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    Default Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Wanda's rule in Erfworld is that when Fate has a plan for you, you can respond by taking the "hard way" or the "easy way". You must accept your fate and go along with it. If you try to fight Fate things end up much, much worse for you.

    Hurok tried to fight Fate. He bequeathed something much worse. Firuk Blackore is about to spill the secret. Will the moral of his telling be Wanda's Rule? How would Roy react?
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Humanist View Post
    Wanda's rule in Erfworld is that when Fate has a plan for you, you can respond by taking the "hard way" or the "easy way". You must accept your fate and go along with it. If you try to fight Fate things end up much, much worse for you.

    Hurok tried to fight Fate. He bequeathed something much worse. Firuk Blackore is about to spill the secret. Will the moral of his telling be Wanda's Rule? How would Roy react?
    If they accepted fate... then the next time Durkon returned home, he would have brought death and destruction. It seems like what's happening now isn't much, much worse, so much as exactly as advertised.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If they accepted fate... then the next time Durkon returned home, he would have brought death and destruction. It seems like what's happening now isn't much, much worse, so much as exactly as advertised.
    See, I don't even look at it like that. IMO, 'fate' knew ahead of time how the dwarves would react when given the prophecy. Thus there was no 'easy' option ever on the table.

    Why?

    Because if the dwarves were going to take the easy option, it would have invalidated the prophecy, causing it to never occur. And if a prophecy can't occur, it'll never be given in the first place.

    To put it another way, this was a prediction, not a curse. Under a curse, no matter what the dwarves did, it would happen. But a prediction is just saying "I know what you're going to do and what the consequences will be".

    Couched in flowery language, sure. But ultimately no more than that.

    Where it gets interesting is when we get into the bake your noodle speech from The Matrix part of this prophecy. But that's half the fun of prophecies.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    See, I don't even look at it like that. IMO, 'fate' knew ahead of time how the dwarves would react when given the prophecy. Thus there was no 'easy' option ever on the table.

    Why?

    Because if the dwarves were going to take the easy option, it would have invalidated the prophecy, causing it to never occur. And if a prophecy can't occur, it'll never be given in the first place.

    To put it another way, this was a prediction, not a curse. Under a curse, no matter what the dwarves did, it would happen. But a prediction is just saying "I know what you're going to do and what the consequences will be".

    Couched in flowery language, sure. But ultimately no more than that.

    Where it gets interesting is when we get into the bake your noodle speech from The Matrix part of this prophecy. But that's half the fun of prophecies.
    Oh, I fully agree with you; I was just trying to take on the idea from the side of "what if they had just let it be?"
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    I suppose if they had let it be, fate would have bent so the death and destruction might have been caused by Durkon accidentally blowing up the beer supply and starting a small war for what remained or something of that nature. Not potential destruction of the world. But who knows.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    This isn't Erfworld. If they hadn't tried to carnymance the prophecy, it would never have come to pass. It's as simple as that.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, I fully agree with you; I was just trying to take on the idea from the side of "what if they had just let it be?"
    I'm going to be a stick in the mud (no pun intended) and say if they had let it be, I am firmly of the belief that nothing would happen. At any point.

    So an interesting thought experiment, sure, but not much more than that.

    ===

    The only way the prophecy COULD have still happened, IMO, is if Durkon timed his exiting and re-entering the temple for the first time just as the Snarl devours the world or the Gods destroy it in an effort to contain it. This being under the theory that the presence of Durkon in Team OOTS is essential to saving the world. But that's pretty hair splitting and I can't say I really like it.

    But the idea that Durkon is essential to saving the world IS a way of looking at the prophecy that doesn't make Odin a Complete Jerkass. That is, Durkon leaving the way he did set off a long chain of dominoes that will ensure the safety of the whole world, if with some major heartache along the way for far too many people.

    Mind, he still might be a Major Jerkass, but at least Odin wouldn't be a Complete one.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2017-08-29 at 10:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    I think the moral is going to be that Hurak tried to avoid the prophecy by being a cruel ass to one of the most loyal dwarfs and now it's come back to bite everyone in the ass.

    EDIT: I'm saying that, because Rich generally prefers to say something tangible about the world rather than stuff about concepts as abstract as fate. So, I think he's trying to say "don't be an ass" as opposed to do world-building about how fate works in the OotS.
    Last edited by SilverCacaobean; 2017-08-29 at 10:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    I think the moral is going to be that Hurak tried to avoid the prophecy by being a cruel ass to one of the most loyal dwarfs and now it's come back to bite everyone in the ass.

    EDIT: I'm saying that, because Rich generally prefers to say something tangible about the world rather than stuff about concepts as abstract as fate. So, I think he's trying to say "don't be an ass" as opposed to do world-building about how fate works in the OotS.
    Imean, it's basically Oedipean; prophecy is heard that Dude will cause bad things, Person in Charge tries to get rid of Dude to avoid the prophecy, ends up fulfilling the prophecy.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Imean, it's basically Oedipean; prophecy is heard that Dude will cause bad things, Person in Charge tries to get rid of Dude to avoid the prophecy, ends up fulfilling the prophecy.
    On an entirely unrelated note, let's hope that both Durkon and his mother recognize each other when/if they next meet.

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I'm going to be a stick in the mud (no pun intended) and say if they had let it be, I am firmly of the belief that nothing would happen. At any point.
    Thing is, the story where Durkon never got kicked out of Dwarven lands is not the one we're reading, so you can't assume that everything else would have worked the same. Maybe, if they'd just let him return home to his Ma, he would have found her murdered by hands unknown, and that would have tipped him over the edge into madness, causing him to go on his own killing spree?

    The simple fact is, a prophecy in a story like this will *always* come true. It might come true if people do nothing about it, or it might be forced to happen by people's actions to avert it, as happened here. It will never turn out to just be plain wrong.

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Odin chose to give the prophecy to his high priest for a reason. If he knew kicking Durkon out is what the prophecy was referring to, why would he even tell his priest? He could have kept it to himself.

    But then Durkon wouldn't have met Roy, become friends, gave him the confidence to go after Xykon, and set in motion the events that put them in a position to stop the Dark One's plan and possibly reseal the rifts.

    There's no reality where Durkon doesn't leave home, because that path most likely would have ended with them having to remake the world or worse if the Dark One succeeded. I don't think it should be viewed as "the dwarves caused the prophecy by avoiding it", but as "Odin gave them that prophecy specifically to set those events in motion for the greater good".

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    Odin chose to give the prophecy to his high priest for a reason. If he knew kicking Durkon out is what the prophecy was referring to, why would he even tell his priest? He could have kept it to himself.

    But then Durkon wouldn't have met Roy, become friends, gave him the confidence to go after Xykon, and set in motion the events that put them in a position to stop the Dark One's plan and possibly reseal the rifts.

    There's no reality where Durkon doesn't leave home, because that path most likely would have ended with them having to remake the world or worse if the Dark One succeeded. I don't think it should be viewed as "the dwarves caused the prophecy by avoiding it", but as "Odin gave them that prophecy specifically to set those events in motion for the greater good".
    Are we talking about the "I like puppets" and "Ooooo! Doggie!" Odin here? The comic hasn't exactly pictured him as someone capable of planning ahead, is what I am saying...

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Thing is, the story where Durkon never got kicked out of Dwarven lands is not the one we're reading, so you can't assume that everything else would have worked the same. Maybe, if they'd just let him return home to his Ma, he would have found her murdered by hands unknown, and that would have tipped him over the edge into madness, causing him to go on his own killing spree?

    The simple fact is, a prophecy in a story like this will *always* come true. It might come true if people do nothing about it, or it might be forced to happen by people's actions to avert it, as happened here. It will never turn out to just be plain wrong.
    Well, except for the fact that the Oracle lies, and no prophecy has come true yet ("the" death, not "a" death! Also ignore all other prophecies), and every other way to really reach just because some people want Belkar to not die.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, except for the fact that the Oracle lies, and no prophecy has come true yet ("the" death, not "a" death! Also ignore all other prophecies), and every other way to really reach just because some people want Belkar to not die.

    From what I have read, the Oracle has never lied (with the one exception of trying to avoid being stabbed by Belkar, which wasn't even really lying, just convince him that it his prophesy of killing people was already finished.) Really, The Oracle not lying is what makes his smugness extra *explative explative* of a jerk face. 99% of the time he can tell the truth and mock people for not knowing as much as he does with no repercussions.

    also, it occurs to me you might be sarcastic here.... oh well

    I think it would be appropriate if Belkar get killed by the MiTD during the final confrontation. Its about the only thing ( I think, maybe?) that he does not get bonus's against.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Seriously, can we please try to be grownups and not try to heckle other members? At least in discussions they haven't participated in... It's no fun seeing the same argument about the Oracle's prophecies brought up again and again. You don't need to advertise that you do not agree with what Another member posted in Another thread.

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    Seriously, can we please try to be grownups and not try to heckle other members? At least in discussions they haven't participated in... It's no fun seeing the same argument about the Oracle's prophecies brought up again and again. You don't need to advertise that you do not agree with what Another member posted in Another thread.
    I don't think they are trying to 'heckle' anyone. They're just discussing the Oracle's prophecies, and despite previous discussions, they still disagree.

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    I agree with those saying this is a very straight-forward attempt to thwart a prophecy by attempting to make it impossible, and consequently causing it to happen. The original meaning of hubris, right?

    Struggling against the inevitable is another very old concept, often praised in literature, even if unwise. However, this doesn't look like a choice between suffering vs. acceptance.

    I don't see any suffering as a direct result of struggling against the inevitable, here, simply because those who suffered did not have a choice, nor did they resist. Durkon very obediently followed directions and went into exile.

    (ps: nevermind Wonda -- these are all ancient concepts)

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Thing is, the story where Durkon never got kicked out of Dwarven lands is not the one we're reading, so you can't assume that everything else would have worked the same. Maybe, if they'd just let him return home to his Ma, he would have found her murdered by hands unknown, and that would have tipped him over the edge into madness, causing him to go on his own killing spree?

    The simple fact is, a prophecy in a story like this will *always* come true. It might come true if people do nothing about it, or it might be forced to happen by people's actions to avert it, as happened here. It will never turn out to just be plain wrong.
    Given that his Ma wasn't murdered, that seems unlikely.

    More seriously, while your point is true from a Doyalist perspective, from a Watsonian perspective, that's at odds with the idea that characters have free will and are able to plot their own destinies. For a prophecy to be prescriptive like that, fate needs to be written already, people don't actually have any ability to change anything, and the entire act of prophecy is pointless in the first place because the characters cant change their behavior. And while there are probably some stories where free will is an illusion, Rich's comments about the importance of choice and consequences to actions make it seem unlikely that this is that kind of story.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    See, I don't even look at it like that. IMO, 'fate' knew ahead of time how the dwarves would react when given the prophecy. Thus there was no 'easy' option ever on the table.

    Why?

    Because if the dwarves were going to take the easy option, it would have invalidated the prophecy, causing it to never occur. And if a prophecy can't occur, it'll never be given in the first place.

    To put it another way, this was a prediction, not a curse. Under a curse, no matter what the dwarves did, it would happen. But a prediction is just saying "I know what you're going to do and what the consequences will be".

    Couched in flowery language, sure. But ultimately no more than that.

    Where it gets interesting is when we get into the bake your noodle speech from The Matrix part of this prophecy. But that's half the fun of prophecies.
    It's the ol' self-fulfilling prophecy trope...

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ornithologist View Post
    From what I have read, the Oracle has never lied (with the one exception of trying to avoid being stabbed by Belkar, which wasn't even really lying, just convince him that it his prophesy of killing people was already finished.) Really, The Oracle not lying is what makes his smugness extra *explative explative* of a jerk face. 99% of the time he can tell the truth and mock people for not knowing as much as he does with no repercussions.

    also, it occurs to me you might be sarcastic here.... oh well

    I think it would be appropriate if Belkar get killed by the MiTD during the final confrontation. Its about the only thing ( I think, maybe?) that he does not get bonus's against.
    Oh, I'm absolutely being sarcastic. Frankly, I'm (pleasantly) surprised that the exact argument I'm mocking hasn't showed up in earnest on this thread yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    Seriously, can we please try to be grownups and not try to heckle other members? At least in discussions they haven't participated in... It's no fun seeing the same argument about the Oracle's prophecies brought up again and again. You don't need to advertise that you do not agree with what Another member posted in Another thread.
    Point taken. I'll try to be better in the future.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-08-30 at 01:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elanasaurus View Post
    I don't think they are trying to 'heckle' anyone. They're just discussing the Oracle's prophecies, and despite previous discussions, they still disagree.
    This post is parodying some things posted elsewhere.

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    Are we talking about the "I like puppets" and "Ooooo! Doggie!" Odin here? The comic hasn't exactly pictured him as someone capable of planning ahead, is what I am saying...
    He appears much more serious and perhaps knowledgeable during the godsmoot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Given that his Ma wasn't murdered, that seems unlikely.

    More seriously, while your point is true from a Doyalist perspective, from a Watsonian perspective, that's at odds with the idea that characters have free will and are able to plot their own destinies. For a prophecy to be prescriptive like that, fate needs to be written already, people don't actually have any ability to change anything, and the entire act of prophecy is pointless in the first place because the characters cant change their behavior. And while there are probably some stories where free will is an illusion, Rich's comments about the importance of choice and consequences to actions make it seem unlikely that this is that kind of story.
    I don't see it that way at all though. Prophecies and free will can merrily co-exist. All a prophecy is, ultimately, is a prediction on what a person is going to do/event is going to be. A person choosing their own path in life of their own volition and agency is not at cross purposes with that.

    What IS at cross purposes is the idea that the future is undetermined and not fixed. But, again, that's not quite the same thing.

    The analogy I like to make is the one of the time-traveller and stable time loops. From our perspective, everything in the past has already happened. We know what people did (if not why). They all collectively chose, through their free will, a set of decisions that formed The Present. Now if I had access to a time machine, went back in time, and didn't interact with anyone, I could theoretically have perfect knowledge of what was going to happen.

    The thing is, all the people around me still have their free will even though I know (broadly speaking) what will happen. This really isn't that different. Especially once the concept of stable time loops are introduced, which then lets me interact with people without changing anything.

    To me, the idea that free will and prophecies can't co-exist is a philosophical one. But it's more based on the idea that the future is open ended and not fixed. But, for me at least, a fixed future and people having free will/agency is not a contradiction in terms.

    NB: I'm not saying I personally believe the future is fixed or open-ended. Just that I don't think it matters one jot to the concepts of free will or agency.
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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    I don't quite see it that way. I'm not actually a fan of prophecy in stories, simply because, to my mind, it *does* essentially mean the world runs on rails and nobody has any free will. Oh, you could have some sort of general prediction of the future that relies on what people are likely to do in a world with free will, but here we have predictions where the Oracle is able to tell you exactly how many words you will utter during the resolution of the prophecy, or where he can pinpoint his own future death so precisely that his lizardfolk assistants teleport in literally within a minute or two of the perpetrators leaving. I just don't believe being able to forecast the future to that level of accuracy is possible in a world with free will.

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I don't quite see it that way. I'm not actually a fan of prophecy in stories, simply because, to my mind, it *does* essentially mean the world runs on rails and nobody has any free will. Oh, you could have some sort of general prediction of the future that relies on what people are likely to do in a world with free will, but here we have predictions where the Oracle is able to tell you exactly how many words you will utter during the resolution of the prophecy, or where he can pinpoint his own future death so precisely that his lizardfolk assistants teleport in literally within a minute or two of the perpetrators leaving. I just don't believe being able to forecast the future to that level of accuracy is possible in a world with free will.
    That's one place where stories and reality conflict. We try to paper over it, but the truth is that, whether free will exists or not in the real world, in the fictional world of a story there is only one: The authors. Everything that happens in the story -- the actions of the characters, the actions of the universe, the smallest pebble falling, or a single raindrop on a stone -- it all happens because the author spared the time and attention to write it in.

    And the author knows, backwards and forwards, what's going to happen in the story. Even if they start off with a draft and later changes zir mind, there's nothing stopping zir from stepping back and rewriting an earlier chapter to match up more closely with a new idea.

    To the characters in the story, time is linear and they don't notice these changes. But to the author past, present, and future are all malleable. If ze doesn't like the past that leads up to a chapter, ze can make up a new one, maybe throwing away whole chapters of now-obsolete timeline. All of which the characters are unaware of. They will have no recollection of an alternate timeline, even in a deju vu.

    At any rate, this is why prophecy is such a common thread in fantasy stories. There really is no free will in a story, and authors delight in tossing in cryptic clues to engage audience attention and keep them interested in the story. Rich has been using similar tricks with OOTS all along (Oracular prophecies, V's gender, the "four words", what the MITD really is).

    That's not really a feature we can change about stories. We can only simulate it, not really have it.

    So all stories do run on rails, no story has free will, and all stories have potential prophecy in them. The craft in the storyteller is in how well they hide this, to make us think it is a real world with real characters.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I don't quite see it that way. I'm not actually a fan of prophecy in stories, simply because, to my mind, it *does* essentially mean the world runs on rails and nobody has any free will. Oh, you could have some sort of general prediction of the future that relies on what people are likely to do in a world with free will, but here we have predictions where the Oracle is able to tell you exactly how many words you will utter during the resolution of the prophecy, or where he can pinpoint his own future death so precisely that his lizardfolk assistants teleport in literally within a minute or two of the perpetrators leaving. I just don't believe being able to forecast the future to that level of accuracy is possible in a world with free will.
    I guess that depends on how one defines free will, no? Just because someone can predict what I am going to do doesn't me that I didn't choose it freely and with full agency.

    Now the argument about it mattering, is one that is on much more solid ground, though still a philosophical argument, I'd say. In fact, I tend to wonder if that's where the real argument is. But for me as long as Hypothetical Story Me got to freely choose their path it doesn't matter to Hypothetical Story Me whether or not some sarcastic joker off in a tower knew what I was going to do. All that matters to Hypothetical Story Me is that I was the one who chose the options and accepted the consequences.

    That someone knows what I will do is interesting, I suppose, but ultimately irrelevant as long as I made the choice in the first place.

    Perhaps it's just a difference in perspective. Dunno.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
    Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
    Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
    Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes


    __________________________

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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    I'm not sure how old the Erfworld comic / rule is, but sounds a lot like how Loial always tried to explain tavaeren to Mat Cauthon in the Wheel of Time series. The Pattern was GOING to weave you where it wanted, and if you went with it, you were usually happier and could control some small things around the edges.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I guess that depends on how one defines free will, no? Just because someone can predict what I am going to do doesn't me that I didn't choose it freely and with full agency.
    OK, let's put this another way. The prediction of what you're going to do might well depend on the weather, right? After all, you're not going to sun yourself on the beach in the middle of a storm. The thing is with weather, it's a chaotic system, and that means it's essentially impossible to predict over any great length of time. If you were to build a perfect model of the Earth's atmosphere in a computer, and you were somehow able to populate it with accurate temperature, pressure and wind measurements taken at 1m intervals throughout the atmosphere, and then let it run, your model would still show a state completely different from reality within a month or two of starting it--because you didn't have precise information about what was happening in between your 1m measurements.

    So, since it's effectively impossible to predict what the weather will be doing in a month's time, how can you possibly predict what a person will be doing then, especially when you have to take into account their interactions with hundreds of other people? This is why I believe prophecy denies free will--the only way to know the future is to define what that future is for everything, from the smallest zephyr of wind to the great war between two nations.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Are we heading towards a Wanda's Rule moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    OK, let's put this another way. The prediction of what you're going to do might well depend on the weather, right? After all, you're not going to sun yourself on the beach in the middle of a storm. The thing is with weather, it's a chaotic system, and that means it's essentially impossible to predict over any great length of time. If you were to build a perfect model of the Earth's atmosphere in a computer, and you were somehow able to populate it with accurate temperature, pressure and wind measurements taken at 1m intervals throughout the atmosphere, and then let it run, your model would still show a state completely different from reality within a month or two of starting it--because you didn't have precise information about what was happening in between your 1m measurements.

    So, since it's effectively impossible to predict what the weather will be doing in a month's time, how can you possibly predict what a person will be doing then, especially when you have to take into account their interactions with hundreds of other people? This is why I believe prophecy denies free will--the only way to know the future is to define what that future is for everything, from the smallest zephyr of wind to the great war between two nations.
    Magic? Just because we humans cant do it doesn't mean there isn't a hypothetical being or thing that does understand all the variables and all the details.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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