LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

[Razade]

It should be pointed out that even if there's a tendency, that doesn't mean that other tendencies are bad or inherently wrong. Some are. Some aren't. It's a case by case basis. Merely pointing out the tendencies isn't problematic though. I know most here know this already but there are others who are eager to cry victim and twist other people's words.

[Algeh]

"Hey, if you go by a name that's not your legal name, tell me and I'll help you get it into the computer so we can use the right name for you."

Just a thought. Doesn't have to be complex, and also opens up the space for people who have nicknames, go by their middle name, or such.

Edit: to protect them from embarrassment, make sure that you do the announcement in public, but the actual "okay, what's your legal name, and what name do you want us to use" in private.

How much information do you need for the "not just a nickname" rules to kick in? If teenage me replying with "I'd like to use this gender neutral name" would be enough, you could try something along the lines of:

Hello class! (All that intro stuff) and while you can edit your display name to be a nickname, if you have an entirely different name you'd prefer, even if its not typical for your gender, let me know and I'll get the records to reflect your preferred name.

Honestly, I'd be more worried about some smarty pants deciding his name is Ben Dover (or whatever). But as long as they don't have to explicitly out themselves to change more than their display name, you probably won't have to explicitly mention gender issues for non-cis kids to figure it out.

Is that formatted right? Is it helpful? *goes to panic in a corner*


Edit: Ack! A ninja who's more eloquent than me!

See, the problem is, the ONLY situation in which we can change the official "name" in the main computer records (not just the display name) without a legal, documented name change is in the case of a gender mismatch where a trans student is now going by their new name (our state recognizes non-binary as a gender, so that would also count). We aren't allowed to change the name in the system of record for a nickname that isn't the legal name or a situation in which a student goes by, say, their stepdad's last name but legally still has their dad's name (this happens a lot, and is probably the most common reason students change their display name, with nicknames being the second most common reason).

I'm actually kind of worried about a (specific) cis-gender student (who I've taught for years - it's a small program so some students will have me for all of middle and high school) who REALLY hates his legal name and REALLY only goes by his nickname deciding to fake being non-binary if it'll get his nickname changed in our system if he finds out that that would work, which I doubt would occur to him as a tactic if I don't mention it during orientation. (His mom is not a fan of his nickname and is not likely to help him get it legally changed. I have no idea if he will change it at 18.) I'm not sure he'd be up for making a false claim like that even to finally win the nickname argument, but in this particular case I also wouldn't rule it out. (I always refer to him by his preferred name, but his legal name is still embedded in things like his district user id and printed on things like his report cards, which are the kinds of things we can only change for legal name changes and trans students by changing it in the system of record.)

Honestly, I would let somebody do that sort of juvanile prank if they wanted. And then I would walk it into the ground as the teacher. "Ben Dover, what did you get for number 5?" "Ben Dover, please stop chewing that gum." "Ben Dover was the highest scorer on the test last week, great job!" No snickering, no obvious jokes about it. By treating even a joke name as a serious thing, I would hope to communicate to the kids that no really, I am fine with a name change, and hopefully the prankster in question would learn to think twice about joking about something like that.

When I used to teach in person (rather than online) I did that. I once had a 6th grader take me up on it and tell me he wanted to go by Super Chicken. I called him that for a solid month. Since it's all online and one-on-one now, I still make a point of using preferred names, but students have less incentive to make up silly names and I actually don't recall any incidents of that in the 2+ years that we've had it set up for students to edit their own display names. (I don't think many of them are aware they can edit their names - I tell students who I notice are using a different name elsewhere how, and the edit button is right there on their profile page, but I think it just doesn't occur to most of them to try and change their "school name" since schools so rarely give students that much control.)

[Minnesota]

Pet peeve: I've used to introduce me as Flo for maybe the first 20 years of my life. Business life changed that, as german customs generally expect the full version of a name to be spelled out. So if your name is Joseph or Michael, shortening it to Joe and Mike won't do, so I've been accustomed to Florian to such a time now, I wouldn't consider to change that in any way, it´s the core of my identity.

[Florian]

Pet peeve: I've used to introduce me as Flo for maybe the first 20 years of my life. Business life changed that, as german customs generally expect the full version of a name to be spelled out. So if your name is Joseph or Michael, shortening it to Joe and Mike won't do, so I've been accustomed to Florian to such a time now, I wouldn't consider to change that in any way, it´s the core of my identity.

Welcome to the club.

A weird side effect: I'm always reminded how long I actually know some friends/acquaintances, because they're among the few people who regularly address me as Flo.

[137beth]

(our state recognizes non-binary as a gender, so that would also count).

I don't have an answer for you, but what state is this?

[ArgentiAertheri]

See, the problem is, the ONLY situation in which we can change the official "name" in the main computer records (not just the display name) without a legal, documented name change is in the case of a gender mismatch where a trans student is now going by their new name (our state recognizes non-binary as a gender, so that would also count). We aren't allowed to change the name in the system of record for a nickname that isn't the legal name or a situation in which a student goes by, say, their stepdad's last name but legally still has their dad's name (this happens a lot, and is probably the most common reason students change their display name, with nicknames being the second most common reason).

Well that's just dumb. And it means you might have to give a Trans 101 lesson. How culturally aware are these kids? Could you do your standard spiel about display names and add something like "and if you're changing your display name because your gender doesn't match the one you were assigned at birth, email me, even if your gender isn't 'the other gender', go ahead and email me"?

I'm actually kind of worried about a (specific) cis-gender student (who I've taught for years - it's a small program so some students will have me for all of middle and high school) who REALLY hates his legal name and REALLY only goes by his nickname deciding to fake being non-binary if it'll get his nickname changed in our system if he finds out that that would work, which I doubt would occur to him as a tactic if I don't mention it during orientation.

Respectfully… so what if he does?

Also, I'm curious, can they change it more than once? My cousin's 15(?) year old came out trans recently and I've heard 3 names in as many months, she's still finding a new name she likes. I'd imagine that's fairly common among teens, they're trying literally the whole world out and picking a name is hard.

Whatever exact wording you end up using, I think making sure they know you're a safe person to out themselves to is probably more important.

[Delta]

Welcome to the club.

A weird side effect: I'm always reminded how long I actually know some friends/acquaintances, because they're among the few people who regularly address me as Flo.

Yeah, also didn't we all have that one guy in our class everyone referred to by their last name? Made for really awkward phone conversations back in the day before everyone had a cell phone.

"Hi Mrs. Jones, is Jo-... um, is your son home?"

For me, it's my internet nick, between 2000 and 2013 or so most people who got to know me through my hobbies knows me primarily by my internet nick, everyone before and most after by my given name, makes for some confusion on conventions and stuff now.

[halfeye]

Names are such fun.

I went to a small modern school, where all the staff were called by their first names, so obviously, all the kids called each other by their surnames.

Then there's the bloke who goes by another name that's not the name he puts on forms, it really sorts out the sleazy salesmen who come up to him saying, "Hi <form-name> may I call you <short version of formname>". Not that it happens often, but it's funny when it does.

[Algeh]

I don't have an answer for you, but what state is this?

Answered in PM.

Well that's just dumb. And it means you might have to give a Trans 101 lesson. How culturally aware are these kids? Could you do your standard spiel about display names and add something like "and if you're changing your display name because your gender doesn't match the one you were assigned at birth, email me, even if your gender isn't 'the other gender', go ahead and email me"?

Well...cultural awareness varies widely. Some students are with us after being homeschooled by some fairly conservative families who have decided to take a few classes through us (we do a lot of outreach to this population, since the original intent of our program was to draw homeschool families back into the school system), and we have a LOT of parents who opt their students out of things like sex ed.

We also have plenty of trans and questioning students, though. We're the easiest "option" school to sign up for within our district if your regular neighborhood school isn't working out for some reason, so anyone who wants a fresh start for any reason gets steered toward us. (We also get a lot of students with anxiety issues and other mental health needs.)

Respectfully… so what if he does?

Well, I mostly figure I'll have to hear him complain for the rest of the year about how stupid it is that he can't change his name but this other group can, and I'd prefer not to spend my entire year being whined at for a policy I didn't make. Alternately, if he did declare himself non-binary in an attempt to get his nickname in the computer, I'd probably get a major earful from his parents, who I suspect are fairly conservative based on his previously-declared political stances.

Also, I'm curious, can they change it more than once? My cousin's 15(?) year old came out trans recently and I've heard 3 names in as many months, she's still finding a new name she likes. I'd imagine that's fairly common among teens, they're trying literally the whole world out and picking a name is hard.

Whatever exact wording you end up using, I think making sure they know you're a safe person to out themselves to is probably more important.

If they're trying out various names but not sure yet, I'd probably suggest they just change the display name so it's a process they can control themselves rather than something they need to involve adults with and might have a delay involved.

As for the how hard it is to change the names in various records thing, it makes sense to me that it's difficult to change a name in the "system of record", since that's supposed to be basically a legal document containing all of your school records, and so should be under your legal name in the same way a driver's license should, and should be changed by legal name changes as would the rest of your assorted official documents (my state makes it pretty painless to get a legal name and gender change, which definitely informs my opinion on this). The problem is when things are built around that system that don't allow for a "preferred name" override in all of the "everyday" places rather than the "historical/legal record" places. I mean, yeah, your official transcript should probably have your legal name on it in most situations (to avoid fraud situations where I can have my friend edit their name to mine long enough to get a transcript with my name but their grades - we do still change the name on the official transcript for pre-legal-name-change trans students, but that's why getting the name changed in the system of record is more involved and not generally allowed), but it really doesn't hurt for students to be able to have a computer login and roster name that's what they actually choose to be called. It's frustrating how many things get needlessly tied to legal rather than chosen/used/preferred names when computer systems get involved.

Yeah, also didn't we all have that one guy in our class everyone referred to by their last name? Made for really awkward phone conversations back in the day before everyone had a cell phone.

"Hi Mrs. Jones, is Jo-... um, is your son home?"

For me, it's my internet nick, between 2000 and 2013 or so most people who got to know me through my hobbies knows me primarily by my internet nick, everyone before and most after by my given name, makes for some confusion on conventions and stuff now.

I've finally stopped putting "Algeh" on my convention badges and gone back to putting my real name on them. This is about the only place online I still hang out, and the people I meet up with at cons mostly know me from email and/or other cons at this point.

We had too many Bens in my high school, so we called them all by their last names instead. We also had a guy who everyone called Pete despite it having nothing to do with his legal name because "he looked like a Pete". His parents HATED it when we'd call his house and ask for Pete, and we'd have the hardest time remembering what his actual name was since we all called him Pete.

I also once ran a GURPS game with three different players named Chris. We pretty much just called everyone by their character's name both in and out of character. I still remember all of their character names over a decade later.

[137beth]

Answered in PM.

Thanks for that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

First off, hello folks!

I'm sort of seeking advice on how to support my brother, who identifies as LGBTAI+, though I'm uncertain as to whether he specifically identifies as bi or gay currently. It mainly revolves around media portrayals of LGBTAI+ people and a specific exploitative trope. Because of this trope occurring in that Voltron show on Netflix, he has convinced himself that no movie or TV show is safe for LGBTAI+ individuals to watch and that the creators of all such media are motivated primarily by malice towards LGBTAI+ people. I'm okay with going into more detail, but I wanted to ask first as the trope in question could potentially be upsetting to discuss.

Thank you in advance, and I apologize if I've overstepped.

[Razade]

First off, hello folks!

I'm sort of seeking advice on how to support my brother, who identifies as LGBTAI+, though I'm uncertain as to whether he specifically identifies as bi or gay currently. It mainly revolves around media portrayals of LGBTAI+ people and a specific exploitative trope. Because of this trope occurring in that Voltron show on Netflix, he has convinced himself that no movie or TV show is safe for LGBTAI+ individuals to watch and that the creators of all such media are motivated primarily by malice towards LGBTAI+ people. I'm okay with going into more detail, but I wanted to ask first as the trope in question could potentially be upsetting to discuss.

Thank you in advance, and I apologize if I've overstepped.

You'll need to provide what trope that is considering not everyone's seen Voltron. As far as I knew, one of the characters (two?) were confirmed gay and that's about it? What are you talking about?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Right, I just didn't want to publicly post something that could be triggering.

Spoiler: The Trope in question is...

Show

...Bury Your Gays. One of those two gay characters (they were a couple) died after only being in two scenes. Because of this, my brother has convinced himself that the only reason media like this puts in LGBTAI+ characters is to kill them off because the creators deliberately want to traumatize LGBTAI+ viewers because they're bigoted. I feel that this is an irrational conclusion, and deciding to just never watch movies or TV shows again as a result is DOUBLY irrational, because it means he'll miss out on the actual GOOD representation that can be found. I understand why the trope is crap, that LGBTAI+ folks are hurt by it, and the Voltron creators using it was a REALLY bad idea, but I think most people these days are aware it's a bad idea to use this trope and more good representation is being produced, which is part of what made Voltron's unironic use of it stick out so much.

I know my brother feels hurt by this, and I don't want to diminish that, but at the same time the reaction just feels exaggerated.

[Razade]

I certainly think some shows do this but there are plenty of other shows that just....don't. We don't even have to get into series which are clearly intended to be viewed by a primarily LGBT audience to get examples either. Steven Universe is a massively popular cartoon and the gay undertones and themes aren't just present, they're primary to the setting and lore of the characters. The only character that's died is Rose and she...well we could probably argue was bi but certainly was in a heteronormative relationship when she died. Will and Grace is a maypole for LGBT inclusion, regardless of people's opinions on how well it got said inclusion, and as far as I remember...no death.

I think your brother is being...extreme in his idea that content creators are just looking for superficial inclusion before shuffling off the queer characters to the grave. It happens but it doesn't happen as much as he seems to think (which seems to be always in his case).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's really the crux of it. In all honesty, this is just the latest manifestation of a bunch of anxieties he's had for about two years now. Part of me feels like this'd be solved if he just MET some more LGBTAI+ people, so he didn't feel so alone against the world. He talks to me about it, but I fully admit as a straight dude I don't have the answers he's looking for, and that causes him to think I'm just blowing him off.

Something else to note is that both of us are on the autism spectrum to some degree, so that's definitely a factor, but I do see where he's coming from. I'm really struggling to figure out HOW to communicate these ideas to him, because he really does feel convinced that the world hates him and is out to get him, even though me, our other siblings and our parents love and support him.

[Delta]

Since he does have to seem access to Netflix, why not recommend him something that shows that most definitely not all shows work that way? Sense8 comes to mind immediately, as an example of strong LGBT representation.

[Razade]

That's really the crux of it. In all honesty, this is just the latest manifestation of a bunch of anxieties he's had for about two years now. Part of me feels like this'd be solved if he just MET some more LGBTAI+ people, so he didn't feel so alone against the world. He talks to me about it, but I fully admit as a straight dude I don't have the answers he's looking for, and that causes him to think I'm just blowing him off.

Something else to note is that both of us are on the autism spectrum to some degree, so that's definitely a factor, but I do see where he's coming from. I'm really struggling to figure out HOW to communicate these ideas to him, because he really does feel convinced that the world hates him and is out to get him, even though me, our other siblings and our parents love and support him.

Refer him to a psychologist because these are issues you're biased towards and unequipped to deal with, even if you have a degree in Psychology. They're not issues you're going to solve for him. He has to solve them himself and he needs someone to show him that way that isn't family.

[noparlpf]

Black Sails is pretty great.

[Eldest]

Voltron is not a great example of LGBT friendly stuff iirc. Brooklyn 99, Gravity Falls (background characters heavily implied to be gay), Legend of Korra, Steven Universe, Adventure Time, Supergirl, and Once Upon A Time all got suggested when I asked them (I don't watch enough TV to be able to name good shows off the bat for this).

[noparlpf]

I wouldn't suggest Supergirl or the other CW shows. Too busy to go into it at the moment but if you Google you can find critiques of how they handle queer characters.
(I'm also not happy with how the CW handles Jewish characters, and apparently since I stopped following they even did a "what if the nazis won" parallel world arc? Ew, no thanks.)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Refer him to a psychologist because these are issues you're biased towards and unequipped to deal with, even if you have a degree in Psychology. They're not issues you're going to solve for him. He has to solve them himself and he needs someone to show him that way that isn't family.

I think you're right. He interprets my inability to provide satisfactory answers as me not taking his concerns seriously, and any time my mother tries it degenerates into a shouting match. None of us are getting through to him, but therapists are trained in doing that stuff. Thank you.

[Ravens_cry]

The following is somewhat adult, so I am putting it in spoilers. It deals with my conflicted feelings involving SRS. If this is too adult for this venue, I am sure the moderators know what to do.

Spoiler

Show

As a transwoman, specifically fem transitioning genderfluid with a primary gender of female, on HRT for over two and a half years, my mind goes to SRS, and, well, part of me wants it, especially when I consider being intimate that way with my boyfriend, and I hate having to touch my current anatomy or acknowledge it in non-sexual circumstances, yet, at the same time, I enjoy self-stimulation and even having him touch it occasionally. It's infuriatingly ambiguous and confusing. I just wish I could want it or not want it with a full heart, instead of this wishy washy, do I, don't I, junk.

[Razade]

The following is somewhat adult, so I am putting it in spoilers. It deals with my conflicted feelings involving SRS. If this is too adult for this venue, I am sure the moderators know what to do.

Spoiler

Show

As a transwoman, specifically fem transitioning genderfluid with a primary gender of female, on HRT for over two and a half years, my mind goes to SRS, and, well, part of me wants it, especially when I consider being intimate that way with my boyfriend, and I hate having to touch my current anatomy or acknowledge it in non-sexual circumstances, yet, at the same time, I enjoy self-stimulation and even having him touch it occasionally. It's infuriatingly ambiguous and confusing. I just wish I could want it or not want it with a full heart, instead of this wishy washy, do I, don't I, junk.

It's a big step, an irreversible step and I'll tell you what I've told all my friends who are trans considering it. If you think it's right, start the process of going to a professional to discuss it long before your mandated "go talk to a psychologist about it" phase that's part of the lead up to the actual surgery.

[Ravens_cry]

It's a big step, an irreversible step and I'll tell you what I've told all my friends who are trans considering it. If you think it's right, start the process of going to a professional to discuss it long before your mandated "go talk to a psychologist about it" phase that's part of the lead up to the actual surgery.

That is definitely within my future plans, aye.

[Anymage]

Odd question.

I've been seeing a small but noticeable number of people claiming a trans identity, while their outwards presentation has been 100% in keeping with their birth sex.

I'm not going to raise any fuss about this; the terminology may be odd, but at heart there's no harm in people exploring genderspace. However, if I've noticed this as someone who only sees the outside of gender related discussions, I know that this has probably caused a lot of drama inside the community.

And because I'm curious. Can anyone give a cliff's notes version of what said drama looked like on the inside?

[The Extinguisher]

Odd question.

I've been seeing a small but noticeable number of people claiming a trans identity, while their outwards presentation has been 100% in keeping with their birth sex.

I'm not going to raise any fuss about this; the terminology may be odd, but at heart there's no harm in people exploring genderspace. However, if I've noticed this as someone who only sees the outside of gender related discussions, I know that this has probably caused a lot of drama inside the community.

And because I'm curious. Can anyone give a cliff's notes version of what said drama looked like on the inside?

This is absolutely a hornets nest, and frankly one that doesnt need to be kicked. what do you have to gain on dredging up drama that isn't yours? at best its a misguided attempt to start a conversation that youre not actually a part of, and it worst its trying to start trouble for troubles sake.

I believe that your intentions are probably good, but this really isnt a productive line of questioning at all, especially for a public forum

[Kesnit]

Odd question.

I've been seeing a small but noticeable number of people claiming a trans identity, while their outwards presentation has been 100% in keeping with their birth sex.

I'm not going to raise any fuss about this; the terminology may be odd, but at heart there's no harm in people exploring genderspace. However, if I've noticed this as someone who only sees the outside of gender related discussions, I know that this has probably caused a lot of drama inside the community.

And because I'm curious. Can anyone give a cliff's notes version of what said drama looked like on the inside?

I can't speak for every situation, only my own.

When I first started transition (12 years ago this month!), I was not in a position where I could transition in my professional life. I continued to dress as female, kept my birth name, shaved my face, and took steps to hide the cracking when my voice started to change. This lasted almost 3 years, until I went back to school (to change career fields) and could recreate myself.

In my personal life, I dressed as male (which was not a huge change, as most of my wardrobe were men's clothes anyway), used my male-name, and bound my (B-cup) chest.

[Goaty14]

Ok, here's the cut: I'm straight (and a guy), and I saw somebody who looked like a girl and liked how she looked, even considered asking her out on a date. Thing is, "she" is a Girl-to-Guy transgender (a reverse trap, if you will), and I'm not 100% sure how to proceed, like:

-If he knew that I'm straight but like him, how would he feel about that?
-If I start dating him but still consider myself straight, does that make me bisexual or what?

Oh, and some of my friends were in an argument that if one of my straight dating friends were transgender, and the other became transgender as well, then they'd still be straight. How correct by the terminology is that?

[EternalMelon]

Odd question.

I've been seeing a small but noticeable number of people claiming a trans identity, while their outwards presentation has been 100% in keeping with their birth sex.

I'm not going to raise any fuss about this; the terminology may be odd, but at heart there's no harm in people exploring genderspace. However, if I've noticed this as someone who only sees the outside of gender related discussions, I know that this has probably caused a lot of drama inside the community.

And because I'm curious. Can anyone give a cliff's notes version of what said drama looked like on the inside?

I can't really do better than just say that The Extinguisher said everything better than I could. You don't know the situation these people are going through and I'd need more information before pointing you to other resources, if any.

Ok, here's the cut: I'm straight (and a guy), and I saw somebody who looked like a girl and liked how she looked, even considered asking her out on a date. Thing is, "she" is a Girl-to-Guy transgender (a reverse trap, if you will), and I'm not 100% sure how to proceed, like:

-If he knew that I'm straight but like him, how would he feel about that?
-If I start dating him but still consider myself straight, does that make me bisexual or what?

Oh, and some of my friends were in an argument that if one of my straight dating friends were transgender, and the other became transgender as well, then they'd still be straight. How correct by the terminology is that?

Please don't refer to Transpeople as "Traps". Its offensive, even if your being blaised about it. Also probably don't put pronouns in air-quotes like that.

That being said:
While I can't for sure say what they would think of it generally speaking Trans people prefer it when other people affirm their gender. Someone telling them that they look so much like a girl that you are attracted to them is probably now what they want to hear. As an aside, do you know if this guy you like is gay?

As for weather or not you are straight, the only person who can decide that is you. But stepping back from all this theory and giving some practical advice; you are attracted to a person for their feminine traits to the point where you thought they were a woman. Does that sound like someone whos attracted to men for you?

[Lissou]

-If he knew that I'm straight but like him, how would he feel about that?
-If I start dating him but still consider myself straight, does that make me bisexual or what?

Same as with any other guy you read as female. Imagine a cis guy you thought was a woman. If you decide to date him, are you still straight? I think it depends on how much you delude yourself. If you like him only for his feminine aspects but will get the heck out of there as he becomes more masculine, you're probably straight (and you shouldn't date him). If, however, you like him for him and plan on being with him even if he transitions to the point that you could never read him as female even if you tried, then you're not quite straight. You may be heteroflexible, if you're mostly attracted to women and only rarely to guys, you may be bi, but you're not completely straight, although if he's your only exception, it could make sense to round yourself down as straight, in most contexts.

As for how he'd feel about it... probably not too happy that you like him for something he actually isn't, but who knows, if he likes you back and you're of the latter category mentioned above, maybe he'll be happy this pushed you together? But yeah, I imagine he wouldn't be thrilled about it.