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    Default Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Vorlon

    "Who. Are. You?"

    Size/Type: Huge Outsider (incorporeal, First One, native, psionic)
    Hit Dice: 12d8+60 (114 hp)
    Initiative: +9
    Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) (20 squares)
    Armor Class: 18 (+5 Dex, +5 deflection, -2 size), touch 18, flat-footed 13
    Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+25
    Attack: Incorporeal tentacle +15 melee (1d8+5)
    Full Attack: 8 incorporeal tentacles +15 melee (1d8+5)
    Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
    Special Attacks: Celestial guise, constrict, improved grab, mind piece, psionics, psi-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/-, darkvision 60 ft., encounter suit, first one traits, hive mind, incorporeal traits, mind over matter, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10, and sonic 10, telepathy 300 ft., vorlon ship
    Saves: Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +15
    Abilities: Str -, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20
    Skills: Autohypnosis +22, Concentration +20, Craft (chemical, mechanical, pharmaceutical) +20, Diplomacy +22, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (earth and life sciences, physical sciences, technology) +20, Knowledge (psionics) +22, Psicraft +22, Sense Motive +20
    Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Overchannel
    Environment: Any interplanetary
    Organization: Solitary or pair
    Challenge Rating: 12
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always lawful (any)
    Advancement:
    Level Adjustment:

    The ambassador's techno-organic encounter suit opens at the head to release a blinding light. A form emerges and flies up into the air - either a shining celestial being, or a many-tentacled creature of pure psionic energy.

    The vorlons are an ancient race devoted to the concept of Order, locked in an eternal philosophical battle with their Chaotic enemies the Shadows. These two elder civilisations use the younger races as pawns in their cosmic debate - it was in fact the Vorlons that first engineered humanoids with the capacity to use psionics.

    Vorlons rarely emerge from their bulky, techno-organic encounter suits when dealing with other races. On the occasions they do emerge they assume the forms of celestial beings (images that they have ingrained in the genetic memory of the younger races). A Vorlon's true form is a great luminous cephalopod surrounded by particles of light - they long ago evolved beyond their corporeal bodies and are now creatures of pure thought.

    Vorlons speak Common, their own language, and at least five other languages (typically those of the younger humanoid races) but generally rely on their encounter suits' translators and their innate telepathy. They are notorious for their cryptic utterances.

    Combat
    Vorlons prefer to avoid combat through manipulation but know they have little to fear from the younger races. On the occasions they are drawn into combat they rarely deign to emerge from their encounter suits, instead preferring to humble enemies with their mighty psionic powers. A truly enraged vorlon is a terrible foe, emerging from its encounter suit and foregoing the use of its powers to strike enemies with mighty blows.

    Celestial Guise (Su)
    A vorlon that emerges from its encounter suit may attempt to psionically influence viewers into perceiving it as a celestial being. Any humanoid that fails a Will save (DC 21) sees the vorlon as a benevolent entity from the Outer Planes (treat the humanoid as both enthralled and charmed by the vorlon). A creature that successfully saves against this ability is immune to the celestial guise of that vorlon for 24 hours. The vorlon may suppress or reactivate this ability as a free action. This is a mind-affecting charm effect gaze attack. The save DC is Charisma-based. Certain creatures (e.g. humanoids allied with the Shadows) are immune to this effect.

    Constrict (Ex)
    A vorlon deals 1d8+5 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

    Encounter Suit (Ex)
    A vorlon's encounter suit is Medium size and offers secrecy if no real protection to the creature. While in the suit a vorlon may not make any natural attacks and moves at a land speed of 10 feet. Furthermore, the suit possesses a built-in translator that provides a constant tongues effect (caster level 12th). A vorlon may enter or exit its suit as a full-round action, and fits completely in a suit despite their relative sizes due to its incorporeal nature.

    Hive Mind (Ex)
    All vorlons are in constant communication, as if by telepathic bond. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No vorlon in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.

    Improved Grab (Ex)
    To use this ability, a vorlon must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

    Mind Over Matter (Ex)
    A vorlon's tentacle attacks overcome damage reduction of any type, ignore armour bonuses (armour, shield, and natural armour bonuses) to Armour Class and are considered to have the ghost touch ability. This allows a vorlon to make grapple checks, unlike other incorporeal creatures. A vorlon uses its Charisma modifier instead of its Strength modifier on damage rolls and grapple checks.

    Mind Piece (Su)
    Vorlons can "break off" pieces of their own minds and store them in humanoids. As a full-round action a vorlon can either deposit a piece of its own mind in a humanoid within 30 feet or retrieve a piece (whether its own or another vorlon's) from that humanoid. In either case the humanoid can make a Will save (DC 21) to prevent this effect. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    A vorlon has a permanent telepathic bond with all humanoids containing a piece of its mind. Furthermore, if the vorlon is killed it may rejuvenate itself from one of those pieces after 1d4 months (it may remain hidden in the humanoid for as long as it wishes, and when it emerges the humanoid is unharmed). A vorlon hidden in this way is not in contact with the vorlon hive mind, though it may use its dream psi-like ability on its host. A vorlon may have a number of mind pieces equal to its Charisma modifier.

    Psionics
    A vorlon manifests powers as a 12th-level psion. They may learn powers from the psion power list and the clairsentience, psychokinesis, and telepath disciplines.

    Psi-Like Abilities
    At will-detect thoughts (DC 17), dream. Caster level 12th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    Vorlon Ship (Ex)
    Each vorlon is bound to a particular vorlon ship. They possess a constant telepathic bond with each other and the ship is utterly loyal to its master.

    First Ones
    First Ones are members of the ancient races that preceded all others - the first to develop in the galaxy. Most of them have evolved into beings of pure energy, and they all possess incredible powers, intellects, and technologies. Vorlons, Shadows, and a select few other races are First Ones.

    Traits
    A First One can be slain only by another First One. Treat this as the tarrasque's regeneration, save that it is regeneration 0 and is overcome by any attack from another First One.

    Vorlon Ship

    "Then once Kosh's belongings are loaded into his ship it will activate itself. The ship was made for him. It was a part of him. In a curious way it is alive. It cannot live without him, so it will grieve as we do, in its own way, and perform its last duty in memory of Kosh. "

    Size/Type: Colossal Aberration (psionic)
    Hit Dice: 24d8+192 (300 hp)
    Initiative: +4
    Speed: Fly 250 ft. (perfect) (50 squares)
    Armor Class: 16 (+14 natural, -8 size), touch 2, flat-footed 16
    Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+50
    Attack: Slam +26 melee (2d8+24)
    Full Attack: Slam +26 melee (2d8+24)
    Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
    Special Attacks: Psi-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 5, hardness 20, jumpgate, spacecraft, telepathy 300 ft., vorlon bound
    Saves: Fort +18, Ref +10, Will +17
    Abilities: Str 42, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
    Skills: Knowledge (physical sciences) + 0*, Navigate +30, Pilot +30
    Feats: Flyby Attack, Improved Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (disintegrate), Skill Focus (navigate), Skill Focus (pilot)
    Environment: Any interplanetary
    Organization: As vorlon master
    Challenge Rating: 12
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: As vorlon master
    Advancement:
    Level Adjustment:

    The ship is graceful in both design and motion. It unfolds great luminous petals as it approaches, like some colossal and radiant flower.

    Each vorlon is served by a personal living transport. They are bound to each other, much like a wizard and her familiar or a paladin and his steed.

    A vorlon transport understands Common and Vorlon, as well as most other languages via their telepathy. However they never communicate (either aloud or via telepathy), save with their masters.

    Combat
    Vorlon ships are built for combat with other vessels, not with individuals. A vorlon ship is reduced to simple charges in close quarters; they much prefer to strike from a distance with their disintegrate ability.

    Jumpgate (Su)
    A vorlon ship can enter and exit the "hyperspace" plane as a full-round action. Treat this as the shadow walk spell (caster level 24th), save that it affects the vorlon ship and all creatures it is transporting in its hold.

    Psi-Like Abilities
    At will-disintegrate (DC 16), dream. Caster level 24th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    Spacecraft (Ex)
    A vorlon ship can survive comfortably in a vacuum. It can carry 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures in its hold.

    Vorlon Bound(Ex)
    Each vorlon ship is bound to a particular vorlon master. They possess a constant telepathic bond with each other and the ship is utterly loyal to its master.

    Skills
    A vorlon ship has a +20 racial bonus on any Knowledge (physical sciences) check relating to astronomy.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-08-23 at 03:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    This is awesome. I wanted to make one for years but details eluded me and something always took precedence.

    All in all, I think you did a marvelous job in staying true to the B5 Vorlons, but several issues do come to mind...

    1. Incorporeal ==> no Con. Use Cha for HP. Same result, better rule consistency.

    2. BAB +12 and Dex +5 ==> attack bonus +17. I'd also add Cha to dmg.

    3. I think you could do better with the feats selection. Incorporeal entities are already immune / resistant to a lot of things to waste 3 feats on save modifiers.

    4. Mind Piece should be possession, not mind affecting.

    5. A small request: arcane alternative to psionics. No divine, because they're too arrogant and self absorbed to worship.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    This is awesome. I wanted to make one for years but details eluded me and something always took precedence.

    All in all, I think you did a marvelous job in staying true to the B5 Vorlons, but several issues do come to mind...

    1. Incorporeal ==> no Con. Use Cha for HP. Same result, better rule consistency.

    2. BAB +12 and Dex +5 ==> attack bonus +17. I'd also add Cha to dmg.

    3. I think you could do better with the feats selection. Incorporeal entities are already immune / resistant to a lot of things to waste 3 feats on save modifiers.

    4. Mind Piece should be possession, not mind affecting.

    5. A small request: arcane alternative to psionics. No divine, because they're too arrogant and self absorbed to worship.
    Hey thanks! There's a lot of Vorlon stuff I left out (their connection to their ships, various attacks Ulkesh used during his fight scene, etc.) but I'm glad you like it.

    1. Incorporeal creatures don't have Strength scores but they can technically have Constitution scores (I think ghaeles in light-globe form might be the only non-undead creatures with Con scores, I admit!). I dithered about this but I wanted vorlons to be both a) Outsiders (evolved energy beings but not undead) and b) incorporeal, so I'll keep the Con.

    2. They're Huge size, so they take a -2 penalty on attacks. Added Cha to damage though (that should be an official incorporeal trait, good thinking!)

    3. Yeah... especially because I forgot to add the modifiers from the feats in!!! 0.0 However Improved Initiative plus the three save-boosters are kind of my traditional feats for homebrewed monsters... this is my first psionic creation so I'll look at some of the psionic feats though. Inquisitor seems very appropriate, no? ;) (Jack the Ripper)

    4. Is possession a descriptor? In any event Kosh never took control of Sheridan or Lyta, he just subtly influenced them as I recall.

    5. I much prefer magic to psionics myself, but considering the sci-fi setting I made them non-magical (the damage reduction is a niggling detail, yes...). Note the pains I took to import d20 modern Crafts and Knowledges! :D

    An arcane version would have 12th-level sorcerer casting, favouring enchantment spells and "psychic" spells (telepathic bond, dream, telekinesis, etc.).

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    2. Right. I thout about their attack as ranged touch, but your interpretation of huge size is better.

    3. For the arcane version, they should take Silent Spell and Still Spell.

    4. Could be necromancy. Similar to Magic Jar.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Required corrections . . .

    Initiative: +9 - Lightning Ref. is not Imp. Init

    Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) (6 squares) - 20 squares

    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. - 20 ft. / 20 ft

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    2. Right. I thout about their attack as ranged touch, but your interpretation of huge size is better.

    3. For the arcane version, they should take Silent Spell and Still Spell.

    4. Could be necromancy. Similar to Magic Jar.
    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Required corrections . . .

    Initiative: +9 - Lightning Ref. is not Imp. Init

    Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) (6 squares) - 20 squares

    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. - 20 ft. / 20 ft
    3. Yeah that would be appropriate.

    4. Good point! B5 definitely had the concept of "souls" (Soul Hunters etc.). However I've looked at the Malevolence ability of ghosts (the only "possession" ability in the SRD) and it doesn't seem to have any descriptors. I'll leave the Mind Piece as mind-affecting for now, anyways.

    Not sure what you meant about the initiative count? The vorlon has both Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes.

    Speed - whoops you're right, transcribed it incorrectly from air elemental. Size we were both wrong - it's 15/15 haha. Well-spotted and the edits have been made.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    A few things that come to mind...
    1. I think it's appropriate to mention that the Vorlon's attack damage is untyped. Usually I'm fiercely against it, but it seems appropriate given they suppose to embody the ultimate stage of evolution into beings of thought and energy.
    2. I'd go the distance in defining special attacks, such as stun/bullrush/ricochet/AoE etc - even art the expense of upping their CR.
    3. Why not stat their encounter suits and ships actually?
    4. Could be interesting to invent some bio-thchnological gear they'd grant their loyal subjects.
    5. I know that B5 doesn't give a lot of info on the shadows, but it could be interesting now to see their counterparts.
    Last edited by nonsi; 2017-08-20 at 12:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    A few things that come to mind...
    1. I think it's appropriate to mention that the Vorlon's attack damage is untyped. Usually I'm fiercely against it, but it seems appropriate given they suppose to embody the ultimate stage of evolution into beings of thought and energy.
    2. I'd go the distance in defining special attacks, such as stun/bullrush/ricochet/AoE etc - even art the expense of upping their CR.
    3. Why not stat their encounter suits and ships actually?
    4. Could be interesting to invent some bio-thchnological gear they'd grant their loyal subjects.
    5. I know that B5 doesn't give a lot of info on the shadows, but it could be interesting now to see their counterparts.
    1. The incorporeal touch attacks of spectres, wraiths etc don't have a defined damage type for their base damage (i.e. before the energy drain/Con drain) so I'm not sure that's necessary.

    2. Ha, if I do that I'll have to review the B5 wikis to review the other things they're capable of... I admit I was hoping that those special abilities could be covered through their psion powers (the more things I define, the more I'll have to limit their manifester abilities in order to stay true to the vorlon concept).

    To be honest I think giving them all the "tentacle" attacks was a bit much in hindsight - Ulkesh only ever seemed to lash out with one at a time.

    3. The encounter suits aren't really intended as PC gear (except maybe as disguises) and aren't truly important to the vorlons - remember Ulkesh was quick to discard his once he had had enough of the PPG fire (though I should probably give the vorlons themselves energy resistance, to fire/plasma at least). I'm not familiar with 3.5/pathfinder Spelljammer rules but I'm sure that would be the best way to stat the ships. Remember the ships have FTL travel, can regenerate, and probably have enough firepower to wipe out a D&D army or great wyrm dragon all by themselves haha!

    RE: encounter suits - if I were to stat them, they'd be like full plate armor, plus maybe only hardness 5, reduce movement speed to 10 (or even 5) feet, the ability to regenerate themselves (not explicitly shown in the series but it seems a safe bet given vorlon biotech), and prevent the wearer from making weapon attacks (e.g. have to use spells/psionics). Plus some stuff about having a self-contained atmosphere maybe, though that was a vorlon deception.

    4. Very cool idea, feel free to expand on it yourself! The only direct example I can think of in the lore would be the way they enhanced Lyta's powers (a bonus to manifester level? a bonus Expanded Knowledge feat to give her telekinesis and higher-level telepathy powers?).

    5. Yes the would be the next logical step. Certainly they'd have greater invisibility etc...
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-08-20 at 01:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    1. I wouldn't count on that. I played under a DM that ruled that those attacks bestow necromantic damage. Better to specify than count on interpretation.



    2. I was talking about the Vorlon's attack carrier effects, not separate powers.

    You could give them 3 iterative with a more powerful kick, or a single devastating attack (IIRC, every attack Ulkesh made ended up in fatality).



    3. Good call on Spelljammer.
    There was a proposal for a Spelljammer base class in here several weeks ago. Look it up.



    4. I might do that sometime in the near future. For D&D I was thinking more about gear and less about granted powers.



    5. One of many. Sonic attacks, mind control and death effects also come to mind.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    1. I wouldn't count on that. I played under a DM that ruled that those attacks bestow necromantic damage. Better to specify than count on interpretation.

    2. I was talking about the Vorlon's attack carrier effects, not separate powers.

    You could give them 3 iterative with a more powerful kick, or a single devastating attack (IIRC, every attack Ulkesh made ended up in fatality).

    3. Good call on Spelljammer.
    There was a proposal for a Spelljammer base class in here several weeks ago. Look it up.

    4. I might do that sometime in the near future. For D&D I was thinking more about gear and less about granted powers.

    5. One of many. Sonic attacks, mind control and death effects also come to mind.
    1. I still don't think it's necessary BUT I'll use it as an excuse to adapt the Light Rays ability, plus spell out the Charisma-to-damage thing.

    2. I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by attack carrier effects - the "full attack" part of the stat block?

    If not, I've reviewed the Ulkesh episode.

    Lorien specifically says that only another First One can kill a Vorlon (i.e. a Shadow, another Vorlon, etc.), so special damage reduction/regeneration is called for I think. Maybe even a "First One" subtype for Vorlons, Shadows, etc.

    Ulkesh's powers displayed while in his encounter suit included:
    • firing a blast of (fire?) energy at a guard
    • shielding himself from PPG fire in a telekinetic sphere
    • lashing out with multiple (electricity?) bolts at guards
    • emitting a sonic pulse that shattered the breathing apparatus of (and temporarily deafened? looked painful at least!) all the guards in his chambers
    • resisting a TON of high-voltage power plus loads of PPG fire, before his suit was either cracked open or he burst out of it


    Once out of his suit, he:
    • lashed out at a few guards but only one at a time, so I'm going to delete or limit the multiple tentacles and increase the damage die of the single attack as you suggested.
    • grappled with Sheridan, so I'm going to give his tentacles the ghost touch option.


    n.b. JMS is on record as saying that Vorlons have physical bodies instead of being energy beings, though this contradicts a lot of what we see (and a lot of stuff published outside the show) and also doesn't really make sense (how did Kosh hide in Sheridan then? two bodies cannot occupy the same place at the same time unless one of them is incorporeal! why do Ulkesh and Kosh become an energy discharge that runs the length of B5 before destroying Ulkesh's ship? how do the massive Vorlons fit in their encounter suits? etc.)

    n.b Also there's grounds for Vorlons having at least a partial hive mind ("we are all Kosh", the Vorlon High Command instantly knew when Kosh was killed, etc.).

    3. Yes I believe I saw that class! A colossal undertaking. I'll probably just look and see if Pathfinder has made an equivalent for building custom Spelljammer ships.

    4. While reviewing the wikis I was reminded that the encounter suits have built-in translators; Vorlons may have been lying about needing them but might as well throw that in too.

    5. According to one of the published novels Shadows are energy beings too, they just choose to assume physical form. Doesn't really mesh with how Londo was able to have a couple of them shot (when he turned on Morden).
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-08-21 at 01:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    1. Not sure what "light rays" stands for. Only saw that chapter once and I don't currently remember all the details.

    2. Example for "carrier effects": Stunning Fist. I.e. additional effects/conditions on top of damage.

    I totally agree that the suit should have its own set of powers. Question is can a vorlon create one on its own via innate powers or does it need to take on physical form to do so? If it's the latter, then it needs an alternative physical body.

    Regarding "how do the massive vorlons fit in their encounter suits"...
    I think it's either the above proposal or that they're medium w/ colossal reach - even at the expense of upping their CR (something that seems inevitable the way things are progressing here).

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    3. I have 2 issues with the proposed Spelljammer class:
    - It requires 30 levels. It's nonstandard and I don't know how to fit the sum of its abilities into 20 levels.
    - A vorlon has fixed HD, so having its vessle progress in levels kinda puts things backwards.

    Also, I don't remember any PF stuff on Spelljammers.

    4. See #2 or scrap the notion altogether.

    5. Maybe those were just physical projections / "shadowlings" / constructs / Invisible Servant variants. B5 really doesn't tell us much about the Shadows, so there's a lot more maneuvering room there.


    P.s. Sorry for posting in parts and w/o quotes. I'm on my mobile and there's a hard limit on post size via mobile interface.
    Last edited by nonsi; 2017-08-22 at 01:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Added ship, refluffed to First One subtype rather than lawfyl subtype (that was too "magical").

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    1. Not sure what "light rays" stands for. Only saw that chapter once and I don't currently remember all the details.

    2. Example for "carrier effects": Stunning Fist. I.e. additional effects/conditions on top of damage.

    I totally agree that the suit should have its own set of powers. Question is can a vorlon create one on its own via innate powers or does it need to take on physical form to do so? If it's the latter, then it needs an alternative physical body.

    Regarding "how do the massive vorlons fit in their encounter suits"...
    I think it's either the above proposal or that they're medium w/ colossal reach - even at the expense of upping their CR (something that seems inevitable the way things are progressing here).
    1. I was referring to the Light Rays special attack of lantern archons/ghaeles (one of the times a special ability defines the main attack of a creature). For vorlons I've written out "Mind Over Matter" - lays out the Charisma bonus to damage, makes the tentacle attacks ghost touch, etc.

    2. Ah I see. I don't think the tentacles have other carrier effects - in the episode they seemed pretty standard tentacles, lashing out at security guards, grappling Sheridan.

    I've dithered about giving the suits separate powers but left it at just the translator (I've removed the hardness and given the vorlon itself energy resistances). The psionics will cover the energy attacks -clearly Ulkesh favoured psychokinesis powers (blasting away at security guards with Energy Push and Energy Stun), whereas Kosh favoured telepathy and clairsentience (telling the future cryptically).

    Re: fitting in the suits; either way it's convoluted... I've come this far with them being incorporeal compressible spirits but Medium plus Colossal-reach tentacles could work too I guess. Now that I've removed the hardness hopefully their CR is still ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    3. I have 2 issues with the proposed Spelljammer class:
    - It requires 30 levels. It's nonstandard and I don't know how to fit the sum of its abilities into 20 levels.
    - A vorlon has fixed HD, so having its vessle progress in levels kinda puts things backwards.

    Also, I don't remember any PF stuff on Spelljammers.

    4. See #2 or scrap the notion altogether.

    5. Maybe those were just physical projections / "shadowlings" / constructs / Invisible Servant variants. B5 really doesn't tell us much about the Shadows, so there's a lot more maneuvering room there.

    P.s. Sorry for posting in parts and w/o quotes. I'm on my mobile and there's a hard limit on post size via mobile interface.
    Re: Spelljammer yeah, I was lazy so just whipped up the Vorlon transport.

    5. Yes, to the point where I don't think I'll tackle them just yet. I've been thinking about your point about making an arcane (i.e. magical rather than sci-fi) vorlon and though I'll leave that for the future I've made this one more true to Babylon 5/sci-fi (e.g. removed the lawful subtype and DR/lawful, added the First One subtype, etc.). If I make an arcane version or try to write up the Shadows I think there's so much leeway that I'll end up straying from the concept.

    No worries about your posting format! Quite intelligible and your input is always appreciated!

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Lazy or not, the end result is perfect.
    I have a few more nitpicks, but those will come later, when I have a bit more spare time.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Vorlon ship:
    1. Petals - since you mentioned those - there should be a reason to keep them close and a reason to keep them open. I suggest perfect maneuverability and low speed when open and poor/average maneuverability and high speen when closed (including hyperspace). You could add "anti-gravity" to explain how they can float motionlessly despite having poor maneuverability.
    2. A starship's disintegration beem should have way longer range than that of a regular Disintegrate spell - I'm thinking orbital ranges.
    3. Hyperspace: superluminal speed is way faster than what Shadow Walk provides.


    CR:
    being a full manifester/caster w/ an impressive offensive suite, CR should be higher than 12 methinks.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Vorlon ship:
    1. Petals - since you mentioned those - there should be a reason to keep them close and a reason to keep them open. I suggest perfect maneuverability and low speed when open and poor/average maneuverability and high speen when closed (including hyperspace). You could add "anti-gravity" to explain how they can float motionlessly despite having poor maneuverability.
    2. A starship's disintegration beem should have way longer range than that of a regular Disintegrate spell - I'm thinking orbital ranges.
    3. Hyperspace: superluminal speed is way faster than what Shadow Walk provides.


    CR:
    being a full manifester/caster w/ an impressive offensive suite, CR should be higher than 12 methinks.
    Yes, the ship was a very rough approximation. Without actually using a Spelljammer system it was the best I could do - e.g. an orbital range disintegration beam has no place in the standard DnD combat.

    Re: CR - I think the Vorlon and its ship are actually better suited to epic level campaigns now (especially given the First One subtype). I'm going to take a break from them for now but may return later to bump up the Vorlon CR and HD - as it is, the ship is arguably more powerful than many higher-CR monsters (given that it's as hard as adamantine).
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-08-24 at 12:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Yes, the ship was a very rough approximation. Without actually using a Spelljammer system it was the best I could do - e.g. an orbital range disintegration beam has no place in the standard DnD combat.
    I personally feel that the solution you came up with is better than Spelljammer and just needs a bit of polish to complete.
    I see no problem with long range disintegration beam (7th/8th SL equivalent). It doesn't have to be truly orbital.


    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Re: CR - I think the Vorlon and its ship are actually better suited to epic level campaigns now (especially given the First One subtype). I'm going to take a break from them for now but may return later to bump up the Vorlon CR and HD - as it is, the ship is arguably more powerful than many higher-CR monsters (given that it's as hard as adamantine).
    Kosh interacted with plain mortals, not Superman and the Hulk. I think that making Vorlons epic will miss the target by quite a lot. I do believe that they should be a a bit higher than CR 12 though.
    A vorlon is more than a monster to fight. It's much more fitting as a plot driver than a simple enemy. They should be a lot more sophisticated than that. In a D&D world, a vorlon ship is something that should be encountered a lot less than a vorlon. And who's to say that every vorlon in fantasy automatically has a ship? What if they have ranks - like any other intelligent race should have?

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I personally feel that the solution you came up with is better than Spelljammer and just needs a bit of polish to complete.
    I see no problem with long range disintegration beam (7th/8th SL equivalent). It doesn't have to be truly orbital.

    Kosh interacted with plain mortals, not Superman and the Hulk. I think that making Vorlons epic will miss the target by quite a lot. I do believe that they should be a a bit higher than CR 12 though.
    A vorlon is more than a monster to fight. It's much more fitting as a plot driver than a simple enemy. They should be a lot more sophisticated than that. In a D&D world, a vorlon ship is something that should be encountered a lot less than a vorlon. And who's to say that every vorlon in fantasy automatically has a ship? What if they have ranks - like any other intelligent race should have?
    Yes I the ship could be tweaked, I'm just running out of steam for this conversion for the moment haha. Disintegrate was a lzay choice on my part, should probably be an energy ray psi-like ability.

    Although the main characters of B5 were low- to mid-level PCs at best (most likely Experts or d20 Modern classes), the series very much had an Epic scale. Kosh and all the other Vorlons were thousands (and more likely millions) of years old, with the implied equivalent CR. Lorien explicitly stated that Sheridan et al couldn't kill Ulkesh, and it was made clear that the younger races were no match for the Vorlons/Shadows militarily -they were just used as pawns in the cosmic Order/Chaos philosophical debate. Finally, picture the death scene of Kosh & Ulkesh - they turn into an energy discharge that runs along the length of the entire station and then destroys Ulkesh's ship. The more I think about it the more epic they seem.

    I think we agree in the sense that a Vorlon works better as a quest-giving NPC rather than an enemy (except maybe towards the end of a campaign when the PCs reject the Vorlon's manipulation).

    Re: ships - as each Vorlon is an ancient creature with the attendant accumulated wealth/gear/technology, I'm pretty sure they actually do each have a personal ship. (In much they same way that every paladin paladin of sufficient level has a special mount). Of course this could be adapted as you choose to your campaign -making Vorlons populous enough to have low-CR civilians/grunts, along with keeping them non-epic and making them magical rather than psionic.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Yes I the ship could be tweaked, I'm just running out of steam for this conversion for the moment haha. Disintegrate was a lzay choice on my part, should probably be an energy ray psi-like ability.

    Although the main characters of B5 were low- to mid-level PCs at best (most likely Experts or d20 Modern classes), the series very much had an Epic scale. Kosh and all the other Vorlons were thousands (and more likely millions) of years old, with the implied equivalent CR. Lorien explicitly stated that Sheridan et al couldn't kill Ulkesh, and it was made clear that the younger races were no match for the Vorlons/Shadows militarily -they were just used as pawns in the cosmic Order/Chaos philosophical debate. Finally, picture the death scene of Kosh & Ulkesh - they turn into an energy discharge that runs along the length of the entire station and then destroys Ulkesh's ship. The more I think about it the more epic they seem.

    I think we agree in the sense that a Vorlon works better as a quest-giving NPC rather than an enemy (except maybe towards the end of a campaign when the PCs reject the Vorlon's manipulation).

    Re: ships - as each Vorlon is an ancient creature with the attendant accumulated wealth/gear/technology, I'm pretty sure they actually do each have a personal ship. (In much they same way that every paladin paladin of sufficient level has a special mount). Of course this could be adapted as you choose to your campaign -making Vorlons populous enough to have low-CR civilians/grunts, along with keeping them non-epic and making them magical rather than psionic.
    You're doing a fantastic job so far
    I hope you regain your steam on this one soon, and make sense out of all of this - including why such powerful beings would care about the younger races (beyond a game/wager they run with their chaotic counterparts).

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    You're doing a fantastic job so far
    I hope you regain your steam on this one soon, and make sense out of all of this - including why such powerful beings would care about the younger races (beyond a game/wager they run with their chaotic counterparts).
    Aww thanks man! <3

    I'd probably keep the B5 lore for this psionic version. A magical version could have different motivations entirely - serving a deity etc.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Absolutely love this! Any chance you know of any other B5 races/classes ported to 3.X?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Aww thanks man! <3

    I'd probably keep the B5 lore for this psionic version. A magical version could have different motivations entirely - serving a deity etc.
    A Vorlon variant serving a deity? That would be an entirely different motivation... I kinda got the impression that they thought they were a deity (Ulkesh more than Kosh, but even Kosh to some extent...)

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranged Ranger View Post
    Absolutely love this! Any chance you know of any other B5 races/classes ported to 3.X?

    A Vorlon variant serving a deity? That would be an entirely different motivation... I kinda got the impression that they thought they were a deity (Ulkesh more than Kosh, but even Kosh to some extent...)
    I recently discovered there was a B5 D20 conversion (available via torrent, hem hem). You could use those stats for inspiration.

    The official B5 Vorlons definitely didn't serve deities (other than the generic cause of "Order"); they arguably considered themselves to BE deities in the way they manipulated the younger races. Nonsi had expressed interest in a non-sci-fi version of Vorlons (i.e. with magical rather than psionic powers); I suggested that the magic version could have different motivations as well as different stats.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Yeah the D20 Babylon 5 - Darkness and Light book by Mongoose Publishing is a great source of information on this but some people state it contradicts official canon.
    Last edited by Nickel; 2017-09-09 at 09:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Vorlon (Babylon 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickel View Post
    Yeah the D20 Babylon 5 - Darkness and Light book by Mongoose Publishing is a great source of information on this but some people state it contradicts official canon.
    Yeah, I have to say I was underwhelmed by that RPG (or the Vorlons at least -it went into great detail about them having personalities that were downloaded into crystalline bodies, more like computers than psionic/energy beings).

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