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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Ser Loras's Avatar

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    Default Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Hello all!

    In planning ahead for a game I'm playing with my little sister I've decided that the city her little elf lives in will pay host to a tournament featuring knights from all over the realm. It'll form the backdrop to a few criminal operations she'll be getting involved in (she's playing a Rogue from the poor part of town), and several events during the tournament will set up vague plot hooks for later on in the game.

    Spoiler: Tournament Bracket
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    (The names that are cut off read "Aegon the Dragonknight" and "The Bastard of Bastion."


    Does anybody have any suggestions for how I could roll out each joust? Without taking into consideration just yet any of the cheating or advantages that may be given to one or more knights by her or others' meddling, does anyone have an idea for a system to determine the winner of each game? (I was thinking, to keep it really simple, I'd just roll a d20 and whoever got the higher number won, with actions taken in the game conferring advantage or disadvantage on some knights depending on what has been done to them or their horses behind the scenes but...I'm curious to see what the forum can come up with!)

    Thanks! :D

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Hrmmm, I'd go a bit more complicated.

    Use an attack roll, at least a roll made with the users bonus on Lance attacks (Prof+Str assuming they're proficient in Lances) In this case, you're not penetrating armor (since that's not the point), but trying to place your lance such that you'll knock your opponent off their horse. This isn't a to-hit roll, but it uses their attack bonus. If the user has some ability that would cause the lance attack to deal more damage (Such as the Charger feat), you can give them a bonus on the roll based on half the extra damage that would be dealt (Rounded down).

    If you beat 12+Opponent's bonus on a Con save, you unhorse them!


    For a more complex version, each rider makes two rolls. Instead of rolling against a flat 12+Con save bonus, just have each rider roll a con save with a +2 bonus (because of the Shield). If they beat their opponent's attack roll, they stay on their horse.
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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    For a more complex version, each rider makes two rolls. Instead of rolling against a flat 12+Con save bonus, just have each rider roll a con save with a +2 bonus (because of the Shield). If they beat their opponent's attack roll, they stay on their horse.
    I'd go with a strength save instead of a con save.
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I'd go with a strength save instead of a con save.
    Hrmm, probably? Strength is usually the go-to save for being resisting being moved around.
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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Jousting is a sport, or martial game/hastilude, which is not only about unhorsing your opponent, but also about breaking the lance on the opponent's armor.

    I would say that the best way to represent this would be opposing Strength (Athletics) checks, or Strength (Athletics) checks vs the opponent's AC, maybe with a Dex or Con save to see if the knight fall off their mounts if they are hit.

    Note that one joust between two knights is often several confrontations, with the one who breaks the more lances winning.

    Also worth noting is that jousting armor, is pretty impractical dismounted and far heavier than actual armor meant for battles, but protects pretty well from what is essentially getting rammed by a big stick at high speed.

    But something that should not be forgotten is how the horse influence the bout. If you want to be a tad more complex about it, you could say the stronger horse gives an advantage to the rider, or decide they attack first.

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    I feel like using an opposing strength check here isn't the most effective. Your raw strength doesn't have all that much to do with how well you do in a joust. It's a combination of your skill in riding a horse, your ability to aim the lance in the correct place, and your ability to defend yourself with a shield.

    I would say that each PC gets
    1) animal handling check to determine how well they ride the horse.
    2) An attack against the opponent when making the pass. If they fail the animal handling check, then they get disadvantage on that attack.

    In my mind, an attack in D&D is the ability to place the ouchy part of the weapon at a particular point on the enemy (the point of a rapier into the weak joint of armor, a warhammer avoiding a shield to make contact against the collar bone). There is very little difference between hitting a specific point on armor to hurt them and hitting a specific point on the armor to break your lance.

    Make each person do 3 passes, if they hit their attack they break a lance and get a point. If they crit against the opponent, then they unhorse their opponent and get an auto-win. In the case of a tie go on until one of them scores a hit while the other misses.
    Last edited by nickl_2000; 2017-09-01 at 01:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    I feel like using an opposing strength check here isn't the most effective. Your raw strength doesn't have all that much to do with how well you do in a joust. It's a combination of your skill in riding a horse, your ability to aim the lance in the correct place, and your ability to defend yourself with a shield.

    I would say that each PC gets
    1) animal handling check to determine how well they ride the horse.
    2) An attack against the opponent when making the pass. If they fail the animal handling check, then they get disadvantage on that attack.

    In my mind, an attack in D&D is the ability to place the ouchy part of the weapon at a particular point on the enemy (the point of a rapier into the weak joint of armor, a warhammer avoiding a shield to make contact against the collar bone). There is very little difference between hitting a specific point on armor to hurt them and hitting a specific point on the armor to break your lance.

    Make each person do 3 passes, if they hit their attack they break a lance and get a point. If they crit against the opponent, then they unhorse their opponent and get an auto-win. In the case of a tie go on until one of them scores a hit while the other misses.
    Would also be a good way to make it work, true.

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    You're not trying to avoid the enemy's lance, you're trying to remain seated in spite of getting hit.

    To me that says either Strength saving throw, or Dex (ride) check -- or preferably some combination of the two.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    You're not trying to avoid the enemy's lance, you're trying to remain seated in spite of getting hit.

    To me that says either Strength saving throw, or Dex (ride) check -- or preferably some combination of the two.
    That is true that you aren't trying to avoid the lance, but you are trying to catch the lance with your shield at an angle where it would glance up and away from your body, that implies AC to me.


    In a game I DMed, I would probably do my method mentioned above, then if there was a successful hit against you, you get a Strength/Dex (Ride) check to stay mounted or you fall and immediately lose. The more "damage" the person who hits get, the harder the DC to stay mounted. In the situation where both fall, whoever failed by more falls first and therefore loses.
    Last edited by nickl_2000; 2017-09-01 at 02:04 PM.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Here is how I would do it:

    Lances have 10 HP

    1) Animal Handling skill check to determine initiative

    2) Roll to-hit with advantage (nice big target moving exactly where you think they should be, but misses can happen)

    3) Roll damage - this gets applied to the Lance. If more than 10 damage, the Lance breaks.

    4) Opponent rolls Animal Handling (Str) check to stay on horse. DC = opponent's Lance damage roll

    5) If Opponent stays on horse, repeat steps 2-4 for them

    First to three broken lances (or unseating of opponent) wins!

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    One of the board game books I had featured a jousting game where you simultaneously revealed a location to strike which had a rock/paper/scissors pattern.
    (I can't quite remember what else there was to it), but it might add an element of responsibility. I'm not sure how you tie that in with stats.
    You might be able to get up to some tension on the approach, not sure how yet.

    Also of course the joust wasn't the sole part of a tournument. You have the melee (simplify the fighting to rely on placement), archery

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Fantastic ideas from nickl_2000 and Unoriginal. I'd like to tweak them a bit.

    TL;DR: one d20 roll per match and two d20 rolls per round until a victor is declared. Unconventional but appropriate modifiers applied.

    At the start of each match of the tournament, have each participant make an animal handling check. The outcome of the die results could be a +3/-3 range of modifiers to the contest rolls. (+3 for a nat 20, +2 if succeed by 5 or more, +1 for a success, -1 for failing, -2 for failing by 5 or more, -3 for a nat 1.)

    Each round is a DEX check modified by Athletics proficiency and the modifier from the animal handling check outcome. The DC is set by the DM, and will vary based upon the opponent (To provide increasing levels of difficulty as the competition progresses or to account for certain combatants being better or cheating). If the jouster is not proficient in lances or Heavy Armor, these rolls are made with disadvantage. The mounted combatant feat will apply advantage. A successful check results in a hit and 1 point. A failure means a miss.

    If the DEX check succeeds by 5 or more, the jouster breaks the lance, resulting in two points.

    If one jouster succeeds on their roll by 10 or more, the opponent must make a STR save with the DC of the jouster's roll (unmodified) or be knocked off the horse. If the jouster's roll is a nat 20, the STR save is made at disadvantage.

    Dismounting an opponent is an automatic victory condition. Otherwise, first to 10 points wins.

    Cheating contestants can have an effect as modifiers to the DEX roll or change the DC as decided by the DM.
    Last edited by Ventruenox; 2017-09-02 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Further detail

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    That is true that you aren't trying to avoid the lance, but you are trying to catch the lance with your shield at an angle where it would glance up and away from your body, that implies AC to me.
    You're also trying to hit them first and weaken their hit with that impact. In practice, this seems like somewhere initiative could be brought in.
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Chainmail had jousting rules. I would look at those first.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Readied Shove, and keep the initiative roll to see who goes first?

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    I'm running a King Arthur setting right now. The Joust was literally the "meet-up" for all of the characters after Session-0.

    How I run my jousts:
    Quite simply, really. You either attack with a Lance, or you Shove. If you have multi attack, you can do both. If you have Tripping Strike as a BatMaster, you can do even better!
    The notion is that if you want to land an accurate, "ring their bell" hit, you're aiming for their targe, their shoulder, etc. It takes a little more aim and real strategy. If you just want to pound them out of the saddle, roll the shove. "Missing" the shove can be described as either missing with the lance altogether, or the lance bouncing off for superficial damage, what-have-you. Hitting means that the enemy is going over the saddle, and they're gonna take fall damage.

    For running the joust itself, I use the Combat Roll from the 'Tournaments and Taverns' pdf. You can find it, legally or otherwise, all over the place. It's D20SRD. At any rate, use an attack roll in the early rounds, follow up with an actual combat in the last round.
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Basic mechanics:

    1. Roll initiative, add riding proficiency for both sides if applicable. This determines the order in which the attacks take place.
    2. Both jousters approach at roughly the same time and make attack rolls in the order which their initiative dictates. At equal initiative, both jousters may attack even if they would be unhorsed by each others' attacks.
    3. A jouster who is successfully hit must make a strength saving throw in addition to taking normal damage. The DC is equal to the attack's damage. If he fails, then he is unhorsed. If he is reduced to 0 hit points by damage, he is also unhorsed. Jousters are always assumed to be making non-lethal attacks unless otherwise specified.
    3a. When unhorsed, a rider may make a DC 10 dexterity saving throw (even if the attack knocks him into unconsciousness), adding riding proficiency if he is not proficient in dex saves. Should he fail, the rider will fall in an especially painful and humiliating manner, taking an extra 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage and causing spectators to wince or laugh. This damage will inflict a failed death saving throw if the rider was unhorsed by being reduced to 0hp. A character with mounted combat or athlete makes this saving throw at advantage.
    4. If the second jouster has been unhorsed, he has lost the round. If he has endured successfully, he may retaliate. If he had the same initiative result as his opponent, he may still attack even as he is being unhorsed.

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Each rider makes an attack or shove attempt, highest one is resolved first.
    If successful the defender must make a handle animal check or strength save to stay on their horse.
    Roll for it
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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Rewritten from the rules I wrote for gunfighter dueling in another system - which themselves were borrowed from rules for samurai dueling in yet another system. YMMV.

    ITEMS: Jousting Lance - this lance shatters if it deals 20 or more damage in one hit (before reduction or resistance) and the attack roll was odd.


    The Look
    Both duelists roll Insight (DC10). Learn one of the following plus one per 5 points you exceed the DC: target's Initiative Modifier, target's Attack Modifier, target's current HP and hit dice, the targets Damage Resistance and Damage Reduction if any, or whether the target has special abilities that reduce or avoid damage.

    The Standoff
    Roll Opposed Wisdom Saves to keep yourself completely steady and centered for the charge. Winner gets a +2 to the next test.

    The Charge
    Roll Animal Handling (DC10). If you succeed, add the amount by which you beat the DC to your Initiative Modifier. This roll has disadvantage unless you are riding a Warhorse.

    Final approach
    Roll Initiative to determine who hits first. You can willfully reduce your initiative bonus before rolling to gain a bonus on your next d20 roll at a rate of 1:1. Both duelists should record their reduction (if any) before rolling, and reveal after the roll.

    Crash!
    Each duelist attacks as a Reaction, in the order of their initiative. If you Shove instead of attacking, resolve it as normal. If you attack, increase your damage by [the number of hit dice of the target] for every 2 points by which you exceed his AC. Note that this attack is a Reaction; as such if the second duelist uses a Reaction ability to reduce or negate the damage he loses his ability to make this attack. If the attack does more than half the target's max HP in one hit, resolve a free Shove against your target. The second attack is attempted (if still possible) after the first attack is completely resolved. If either rider is unhorsed by a Shove attack, he takes falling damage equal to the number of his hit dice.

    Fight (optional)
    If both duelists remain above 0HP and at least one of them decides to keep fighting, begin a normal combat encounter in Initiative Order. In some parts of the world, this may be considered extremely bad form.

    In some regions, if both duelists remain on their horses and/or above 0HP, they may be issued new lances and sent back to their corners to joust again, with scoring allocated according to the rules of that particular contest.
    Last edited by Gurifu; 2017-09-02 at 03:10 AM.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    It might be worth looking at Chainmail's jousting system; you can a pdf copy of the Third Edition Chainmail rule set at drivetrhurpg.

    A discussion here has some ideas, to include using the Chainmail system. It is diceless, and reasonably quick in resolution. If there is unhorsed combat after the various passes with lanes, just use regular melee rules.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-09-02 at 12:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Do you want jousting to be its own skill? If not, use opposed Athletics:
    • Beat opponent's roll by 2 or more: score a point
    • Beat opponent's roll by 5 or more: score two points
    • Beat opponent's roll by 10 or more: unhorse them and win
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Afternoon All

    After a game my group played in which we had a huge jousting tournament, I wrote the rules up that we used and added them to the DMs Guild.

    I can't post links - but search DMs Guild for "Jousting" and it'll appear at the top.

    It's on as "pay-what-you-want" so feel free to download and use. Let me know if you find them useful.

    And for those who want to know what happened in the tournament.... I played an obnoxious half-orc who delighted in winding up the crowd and his noble opponents. In the final both my PC and my opponent (also a PC) both fell off our horses on zero HP. The DM was about to call the whole tournament a draw when I remembered to use my Half-Orc "Relentless Endurance" and get back up off the ground with 1 hp and get back onto my horse. It was like the end of Rocky II.

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Some good ideas there. If/when you want more detail find a copy of the old chainmail by TSR or the ex-Two Hour Wargames set (maybe Rebel Minis has it now?) dealing with jousts (Away From Rules so I cannot remember the name of the rules,) which go fairly fast.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    There was a great table for jousting where you picked an offensive and defensive stance - and the results were given. No dice.

    Can't remember if it was in old Chivalry and Sorcery or Chainmail. Chainmail iirc was a seed book that came before dnd and was written by one or some of the dnd guys. My friends used to have it. C&S was a game that copy-catted DnD, and some of my friends liked it better.

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    Default Re: Jousting Mechanics Ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogTheClub View Post
    And for those who want to know what happened in the tournament.... I played an obnoxious half-orc who delighted in winding up the crowd and his noble opponents. In the final both my PC and my opponent (also a PC) both fell off our horses on zero HP. The DM was about to call the whole tournament a draw when I remembered to use my Half-Orc "Relentless Endurance" and get back up off the ground with 1 hp and get back onto my horse. It was like the end of Rocky II.
    Applause.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chugger View Post
    There was a great table for jousting where you picked an offensive and defensive stance - and the results were given.
    Chainmail had that, I'd need to find my old C&S rulebook and see what their jousting was. Memory is not serving.
    C&S was fun, though a bit more crunchy than D&D ... it seems to me that some of the ideas in C&C (Schools of magic in particular) over time migrated into D&D. I wish we could have played it more but there was only so much free time and other games eventually won out.
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