OOTS #1096 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

I don't think Rich really means prophecies to say something about the gods (I say after years of reading posts about how Belkar's death is only Tiamat's opinion, or even something Tiamat's going to try to cause).

For that matter, I don't get the impression he means gods to be moral entities except when they're being thoroughly evil; he may highlight Hel's cruelty or the Dark One's selfishness, but he's never shown anything highlighting any of the gods showing a virtue (unless one considers Thor's willingness to argue ridiculous loopholes with Hel as such, which I don't). But particularly where prophecies are involved, Tiamat/Odin seem more like handwave vessels for the prophecies to exist than actual players in them.

[Quebbster]

Frankly, this is why prophecy is never actually useful for the characters who get it in a story, because there's usually no way to tell exactly how and when the prophecy will happen; so all that people can ever do is look back after events and say, "So *that* was the fulfilment of that prophecy!". If Hurak had not exiled Durkon then the prophecy would have found some other way to come true and we'd probably be blaming Hurak for not avoiding that...

I want to point out that Haley said her prophecy did indeed help her overcome her speech impediment. It can also be argued Belkar's prophecy was helpful since killing the Oracle helped him overcome the Mark of Justice, though that's more of a stretch.
Durkon's and V's prophecies were pure foreshadowing that didn't help them at all. I presume the same will hold true for Elan's prophecy though that remains to be seen. Roy's question was just played for laughs (and Blackwing's too for that matter).

[Peelee]

I don't think Rich really means prophecies to say something about the gods (I say after years of reading posts about how Belkar's death is only Tiamat's opinion, or even something Tiamat's going to try to cause).

Tiamat having a vested interest in Belkar's death is certainly a new one for me. Kinda wish I'd been able to see the train of thought on that one.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Spoiler: OtOoPCs Spoiler

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I don't get why Roy calls it, "unfair". It's Durkon's proper duty as a cleric of Thor to fulfill his mission (a mission which Firuk conveniently forgets to mention in this strip), as given to him by the High Priest of Thor. The obligations came with the position and power of being a cleric.

Honestly, it's kinder of Hurak to give Durkon a meaningful mission and purpose, and a hope of returning, rather than a prophecy of horrible doom, or an unexplained banishment. Any missionary can tell you the difference between serving a mission and being banished for no reason.

By the prophecy's conditions, Durkon simply cannot be allowed to go home to say goodbye. The fewer people there are who know of the prophecy (an easy way to bring death and destruction to the Dwarves), the less risk there is of anyone trying to bring it about.

I'd compare it to discovering a functional, but not yet detonated, nuclear weapon. Secret removal, with as few people knowing as possible that there was even a risk at all, is best. Keep need-to-know information restricted to those who need to know. Any writing of it could be stolen or otherwise discovered. The fact that High Priestess Rubyrock did not know of the prophecy is a failure by both Firuk and Hurak, but mostly Firuk (because as long as Hurak is alive, Rubyrock does not actually need to know).

[hroþila]

Firuk probably failed to mention Durkon's "mission" because he knew the mission was poppycock and not actually a thing.

Anyway, as for the whole prophecy thing, I'm a lot less flexible than most: the prophecy already takes into account whatever anybody does or doesn't do to prevent it from coming true. If Hurak had been the type to just ignore prophecies and hope for the best, then there wouldn't have been a prophecy at all for Hurak to ignore.

[Ruck]

Belkar is Chaotic. Chaotics hate to see an individual's rights being eschewed "for the sake of the group".

Except for Chaotic Evils, who generally don't care in the least about the concept of rights, hate to see their own ability to act being curtailed for anything, but are perfectly happy to turn other people into their slaves. See: Xykon.

And as I think someone else said already, Belkar's reaction is probably rooted more in his feelings about Durkon and specifically the fact that Durkon sacrificed himself to save Belkar's life.

[8BitNinja]

Why do dwarves look toward the *SKY* for heaven?!

They don't, they look at the mountain hall ceiling.

[Valley]

I don't understand why they kicked him out in the first place. If death and blah-blah-blah happens if Durkon returns then just explain to him the issue and give him a permanent job at home. If he never LEAVES he can't RETURN.

But I am sure somebody has already pointed this out years ago.

[Svata]

Because while NOW it means "returns to his homeland" it could just have easily (at the time) meant "the next time he returns to his HOUSE".

[Goblin_Priest]

Hurak may have reasoned that if "Home is where the heart is", Durkon just meeting his family and friends may have triggered the prophecy.

I blame

The Norns,

Huginn and Muninn,

Odin

and,

Hurak

In that order.

I find that to be an incredible stretch. If he'd apply that logic, it'd be countered by the fact that Durkon could make himself a new home to return to.

[Jasdoif]

I want to point out that Haley said her prophecy did indeed help her overcome her speech impediment.

Hm. Doesn't ring any bells....When did that happen?

[Kish]

Because while NOW it means "returns to his homeland" it could just have easily (at the time) meant "the next time he returns to his HOUSE".

Yes, they would have needed to have Durkon spend the rest of his life in the temple, of course.

Still not seeing what the problem with that would have been, as long as Durkon knew why that was necessary and why he must never leave it again (for the dwarves; for Rich, of course, it would have meant no story).

Hm. Doesn't ring any bells....When did that happen?

Here.

[Jasdoif]

Here.

That looks like a lot like Haley saying the prophecy turned out to be correct, rather than saying the prophecy had anything to do with helping her overcome her speech impediment, though.

[Coolio Wolfus]

Minor snafu with your reasoning: the cave is near a dwarven village near Firmament. Which is not near Dorukan's dungeon.

The cave is completely unrelated to the actual location, it's a subtext that hints at the truth.

A few problems with this theory...

Spoiler

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1. Kraagor died when they were sealing the Gate at the North Pole, beyond the Dwarven lands. Dorukan's Gate was in the Redmountain Hills, and while we do not know where that is it is at least safe to assume it was south of the Dwarven lands.

2. The Order of the Scribble's adventures happened around 65 years ago, and Durkon is only 55 years old. I don't know how long dwarves' gestation periods are, but I doubt they are pregnant for a full decade.

3. It might work out better if you don't try to shoehorn Kraagor and the Snarl into it though. Durkon's parents may have been around when Dorukan was constructing his dungeon, and they may have accidentally released a half-dragon troll during the construction. Still, it's a stretch.

1. Point conceded.
2. #276 Last panel - 'In time, they developed a design for a mystic gate...'
3. Even omitting Kraagor, it could still have been Snarl seeing that the rifts were not 'Locked' until the gates were built.

[Keltest]

That looks like a lot like Haley saying the prophecy turned out to be correct, rather than saying the prophecy had anything to do with helping her overcome her speech impediment, though.

Indeed. In the actual scene where she decided to go along with "Elan", the prophecy wasn't even brought up in her internal decision making process. In Haley's case, the prophecy was sufficiently vague as to be useless even if it was technically correct.

[M.A.D]

I want to point out that Haley said her prophecy did indeed help her overcome her speech impediment. It can also be argued Belkar's prophecy was helpful since killing the Oracle helped him overcome the Mark of Justice, though that's more of a stretch.
Durkon's and V's prophecies were pure foreshadowing that didn't help them at all. I presume the same will hold true for Elan's prophecy though that remains to be seen. Roy's question was just played for laughs (and Blackwing's too for that matter).

IMO, those are less prophecy and more like divination. As in asking for advice and receive counselling from the divine.. Haley specifically asked for it, so that's what she gets when following instruction. Belkar never asked for his MoJ removed, so it's just a bonus. These two cases are unrelated to another and neither of them are similar to Hurak's prophecy. In Hurak's case, a prediction of a predetermined event from God came to him, and it's up to his own decision to deal with it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

So, question, both in general and in terms of this comic... if presented with a prophecy, vaguely-worded, prone to double meanings and without any instructions on how to see it to completion or avert it, why do anything with it at all? More often than not, attempting to avert a prophecy results in its coming to fruition (such as the case with poor Durkon here), so wouldn't the best course of action be to basically just say "eh" and batten down the hatches should the worst happen?

Inaction is an action. Doing nothing is still choosing something. If the future is what it is, that choice would lead to it as surely as any other. The difference is that, when calamity comes, you will know that you did nothing to solve it.
Also, acting on limited information is better than not acting at all (or acting on no information).

I am not suprised to see another self-fullfilling prophecy. You would think people would stop trying to do things that actually CAUSE the damn prophecies to happen.

The problem is, if Fate's in a fickle enough mood, just about any course of action can set the prophecy in motion. Oedipus Rex is the classic example, and for good reason. "My son is going to kill me and screw my wife? Let's just kill him, corpses can't do that."

Instead of talking about the issue and trying to come up with a solution...''Yea, exiling him will solve things...and probably won't cause any trouble in the future where he might come back as a vampire controlling his body ! ''

Somehow, if that possibility did come up, I doubt anyone would take it too seriously. With the information they had at the time, where was no reason to think Durkon would become a vampire, nor that said vampire would want to attack the dwarven lands. It would probably be likelier that he angered some monster on the way south and accidentally lead it home while trying to fight it.

The real question, I think, is why Odin chose to reveal this to his prophet in the first place, as its effect could only ever be to create a weapon aimed at the entire dwarven race. I wonder if Hel didn't somehow convince Loki to disguise himself as Odin and reveal it for a laugh.

Whatever he tells you, the god ain't perfect. It's possible that he didn't look carefully enough at the future before warning his people. It's possible that he couldn't look carefully enough to see how the calamity came. Or, perhaps, the revelation slipped from divine energy to mortal followers quicker than he could think "Is this a good idea?" It's even possible that he's required to impart visions of the future to anyone who casts the spell, lest he break a covenant with his church and lose everything (including his standing among his family, which would really suck come Thanksgiving dinner).

Really, the stupid thing is so open ended that there isn't a course of action that can actually prevent it.

It's one of the cleverest kinds of prophecy out there. Though the first prize still goes to the kind of prophecy which is guaranteed to be true in one interpretation or another no matter what happens.

The exile part bites less than not even telling him why, IMHO. Because seriously, Roy's right. Heck, he might have even killed himself on the spot.

Don't be silly; he would have picked a fight with an ornery tree to die with honor.
And then when they brought his body home, the tree spores that got stuck in his wounds would blossom into something that caused death and destruction. Maybe orcwort.

I don't know how long dwarves' gestation periods are, but I doubt they are pregnant for a full decade.

No matter what the math says.

[Snails]

In Hurak's case, a prediction of a predetermined event from God came to him, and it's up to his own decision to deal with it.

And that is the right way to look at the dilemma, IMO. His first duty to help his flock meet their fates with honor, not try and cheat a destiny that it is unclear even Odin can understand. Durkon passed his test in spite of carrying the added burden of Hurak's failure.

[Snails]

Inaction is an action. Doing nothing is still choosing something. If the future is what it is, that choice would lead to it as surely as any other. The difference is that, when calamity comes, you will know that you did nothing to solve it.
Also, acting on limited information is better than not acting at all (or acting on no information).

That is clear as mud reasoning. It matters whether and how much you believe the prophecy. If the foretold fate is unavoidable, then acting erratically in the vague hope that doing the wrong thing will save you somehow is not meaningfully more an action than inaction is. If the foretold fate is avoidable, then you must have a theory why a course of action really really makes sense when there is so much that is impossible to fathom.

In this case, Hurak trusted Durkon's honor (to stay away out of blind obedience) while not trusting Durkon's honor (that staying away to save the Dwarven nation was a worthy cause to suffer for). That is not defensible moral reasoning. It is the grasping of a panicked man.

That is one of the implied points Roy is making.

[F.Harr]

O.K., this feels like the setup for a greater revelation.

[Necris Omega]

I still think the wiser choice would have been to essentially sentence/assign Durkon to "you can never leave our homeland because Odin says we'll all die if you do." And I stick with the homeland interpretation.

Unless Durkon buys some tainted beer and cheese, takes it home, eats it, and farts the clanhold to death, I don't see how him returning back to his house would result in him bringing death and destruction. If he's to bring death and destruction, he has to go fetch it first, and baring the fantastically ridiculous, that's going to take more than a trip to the local tavern.

Make him stay put and invest the necessary means of researching the prophecy properly to deal with it beyond blindly shoving the Dwarf out the door and hoping he doesn't take it personally. And it isn't like the High Priest knew Durkon well enough to make that call, otherwise he would have known that the safer bet would have been to use Durkon's sense of duty and loyalty to ensure he stayed exiled.

Forget vampirism - what was done to everyone's favorite Dwarven Cleric is the sort of thing that kicks off a lot of Blackguard origin stories. Durkon's exile and how it was handled wasn't just tempting fate, but sitting in fate's lap in a skimpy dress making bedroom eyes at it.

[Lordchoculla]

Will the gods get more involved? I for one and itching to see some hard Thor action!

I must admit that I have not yet read all the posts here for #1096. However, a few thoughts.

First of all, why are people angry with Hurak? While he may be the one who exiled Durkon, he was not the reciepient of the prophecy. The 'priest of Odin' was. So the anger should be directed to this ... so far... unknown priest.

Secondly, as for "will the gods get more involved"... what if they already are involved? What if the so far unknown 'prist of Odin' was in fact Odin himself initiating a series of events that are meant to save the world? Despite the pain it has caused Durkon it may have been necessary in order to save the world. A bittersweet thought if true.

So I ask of you all: Could the priest of Odin be in fact Odin himself? While not directly working against Hel or anybody else and thus not directly breaking any oaths or other limitations to the involvement of the gods, it still may be a way to do things. Zeus usually did that in Greek mythology, if I remember correctly. You may call it 'interference by proxy', perhaps. This, incidentally, would make Durkon the most vital player in this game!

[B. Dandelion]

Well, I'm glad at least some people aren't inclined to jump on board "Team Hurak Did Nothing Wrong". For a while it seemed the entire thread there was going to be nothing but defenses of him. I think the fact that he was (understandably) afraid of the prophecy is certainly a mitigating factor in evaluating his behavior, but at the very least it was needlessly cruel to keep Durkon out of the loop. He knew he wasn't doing right by him or by his family, or he wouldn't have had to hope that Thor forgave him someday.

I also admittedly don't see the problem with just keeping Durkon confined to temple grounds, which is where he was sleeping when Hurak came to wake him in Origin. But even if you're determined to wrangle some definition of "home" out of there that makes exile look like the better option, what is the justification for literally throwing him out into the snow with hardly any money and no idea what he'd done wrong to deserve such treatment? And no reassurance that his aging mother would be cared for, just a vague "she means a lot to us" and a plea for forgiveness. Hurak wasn't really treating him like a loyal servant of Thor he had a responsibility towards, he was panicking and treating him like an immediate threat they had to get out the door ASAP. It's kind of understandable to freak out under those circumstances, but it's by no means the right thing to do, and it's certainly not behavior you want out of a leader. Just a smidgen more patience and compassion from Hurak would have gone an enormous way with Durkon, and I think it's perfectly fair to criticize Hurak for failing him. That he simultaneously failed to avert the prophecy is just the icing on top of that failure sundae.

[Ironsmith]

Well, I'm glad at least some people aren't inclined to jump on board "Team Hurak Did Nothing Wrong". For a while it seemed the entire thread there was going to be nothing but defenses of him. I think the fact that he was (understandably) afraid of the prophecy is certainly a mitigating factor in evaluating his behavior, but at the very least it was needlessly cruel to keep Durkon out of the loop. He knew he wasn't doing right by him or by his family, or he wouldn't have had to hope that Thor forgave him someday.

I also admittedly don't see the problem with just keeping Durkon confined to temple grounds, which is where he was sleeping when Hurak came to wake him in Origin. But even if you're determined to wrangle some definition of "home" out of there that makes exile look like the better option, what is the justification for literally throwing him out into the snow with hardly any money and no idea what he'd done wrong to deserve such treatment? And no reassurance that his aging mother would be cared for, just a vague "she means a lot to us" and a plea for forgiveness. Hurak wasn't really treating him like a loyal servant of Thor he had a responsibility towards, he was panicking and treating him like an immediate threat they had to get out the door ASAP. It's kind of understandable to freak out under those circumstances, but it's by no means the right thing to do, and it's certainly not behavior you want out of a leader. Just a smidgen more patience and compassion from Hurak would have gone an enormous way with Durkon, and I think it's perfectly fair to criticize Hurak for failing him. That he simultaneously failed to avert the prophecy is just the icing on top of that failure sundae.

Agreed. Hurak's response, whether predicted by the prophecy or not, was certainly not the right response. Throwing the dwarf that's the subject of a doom prophecy out of the temple without a shred of compassion in regards to him and giving him a lot of reasons to resent the dwarven people, on top of being cruel, was still a stupid thing to do.

And frankly, claiming Hurak had no agency in the prophecy doesn't do much to absolve him. The prophecy worked out the way it did because Hurak behaved the way he did, so even if one wanted to argue that the concept of predestination robbed Hurak of any choice in the matter... not really. Hurak's actions were accounted for, but they were still his actions; Odin's priest passing on the prophecy didn't immediately obligate Hurak into a rigid series of events that led to him deciding to throw Durkon out, he made that decision himself.

EDIT: Also, additional point to this whole discussion... the prophecy actually hasn't come to fruition yet. Durkon's come home, yes, and he's certainly been responsible for the death of at least one named member of the clergy (brother Sandstone) and what looks to be three other clerics (unless one of them got ripped in two or something), but that's still a far cry from "death and destruction on us all". With that in mind, who's to say the prophecy (or the one delivering it, for that matter) was legitimate at all?

[a_flemish_guy]

I still think the wiser choice would have been to essentially sentence/assign Durkon to "you can never leave our homeland because Odin says we'll all die if you do." And I stick with the homeland interpretation.

Unless Durkon buys some tainted beer and cheese, takes it home, eats it, and farts the clanhold to death, I don't see how him returning back to his house would result in him bringing death and destruction. If he's to bring death and destruction, he has to go fetch it first, and baring the fantastically ridiculous, that's going to take more than a trip to the local tavern.

Make him stay put and invest the necessary means of researching the prophecy properly to deal with it beyond blindly shoving the Dwarf out the door and hoping he doesn't take it personally. And it isn't like the High Priest knew Durkon well enough to make that call, otherwise he would have known that the safer bet would have been to use Durkon's sense of duty and loyalty to ensure he stayed exiled.

Forget vampirism - what was done to everyone's favorite Dwarven Cleric is the sort of thing that kicks off a lot of Blackguard origin stories. Durkon's exile and how it was handled wasn't just tempting fate, but sitting in fate's lap in a skimpy dress making bedroom eyes at it.

well it's a prophecy, so normal logic doesn't apply here and A durkon returning home and B death and destruction needn't necesarily be logically linked

"when this stone falls it will start to rain" could be a prophecy but that doesn't mean that the stone falling does so in a way that gives rain

it could have been so that the next time durkon returned home a giant meteor were to fall on the city, the meteor has nothing to do with durkon except for the prophecy part

I do agree with your analysis though, they're lucky that beyond being just a dwarf durkon was also raised with a massive sense of duty

[Sapphire Guard]

For someone like Durkon, the knowledge that he is a walking time bomb would likely cause more suffering to him than believing he was exiled for no reason. He'd spend all his life wondering 'is this it?' every time something vaguely threatening happened, wouldn't allow himself to settle anywhere, would be terrified instead of overjoyed when the oracle told him he would go home 'posthumously, etc.

Note that in comic that is the correct response, see the Oracle for an example. But he knows more about prophesy than any other character in the story.]

That only works if you're an oracle that knows exactly what the prophecy means with no ambiguity. Having Durkon go to Azure City and buy dogs named 'Death' and 'Destruction' to donate to the temple doesn't mean that the other kind won't happen.

[B. Dandelion]

Hurak sent Durkon away to prevent the prophecy from coming to pass, so why should Durkon believe he was a walking time bomb because Hurak explained that? Wouldn't he just Lawfully defer to the knowledge of his superior and dutifully go out believing he was making a sacrifice for the good of all?

[Kish]

I must admit that I have not yet read all the posts here for #1096. However, a few thoughts.

First of all, why are people angry with Hurak? While he may be the one who exiled Durkon, he was not the reciepient of the prophecy. The 'priest of Odin' was. So the anger should be directed to this ... so far... unknown priest.

HUH?

Er...believe it or not, you do in fact need to explain the reasoning behind "exiling Durkon is not morally culpable, receiving a prophecy is," not merely assume it will be immediately obvious to everyone.

[hroþila]

Maybe "shoot the messenger" was always meant as a recommendation and we were not in the loop?

[factotum]

Er...believe it or not, you do in fact need to explain the reasoning behind "exiling Durkon is not morally culpable, receiving a prophecy is," not merely assume it will be immediately obvious to everyone.

Well, the high priest of Odin didn't actually need to pass the prophecy along to Hurak, so I suppose he gets the blame for that...although, logically, Durkon was a priest in Hurak's temple, so Hurak is the most logical person to be given this information? I don't see much blame attaching to the HPoO here, to be honest.