the hero" attitude to "hey we're all PCs let's team up and I'll be the leader." Marvin, worried about this, re-introduces Charlie's old mentor ("Good touch, great drama, Matthew hates this guy") who takes Charlie's character aside to insist that he be leader. Mike is kind of stoked, because he likes this team idea. Krysten, on the other hand, is officially bored, because she signed up for a character-driven detective drama, not a superhero-mystical-ninja crap. She wanders into the other room to make some phone calls. Marvin pauses the table, goes after her, and insists that this will move her character forward. He even gives her a side scene creating motivation. Mollified, Krysten returns to the table.

And then more superhero-mystical-ninja-crap.

Finn insists that he needs to be the central character, and to mollify his cousin, Marvin agrees. Charlie insists there needs to be more drama, so Marvin gives the dead girlfriend a bigger role. Mike is just having fun with everyone - although not so much with Finn, who kind of annoys him - so he's pretty easygoing. But Krysten remains a bit put off by the tonal shift, and just sort of follows the rest around and snarks a bit.

Finally, they reach the climax. Finn insists on fighting the last boss solo, which does not go well. The rest of the team shows up, and then Marvin takes out a timer. "There are bombs upstairs," he says. "You have until this timer goes down to escape from the building, or your characters die." Of course, Marvin doesn't plan to kill the PCs, but he feels it adds to the tension.

Charlie insists that the rest of the team go without him. Having figured out Finn pretty well, he passes him a note that says, "Matthew is going to stay behind. If you get everyone else out, that means the leader is gone and you get to be the leader." Finn reads the note, then insists that the rest of the team evacuate, believing that this will make him leader. Charlie is given a touching death scene as the building collapses.

Finn does not become leader.

Marvin gives each of the characters a quick resolution. Mike's character goes back home to resume his life. Krysten's character gets back to sleuthing. ("About time," she grumbles.) Finn has no idea what his character should do next, so he just says, "I meditate or something." And after everyone leaves, Marvin reveals to Charlie that Matthew somehow survived the explosion.

They all expect to come back for more one-on-one sessions.

I mean, am I wrong? Does it not feel like DD was a character written by an angst-happy theater major, LC by someone who just wanted to have fun with friends, JJ by someone who was clearly in the wrong campaign, and IF by someone really immature, easily distracted, and overly self-important, who is being coddled by the DM? Am I the only one who feels that way?

[Dr.Samurai]

Lmfao, no Red Fel, I think you are spot on!! 😂

[Waker]

Red, that description was great. Some of those lines, "Finn did not become the leader", had me laughing pretty hard.

[Lector87]

Red Fel, I am subbing to this thread just so I can come back and read all that once I've finished the series.

Your character summaries are spot on.

[paddyfool]

Genius post, Red Fel.

[Lord Ruby34]

I don't think that works, though.

Spoiler: Here's Why

Show

Okay, so there are two reasons why that doesn't sit right with me.

First: Danny wasn't exiled. He left. In fact, Davos (who is clearly not in this series because he went back to work for Jon Snow in Westeros) specifically left K'un-L'un to bring Danny back. Further: Why would K'un-L'un ever exile the Immortal Weapon specifically trained to defend them from the Hand?

Which leads to the second point: If a person (e.g. Danny) could be exiled in absentia, and thus be prevented from ever entering the "true" K'un-L'un, why would they even need an Iron Fist? If the only threat to K'un-L'un is the Hand, why not simply "exile" all of them? Boom, now nobody sworn to the Hand can ever enter K'un-L'un, and the whole place is safe.

See what I mean? Doesn't work.

Spoiler

Show

I'm not sure it's what happened, but those are the narrative threads that I'm picking up, and it could work.

Anyone who leaves is exiled, you don't get to come back to K'un-L'un. So no going back for Davos either, but the Monks need to actually know who, specifically, they're exiling for whatever mystic kung-fu magic they do to work.

[paddyfool]

Spoiler

Show

I'm not sure it's what happened, but those are the narrative threads that I'm picking up, and it could work.

Anyone who leaves is exiled, you don't get to come back to K'un-L'un. So no going back for Davos either, but the Monks need to actually know who, specifically, they're exiling for whatever mystic kung-fu magic they do to work.

Spoiler

Show

In the comics, while Danny was away, the Thunderer , Davos' father and Danny's teacher, stood in for him guarding K'un L'un.

[afroakuma]

So let's talk about what ultimately undermined The Defenders as a series, and in a broader sense bruised the Marvel Netflix project: lack of a cohesive vision. The resulting errors not just in minute continuity but in broad-strokes elements and refusal to make commitments on behalf of future projects give us... well, things that could have come off much better.

Black Sky

Spoiler

Show

The first time we see a Black Sky, it's a child, referred to by Stick as "it" and suggested to be a weapon so dangerous that it had to be killed. In Daredevil's second season, we get the eerie scenes involving the people whose blood is being harvested by the Hand, and the strange,
almost demonic "mind control" they seem to be caught under. This blood appears to be relevant to the process of "activating" a Black Sky,
as Elektra was identified as one and the blood was being harvested before she ever got stabbed.

So what's the point of a Black Sky? I mean, sure, you get a Hand ninja +1 out of it, but one arguably less fanatical than your standard-issue Hand goons and really not any better than, say, guns... poison... explosions... the "ultimate weapon" is just a mild superhuman in a world that has seen Steve Rogers and more. What makes her such an essential stepping stone to their plans?

Daredevil never clarified the nature of the Black Sky as a weapon. There were some mood-related implications that it might be something more otherworldly, and that would have been a much more excellent payoff. Instead, Alexandra commits the last of their "resources" to a tool that's employed for bog-standard assassinations targeting architects and the like. The Hand has Sowande, who can ostensibly murder with a couple of touches; Madame Gao, telekinetic witch; and a legion of people with pointy objects, guns, and no qualms about getting a bit dead in the line of duty. At no point does the Black Sky justify her existence; at best, she's able to retrieve the Iron Fist, but not any moreso than a Hand task force could have done in the same circumstances. Efficiency, maybe?

The Black Sky should have played up the unnerving and vaguely-demonic qualities.

Madame Gao

Spoiler

Show

Wai Ching Ho is still too good for the shows that contain her. Gao is effectively used in Daredevil, where she tells Leland Owlsley that she plans to return home to ponder her next moves. China? No, she corrects him, a considerable distance further. That's K'un Lun, K'un Zi,
other places of that nature. At the time, we followed this implication clearly. However, come Iron Fist, we discover that she is a leader of the Hand (having been presented as unrelated to the Hand in the first and second seasons of Daredevil) and thus an enemy of K'un Lun, presumably forbidden to return. Doesn't rule her out of one of the other cities, of course. That's why The Defenders comes in to tell us that she's definitely from K'un Lun and her goal is to return there. Things don't line up anymore.

What happened? Well, the big mistake was aligning Gao with the Hand and making her just one of its Fingers. This is good insofar as it brought her in as a foe to the Iron Fist, but creates a clumsy disconnect in which three Fingers of the Hand were operating in New York City for unrelated reasons, with a fourth present and accounted for. Bakuto is running his recruitment camp and hates Gao, who is selling heroin and keeps her activities separate from Nobu, representing Murakami, who was to secure the Midland Circle site for the Hand and also imports the first Black Sky (and tries to recruit the second)... and then we find out the Black Sky is Alexandra's idea. Remember what happened last time all five Fingers of the Hand came together? Cause that's four, and all they got was a mildly improved ninja with loyalty programming glitches and a big hole in the ground.

Looping Gao in with the Hand does weird things to past narratives and underserves the character in The Defenders as well. She always acts like she has better things to be doing than wrangling idiot ninjas.

We Must Stop You

Spoiler

Show

Boy oh boy the show whiffs this one hard. The reason Jessica Jones is brought in to confront the Hand's plans is because an architect ran off. He kills himself. Why did he kill himself? He discovered criminal activity below a building he designed. Case closed.

Why is Luke Cage involved? Harlem youths were being exploited to clean up Hand mess sites. Why the Hand would risk this when they have hundreds of their own disposable and loyal operatives is anyone's guess, but the larger point is that as of the time Luke figures this out,
the Hand is out of the business of needing cleanup crew for the foreseeable future. Case closed.

Ah, but the Hand is a threat to the entire isle of Manhattan! If they mine those dragon bones, the cavern under Manhattan will weaken and collapse. Eventually, mind you, not in any short frame of time - the villains even make this clear. If they'd take the time to bring in materials to shore up the pit (or, say, blow up their own empty building in a controlled fashion to fill it in after they're gone) then there's literally no consequence to their plans.

Do we really have to stop them? Uh... I'm kind of hard-pressed to think of a reason why that isn't "because they're the badguys." A more compelling motive than "collecting immortality powder from under New York City" would have been really appreciated - but apparently we lacked the time for interesting motives. Speaking of which...

Fingers

Spoiler

Show

Way to waste a Sigourney Weaver, folks. After some brilliant setup and excellent character scenes in episodes 3 and 4, she's driven off the rails hard in 5 and 6 as a setup for her elimination by Elektra. To say the Black Sky makes a less compelling villain is a grievous understatement. Once again, there were great opportunities to make use of Ms. Weaver (a black belt in real life) wasted because someone had the bright idea for a final confrontation between Elektra and Daredevil.

Sowande has his abilities talked up shortly before he gets ganked offscreen, in a fight we really should have been privy to. Yes, it's a mildly funny beat to have Luke return with the man who thought he could break him, but did we really need to do Black Dude Dies First?

Murakami is just a generic Hand ninja - he displays no special abilities and is underwhelming to a fault. Remember when Nobu fought Matt and it was a brutal, bloody battle with a fiery outcome? How the mighty have flatlined.

As for Bakuto, I just hate him. I find him a waste of space as a character, pointlessly smug and creating flawed conflicts to cover for the lack of better ones. His presence as the fifth Finger feels obligatory, as though they were checking off people who still lived and could plausibly count as Hand leaders and noticed he vanished at the end of Iron Fist. He goads Colleen frequently, sure, but arguably that makes him less effective.
Oh yes, and once again, the later series splashes the narrative of the earlier one, as Bakuto's story about his Hand upbringing, seeing the film of the Iron Fist, that's all now crap. If he's a Finger, he's as old as they are, originates in K'un Lun, and has personally met several Iron Fists before. He also tried to recruit Danny Rand well before the Hand knew they needed themselves the dumbest man in New York.

Daredevil

Spoiler

Show

Why even pretend for ten minutes that he's not coming back if we have his series announced? Put his friends grieving in the first episode of his own show, don't drag out the ending to this one on what we already know to be nonsense.

And This Just Bugs Me...

Spoiler

Show

I know they never will, but it would be nice to see some nod to the broader cinematic universe beyond "the Incident."
The villains are trying to pull off a scheme that literally shakes the earth in Manhattan; they should acknowledge why they aren't worried about Tony Stark showing up. I'm not asking for expensive actors to be dragged in for a cameo, but I do think we can take a moment to remember that the Avengers' existence within this universe is an established fact. This city in particular feels like it would need some acknowledgement.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure there's a higher directive telling them not to speak of such things - Feige has alluded to such a no-crossover policy. What can ya do?

Blargh... I have a few things I could say better but it's very late and I'm tired. I may try again tomorrow.

[Red Fel]

Black Sky

Spoiler

Show

The first time we see a Black Sky, it's a child, referred to by Stick as "it" and suggested to be a weapon so dangerous that it had to be killed. In Daredevil's second season, we get the eerie scenes involving the people whose blood is being harvested by the Hand, and the strange,
almost demonic "mind control" they seem to be caught under. This blood appears to be relevant to the process of "activating" a Black Sky,
as Elektra was identified as one and the blood was being harvested before she ever got stabbed.

So what's the point of a Black Sky? I mean, sure, you get a Hand ninja +1 out of it, but one arguably less fanatical than your standard-issue Hand goons and really not any better than, say, guns... poison... explosions... the "ultimate weapon" is just a mild superhuman in a world that has seen Steve Rogers and more. What makes her such an essential stepping stone to their plans?

Daredevil never clarified the nature of the Black Sky as a weapon. There were some mood-related implications that it might be something more otherworldly, and that would have been a much more excellent payoff. Instead, Alexandra commits the last of their "resources" to a tool that's employed for bog-standard assassinations targeting architects and the like. The Hand has Sowande, who can ostensibly murder with a couple of touches; Madame Gao, telekinetic witch; and a legion of people with pointy objects, guns, and no qualms about getting a bit dead in the line of duty. At no point does the Black Sky justify her existence; at best, she's able to retrieve the Iron Fist, but not any moreso than a Hand task force could have done in the same circumstances. Efficiency, maybe?

The Black Sky should have played up the unnerving and vaguely-demonic qualities.

Fingers

Spoiler

Show

Way to waste a Sigourney Weaver, folks. After some brilliant setup and excellent character scenes in episodes 3 and 4, she's driven off the rails hard in 5 and 6 as a setup for her elimination by Elektra. To say the Black Sky makes a less compelling villain is a grievous understatement. Once again, there were great opportunities to make use of Ms. Weaver (a black belt in real life) wasted because someone had the bright idea for a final confrontation between Elektra and Daredevil.

Sowande has his abilities talked up shortly before he gets ganked offscreen, in a fight we really should have been privy to. Yes, it's a mildly funny beat to have Luke return with the man who thought he could break him, but did we really need to do Black Dude Dies First?

Murakami is just a generic Hand ninja - he displays no special abilities and is underwhelming to a fault. Remember when Nobu fought Matt and it was a brutal, bloody battle with a fiery outcome? How the mighty have flatlined.

As for Bakuto, I just hate him. I find him a waste of space as a character, pointlessly smug and creating flawed conflicts to cover for the lack of better ones. His presence as the fifth Finger feels obligatory, as though they were checking off people who still lived and could plausibly count as Hand leaders and noticed he vanished at the end of Iron Fist. He goads Colleen frequently, sure, but arguably that makes him less effective.
Oh yes, and once again, the later series splashes the narrative of the earlier one, as Bakuto's story about his Hand upbringing, seeing the film of the Iron Fist, that's all now crap. If he's a Finger, he's as old as they are, originates in K'un Lun, and has personally met several Iron Fists before. He also tried to recruit Danny Rand well before the Hand knew they needed themselves the dumbest man in New York.

Spoiler

Show

I agree. I feel like there's a lot of talking up - a lot of the "informed ability" trope, where a thing is scary or a person is powerful, not because we see them being scary or powerful, but because we're told.

Aside from Gao, whose abilities we have seen in previous series and seems to be legitimately supernatural to some degree, everything about the Hand that doesn't concern resurrection is, at best, superlative martial arts. That's honestly not that intimidating when we actually see it in action, so all the big talk immediately feels hollow.

The characters themselves - specifically, the Fingers - are also poorly fleshed out. As you mentioned, Gao's motivations seem to shift annoyingly, but even that is only a fraction of a character. And Defenders isn't the first to have this issue. For example, in Iron Fist, Danny actually fought the Bride of Nine Spiders and Zhou Cheng. How cool would that have been to expand on those characters? Another Immortal Weapon, and the reincarnation of a killer of past Iron Fists? Instead, they're good for one fight and then discarded.

The Fingers, with the exception of Gao and, to a lesser degree, Bakuto (only because we've seen him before, and even then he was barely characterized) suffer this same problem. We don't know them. We're told how menacing they are. But aside from one monologue about a siege and one wolf-dissection, we really have nothing to go on. And the fact that Luke can take out Sowande off-camera, and Matt can handle two of them at once, really does nothing for them. They're flat at best, and hollow at worst.

Also, I totally didn't realize that Weaver had a martial arts background until you mentioned it. Wow, yeah, not only was her acting underutilized, so was her physical prowess. At least they took advantage of her height in a couple of scenes (she is incredibly tall), but even that was under-used. Pity.

Madame Gao

Spoiler

Show

Wai Ching Ho is still too good for the shows that contain her. Gao is effectively used in Daredevil, where she tells Leland Owlsley that she plans to return home to ponder her next moves. China? No, she corrects him, a considerable distance further. That's K'un Lun, K'un Zi,
other places of that nature. At the time, we followed this implication clearly. However, come Iron Fist, we discover that she is a leader of the Hand (having been presented as unrelated to the Hand in the first and second seasons of Daredevil) and thus an enemy of K'un Lun, presumably forbidden to return. Doesn't rule her out of one of the other cities, of course. That's why The Defenders comes in to tell us that she's definitely from K'un Lun and her goal is to return there. Things don't line up anymore.

What happened? Well, the big mistake was aligning Gao with the Hand and making her just one of its Fingers. This is good insofar as it brought her in as a foe to the Iron Fist, but creates a clumsy disconnect in which three Fingers of the Hand were operating in New York City for unrelated reasons, with a fourth present and accounted for. Bakuto is running his recruitment camp and hates Gao, who is selling heroin and keeps her activities separate from Nobu, representing Murakami, who was to secure the Midland Circle site for the Hand and also imports the first Black Sky (and tries to recruit the second)... and then we find out the Black Sky is Alexandra's idea. Remember what happened last time all five Fingers of the Hand came together? Cause that's four, and all they got was a mildly improved ninja with loyalty programming glitches and a big hole in the ground.

Looping Gao in with the Hand does weird things to past narratives and underserves the character in The Defenders as well. She always acts like she has better things to be doing than wrangling idiot ninjas.

Spoiler

Show

So much this.

Let's face it, scheming murderous bastard in the shadows is a thing these shows have done a lot. As I mentioned, Kingpin, Mariah, Meachum - it's been done, with varying degrees of sanity. But Gao was legitimately different. She felt like she was part of something bigger, darker, more mysterious. Each time she appeared she was intimidating. She was a perfect example of showing, not just telling.

Think of it this way. In Dragon Ball Z, when Nappa and Vegeta first arrive on Earth, Nappa goes around destroying everything and murders several main characters. He's this big, bruising, intimidating figure whose terrible power is clearly visible. And he grovels before the smaller, slimmer Vegeta. This immediately shows the viewer just how dangerous Vegeta must be, despite his size and the fact that we haven't seen him do anything. (Not counting bug planet filler.)

That was Kingpin and Gao, when Gao was first introduced. Kingpin was a known, terrible factor. And he showed the utmost deference to this mysterious woman. He was Nappa, she was Vegeta, and we knew she was bad news. And that was awesome.

Even in Iron Fist, where he challenges her, the show makes clear just how bad it would be if he faced her directly. She commands these other, numerous, extremely dangerous fighters - again, Nappas to her Vegeta. Again, awesome.

And suddenly, in this show, for no real reason, she becomes meek and subservient to Alexandra. Somehow, it doesn't convey the Nappa-Vegeta dynamic. Probably because, despite being menacing, Alexandra really doesn't give off the same mysterious, malicious, I-will-definitely-destroy-you vibe. Our first encounter with her highlights just how feeble and desperate Alexandra is, which doesn't make her more menacing.

They take Gao, who was legitimately solid, dangerous, and mysterious, and turn her into a pawn. The only bright side in all of this is that, unlike all of her colleagues, we don't actually see Gao die. Three are decapitated, one is impaled at the bottom of an elevator shaft, but we never actually see Gao injured - so she might come back.

But yeah. Gao was the only part of the Hand - in this or previous series - that felt truly ominous. It's almost embarrassing that they had others operating in New York at the same time, and actually takes away from her character.

[Chromascope3D]

So, I've never read comics Iron Fist, but my impression was that he's fairly upbeat and cheerful most of the time, and while the character grew on me a bit during Episode 4 when he did finally loosen his belt and show this side of his personality, why is he so much of a grouch the other 90% of the time he's on screen, especially when (to me, at least) sullen angery Finn is far less convincing or interesting than jovial smartass Finn?

[Lector87]

So, I've never read comics Iron Fist, but my impression was that he's fairly upbeat and cheerful most of the time, and while the character grew on me a bit during Episode 4 when he did finally loosen his belt and show this side of his personality, why is he so much of a grouch the other 90% of the time he's on screen, especially when (to me, at least) sullen angery Finn is far less convincing or interesting than jovial smartass Finn?

Based on how he came off in the first couple episodes of his series - barefoot, sleeping in a park, cheerfully indifferent to societal standards, principled, compassionate - I was really hoping he was a Holy Fool type of character. Instead he turned into an Angsty Adolescent. It's like the person who wrote the first episode was laid off before they finished the series.

[Rynjin]

Spoiler

Show

or example, in Iron Fist, Danny actually fought the Bride of Nine Spiders and Zhou Cheng. How cool would that have been to expand on those characters? Another Immortal Weapon, and the reincarnation of a killer of past Iron Fists? Instead, they're good for one fight and then discarded.

Spoiler

Show

Whoa, wait, where was Zhou Cheng in Iron Fist? I remember the bastardized Bride, but I don't remember a dragon coming out of anybody's throat.

Edit: Huh? Bargain Bin Jackie Chan was supposed to be Cheng?

God dammit, **** the Iron Fist show. It's like they went out of their way to ruin everything that could have been cool.

So, I've never read comics Iron Fist, but my impression was that he's fairly upbeat and cheerful most of the time, and while the character grew on me a bit during Episode 4 when he did finally loosen his belt and show this side of his personality, why is he so much of a grouch the other 90% of the time he's on screen, especially when (to me, at least) sullen angery Finn is far less convincing or interesting than jovial smartass Finn?

Danny's not always cheerful, but one really ****ty comic series aside (The Living Weapon) he's usually really optimistic and idealistic. Even the old 70's stick up his ass Iron Fist actually had fun challenging his abilities and a "never say die" attitude.

Daniel "Snarks-a-lot" Rand is the more modern interpretation (the currently ongoing Power Man/Iron Fist series is real good), and he's way more fun to watch and read about than Sad Sack Rand.

I have no idea where they pulled Sad Sack Rand from. I'm guessing The Living Weapon since they're using the same "X-Ray Light" Iron Fist that was in that series. It'd make sense. Everything about Living Weapon sucked, so of course that's the version they use. Fits with their MO in adapting the Iron Fist stuff. At least Living Weapon Danny had a REASON to be angsty. Your girlfriend miscarrying and then leaving you will do that to a man. This Danny is sad because...ninjas exist, I guess.