5e multi-rank: the Barbarian

[Waazraath]

This thread is about how the barbarian functions in the 5e multi-rank. You can find more information on how the system works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ss-can-do-what The (short version) idea of the multi-rank is to describe how much potential each subclass has in a number of roles.

As a reminder, the assessment scale is:

A score of 1: great, this (sub)class is simply one of the best for this task. It has several, strong class features that are designed for this specific kind of job.
A score of 2: good: the (sub)class offers additional tools for fulfilling a task. It’s not the best possible (sub)class for the job, but definitely better than a class that, of example, has no other tools than the relevant skill and / or feat.
A score of 3: ok-ish: the (sub)class offers little to none additional tools for fullfilling this task. It needs to spend a feat to be able to do this, or pick a background to give access to a skill, and invest in the relevant ability score.

General assessment

The barbarian seems like the ‘tank out of the box’. The base class gives great damage in combat against single targets, and great defensive options, especially the resistance to damage when raging. Most base class abilities don’t do much except for further enhancing the frontliner role: new abilities give things like more (rage and critical) damage, a better initiative, and a higher strength score. The only utility abilities are improvement of strength related skill roles. It can be useful, but in itself not enough to make this class ‘good’ in mobility, just because it can jump and climb above the average skilled person. Not even with the +10ft movement that the base class provides.

The sub classes give a bit more options, but not too many.

The Berserker mainly makes the tank a better tank, and deals even more damage. Frenzy and retaliation add a lot of extra damage, mindless rage makes sure the barbarian can keep standing in the frontline, instead of running for her mom as soon as the first fear aura enters the scene. The only thing it adds in another field is the intimidating presence at level 10; but it’s charisma focussed (a dump stat for barbarians) and by itself not good enough to make the barbarian a social influencer.

The Battlerager is alike. Class abilities do more damage, or make the barbarian hardier (extra temp hp). Only the battlerager charge add something in a different field: mobility. But dash as a bonus action at level 10 doesn’t make the subclass good in the mobility department.

The subclass that gives by far the most options is the Totem warrior. At three levels, it allows the choice out of five options (including the 2 from SCAG). This offers genuine options to customize the subclass. Of course, a lot of the options include improving what the barbarian already does: doing more damage (with a adding an extra attack, with Elk or Tiger totems for totemic attunement), or being the ultimate damage soker with the bear totem spirit (resistance to everything when raging, bar psychic damage). But the totem warrior has much more options. Wolf totem spirit buffs allies (advantage), wolf totemic attunement debuffs enemies (knocking them prone). Aspect of the beast (eagle) highly improves your perception abilities (see fine details up to a mile, as if they are 100ft far). But the most new options are provided in the mobility department. Totem spirit (eagle) for bonus action dash and disadvantage on attacks of opportunity against you; totem spirit (elk) for 15 ft extra movement; totem spirit (tiger) for longer and higher jumps. Totemic attunment (eagle) for short range flight. Finally, all totem warriors gain three spells that are useful for information gathering in the outdoor: beast sense, speak with animals and commune with nature. Conclusion is that a totem warrior can be a very mobile character. For example, take a race with 30 ft base speed, combining the base class speed upgrade, with an elk totem spirit, and eagle totemic attunement: it gives when raging a base speed of 55 for a medium character (elk totem), that can fly in short bursts of 55 ft as well. Add the mobile feat (it doesn’t need to max out con if it isn’t in the front all the time) and you’ll have a very fast hit & run type of character that can also deal big damage. So it gets rated “good”. Though the totem warrior is or can be better than the other subclasses as an information gatherer and scout (due to the rituals and the enhanced vision), that’s not enough to be really ‘good’ in that role.

Berserker

Combat
• Melee damage dealer: 1
• Ranged damage dealer: 3
• Multiple target damage: 3
• Tank: 1
• Debuffer: 3
• Buffer: 3
• Healer: 3

Social interaction
• Influencer: 3
• Minion master: 3
• Information gatherer: 3

Exploration
• Scout: 3
• Trapfinder: 3
• Mobility: 3

Totem warrior

Combat
• Melee damage dealer: 1
• Ranged damage dealer: 3
• Multiple target damage: 3
• Tank: 1
• Debuffer: 3
• Buffer: 3
• Healer: 3

Social interaction
• Influencer: 3
• Minion master: 3
• Information gatherer: 3

Exploration
• Scout: 3
• Trapfinder: 3
• Mobility: 2

Battlerager

Combat
• Melee damage dealer: 1
• Ranged damage dealer: 3
• Multiple target damage: 3
• Tank: 1
• Debuffer: 3
• Buffer: 3
• Healer: 3

Social interaction
• Influencer: 3
• Minion master: 3
• Information gatherer: 3

Exploration
• Scout: 3
• Trapfinder: 3
• Mobility: 3

[NOTE: this ‘rank the barbarian’ is a test for a multi-rank system for 5e. If you are so kind to help thinking on this, use this thread for feedback on how the barbarian performs on the different roles. Use the thread on the system for feedback on the ranking system, the scaling, the different roles, et cetera.]

[excommunicated]

With the totem Barbarian's ability to speak with animals and beast sense as rituals, you could consider the Totem Barbarian's ability to scout and detect traps as a '2'. Especially if the Dm includes lots of flavour animals like rats or the Barbarian brings along some small friendly animals like dogs to treat as trap bait.

[Waazraath]

With the totem Barbarian's ability to speak with animals and beast sense as rituals, you could consider the Totem Barbarian's ability to scout and detect traps as a '2'. Especially if the Dm includes lots of flavour animals like rats or the Barbarian brings along some small friendly animals like dogs to treat as trap bait.

"Conan and his expandable pack of rats". Quite evil Do you have (or has anybody) any experience with this? How many DM's let this fly? How goed does it work. It seems like it could be a good way to scout and find traps.

Lets see: as for "scouting", we have as class abilities from (totem) barbarian:
- the enhanced vision 'aspect of the beast: eagle' at level 6
- beast sense and speak with animals at level 3
- the option to have a 14 or 16 dex, and no penalty from stealth due to armor (because of unarmored defense)

For trap finding, we have:
- the expandable rat pack (beast sense / speak with animals)
- danger sense (advantage on dex saves vs traps)
- a general good survivability / high hp, if a trap goes off.
- a mid to high dex (thieves tools can be accessed through background.

Is all this enough to be 'good' in this role? Significantly better than a character that has nothing in this field, that goes for the role of trapfinder with nothing but the right skills and thieves tools proficiency?

[Citan]

Hey ;)

Honestly, I don't like how you make tanking definition as "primarily having high resilience" and putting "divert enemy attacks" as an accessory.

I'd suggest instead making at least two different categories:
- Meatsponge (or plain "Resilience"): to access the sole aspect of resilience facing damage.
- Tank: to assess the ability to reduce enemy threat directly (spells such as Command -drop-, Compelled Duel, Fear, Blindness, abilities such as Protection, Panache etc).

But honestly even that would just be enough for the sake of comparing martials. Once you consider every things caster can do, you realize you would really need as sharp a distinction as the one you did for damage dealing (just "debuffer" is not gonna be enough)...

So I'd suggest...
- Mass control: ability to affect enemies's available options directly (Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Reckless Attack) or indirectly (Plant Growth, Walls etc).
- Single-target control: spells and abilities that allow you to influence one target's course of action.

I admit this adds another level of complexity, but it seems necessary to me to reflect the richness of tactical options available. But hey, it's your guide and it would mean much more work so I'd perfectly understand if you ditch it. ^^

[Waazraath]

Hey ;)

Honestly, I don't like how you make tanking definition as "primarily having high resilience" and putting "divert enemy attacks" as an accessory.

I'd suggest instead making at least two different categories:
- Meatsponge (or plain "Resilience"): to access the sole aspect of resilience facing damage.
- Tank: to assess the ability to reduce enemy threat directly (spells such as Command -drop-, Compelled Duel, Fear, Blindness, abilities such as Protection, Panache etc).

Fair enough. Can I make a request? Post this please in the original thread about the system: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ss-can-do-what

That way we can have this discussion there, and leave this place for the place of the barbarian in the system.

But honestly even that would just be enough for the sake of comparing martials. Once you consider every things caster can do, you realize you would really need as sharp a distinction as the one you did for damage dealing (just "debuffer" is not gonna be enough)...

So I'd suggest...
- Mass control: ability to affect enemies's available options directly (Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Reckless Attack) or indirectly (Plant Growth, Walls etc).
- Single-target control: spells and abilities that allow you to influence one target's course of action.

I admit this adds another level of complexity, but it seems necessary to me to reflect the richness of tactical options available. But hey, it's your guide and it would mean much more work so I'd perfectly understand if you ditch it. ^^

To make a quick reply on this though: I understand. The problem with a system with too many categories, is that it would become too complex to be easily used. It already is quite complex. Another thing is that I don't know if it's good that in the combat pillar, there are 10 sub categories, and in the other pillars only 3 or 4. Of course, most rules are about combat, but stil. I also considered adding "consistent damage" and "nova damage"; also relevant, but also would make it more complex. As for your suggestions, I think splitting tanking up in meatsponge and tanking would be more useful than mass control / single target control, or further detailling debuffing.

BUT, as far as I'm concerned, this isn't gonna be "my guide", I prefer it to be a community effort as much as possible.