Sorcerer: the most unsatisfying class

[Deathtongue]

The thing that anoyes me the most is that, minus a Wish spell, there is no canon way for a Dragonic Origin Sorcerer to become a Dragon, something avalable to literally every other Arcane Spellcaster in the game.

I think that's more of an issue of the power of 9th-level spells more than a failing of class design.

That said, I do feel you on that. 5E D&D has a vision of the game where you, the PC, pretty much do the same things you did at level 15 that you did at level 5. It's not as completely ruthless about this vision as 4E D&D was, as there are plenty (always in the hands of full-casters, of course) ways to genuinely shift the paradigm. But it's pretty clear from looking at the class features -- not just of sorcerers, but from other characters like the cleric -- that you were supposed to be okay with your 'dragon' character having some elemental affinities, a slightly tougher body, and wings.

[FabulousFizban]

wizards have more spells
bards have more versatility
warlocks have more damage
clerics have more heals
druids have more EVERYTHING

what is left for the sorcerer to do?

[Kane0]

Give em spell points, merge the two SP pools.

They get 0 new things, both flavor and mechanics are improved and they get to enjoy their own niche.

[8wGremlin]

Elemental mastery:
For 2sp you can change the listed element damage type of a spell or cantrip to another element damage type.

Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, or Thunder

Too powerful a metamagic?

[Saiga]

Considering Lore Wizard got the same feature for free, I don't think that's too powerful at all.

[Kryx]

Kryx's rules... I can use his rules fairly easily.

Great to hear that you can use them fairly easily. It's difficult to manage the whole structure so hearing feedback about its usability is helpful.

I'm not overly fond of the 'badwrongfun' implied by "just play 5E as is, and play older systems if you want 'x' factor instead."

Since when has a D&D community every accepted others playing differently than they? Pffft... Fully agreed though. :)

[Kane0]

Elemental mastery:
For 1sp you can change the damage type of a spell listed below to another listed type.

Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Thunder

Would be what I'd do.

[Safety Sword]

Since when has a D&D community every accepted others playing differently than they? Pffft... Fully agreed though. :)

Ha!

My way or the Sword Coast Trade Way seems to be the general consensus.

[ZorroGames]

Ha!

My way or the Sword Coast Trade Way seems to be the general consensus.

It does cut both ways but one side refuses to accept that as true.

[Safety Sword]

It does cut both ways but one side refuses to accept that as true.

That'd be the blunt side I guess?

[Kryx]

Elemental mastery:
For 1sp you can change the damage type of a spell listed below to another listed type.

Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Thunder

Would be what I'd do.

In AL or otherwise RAW games it'd be totally fine.

Though this issue is simply an issue of spell damage type balance - tons of fire and very little of others like acid. In home games I'd recommend adding acid and other damage type spells that are missing from the Sorcerer's list. Once you have all 5e elemental options on there start porting elemental spells from old editions - there are plenty to work with that provide great flavor.

[samcifer]

I was very sad to see many good attack spells missing from the sorc list. They get a very odd assortment of spells. I would think that since their magic awakes forcefully, they'd focus more on damaging spells, but they don't, which is very strange.

[Byke]

Firstly, there already isn't much variety between any two sorcerers because of the perception that twin and quicken are the best. Nevermind that heighten can be used great effect against bosses, because twinned haste and quickened EB are all anyone cares about.

One of the reasons why Shadow Sorcerer is such a well designed subclass. They give you a persistent Heighten at 6th level for only 3 SP. That will effect all of your spells as long as the hound stays alive.

[AtraUnam]

Personally I find sorcerers pretty decent, you just need to play them creatively. I do however feel like they need something similiar to warlock patrons, each origin should have an additional list of spells from which they can chose when they gain new spells; for instance I just started playing an ocean sorcerer with a new group and in the longrun I'm going to be asking my DM for access to certain druid spells once I start getting level 7+ slots because what kind of ocean sorcerer doesn't have access to tsunami or change weather?

[Easy_Lee]

Personally I find sorcerers pretty decent, you just need to play them creatively. I do however feel like they need something similiar to warlock patrons, each origin should have an additional list of spells from which they can chose when they gain new spells; for instance I just started playing an ocean sorcerer with a new group and in the longrun I'm going to be asking my DM for access to certain druid spells once I start getting level 7+ slots because what kind of ocean sorcerer doesn't have access to tsunami or change weather?

That may be the right niche for Sorcerers. Make them a class based on the natural magic of particular things: dragons, ocean, stone, shadow, etc. This would differentiate them from Wizards who study arcane secrets, but also from Druids who are part of all of nature.

[ZorroGames]

That may be the right niche for Sorcerers. Make them a class based on the natural magic of particular things: dragons, ocean, stone, shadow, etc. This would differentiate them from Wizards who study arcane secrets, but also from Druids who are part of all of nature.

Well that would make it more than a flavor dip for another class (my current evaluation of the Sorcerer class.)

Wonder if WOTC would do that via subclasses.

[Kryx]

That may be the right niche for Sorcerers. Make them a class based on the natural magic of particular things: dragons, ocean, stone, shadow, etc. This would differentiate them from Wizards who study arcane secrets, but also from Druids who are part of all of nature.

That's exactly what the Sorcerer's Origin does. That's why I focus my Sorcerer on the Origin and emphasize it as a large role in the class.

[Easy_Lee]

That's exactly what the Sorcerer's Origin does. That's why I focus my Sorcerer on the Origin and emphasize it as a large role in the class.

I did the same, having origin grant additional spells known same as a druid circle. But Regardless of anyone's homebrew, the fact remains that WotC didn't focus on that origin much mechanically. Neither PHB origin impacts spell list or Metamagic, the two staples of the class as written. As a result, players see Sorcerers as the Metamagic class, not the magical origin class.

[Kryx]

I did the same, having origin grant additional spells known same as a druid circle. But Regardless of anyone's homebrew, the fact remains that WotC didn't focus on that origin much mechanically. Neither PHB origin impacts spell list or Metamagic, the two staples of the class as written. As a result, players see Sorcerers as the Metamagic class, not the magical origin class.

Agreed, though we're talking about fixes at this point in the thread. So I'm recommending the fix I chose to use. :)

[ZorroGames]

I find the frustration in that any viable fix suggested so far pretty much stops AL play cold and AL is King here unless you get an invite to a private campaign.

[Kryx]

I find the frustration in that any viable fix suggested so far pretty much stops AL play cold and AL is King here unless you get an invite to a private campaign.

Then you have to live with RAW.

You always have the option of becoming a GM or playing on Roll20/Fantasy Grounds.

[ZorroGames]

Then you have to live with RAW.

You always have the option of becoming a GM or playing on Roll20/Fantasy Grounds.

No, I decided early on to avoid the whole DM route. Just, no.

I just want to have fun, not work.

I can live with "Sorcerer as dip" since I almost exclusively play fighters or clerics as base class.

[Safety Sword]

No, I decided early on to avoid the whole DM route. Just, no.

I just want to have fun, not work.

I can live with "Sorcerer as dip" since I almost exclusively play fighters or clerics as base class.

Aren't you lucky that some people find DMing fun then?

[samcifer]

The more I look at the favored soul, the more I like the idea. I can get fire spells as well as healing spells. Esp. useful as our cleric seems to have baled on the group.

[8wGremlin]

Time to revamp my shamanic soul

[SharkForce]

I did the same, having origin grant additional spells known same as a druid circle. But Regardless of anyone's homebrew, the fact remains that WotC didn't focus on that origin much mechanically. Neither PHB origin impacts spell list or Metamagic, the two staples of the class as written. As a result, players see Sorcerers as the Metamagic class, not the magical origin class.

of course they didn't focus on origins. there's no room left. all the power is in the metamagic basket, there's no room left to put a lot of power into origins. the other part of the reason why kryx's sorcerer rework focuses on origins is that the power of metamagic was completely removed from his version of the sorcerer and put into feats, which means there's actually some room in the class to do something cool with origins.

[Easy_Lee]

of course they didn't focus on origins. there's no room left. all the power is in the metamagic basket, there's no room left to put a lot of power into origins. the other part of the reason why kryx's sorcerer rework focuses on origins is that the power of metamagic was completely removed from his version of the sorcerer and put into feats, which means there's actually some room in the class to do something cool with origins.

Expanded spell lists, similar to a cleric or land druid, add versatility, not power. The sorcerer isn't doing any more with his action than before.

[ZorroGames]

Aren't you lucky that some people find DMing fun then?

Quite hapily, yes. Did that for 22 people (two parties) for a year in Seattle in the 1980s. Priorities are different now.

[Safety Sword]

Quite hapily, yes. Did that for 22 people (two parties) for a year in Seattle in the 1980s. Priorities are different now.

If you had groups of 10 PCs playing I can see why you dislike being the DM...

[ZorroGames]

If you had groups of 10 PCs playing I can see why you dislike being the DM...

No, a group of 3 (my girlfriend, Reserve Buddy and his wife) and one massive group. And most of the 3 generation large group showed up regularly.

I need a "Shudder" icon.