The Great Game

[sirpercival]

Looking to create a campaign setting for a PbP game I'm fleshing out. First things first: this is almost certainly not going to be a D&D game. At the moment, I'm thinking Fate Core, but I'm really not 100% certain. So, I'm looking for fleshing out the setting only - no mechanics. Which is why it's in this subforum :)

Now, with that out of the way, here's the basic campaign info.

• Premise: The emperor's health is failing, and he is without an heir. The PCs are magical advisors to great noble houses, each attempting to position their respective family favorably with respect to the succession, without resorting to civil war.
• Setting: The huge, cosmopolitan capital city of the Empire, and surrounding lands (mostly controlled by the noble houses). Inspirations: Cairhien (wheel of time), Luthadel (mistborn), Tolnedra (belgariad/mallorean), Waterdeep, Renaissance Italy.
• Magic Level: Low. The idea is for magic to only really be available to the PCs (and their similar NPC opponents), and for the modus operandi to be subtle influence and enchantment. While mystical assassination or direct arcane conflict may (or may not, haven't decided) be possible, if you resort to such means, you've already lost the game.

Here's what I'll need:

• General writeups about the empire at large
• Specific info about the capitol city, including a map (I suppose), and descriptions of the various neighborhoods and local color
• Descriptions of the Imperial Family and the other Noble Houses. I've been toying with the idea of letting the players design their own pet families, but at the moment I'm inclined to instead let the players pick from the list of existing houses.

OK, so... thoughts so far? Ideas, suggestions, assistance?

[Zorku]

When you say that they've already lost if they resort to assassination, do you mean that it's just not a thing culturally, or that more like it's too late in the thrones game game-thrones-games process to do it without so much scrutiny that the person next in line probably can't peacefully assume power (even if it's discovered that the person after them was trying to frame them)?

So if the players each come from noble families that have a decent shot of lining up a rightful heir to the throne, does that mean there are a ton of families with nobody having a particular edge in legitimacy, or are the players representing a majority of the families and they're mostly just trying to keep their families from blowing up while they wait for something more organic to fall out of the mix?

[sirpercival]

When you say that they've already lost if they resort to assassination, do you mean that it's just not a thing culturally, or that more like it's too late in the thrones game game-thrones-games process to do it without so much scrutiny that the person next in line probably can't peacefully assume power (even if it's discovered that the person after them was trying to frame them)?

Two main reason. The first is mutually-assured destruction: as soon as assassination becomes a viable option, all of the noble houses will find themselves depopulated very quickly, which will ruin everyone's plans and machinations. As well, any family which resorts to assassination becomes a target of all the other alliances, as well as any family which decides it has nothing left to lose.

The other piece of the puzzle is that there's something of a cultural taboo against assassination among the nobility. Murdering each other in back alleys is fine for the peasants, but the aristocrats won't stoop to actually drawing blood -- it's far more satisfying to destroy someone's reputation and prospects, and drive them to take their own life in shame and despair. While it's not explicitly forbidden by the Imperial Family, anyone who actually does it becomes something of a pariah, and a family who is found guilty will have no chance of controlling the succession.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with a bit of magical enhancement that lets a minor cousin of the house put their sword through the faceplate of another family's scion and champion during an Imperial Tourney. Even if the games are supposed to be nonlethal, you can disown and execute that pawn to avoid the shame, and it's worth it to remove a knight from the board. :D

So if the players each come from noble families that have a decent shot of lining up a rightful heir to the throne, does that mean there are a ton of families with nobody having a particular edge in legitimacy, or are the players representing a majority of the families and they're mostly just trying to keep their families from blowing up while they wait for something more organic to fall out of the mix?

It's not that they "come from" noble families (well, some of them might), it's that the PCs are the chess masters, each of which has adopted a noble family as their pawns (and knights, bishops, etc). In general, they have no actual hereditary standing, so they can't ascend the throne themselves; instead, they want to put their particular puppet on the throne, and prevent the other players of the Great Game from doing the same.

Side note: this type of question is perfect, because developing answers for them helps me flesh out the world. Keep 'em coming!

[Zorku]

Two main reason. The first is mutually-assured destruction: as soon as assassination becomes a viable option, all of the noble houses will find themselves depopulated very quickly, which will ruin everyone's plans and machinations.

I thought the usual limit on that sort of thing was all the prep work that goes into stopping everyone from tracing it back to you, and the general cool down period after these grim matters where everyone hires extra guards to make sure no other assassins have any room to work with.

It's not that they "come from" noble families (well, some of them might), it's that the PCs are the chess masters, each of which has adopted a noble family as their pawns (and knights, bishops, etc). In general, they have no actual hereditary standing, so they can't ascend the throne themselves; instead, they want to put their particular puppet on the throne, and prevent the other players of the Great Game from doing the same.

So is it going to be left up to the players to fill in whatever sort of back story that grants them any say in these matters? Is the whole party supporting the same candidate or is there some other glue that binds them together?

Side note: this type of question is perfect, because developing answers for them helps me flesh out the world. Keep 'em coming!

I always hope that critical questions will serve that purpose.

[sirpercival]

I thought the usual limit on that sort of thing was all the prep work that goes into stopping everyone from tracing it back to you,

That's generally true, but the other PCs will have divination methods for discovery, and information will leak out there.

and the general cool down period after these grim matters where everyone hires extra guards to make sure no other assassins have any room to work with.

Personally I think a scorched-earth scenario is more likely than everyone hunkering down. There's a time limit on machinations (the emperor's death), so going on the defensive is liable to set your plans too far back to make them effective.

So is it going to be left up to the players to fill in whatever sort of back story that grants them any say in these matters? Is the whole party supporting the same candidate or is there some other glue that binds them together?

The players will work together and with the DM to figure out their backstories. And actually, it's going to be far more of an indirect PvP scenario. Each PC supports a different house (there will likely be alliances, betrayals, and all that whatnot), and is working against the other PCs from the shadows.

[Jonagel]

Neat idea!

My first question is: what other interest groups are going to be at play? I will gladly help suggest some answers to your original questions, but it would help to flesh out the rest of the relevant world in a couple Broad Strokes.

For example, in reference to one of the books series you mentioned, do the players have to worry about a religious minority in the mountains to the north, are there other kingdoms with foreign powers that are going to interact with them, can we expect other interest groups outside of the noble houses to directly or indirectly impact the overall game?

Just a thought to answer this question itself : there will likely be someone, somewhere, interested in forming their own nation or kingdom in light of the current events. Perhaps it is a region on the outskirts of the empire that is normally a cultural minority or was annexed by the empire in recent history.

Just food for thought!

[Zorku]

That's generally true, but the other PCs will have divination methods for discovery, and information will leak out there.

That cuts out direct deals, but throwing away pawns still seems viable there. Just don't prioritize discovering and stamping out an assassin's guild (or do prioritize that but just ineffectually enough that they're desperate for a risky contract,) and then present some weak arguments against the use of assassins to the pawn who is otherwise desperate, and the damn thing executes itself. Hiding the calculations you make for things to line up won't be too hard because you're in charge of a lot of land management anyway and who's gonna be able to say that you were measuring the distance from where you think the assassins are to the rival's house in the middle of planning out how to divvy out the farmland duties to your subordinates?

These folks stand to inherit a kingdom are educated nobles, so you're going to have at least a couple of people capable of engineering situations in their favor. You've got to decide how much of a sociopath someone really has to be to consider this, but Earth's history seems to indicate that the threshold for that is fairly low when it comes to inheritance.

Personally I think a scorched-earth scenario is more likely than everyone hunkering down. There's a time limit on machinations (the emperor's death), so going on the defensive is liable to set your plans too far back to make them effective.

Well, having the country erupt seems fairly likely, but nobles dying left and right to assassination seems kind of naive about how assassins work. There's a point where locking yourself in a stuffy panic room to sleep is preferable to ninjas using whatever fenestrated surface to hit you with blow darts. You've only got to put up with hunkering down for awhile, because of that ticking clock, and only the top few people in the running for heir are actually worth taking out, other than as some kind of wasteful revenge scheme, all of which happens to be taking place during the ticking clock.

At some point it's not so much assassinating people as drafting an army and marching over to their home with a demand for heads. The abrupt murder thing only works up to a certain threshold of paranoia, and since you put scrying on the table that takes away most of the options for bribing or coercing some guard or other worker at the place into doing it for you.

Just 1 or 2 of the folks leading the pack would realistically get assassinated on this kind of time table. S'fine if that's just not the kind of story you want to tell, since it doesn't always happen, but "it's not an option for these people" doesn't seem to hold up, the way I understand it.

The players will work together and with the DM to figure out their backstories. And actually, it's going to be far more of an indirect PvP scenario. Each PC supports a different house (there will likely be alliances, betrayals, and all that whatnot), and is working against the other PCs from the shadows.

So then the key element there is that every PC is trying to keep their goal secret? That makes the indirect PvP thing make a lot more sense, but if somebody screws up and their goal is revealed (or even just strongly enough suspected that the rest of the party thinks they know,) is there any reason to keep that character around? Is there a strong reason for that character to stick around? Why are they together in the first place?

What sorts of goals can the group be working on that puts these characters in good positions to covertly make kingmaker moves?
I'm strongly reminded of an internet article I read some years back that was this real knock down drag out battle for inheriting a throne, but all tightly bound by rules.

[sirpercival]

Sorry for the long delay, had a busy weekend!

Neat idea!

Glad you think so!

My first question is: what other interest groups are going to be at play? I will gladly help suggest some answers to your original questions, but it would help to flesh out the rest of the relevant world in a couple Broad Strokes.

For example, in reference to one of the books series you mentioned, do the players have to worry about a religious minority in the mountains to the north, are there other kingdoms with foreign powers that are going to interact with them, can we expect other interest groups outside of the noble houses to directly or indirectly impact the overall game?

Just a thought to answer this question itself : there will likely be someone, somewhere, interested in forming their own nation or kingdom in light of the current events. Perhaps it is a region on the outskirts of the empire that is normally a cultural minority or was annexed by the empire in recent history.

Just food for thought!

My intention was for some significant noble houses (in game/plot terms, not limited by size or wealth) which aren't associated by PCs to have their own advisors, possibly furnished by nearby rival powers who wish to influence the succession. In fact, it's definitely possible that one or more PCs will also fall into this category. Who knows what anyone's agenda is? Though I doubt that I'll borrow from the Ulgos in particular. I actually haven't thought a whole lot about the religion, though it's probably going to be very important.

That cuts out direct deals, but throwing away pawns still seems viable there. Just don't prioritize discovering and stamping out an assassin's guild (or do prioritize that but just ineffectually enough that they're desperate for a risky contract,) and then present some weak arguments against the use of assassins to the pawn who is otherwise desperate, and the damn thing executes itself. Hiding the calculations you make for things to line up won't be too hard because you're in charge of a lot of land management anyway and who's gonna be able to say that you were measuring the distance from where you think the assassins are to the rival's house in the middle of planning out how to divvy out the farmland duties to your subordinates?

These folks stand to inherit a kingdom are educated nobles, so you're going to have at least a couple of people capable of engineering situations in their favor. You've got to decide how much of a sociopath someone really has to be to consider this, but Earth's history seems to indicate that the threshold for that is fairly low when it comes to inheritance.

This is a fair point. I honestly don't have a real problem with assassination as a rule; my real goal is to prevent (for example) the PCs teaming up and exterminating any NPC-run houses to clear the field, or for it to get to the point of depopulating the aristocracy.

Well, having the country erupt seems fairly likely, but nobles dying left and right to assassination seems kind of naive about how assassins work. There's a point where locking yourself in a stuffy panic room to sleep is preferable to ninjas using whatever fenestrated surface to hit you with blow darts. You've only got to put up with hunkering down for awhile, because of that ticking clock, and only the top few people in the running for heir are actually worth taking out, other than as some kind of wasteful revenge scheme, all of which happens to be taking place during the ticking clock.

At some point it's not so much assassinating people as drafting an army and marching over to their home with a demand for heads. The abrupt murder thing only works up to a certain threshold of paranoia, and since you put scrying on the table that takes away most of the options for bribing or coercing some guard or other worker at the place into doing it for you.

Just 1 or 2 of the folks leading the pack would realistically get assassinated on this kind of time table. S'fine if that's just not the kind of story you want to tell, since it doesn't always happen, but "it's not an option for these people" doesn't seem to hold up, the way I understand it.

I wonder if there's a good middle ground here, rather than just a blanket assassination ban. I suppose the looming possibility of having a pawn you've invested a lot of time and power into die suddenly before carrying out their tasks is an incentive to spread one's influence around... Any suggestions on how to handle this gracefully?

So then the key element there is that every PC is trying to keep their goal secret? That makes the indirect PvP thing make a lot more sense, but if somebody screws up and their goal is revealed (or even just strongly enough suspected that the rest of the party thinks they know,) is there any reason to keep that character around? Is there a strong reason for that character to stick around? Why are they together in the first place?

What sorts of goals can the group be working on that puts these characters in good positions to covertly make kingmaker moves?
I'm strongly reminded of an internet article I read some years back that was this real knock down drag out battle for inheriting a throne, but all tightly bound by rules.

Well, every PC has the same goal on the surface: make your house win the throne when the Emperor dies, without letting the Empire fall into civil war. As for specific political agendas, yes they will likely keep those secret. Re: sticking around, that's not so much of a big deal - this is (at least initially) for a PbP game, so there's no requirement on having an actual "party" whose interactions/egos/politics I'd have to manage.

[Jonagel]

Some thoughts on the empire/emporer:

If we're not worried about a foreign invasion really, this is a big empire. Either sucsessful like Glory Days Rome or geographically cut off (or both!). It would make sense to have it take place in a time of relatively plenty -- so the empire has recently finished off its last major rival within the past generation or two. Border skirmishes still happen, expeditions and colonies may be more frequent now to keep the momentum going.

Based on all this, it makes sense to have some geographic boundaries (tundra to the north, coast line to the east and south east, canyons to the south, and desert into mountains in the west -- or something. Don't need to much detail as your PCs won't be adventuring there...?)

Also, what is the empire's key to success? How did they get to be so great over the past (400 years?). Sounds like magic is limited... maybe the original nation/tribe has more magic users or the magic users tapped into powers beyond that of cantaloupe (first real wizards or sorcerers with class levels). Alternatively, depending on technology, maybe they developed steel weapons first, or gun powder, or cannons (making castle walls obsolete), or maybe a new ship to dominate the seas? Another idea is they unified much of the continent to a foreign power!

The capitol where it all takes place is likely to be huge (like Rome again) -- palatial estates, monuments like "the colosseum", some of the biggest temples, and the biggest underworld (even in a time of plenty)!

[sirpercival]

Some thoughts on the empire/emporer:

If we're not worried about a foreign invasion really, this is a big empire. Either sucsessful like Glory Days Rome or geographically cut off (or both!). It would make sense to have it take place in a time of relatively plenty -- so the empire has recently finished off its last major rival within the past generation or two. Border skirmishes still happen, expeditions and colonies may be more frequent now to keep the momentum going.

Based on all this, it makes sense to have some geographic boundaries (tundra to the north, coast line to the east and south east, canyons to the south, and desert into mountains in the west -- or something. Don't need to much detail as your PCs won't be adventuring there...?)

Also, what is the empire's key to success? How did they get to be so great over the past (400 years?). Sounds like magic is limited... maybe the original nation/tribe has more magic users or the magic users tapped into powers beyond that of cantaloupe (first real wizards or sorcerers with class levels). Alternatively, depending on technology, maybe they developed steel weapons first, or gun powder, or cannons (making castle walls obsolete), or maybe a new ship to dominate the seas? Another idea is they unified much of the continent to a foreign power!

The capitol where it all takes place is likely to be huge (like Rome again) -- palatial estates, monuments like "the colosseum", some of the biggest temples, and the biggest underworld (even in a time of plenty)!

Alrighty, here's some stream-of-consciousness brainstorming.

The primary thing we need this empire to do is to facilitate the kinds of intrigue that we want in this game. That fact determines the answers to some of the questions:

• The empire has to be mature. Early on in an empire's lifespan, everything is too fragile and likely to fracture to support this sort of game.
• While the emperor is the final authority, we can't have an autocracy, because we want strong noble houses which can jockey for position and wield political power.
• Since an empire is nominally a group of subject nations, there will be royal families around who are basically just high-powered noble houses. I like the idea of having a very complex structure in the nobility, and a similarly complicated political structure.

Some fleshed out details below - how does this all sound?

The Empire's capitol city is massive, housing over a million souls, and sprawls amidst the foothills of a large and rich mountain range. The Imperial Palace complex is built on (and into) the largest hill for leagues in any direction, while the city estates of the important noble families sit atop smaller satellite hills; between and among them stretches a web of major roads and neighborhoods. The city is also fed by no less than three rivers coming down out of the mountains, which provide shipping from the mines to the north, and to the fertile farmlands to the south.

Politically, the Empire's government is extremely convoluted. The Emperor serves as arbiter and judge between the members of the high nobility, as well as the supreme commander of the Empire's armies, while his subject monarchs perform similar duties among their own nations. The high nobility is comprised of the most wealthy and powerful noble families across the Empire, including but not limited to the ruling families of the subject kingdoms.

Actual laws (including the levying of taxes) are written by the Imperial Senate, though their enforcement & interpretation is given over to the Emperor. Any landed noble in the Empire technically has a vote in the Senate, though by Imperial tradition the aristocracy votes in blocs according to the direction of the High Nobility for their respective demesnes. The Emperor holds the tiebreaker vote, in addition to all the traditional votes held by his family's voting bloc. There are a number of honorary positions, commonly bestowed on members of the Emperor's family (or nobility who have particularly pleased the Imperial throne), which control the ceremonies, topics, and debates of the Senate -- in this way, a shrewd Emperor can manipulate the Senate into doing what he wants.

In addition, there are a number of specialized advisory Councils who inform the Senate and the Emperor about particular matters, with varying degrees of influence. In some circumstances, a topic can only be brought before the Senate for debate by the relevant Council. The General Council in particular is usually the most influential; it handles matters military and naval, and many Emperors accept and enact their recommendations without alterations. Each Council is headed by a member of the High Nobility in a hereditary seat, and may have other titles & positions associated with it.

~~~~

I have more (about technology, trade, history, etc), but I have to pick up my kids from school, so I'll have to post later. Let me know what you think so far!

[Zorku]

This is a fair point. I honestly don't have a real problem with assassination as a rule; my real goal is to prevent (for example) the PCs teaming up and exterminating any NPC-run houses to clear the field, or for it to get to the point of depopulating the aristocracy.

A'ight. For party purposes, it should be all they can manage to simply pull off one assassination. That makes it probably not worth the trouble, though if it serves the plot the party can end up scrambling to prevent assassination plots.

I wonder if there's a good middle ground here, rather than just a blanket assassination ban. I suppose the looming possibility of having a pawn you've invested a lot of time and power into die suddenly before carrying out their tasks is an incentive to spread one's influence around... Any suggestions on how to handle this gracefully?

The ground we have already covered limits it. If all seven heirs apparent are assassinated before your pretender hits the throne, the kingdom isn't just going to accept that. It's obviously not legit. If one or two have unfortunately tourney accidents, one is seemingly driven to suicide, three are disgraced, and the other gets overwhelmed with some weird paperwork issue that simply causes them to fall behind, well, I guess the best heir got the throne. It's not like we could have accepted any of the other ones.

Usually setting up a clean assassination takes years, so those happen at some background rate when there's power to inherit, but they keep it just uncertain enough that the other nobles know to be wary of assassins, but they can't go just announcing that this was an assassination that connects back to some other noble (after all, slander was often a bigger deal if it was actually true.)

Assassination isn't a kettle that boils over, it's a problem that you can throw money at to make it slow down, and it's only worth the trouble until people are willing to spend more money to stop it. Every assassination is risky, and every assassination after the first is harder to pull off. Nobody in nobility is stupid enough to try and do the exact same thing 7 times in a row, because they all know that a trick like that stops working when overused.

That seems like a middle ground that handily limits itself.

Well, every PC has the same goal on the surface: make your house win the throne when the Emperor dies, without letting the Empire fall into civil war. As for specific political agendas, yes they will likely keep those secret. Re: sticking around, that's not so much of a big deal - this is (at least initially) for a PbP game, so there's no requirement on having an actual "party" whose interactions/egos/politics I'd have to manage.

Oh, if this is closer to a game of diplomacy where they're all busy convincing each other that it is in their best interest to have a stronger ally (right up until some betrayal,) then that's a really different animal. I'm not entirely familiar with the design constraints of something like that.

What in general are you doing for subterfuge between the players? Do they all basically hear about whatever secretive action another PC is working on, and then just don't act on that out of character knowledge, or are they like emailing you "moves" they make between the get together sessions? Or have you even decided how to handle that yet?

[Jackalias]

Idea for a noble house: a rising star amongst the nobility, members of this house are well known as patrons of the arts and sciences, going so far as to marry several prominent academics into the family. For their part the sorcerers of this family are masters of blood magic and astromancy, capable of divining (possible) futures, and forging clockwork monstrosities with which to spy on their enemies. The house's symbol is a bloodied sun.

[Jackalias]

Second idea: an old and powerful family, this house is well known for their decadence and ambitions abroad. Frequent purchasers of commissions, their name amongst the soldiery has become synonymous with looting and empire building, although their competence varies wildly. Outside of the empire's borders is where their true power lies however, trading companies, criminal cartels, slaving operations, they have a hand in every business under the sun, each of them sending their profits back home. Their magicians focus on alchemy and enchantments, which while not as powerful as some others have the advantage of being able to be used by the common man. Their symbol is a golden oar.

[Jackalias]

Third idea: renowned for their beauty, this house's claim to fame is their widespread use of political marriages to solidify and expand the empire. Members are raised from birth with the intention of capturing or retaining a single duchy, and schooled in all manner of intrigue, seduction, and governance. Their magic focuses on elaborate rituals and pacts with otherworldly forces for beauty and power, but always at a cost. Their symbol is a gilded masque.

[DMwithoutPC's]

I think we'll definitely want some religious conflicts as well, because those are always a fun cause to rally too. I'm not too sure what direction we should take that in... I want to make it more interesting then your standart polytheistic pantheon + monotheistic Light worship. Anyone has any good ideas or suggestions?

Some points for consideration
Empires are nearly always helped by a strong unifying part of religion.

The emperor is usually god chosen, if not considered godly themself.

you mentioned that the most important aristocracy are the kings of subject kingdoms. Those may have had different religions. Did our empire absorb their religions like the early roman empire did? Impose its religion?

Different views in the same church. The Catholic and protestant tensions in the netherlands were really interesting, and different groups being persecuted at different times, and sometimes a tenious balance. It was as much a political issue as it was a religious one.

(also, Hey Sirp!)

[Zorku]

It's really difficult to come up with religious concepts that don't fall into the nature worship of druids, the light worship of clerics, or the aspects of man worship of a pantheon. You can skin those all day long, but if you try to do anything that's not basically one of those 3, then it basically looks like you're laying pieces of red yarn over top of a broken pair of scissors, and it's never going to get less arbitrary than that.

The pantheon and light worship ideas blend together easily enough, so you can basically bend that towards any symbolic idea that's likely to come out of Western culture style thinking. If you're more into meditation, and don't mind posing open ended questions while you expect the right person to answer that question in the specific way you mean it, then you can probably do something similar with the pantheon and nature worship ideas, but that's probably harder to communicate to most players.

[Jackalias]

Some basic ideas for religion: the emperor is worshiped, if not as a god then at least as their representative on earth. In addition to the emperor people are allowed to follow whatever faith they please, although the clergy tried to corrupt their mythology, turning local gods into saints, kings, demons, and angels much like Christian missionaries did.

[MrZJunior]

What is the Empire's bureaucracy like? If a noble house can gain control of something like the tax collectors, or the postal system (especially the postal system) they would gain a lot of leverage. Even if they don't win they would be in a good position to make a deal with whoever is sitting on the throne.

If the Empire's agriculture relies on a large state controlled irrigation system, whoever runs that could practically run the country.

How does the law work? Could one of the families suborn the police and court system?

Is there an Imperial spy agency? How about a palace guard?

Does the capital have a city wall or other kind of defenses?

I would also think about what sort of military forces are present in the capital. Having a regiment in their pocket would be good for any house.