Converting Characters from 3.5 - need suggestions

[ve4grm]

Hey all,

So a while ago, my home group decided they wanted to experience high-level D&D play for once (most games topped out by level 12-15). Now, knowing the people that requested it, I knew that meant 3e, so I agreed to run them a level 16+ 3.5e game.

By level 17, they TPK'd in a fight against random monsters that just happened to have multiple death and negative-level attacks.

We're taking a break for the moment, but for when we com back to it I've floated the idea of, since we TPK'd in 3.5, converting to 4e (my preferred edition) and running that for a while. And then if we TPK in 4e, moving to 5e. That way, we get to see high-level play in all the modern editions!

So I'm trying to figure out how to convert their character for them (as faithfully as possible), from level 17 3.5e, to level 21 4e. Here are the characters, and what I have so far. Looking for suggestions.


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Human Favored Soul of Odin, modeled as a Valkyrie
Used a spear, split focus between stabbing things, healing, and buffs (most self-buffs, but some others)
Also had the Leadership feat and a Rogue companion... but I probably can't model that?

Becomes

Race: Human
Class: Cleric (Battle Templar Cleric, or Storm Warpriest - suggestions?)
Multiclass: Avenger
Paragon Path: Favored Soul (or maybe something else striker-y that grants flight?)
Theme: ??
Epic Destiny: ??

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Elf Archer Ranger
Favoured enemies, shot lots of things lots of times, with elemental and bane effects, had a tiger companion that grappled enemies sometimes

Becomes

Race: Elf
Class: Beastmaster Ranger? Or should I just give him Fey Beast Tamer?
PP: ??
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer??
ED: ??

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Human Barbarian/Bear Warrior
Basically what it says on the tin. Raged, turned into a bear, was very strong, and grappled a lot of things
No real Primal flavor besides the bear thing

Becomes

Race: Human
Class: Barbarian (Rageblood)
PP: Bear Warrior
Theme: ??
ED: ??

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"Human" Favored Soul/SorcererWarmage/Geomancer
(Geomancer is a class that gives you "drifts" so that you gradually change form, ended up with fur, a snout, the scent ability, eagle eyes, blindsense, and eventually wings, looked like a gnoll with wings, used a Gnoll Archer mini to represent himself)
Modeled as a hunter, ended up mostly as a blaster mage using a bow as a focus (all fluff).

Things that are important to capture:
- arcane or divine caster (probably some multiclass into the other one), but not a healer to any significant degree
- So, Wiz/Sorc or Invoker?
- bow user
- blindsight (I have a few options in Skill Powers for blindsight, so no worries there), scent, and maybe flight abilities?

Becomes

Race: Gnoll
Everything Else: ???????????????????????????????????

[Duff]

-------------
Human Barbarian/Bear Warrior
Basically what it says on the tin. Raged, turned into a bear, was very strong, and grappled a lot of things
No real Primal flavor besides the bear thing

Becomes

Race: Human
Class: Barbarian (Rageblood)
PP: Bear Warrior
Theme: ??
ED: ??

[/INDENT]

Theme werebear?

[Yakk]

Here are maximally complex builds

Avenger|Cleric Hybrid (MC Fighter). Give Odin Skill domain, has Power of Skill, charge-optimizing with a Superior Spear. Mainly Avenger: Cleric for minor healing.

Human Ranger|Seeker Hybrid. Uses extra power to get the Hunter burst 1 basic attack arrow storm, uses Seeker elemental splash arrow at-will. Plus twin strike. Fey beast tamer (reskinned animal).

Barbarian|Fighter (Brawler) Hybrid. Waraxe or Axe-Guantlet and empty hand (Feyslaughter). Grapples, locks down, pins, and pounds away with damage.

Last one is tricky. Could try Druid. They get lots of strange utility. Need more details.

[MoutonRustique]

[...]
Also had the Leadership feat and a Rogue companion... but I probably can't model that? [...]

Favoured enemies, shot lots of things lots of times, with elemental and bane effects, had a tiger companion that grappled enemies sometimes

I won't go into the character themselves for now, but I will say this : You can absolutely model the Rogue companion AND the grappling tiger!

What you do is that you make them into companion characters - the goal behind the action economy conservation of 4e with regards to summons and "pets" and such was to ensure that a given character did not bring more to the table than another. This is important for organised play and making sure one player doesn't hog all the spotlight. But in a friendly game, these considerations are much much less! Especially if you guys are coming from 3e where turn-time is vastly different from character to character.

Simply have them be companion characters and adjust the encounter XP accordingly - BAM! Awesome pets and followers.

... also that last character could probably be modeled by a [Seeker]! (no?)

[ve4grm]

Theme werebear?

Ooh, have to check that one out. Thanks.

Here are maximally complex builds

Avenger|Cleric Hybrid (MC Fighter). Give Odin Skill domain, has Power of Skill, charge-optimizing with a Superior Spear. Mainly Avenger: Cleric for minor healing.

Human Ranger|Seeker Hybrid. Uses extra power to get the Hunter burst 1 basic attack arrow storm, uses Seeker elemental splash arrow at-will. Plus twin strike. Fey beast tamer (reskinned animal).

Barbarian|Fighter (Brawler) Hybrid. Waraxe or Axe-Guantlet and empty hand (Feyslaughter). Grapples, locks down, pins, and pounds away with damage.

Last one is tricky. Could try Druid. They get lots of strange utility. Need more details.

Valkyrie is definitely main Cleric, as she's primary heals, secondary striker.

I had forgotten the Seeker's elemental arrows. I'll have to check them out.

For the Barbarian, I want to keep things as straightforward as possible with that player. I'm actually debating making her a Werebear Slayer, now that I was reminded Werebear exists. At most, single-classed with maybe a MC feat to qualify for a PP.

The Geomancer is... weird. This is one player who really appreciates complex builds, though, so I'm currently considering a Sorcerer/Invoker or Sorc/Druid hybrid for him. What more do you want to know, though?
He envisions himself as somewhat nature-y, as the geomancer is supposedly something like that. He follows a hunter god, and carries a longbow despite being **** with it. He's a Warmage in 3.5 (corrected my above post that said Sorcerer), so he's all about the big blasting spells, and very little else.

Actually, Sorc or Mage, hybrid Seeker could work very well... it would probably be a better representation of what he wanted in 3e than the Geomancer ever gave him, anyways.

I won't go into the character themselves for now, but I will say this : You can absolutely model the Rogue companion AND the grappling tiger!

What you do is that you make them into companion characters - the goal behind the action economy conservation of 4e with regards to summons and "pets" and such was to ensure that a given character did not bring more to the table than another. This is important for organised play and making sure one player doesn't hog all the spotlight. But in a friendly game, these considerations are much much less! Especially if you guys are coming from 3e where turn-time is vastly different from character to character.

Simply have them be companion characters and adjust the encounter XP accordingly - BAM! Awesome pets and followers.

... also that last character could probably be modeled by a [Seeker]! (no?)

Companion Characters are an option, but I'd like to try without first. The animal is easy, anyways. Many ways to do that.

As for the Rogue, he was mostly made so that we had a thief, and 4e makes it easy to get Thievery, so we can probably get rid of him. He was never much of a character in his own right, after all. We'll see.

[Vhaidara]

You could do the Geomancer as an Invoker|Wizard hybrid with Moonbow Dedicate (so he uses a bow as his implement). That's a solid hybrid (Sorc|Invoker has significant stat issues. Like, all of them, Sorc being Cha+Str/Dex and Invoker being Wis+Con/Int). So if you go for an Int/Wis Invoker|Wizard, you can MC druid (probably sentinel or protector, since wild shape won't be functional on the character)

[Highfeather]

The first two seem easy enough with Cleric and Ranger (or hybrids of those as both hybrid reasonably well). I'd recommend Fey Beast Tamer over the Beastmaster Ranger; it's easier and you end up losing class features on a Beastmaster Ranger which hurts your damage (Prime Shot and the feat tree that improves it at Paragon).

The bearbarian player should indeed just pick the Werebear theme and be done with that. It does have a small problem in liking to grab things, as you need a free hand for that. And Barbarians practically want to marry their huge two-handed axes/hammers/swords/spears. Though the Werebear 2nd level utility will let you grab somebody with your built-in theme MBA (which is sadly inaccurate), and I'm not quite sure how that interacts with two-handed weapons wielded when in Hybrid form. But grabs are pretty weak anyway; the only build specifically built around it is the Brawler Fighter. Sure, it's a Defender and not a Striker, but you can definitely wrestle something to the ground and hit hard.
If going Brawler Fighter, for example, take Inescapable Hold (MP2) and then boost your Fortitude into the stratosphere. Since grabbed enemies are immobilized, you can knock them prone on a subsequent attack with World Serpent's Grasp (HoFL/HoFK). Pin Down (D368) will make sure they can't stand up until they escape the grab, and take Headman's Chop (PHB3) for more damage against prone targets with axes and heavy blades. Then just keep one hand free and use a one-handed axe or heavy blade in the other. For even more damage, you count as having a 'Beast Form' active in your Hybrid form from your Werebear theme, so Claw Gloves (AV2) are fair game: melee attacks deal 1d10 extra damage against targets granting you combat advantage. Guess what prone enemies grant to melee attacks? Exactly. Initiate with a regular nondamaging Grab attack (pick up Improved Grab (PHB2) if you miss too often, sustain the grab with minor actions, then just keep using your best at-will attacks to knock the enemy prone and subsequently beat him down.
For added hilarity, swap Human to (Longtooth) Shifter (or refluff a Shifter a bit; you're a Werebear anyway...), go for a Str/Wis build and pick the Moonstalker Paragon Path (PHB2), which effectively lets you add an additional 2d6+Wis damage against prone targets (and +Wis for allies who go for a prone enemy adjacent to you).

If the Geomancer player wants complexity, I'll second the Invoker/Wizard Hybrid over the Sorcerer/Druid and Sorcerer/Invoker. Mostly because the first does fine Int/Wis in light armor, whereas the latter two are Cha/Wis in Cloth armor which destroys your AC, Fortitude, Reflex and any incentive to play a Sorcerer (its damage bonus).

Note that you're going to end up with a controller, not a striker. Big blasts, but not necessarily big damage. Blaster Wizards tend to be Genasi with Strength and Elemental Empowerment, or Evocation/Pyromancy Mages (which isn't really available as a hybrid), so those are off the table. Your standard Morninglord Radiant damage shenanigans are available for the Invoker though, if the player just wants to blast away.

If you think the Seeker embodies the concept more, be aware that it's a mediocre single target controller and doesn't do much blasting. That said, something like a Wizard/Seeker with the Moonbow Dedicate feat (D386) can still work, if only with shortbows. Most of the blasting will come from the Wizard side of things however, so do think about what you want to get out of your Seeker half.

The main problem with these Int/Wis builds is the race you wish to pick, Gnoll. I believe they get a Dex and Con boost, which doesn't line up with anything you want. To make matters worse, if going Moonbow Dedicate (especially on the Seeker), be careful with not starting with post-racial 18s in both Int and Wis at level 1. It's not disastrous (unless you forget to take your usual Expertise feats), but do keep in mind you lose Superior Implement options (as those aren't available as bows) as well as not having a +3 proficiency weapon (the shortbow is +2).
Considering you're starting at Epic, there's a way to combat the problem (at least fluff-wise). Primal Characters (Seeker!) can take the Reincarnate Champion ED (PrP), which allows you to count as another race at 21 (and yet another at 24). You then say you started at level 1 with an Int/Wis race and pick your desired race at level 21, which is the level you're actually starting at. It's technically a past life, but feel free to fluff away on appearance changes.

I'm not too familiar with Epic, but other things like Flight seem to be available in item form around then. Stuff like Zephyr Boots (AV1), though that item is at level 24 which a character starting at 21 technically can't buy yet. It could be found as a drop quickly, however.
Scent can be reasonably fluffed as taking stuff (like items) that boost your Perception. It keys off of Wisdom, which is a primary stat in all the above examples, so that should work out. There isn't really a 'Scent' ability to begin with, and really the only mention of scent is Gnoll Tracker (D367). Conveniently a Gnoll racial feat, but far too specific for it to be a good mechanical decision, unless the DM wants to throw them a few bones.
Even permanent Blindsight is easy at that point for Arcane characters (Wizard!). Take the Arcane Familiar feat (AP) (if the player doesn't 'want' a familiar, keep it permanently in passive mode and just fluff it as being part of him-/herself) and then the Sight of the Familiar (D382) feat. You do need to pick a familiar with blindsight however, but there are a few options: the Bat (AP), Floating Polyp (D397) and Wrab (D397) all have Blindsight 5. Then there's the Chaos Shard (D374), which is an Epic tier familiar with Blindsight 3.

I don't have direct build advice at Epic, but If necessary I can try. But I'm sure some other users are more experienced at it.

[ve4grm]

You could do the Geomancer as an Invoker|Wizard hybrid with Moonbow Dedicate (so he uses a bow as his implement). That's a solid hybrid (Sorc|Invoker has significant stat issues. Like, all of them, Sorc being Cha+Str/Dex and Invoker being Wis+Con/Int). So if you go for an Int/Wis Invoker|Wizard, you can MC druid (probably sentinel or protector, since wild shape won't be functional on the character)

I just found Moonbow Dedicate last night in my googling, and it's perfect! Definitely going in this build.

As for stats... Thing is, he's a Cha-based caster in 3.5, so ideally he'd stay with a high Cha class in 4e. As a Warmage it also feels like he should be a bit more striker-y?

I was actually thinking Elementalist (Cha/Con) and Invoker (Wis/Con), to reduce the MAD.
Or Evocation or Pyromancy Mage (Int/Con?) and Invoker (Wis/Int).
But I'm not sure how those work as hybrids?
Honestly, I just wish there was a Cha-based divine or primal class besides the Paladin.

The bearbarian player should indeed just pick the Werebear theme and be done with that. It does have a small problem in liking to grab things, as you need a free hand for that. And Barbarians practically want to marry their huge two-handed axes/hammers/swords/spears. Though the Werebear 2nd level utility will let you grab somebody with your built-in theme MBA (which is sadly inaccurate), and I'm not quite sure how that interacts with two-handed weapons wielded when in Hybrid form. But grabs are pretty weak anyway; the only build specifically built around it is the Brawler Fighter. Sure, it's a Defender and not a Striker, but you can definitely wrestle something to the ground and hit hard.

Grappling isn't necessary. That's just the most effective strategy for a large/huge-sized martial PC at high-level 3.5. Your damage is middling, so you may as well lock someone down. She'll be happy just hitting people hard.

As for the werebear theme... It doesn't look like it actually offers much to a Barbarian. You get a 1d8 MBA that marks (that's actually not bad if you want to be a bit defendery), low light vision, and a +1 to AC/Fort in bear form? You're good at talking to bears... which probably won't come up...
The ability to use beast and non-beast abilities in one form is only useful for Druids I think? And you become weak to silver and shapechanger things.

If the Geomancer player wants complexity, I'll second the Invoker/Wizard Hybrid over the Sorcerer/Druid and Sorcerer/Invoker. Mostly because the first does fine Int/Wis in light armor, whereas the latter two are Cha/Wis in Cloth armor which destroys your AC, Fortitude, Reflex and any incentive to play a Sorcerer (its damage bonus).

I thought you only got the worse armour proficiencies, so you'd still be in cloth?

Note that you're going to end up with a controller, not a striker. Big blasts, but not necessarily big damage. Blaster Wizards tend to be Genasi with Strength and Elemental Empowerment, or Evocation/Pyromancy Mages (which isn't really available as a hybrid), so those are off the table. Your standard Morninglord Radiant damage shenanigans are available for the Invoker though, if the player just wants to blast away.

Big booms or big damage, either can work. He varied between fireballs and single-target orbs and disintegrations.

I'm going to be going for only mid-optimization, so no shenanigans.

The main problem with these Int/Wis builds is the race you wish to pick, Gnoll. I believe they get a Dex and Con boost, which doesn't line up with anything you want. To make matters worse, if going Moonbow Dedicate (especially on the Seeker), be careful with not starting with post-racial 18s in both Int and Wis at level 1. It's not disastrous (unless you forget to take your usual Expertise feats), but do keep in mind you lose Superior Implement options (as those aren't available as bows) as well as not having a +3 proficiency weapon (the shortbow is +2).

All good points. I'm not concerned about Superior Implements, and he'll probably never use the bow as a weapon, so no worries there.

Considering you're starting at Epic, there's a way to combat the problem (at least fluff-wise). Primal Characters (Seeker!) can take the Reincarnate Champion ED (PrP), which allows you to count as another race at 21 (and yet another at 24). You then say you started at level 1 with an Int/Wis race and pick your desired race at level 21, which is the level you're actually starting at. It's technically a past life, but feel free to fluff away on appearance changes.

Interesting option.

I'm not too familiar with Epic, but other things like Flight seem to be available in item form around then. Stuff like Zephyr Boots (AV1), though that item is at level 24 which a character starting at 21 technically can't buy yet. It could be found as a drop quickly, however.
Scent can be reasonably fluffed as taking stuff (like items) that boost your Perception. It keys off of Wisdom, which is a primary stat in all the above examples, so that should work out. There isn't really a 'Scent' ability to begin with, and really the only mention of scent is Gnoll Tracker (D367). Conveniently a Gnoll racial feat, but far too specific for it to be a good mechanical decision, unless the DM wants to throw them a few bones.
Even permanent Blindsight is easy at that point for Arcane characters (Wizard!). Take the Arcane Familiar feat (AP) (if the player doesn't 'want' a familiar, keep it permanently in passive mode and just fluff it as being part of him-/herself) and then the Sight of the Familiar (D382) feat. You do need to pick a familiar with blindsight however, but there are a few options: the Bat (AP), Floating Polyp (D397) and Wrab (D397) all have Blindsight 5. Then there's the Chaos Shard (D374), which is an Epic tier familiar with Blindsight 3.

He doesn't actually have flight yet in 3.5, so that can wait a bit. Might be a PP thing, too.

For Scent, I'm the DM, so I can throw all the bones I want for the Gnoll. (Good dog.) That feat seems perfect, though, since penetrating an illusion or disguise (noticing an invisible or hidden enemy) is the main use of scent. He likely won't have any tracking skill, as he didn't before, so I don't even have to let him use it for that.

For blindsight, there's also utility powers that give blindsight for entire enounters, which might work just as well. Good option, though.

I don't have direct build advice at Epic, but If necessary I can try. But I'm sure some other users are more experienced at it.

No worries. We can figure that one out as we go.

Thanks a lot!

[Dimers]

As for stats... Thing is, he's a Cha-based caster in 3.5, so ideally he'd stay with a high Cha class in 4e. As a Warmage it also feels like he should be a bit more striker-y?

If you don't object to refluffing, I'd recommend something other than a caster class. Rogues can use bow/crossbow/sling for some very "blasty" attacks and they like Charisma just fine. Alternatively, use Bard but replace most of their bard powers using themes, MC swap feats, or paragon paths like Resourceful Magician.

I was actually thinking Elementalist (Cha/Con) and Invoker (Wis/Con), to reduce the MAD. Or Evocation or Pyromancy Mage (Int/Con?) and Invoker (Wis/Int). But I'm not sure how those work as hybrids?

Disallowed, I'm afraid. There is no hybrid Elementalist or specialist Wizard. I mean, it wouldn't be hard to homebrew, but none is available by RAW.

As for the werebear theme... you become weak to silver and shapechanger things.

I'd be mildly surprised if a single published enemy besides silver dragons and githyanki (silver swords) had anything that even mentioned silver in its attacks. That aside, well, not many themes make drastic changes, so werebear isn't unusual in that regard. Most of your Heroic-Tier stuff will come from class(es), second-most from race, unless you're building around the theme in particular.

Whoops, outta time. I like playing the conversion game!

[Vhaidara]

The trick with Werebear comes from an item called Claw Gloves. Hand slot item, while you're in Beast form and attacking with Combat Advantage, your melee attacks deal +1d10 damage. Since the werethemes give you a beast form and the level 10 feature lets you keep using your weapons...

Admittedly, it's usually more of a low-mid paragon damage source since it doesn't scale up, but it is a capable source of easy damage. And since it just eats theme and arm slot, you can combine it with something like permafrost for easy CA (making it easier to trigger claw gloves)

[masteraleph]

The trick with Werebear comes from an item called Claw Gloves. Hand slot item, while you're in Beast form and attacking with Combat Advantage, your melee attacks deal +1d10 damage. Since the werethemes give you a beast form and the level 10 feature lets you keep using your weapons...

Admittedly, it's usually more of a low-mid paragon damage source since it doesn't scale up, but it is a capable source of easy damage. And since it just eats theme and arm slot, you can combine it with something like permafrost for easy CA (making it easier to trigger claw gloves)

Hands slot, not arms slot- doesn't work as well with permafrost, works fine with Iron Armbands.

The key, though, is that it's 1d10 EXTRA damage. Extra damage is applied to all applicable damage sources (in this case, "melee attacks"), whether or not there's damage roll. So it applies to Flurry of Blows from the Monk (all of which are melee attacks with no damage roll or hit), etc.

[Vhaidara]

Hands slot, not arms slot- doesn't work as well with permafrost, works fine with Iron Armbands.

The key, though, is that it's 1d10 EXTRA damage. Extra damage is applied to all applicable damage sources (in this case, "melee attacks"), whether or not there's damage roll. So it applies to Flurry of Blows from the Monk (all of which are melee attacks with no damage roll or hit), etc.

I mean, it still works pretty damn well with permafrost. 1d10 averages 5.5, so even if you're using gloves of ice to beat out resist instead of for straight damage, claw gloves comes out slightly ahead until epic. And permafrost is an excellent source of easy CA

[ve4grm]

Right, so the claws are an option for sure, if I go that way.

I am trying to make things straightforward and avoid cheese, though, so I'm going to avoid permafrost and other such builds.

[Yakk]

Please don't give a bunch of people completely unoptimized 4e epic level heros and expect the game to work.

If you consider a basic permafrost combo to be cheese, your level 21 characters will be unplayable in my experience. Fights will take forever and feel like fighting wearing nerf armor and weapons.

---

At the same time, keep things under control.

At level 21, normal monsters have about 200 HP.

If an attack combination deals less than 50 damage (average) when it hits, it will just be tickling monsters.

A solid level 21 character capable of dealing ok single target damage should be dealing at least 50 damage average *after accounting for misses*. This is a 4-round striker. At 100 damage per round they are a *very strong* striker. Below 25 per round and they are not contributing significantly to damage.

Someone with massive ally-friendly AOEs can get away with half that, or 75% if not massive area or not ally friendly, and still contribute to getting creatures dead in a reasonable time frame.

Permafrost + Lasting Frost + Frost damage combo is 3 "picks" for 5 damage per hit. A level 21 character has 13 feats, 7 "worn" item slots, 1-2 weapon/implements, a paragon path, an epic destiny, a theme, and build choice, or about 25 picks. Plus 3 encounter and daily attack powers and 2 at-wills.

Base damage with a basic attack equivalent is 24 at level 21 (2d8+9+6). So on average, a pick needs to generate 1 point of damage on a hit to reach "you aren't tickling the foe". Those 3 picks generate 1.67, barely above the minimium, and you'll want to keep some picks for improved defences (AC, NAD, saves, etc) and accuracy (expertise!) and fun.

If your average pick is as good as those 3 together, you reach "ok at making things dead" level of damage output even accounting for missing (50 DPR at level 21).

[ve4grm]

Please don't give a bunch of people completely unoptimized 4e epic level heros and expect the game to work.

If you consider a basic permafrost combo to be cheese, your level 21 characters will be unplayable in my experience. Fights will take forever and feel like fighting wearing nerf armor and weapons.

No worries, man, I won't build them completely unoptimized, or anything.

I call Permafrost (which I believe is the same thing originally known as Frostcheese?) cheesy, because it's highly dependent on the interaction between specific bits of gear (specifically that it only works with a Frost weapon), and using them in unintended ways, rather than the character's abilities, and thus is something that might never happen in an organic game progression. Also, if you remove that one piece of gear, the entire build falls apart.

(My feeling has always been that gear should be a bonus on top of the character, not a required part of a build.)

That said, if someone built a frost Elementalist, focused on frost spells, and threw Lasting Frost over top of that, then I have no problem with it. Remove the gloves that let you penetrate frost resistance, and they're still almost as effective. Remove any one power or feat, and they're still pretty solid. But give a Frostcheese Rogue a non-Frost weapon, and they're suddenly sub-optimal because a bunch of their stuff is built around that single piece of gear.

Anyways, specific feat choices, and especially gear choices, are all getting a bit ahead of ourselves for this topic.

To your other points:

I'll also be giving everyone an expertise feat for free.

As for length of fights, I'll probably be using a +Damage/-HP modification on monsters to help with that.

[Dimers]

Please don't give a bunch of people completely unoptimized 4e epic level heros and expect the game to work.

If you consider a basic permafrost combo to be cheese, your level 21 characters will be unplayable in my experience. Fights will take forever and feel like fighting wearing nerf armor and weapons.

Or scale the enemies down 1 or 2 levels to account for the lower degree of optimization. That's a choice a DM has to make based on her particular players and characters -- it's not like every table is supposed to play exactly the same.

But yeah, frostcheese is certainly not over-the-top.

My personal complaint with frostcheese, radiantcheese, etc. is that it doesn't feel heroic to me to rely on a particular magic item for your schtick. If you pick lots of cold powers to do frostcheese, great! But if you have to use a freezing weapon to convert your damage ... meh. EDIT: Hah! Ninja'ed! "Frederic, without a K." "Mabel, also without a K. God, we have so much in common!"

[ve4grm]

My personal complaint with frostcheese, radiantcheese, etc. is that it doesn't feel heroic to me to rely on a particular magic item for your schtick. If you pick lots of cold powers to do frostcheese, great! But if you have to use a freezing weapon to convert your damage ... meh. EDIT: Hah! Ninja'ed!

Ha! Yes, exactly this.

[Vhaidara]

I call Permafrost (which I believe is the same thing originally known as Frostcheese?) cheesy, because it's highly dependent on the interaction between specific bits of gear (specifically that it only works with a Frost weapon), and using them in unintended ways, rather than the character's abilities, and thus is something that might never happen in an organic game progression. Also, if you remove that one piece of gear, the entire build falls apart.

I might have agreed with this if Lasting Frost and Wintertouched weren't from the same book, literally pages (2 of them) apart, and if that same book didn't contain frost weapons. Additionally, Wintertouched is SO niche that i can't see it being included as a core feat WITHOUT the idea that you would have some access to applying vuln. Like, say, the one two pages away.

While I can agree on not liking being reliant on items, 4e doesn't really include item breakage and removal the way other editions do, so it's easy to fluff that as an inherent aspect of your character. Otherwise Elemental damage optimization becomes purely the realm of the Arcane (with a bit for Primal and radiant for Divine), which is just bloody sad.

[Dimers]

While I can agree on not liking being reliant on items, 4e doesn't really include item breakage and removal the way other editions do, so it's easy to fluff that as an inherent aspect of your character.

It's easy if your game uses inherent bonuses or some other way of automatically upgrading the key item, and charm-dominating monsters don't force the PC to throw away the item, and the PCs don't use their equipment in a sensible but unconventional way ("I jam my sword in the closing wall so Fighter Bob has enough time to get back through!"), and the DM homebrews no disarming or item-destroying abilities, and ... well.

Working with RAW published materials, you're generally right, but it's probably better* not to rely on a given item.

* Better for my idea of what "heroic" should be, natch.

[ve4grm]

Regardless, it's still drifting away from three actual topic at hand.

THAT SAID... The barbarian does currently have a frost greatsword in 3.5... So we'll see what I do in the end anyways.

[ve4grm]

So... been working on these a bit. The game won't be happening for a few months, as my wife is running 13th Age for us in the meantime.

Bear in mind these are not aiming for top optimization, but rather just being decent builds that capture the characters.

The Human Favoured Soul has become a Wis/Cha Melee/Ranged Human Cleric (Battle Cleric's Lore)/(Knight Hospitaler)/Tactical Warpriest/Exalted Angel.
Feats and powers largely to be decided, but at-wills include Brand of the Moon (melee cold/radiant and save bonus), Storm Hammer (melee charge vs Fort thunder/lightning), and the always popular Sacred Flame (ranged option, just in case).
Might grab an MC into something, but for now it's not needed.

The Elf Ranger is now a Dex/Wis Elf Ranger (Archer)/(Fey Beast Tamer)/Either Battlefield Archer or Sharpshooter/??? ED ???.

The Human Bear Warrior is not yet designed.

The Human FS/WM/Geomancer is currently being built in two ways, to see which I like most.
Cha/Wis/Dex Human Hybrid Sorcerer(Dex)|Druid(Dex)/(Werewolf)/??/??
and Int/Wis Human Hybrid Wizard|Druid/(Werewolf)/??/??
The elemental nature of the Druid's attacks benefits the character's theming more than Invoker does. The Werewolf theme and the occasional beast power from the Druid covers the "Drift" of the Geomancer pretty well, too.
AC isn't great, unfortunately. Using Invoker instead would allow me to grab Chain prof easily, but at the expense of the above.
Sorcerer (and Cha casting in general) fits the theme better than Wizard, but the Dex score suffers. It's not awful, but it'll deal less damage than a pure Sorc for sure. (+7 compared to +10 damage, probably? So honestly not a huge difference.)

More ideas are welcome.

[Yakk]

Chain should be worse AC than a decent dex hide armor character. Did you do the math wrong?

[ve4grm]

Chain should be worse AC than a decent dex hide armor character. Did you do the math wrong?

I don't think so?

Hide goes up to +11 total (+6 enh, +5 armour) (or +10 AC, +2 Fort) according to here: http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Armor
Chain goes up to +18 (or +17 AC, +2 Will).
So I think you need a +7 Dex to make up for it? He has a +3 or +4, so far, as Dex is the tertiary stat, behind the primaries for his two classes.

If I can get his Con up to 17, Second Skin would help, but Con is at a lower priority than even Dex is.

Am I missing something key?

EDIT: Or can you suggest a stat build for this sort of character that might work? Level 21.

[Vhaidara]

Most people wearing light armor will pick up an Elven Chain Shirt, which is +tier to AC when in light/no armor, which brings the match down to +5 (since the epic one is an end game epic). Though with split primaries, yeah, his dex is more teritiary than secondary.

[ve4grm]

I mean, it's not a super big deal if his AC isn't spectacular - he's a ranged caster, mostly. But as a Geomancer he's currently wearing mithral breastplate, so he might be a bit disappointed.

Invoker would remove the Dex dependency... might get it just for that. Maybe MC for some Druid beast form powers.

Ok, so how does this sound?
Int/Wis Wizard|Invoker, MC Druid, a Power Swap feat or two for some cool Beast powers.
Werewolf Theme, constantly in hybrid wolf form
Chainmail

...I really wish there was a better way to make this guy more striker-y, or have him be a Charisma caster.

[Vhaidara]

Well, you can build a strikery Wizard, evocation has some good powers. Though they are generally more about AoE damage.

Likewise, Predator druids can do a good job minoring in strikery. And invokers can do a good job if they go for the morninglord PP and setup radiant mafia OP.

Unfporunately for Cha primaries between primal, divine, and arcane, you're stuck with Sorc and Warlock for strikers (bard if role isn't relevant). Divines and Primals both have this big love of Wisdom and Strength.

[ve4grm]

Now I'm tossing around the idea of a Sorcerer|Chaladin hybrid. Again maybe MC Druid for some beast-form utilities.
I'll need to house rule that he can take his at-wills all from Sorc, as there are no ranged or implement Paladin at-wills, but that's minor.

Thoughts on effectiveness of Sorc/Pal vs Wiz/Druid?

[Vhaidara]

Sorc|pal can be a really effective hybrid. And since sorcerer implements of choice are Staff and Dagger, they can still use weapon powers.

The one I've played with used an Aversion Staff, since "marked" is a condition. Which basically turned all paladin marks into "-2 to hit everything". Combine that with a lot of the dragon sorcerer powers that give you defensive boosts, and you can end up sickeningly tanky while still outputting sorcerer damage.

[Dacia Brabant]

Paladin|Sorcerer is what I would recommend, or (bear with me) Blackguard|Sorcerer. Vice of Fury is one of only two hybrid striker features that I'm aware of that can be doubled up on another hybrid striker class's attacks, the other being the E-Assassin's Attack Finesse. It's a straight +2 to all damage rolls with CA, +4 if you're bloodied or adjacent to a bloodied creature, though for this to mean anything in epic I'd increase these bonuses as a house rule. Get yourself a good CA setup, grab all the multitargeting or AoE powers you can, be a Revenant Gnoll--which gets you the +2 Cha you want as a Sorcadin--so you can stay bloodied forever and go to town.

[Vhaidara]

Similarly, Cavalier|Sorcerer swaps your piddly paladin mark for a defender aura that can be coupled with +4 initiative and +2 surge value. And, because hybrid, you get proper choice of paladin at wills and encounters