Anyone here ever play around with 13th age?

[UrielAwakened]

It's been billed to me as a sort-of middle ground between 4e and 5e in the past and I spent some time recently seriously reading it over.

Anyone here have thoughts on it from a 4e perspective? What does it do differently than 4e that you like? What does it change about 4e that you think works? How about what changes does it make that you think go too far?

[ve4grm]

I'm a big fan of 13th Age. (Though I've been craving some pure, uncut 4e of late.)

A middle ground between 4e and 5e isn't the worst description, but know that it also incorporates ideas from narrative- and story-based games, too.

As for what it does:

It lets every character be equally able to contribute in combat (like 4e)...
...while still letting classes feel more different than 4e does.

It keeps everyone limited to one attack per round (mostly) like 4e does. This is a good thing.
That said, every class eventually gets to roll tons of dice. Even fighters are rolling 10d8 or 10d10 at the end.

Spellcasters (and some others) use powers that are much like 4e's...
...but they are less regimented. Where at level 3 in 4e you would have 2 at-wills, 2 encounters, a utility, and a daily, in 13th Age you'll just have (for example) 4 3rd level spells and 3 1st level spells, which can be any combination of at-will/encounter/daily that you wish.

Some classes, on the other hand, are very simple. The Barbarian, for example, operates much like the 4e Slayer fighter from Essentials.

Other classes operate on an in-between level, with powers of various sorts, but each has a condition that must be met for it to be used. The Fighter, for example, has an array of powers (flexible attacks) that trigger based off their attack roll. Some are usable on even rolls, odd rolls, 16+ rolls, etc. It's very fun to play.

They use a Ritual system (like 4e)...
...but make it more flexible, relying on the players to invent the result they want, and the GM to decide what that costs.

Every character has some amount of self-healing between fights (like 4e's healing surges)...
...but these are rolled, rather than static, resulting in a bit more tension.

Death and dying is much like 4e, with death saves...
...but even when somebody does bite the dust, they can still "Fight In Spirit" to give the other players bonuses.

Multiclassing works the same as 4e's Hybrid rules, essentially.
I miss multiclass feats, though.

Skills are kind-of-removed, replaced with freeform backgrounds. The background system can take some getting used to, but is awesome.

...

Things I miss?

I miss the added customization of themes and paragon paths. It would be nice to have that "third pillar".

I miss having more things to spend money on. Money becomes nearly meaningless in 13th Age, except for potions and maybe the occasional bribe or room at an inn.

I miss the tactical play of 4e, where combat is always in motion and positioning matters a lot. A lot of the time, it's nice to not worry about it, but sometimes I want it back.

Oh, and I kind of wish the game went to level 15 sometimes, rather than just 10?

There's not much else I miss, though.

[MoutonRustique]

... what he said +

13th Age runs TotM well. (unlike 4e)

By this, I mean, really, really well. The system actually uses metrics that work in TotM. Unlike other systems vaunted for the option to use TotM (but where, in truth, you just fudge a lot of stuff ) this one actually does facilitate TotM.

It's a huge difference in play - and it means that 13th Age is "between 4e and 5e" in the same way that the third point of a triangle is "between" the other two points - but that's just me ranting.

[Dimers]

It's been billed to me as a sort-of middle ground between 4e and 5e in the past and I spent some time recently seriously reading it over.

I see a lot more of 4e in it than 5e. The tight level-based math limiting fight difficulty to near the PCs' level, for example -- a far cry from 5e's guarantee that quantity can face down quality.

What does it do differently than 4e that you like?

The thematic structure (which could be imported to nearly any game system) ... the player-driven elements like One Unique Thing and not having a set list of backgrounds ... partially randomized story prompts (if your gaming group likes that kind of thing). I'm intrigued by the way class determines your stat used, attack bonus and damage die for a given weapon, rather than trying to make all classes use all weapons the same.

What does it change about 4e that you think works? How about what changes does it make that you think go too far?

I think it's far too simplified, to the point that it seems bland. People complain about 4e's combat abilities seeming "same-y"? 13th Age is much worse, with just a bare handful of effects possible -- and its monsters worse still, few published examples having more than one special ability. (The amount of whitespace in the monster writeups is just staggering.) In its quest to balance classes tightly, 13th Age makes it impossible to reliably excel at anything, and does so in a hamfisted way, not bothering to give mechanical limitations any fluff reasoning. The new classes in 13 True Ways are headscratchers in various ways -- druids are underpowered, necromancers compare poorly to wizards, wild mage spells have no thematic unity, and how the hell do you have a class that only one person per gameworld can be? And while I do like the way a piece of armor or a weapon will vary from class to class, that's used to restrict playable archetypes rather than to provide more flexibility.

I think 13th Age makes a better game for introducing people to fantasy RPGs, but it doesn't meet my preferences nearly as well.

The system actually uses metrics that work in TotM. Unlike other systems vaunted for the option to use TotM (but where, in truth, you just fudge a lot of stuff ) this one actually does facilitate TotM.

Truth. *nods sagely*

[ve4grm]

I think 13th Age makes a better game for introducing people to fantasy RPGs, but it doesn't meet my preferences nearly as well.

Fair enough, and you make a number of valid points, but I'll actually argue against it being a good introductory RPG.

13th Age, by design, doesn't hold your hand. It tosses you into the deep end by requiring you to create One Unique Things, your own skill list, and anything to do with Icon rolls. It is explicitly recommended (in the book) that you have a group with some experience with RPGs, or at least an experienced GM, to run it.

Now, to add a few new things I thought about to the "positive" side of the scale:

Weapons and Armour class are determined by the class, not the equipment (mostly). Each class has a small table of how much damage they do with one-handed/two-handed/simple/martial weapons, and another of what their base AC is in light, heavy, or no armour. This doubles as their proficiency listing. This allows a Rogue to deal d8 damage with daggers (longsword-equivalent) and a Fighter in heavy armour to have a better AC than a Wizard who just threw on some plate mail, and makes the specifics of the armour and weapon type a largely cosmetic choice.

13th Age takes 4e's Minions (or Mooks from other systems) and does them spectacularly! Instead of being one-hit kills, they now have a shared pool of HP, which means a solid hit can take out multiple mooks in one blow! It's super fun in play.

The math is definitely closer to how 4e does things. In particular for monsters, with tables that can allow you to create your own creature in minutes. Monsters do tend to be smaller than 4e ones, with less abilities to use, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing most of the time. The players barely ever notice, at least. And when you need someone impressive, you can always add more abilities to them. (Many monsters even have suggestions for this, under the "Nastier Specials" header.)

Monsters don't roll damage. This feels weird for a while, but it really does speed up the monster turn, and with the addition of abilities based on the d20 roll you still get some randomness. (For example, the Gnoll Ranger, which gets a second attack on a natural even roll. Or the Bugbear, where the same natural even hit deals +5 damage. I still miss rolling damage as GM sometimes, but I don't miss the time it takes to sift through my dicebag looking for the right dice.

I'm not entirely sure what Dimers means by whitespace, though? The monsters are all very compact, though much of their abilities are in text, rather than stats?

[Dimers]

Oh, derp, I forgot one major innovation -- the escalation die. Good notion, helps make things a little more cinematic, though perhaps also more swingy.

I'm not entirely sure what Dimers means by whitespace, though? The monsters are all very compact, though much of their abilities are in text, rather than stats?

So much space between one monster and the next. I mean, given how simple the stats are, they could fit in twenty per page, easy. Though a lot of the padding technically isn't "white"space, it's the basically-useless, unevocative icon symbol that they change for EVERY. SINGLE. ENTRY. Pretty sure that art money coulda been better spent elsewhere. (I have opinions, yes I do.)

[ve4grm]

So much space between one monster and the next. I mean, given how simple the stats are, they could fit in twenty per page, easy. Though a lot of the padding technically isn't "white"space, it's the basically-useless, unevocative icon symbol that they change for EVERY. SINGLE. ENTRY. Pretty sure that art money coulda been better spent elsewhere. (I have opinions, yes I do.)

Ah, I see what you're getting at. As I understand it, the customized icon symbol was a (far cheaper) alternative to getting art done for every creature. And it's meant to associate the monster with an Icon, so you had a quick reference while skimming to build battles. It doesn't really do much for me either, though, so I feel you.

Also, if you haven't, I recommend checking out the Bestiary, and the new Bestiary 2. (Maybe 13TW too?) Most (maybe all?) of the creatures in those have full art, and it's generally amazing! (They also have lots of cool fluff and advice.) A lot more (not all, of course) are more complex, as well, having additional abilities and things to do.

The core book monsters are functional. The Bestiary ones are awesome.

[Dimers]

I was instead sent the Bestiary when I ordered 13TW, which understandably annoyed me. Between that and disliking knowing monster stats (I like to be surprised IC -- makes combat feel fresh and interesting), I've barely even cracked the book open. Maybe I should give it more of a look. Kinda frivolous for me now, though, since I divine no 13th Age game in my near future.