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  1. - Top - End - #721
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    People here claim that some nonbinary identified people don't care about pronouns and names and titles. But have any of you actually met such a person?
    Yes, every day when I look in a mirror.

    I never have. And I think it very unlikely that a person who doesn't care about those things would even tell you that they don't have a gender identity, unless you explicitly ask them.
    Identification is a private matter and has nothing to do with how many people you tell.

  2. - Top - End - #722
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    As someone who is probably agender (which is a subcategory of non-binary) I:

    • Do not understand the concept of gender
    • Do not care about the concept of gender
    • Do not understand the concept of "caring about the concept of gender"
    • Do not care about the concept of "understanding the concept of gender"
    • Do not understand the concept of "understanding the concept of gender"
    • Care slightly about the concept of "caring about the concept of gender"
    • Care slightly about the concept of "understanding the concept of 'caring about the concept of gender' "
    • Barely understand the concept of "understanding the concept of 'caring about the concept of gender' "
    • Am equally fine with any pronouns, but prefer that, if people refer to me as the singular "they," those people treat the word grammatically as singular while doing so.


    None of these are universal, as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2019-04-01 at 01:17 PM.
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    Wow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

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  3. - Top - End - #723
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    Am equally fine with any pronouns, but prefer that, if people refer to me as the singular "they," those people treat the word grammatically as singular while doing so.
    Example, please? I'm not sure how it could be used "grammatically as singular". For my part, if I were to mention you to others, I'd say something like "They have been quite clear that they don't understand the concept of gender" - but that is obviously using plural verbs, (just like 'you' uses them), rather than the gendered version "He, on the other hand, does understand" - i.e. "do" (grammatical plural) vs "does" (grammatical singular).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #724
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    As someone who is probably agender (which is a subcategory of non-binary) I:

    • Do not care about the concept of gender
    Was this list meant to be one of "ands" or one of "ors"? That is, could any one of these suggest agender, or do you need to check multiple boxes?

    I mean, does this mean that a person who is effectively gender-apathetic - that is, one who doesn't care about whether something is "masculine" or "feminine" or what-have-you - could be considered agender, or non-binary?

    It makes sense. One who doesn't particularly care about gender couldn't be said to have a firm image of one's own gender, could one?

    It just seems like a shockingly broad category, then. Much larger than previously thought, if being indifferent to gender were a sufficient qualifier.

    Asking from a place of legitimate curiosity.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Was this list meant to be one of "ands" or one of "ors"? That is, could any one of these suggest agender, or do you need to check multiple boxes?

    I mean, does this mean that a person who is effectively gender-apathetic - that is, one who doesn't care about whether something is "masculine" or "feminine" or what-have-you - could be considered agender, or non-binary?

    It makes sense. One who doesn't particularly care about gender couldn't be said to have a firm image of one's own gender, could one?

    It just seems like a shockingly broad category, then. Much larger than previously thought, if being indifferent to gender were a sufficient qualifier.

    Asking from a place of legitimate curiosity.
    Ah, the difference between language and logic.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Was this list meant to be one of "ands" or one of "ors"? That is, could any one of these suggest agender, or do you need to check multiple boxes?

    I mean, does this mean that a person who is effectively gender-apathetic - that is, one who doesn't care about whether something is "masculine" or "feminine" or what-have-you - could be considered agender, or non-binary?

    It makes sense. One who doesn't particularly care about gender couldn't be said to have a firm image of one's own gender, could one?

    It just seems like a shockingly broad category, then. Much larger than previously thought, if being indifferent to gender were a sufficient qualifier.

    Asking from a place of legitimate curiosity.
    You don't "need" to check any boxes; I just happen to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Example, please? I'm not sure how it could be used "grammatically as singular". For my part, if I were to mention you to others, I'd say something like "They have been quite clear that they don't understand the concept of gender" - but that is obviously using plural verbs, (just like 'you' uses them), rather than the gendered version "He, on the other hand, does understand" - i.e. "do" (grammatical plural) vs "does" (grammatical singular).

    Grey Wolf
    Use singular verbs for me, no matter what pronouns you refer to me by. A personal pronoun is a substitute for saying someone's name, and thus (if I am the "someone" whose name is being replaced) the rest of the sentence should pretend my name was actually said, even though it wasn't.

    "Enderlord is not a plastic duck" can be "They is not a plastic duck" or "He is not a plastic duck" or "She is not a plastic duck" or "It is not a plastic duck" but ideally not "They are not a plastic duck."

    I won't make a big deal out of it; it's not particularly important to me. I just prefer grammar that makes logical sense over grammar that makes intuitive sense, especially since English rarely does either.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2019-04-01 at 04:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
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  7. - Top - End - #727
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Asexuality has nothing to do with what gender you identify as. I'll let somebody else explain that before I try, potentially get it wrong, and put my foot in my mouth.
    Not sure anyone has responded to this yet (I might have missed it). But asexuality is a spectrum that involves multiple sexual orientations. What they have in common is a lack of sexual attraction, either whatsoever or unless specific conditions have been met (for instance demisexuality, where sexual attraction only develop within established friendships but not with strangers).

    In English, the word is also used for species that reproduce without having sex, which is confusing. In those cases, there usually isn't any genders involved, but this doesn't apply to humans.

  8. - Top - End - #728
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    You don't "need" to check any boxes; I just happen to.



    Use singular verbs for me, no matter what pronouns you refer to me by. A personal pronoun is a substitute for saying someone's name, and thus (if I am the "someone" whose name is being replaced) the rest of the sentence should pretend my name was actually said, even though it wasn't.

    "Enderlord is not a plastic duck" can be "They is not a plastic duck" or "He is not a plastic duck" or "She is not a plastic duck" or "It is not a plastic duck" but ideally not "They are not a plastic duck."

    I won't make a big deal out of it; it's not particularly important to me. I just prefer grammar that makes logical sense over grammar that makes intuitive sense, especially since English rarely does either.
    Does this apply to second person as well, then? "You is not a plastic duck"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  9. - Top - End - #729
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Does this apply to second person as well, then? "You is not a plastic duck"?

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    I have no preference on that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    I wish it was possible to upvote here.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Does this apply to second person as well, then? "You is not a plastic duck"?

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Was this list meant to be one of "ands" or one of "ors"? That is, could any one of these suggest agender, or do you need to check multiple boxes?

    I mean, does this mean that a person who is effectively gender-apathetic - that is, one who doesn't care about whether something is "masculine" or "feminine" or what-have-you - could be considered agender, or non-binary?

    It makes sense. One who doesn't particularly care about gender couldn't be said to have a firm image of one's own gender, could one?

    It just seems like a shockingly broad category, then. Much larger than previously thought, if being indifferent to gender were a sufficient qualifier.

    Asking from a place of legitimate curiosity.
    Chiming in on this, I'd not be surprised if a significant percentage of people who currently identify as cis would probably be some variety of not-cis if they went and challenged the assumption that they are [dude/chick], and I think that even for those who do still identify as [chick/dude] it'd be helpful to figure out what aspects of that gender they enjoy and which they just think are mandatory.
    LGBTA+itP

  12. - Top - End - #732
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Chiming in on this, I'd not be surprised if a significant percentage of people who currently identify as cis would probably be some variety of not-cis if they went and challenged the assumption that they are [dude/chick], and I think that even for those who do still identify as [chick/dude] it'd be helpful to figure out what aspects of that gender they enjoy and which they just think are mandatory.
    I think they already do that. Like...why wouldn't they? Everyone has to deal with gender on their own terms and it's a private thing. Why would you assume they don't? I am "Cis" (a label I don't really care for but w/e) and I've never given a tosh about what's expected of my gender. None of my friends did either. That's anecdotal of course but you're the one proposing that us Cis people should "challenge" themselves.

    "Cis" people do. They just don't share it with you because it's private.

  13. - Top - End - #733
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Chiming in on this, I'd not be surprised if a significant percentage of people who currently identify as cis would probably be some variety of not-cis if they went and challenged the assumption that they are [dude/chick], and I think that even for those who do still identify as [chick/dude] it'd be helpful to figure out what aspects of that gender they enjoy and which they just think are mandatory.
    There was an interesting book a while back called Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey Into Manhood and Back Again. (review). The author was a cis female journalist who decided to pass as male for a year to see what the differences between male and female life were like.

    Lots of interesting stuff, but the most relevant to this conversation is that she actually had to abandon the experiment early -- she started feeling like she was having a breakdown and experiencing huge physiological pressure to return to living as a woman. Reading between the lines, it sure sounded like she was experiencing gender dysphoria.

    So that's at least one data point suggesting that if some cis people were assigned the opposite gender at birth, they would want to transition. Obviously, she wasn't assigned male at birth, but assigned herself male as an adult, so it's not a perfect experiment. But it does show that at least some cis people really do have a strong gender identity which they can't let go of even if they want to -- they're just lucky enough that their identity and the way the world sees them match up.

  14. - Top - End - #734
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    Lots of interesting stuff, but the most relevant to this conversation is that she actually had to abandon the experiment early -- she started feeling like she was having a breakdown and experiencing huge physiological pressure to return to living as a woman. Reading between the lines, it sure sounded like she was experiencing gender dysphoria.

    So that's at least one data point suggesting that if some cis people were assigned the opposite gender at birth, they would want to transition. Obviously, she wasn't assigned male at birth, but assigned herself male as an adult, so it's not a perfect experiment. But it does show that at least some cis people really do have a strong gender identity which they can't let go of even if they want to -- they're just lucky enough that their identity and the way the world sees them match up.
    Pretty much every time I've seen this question discussed, I've seen some cis people show up to say that yes, they do feel a sense of internal gender identity, a sense of being their assigned gender that seems to go beyond just acknowledging one's assignment into a particular category. And in the same discussions, I've also reliably seen nominally-cis people show up to say nope, they don't understand at all what people mean when they talk about feeling like a particular gender, once you eliminate physical features and social roles*. Purely anecdotally, both groups seem pretty numerous; my guess is that there's a spectrum in "strength of internal gender identity", and "essentially undetectable" is not an uncommon result, but it's also not uncommon for it to be stronger.

    *I personally am in this latter category. I experience gender similarly to the way I experience nationality - if someone asks "how do you know you're a woman" my answer is similar to how I know I'm Australian, i.e. it's what my passport says (in both cases) + I had the experience of growing up and living in Australia (and consequently I have various general, albeit not universal, commonalities with other Australians), just as I had the experience of growing up and living as someone socially classified as a girl/woman (and consequently I have some general, albeit not universal, commonalities with other girls/women). But I don't feel like there is any part of me that is fundamentally, deep-down, intrinsically Australian, and nor do I have a sense of myself as a woman that feels internal and intrinsic to me. I don't really have any idea how that would feel - but there seems more than adequate evidence to conclude that many people do experience such a sense. And despite my lack of it, I identify myself as a woman, not as agender, for much the same reason that I identify as Australian - if the category of "woman" (or "Australian") didn't exist in our world then I don't think I would feel any pressing need to invent it, but since it does exist in our present society, living within it has shaped my life in all sorts of ways.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Going further on that, back in the day when I was first coming out to myself as being into girls, I thought that had to make me a man, or at least more masculine than my high femme self. So I tried for a while to not even actually transition but I guess be more gender neutral would be the best phrasing. It ended up making me profoundly anxious and gave me a horrible case of intrusive thoughts that was somewhat akin to my OCD episodes. Long story short what I did to myself back then was not good for my mental health and honestly not something I would recommend to most people.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Folks, my point was "questioning assumptions can often yield valuable insight", not "you are all agender". I have a good friend who I play board games with who's a cis dude. We've talked about this. He's cheerfully said that he's a dude, happy as a dude, but that when he was younger and first connected with somebody trans he thought about gender from his perspective. And he figured out that, for instance, he didn't give two cents about macho or anything, when it was fairly big in his family, he loved having fairly long hair. And he found out he really likes having facial hair. It's anecdotal, but I don't have the reach, funds, or training for a anthropology/sociology/gender studies study that would be properly rigorous about it. Doesn't matter if you're trans, cis, agender, nonbinary, looking at how you relate to gender and want to express your gender is good and healthy IMO. Even if that's the cis people who don't care! Neat, you can now more aggressively, confidently not care.
    LGBTA+itP

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Folks, my point was "questioning assumptions can often yield valuable insight", not "you are all agender".
    No one responded to you in any way like that, I don't know where you took that from. I think everyone's responded fairly openly and clearly. The answer has been "People you label as cis have done so".

  18. - Top - End - #738
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ifni View Post
    Pretty much every time I've seen this question discussed, I've seen some cis people show up to say that yes, they do feel a sense of internal gender identity, a sense of being their assigned gender that seems to go beyond just acknowledging one's assignment into a particular category. And in the same discussions, I've also reliably seen nominally-cis people show up to say nope, they don't understand at all what people mean when they talk about feeling like a particular gender, once you eliminate physical features and social roles*. Purely anecdotally, both groups seem pretty numerous; my guess is that there's a spectrum in "strength of internal gender identity", and "essentially undetectable" is not an uncommon result, but it's also not uncommon for it to be stronger.
    I mean, I think I'm kind of in a similar place - my own sense of gender identity is basically limited to being able to look down and identify the plumbing. Beyond the purely biological components, though, I don't know that have anything that I personally look at and say, "that's male," or "that's female," aside from what society has told me is so. I don't look at myself as particularly anything aside from the basics. And yet, I don't think I have an issue identifying as my sex. By extension, I'm pretty sure I don't have an issue identifying my gender based on my sex, but yeah, removing the biological tags from the situation, I'd go with "no other internal identity." Frankly, I can't say I see much need for it.

    Hence my curiosity, above. It's one of those "never bothered to question it" scenarios. I've never really thought about a gender identity, whatever it might be; I've always just been me.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Not all gender non-conforming people are trans.

    You can be gender non-conforming and cis. Gender sucks for everyone, it just sucks more for trans folk since it literally bring them emotional, mental and sometimes even physical pain.

    I have been gender non-conforming my whole life, never used girly clothes as a kid, enjoyed fighting and "Boy" toys.

    Played with boys and played tons of boy themed video games.

    I still have many gender non-conforming characteristics such as my main form of sexual gratification is (pegging) and a huge interest and desire to have a male genitalia.

    But that doesn't make me trans, because 1- I don't identify as trans. 2- I still feel and like to be a woman. 3- I'm still in touch with my femininity.

    I just like to (As many cis people do) to fantasize about having a different body configuration.

    Different people deal with gender in different ways. I know you guys have no frame of reference on how cis mind works but it's certainly not as simplistic as you may imagine.

    I do believe gender much like sexuality is a spectrum, some people may not be gender non-conforming to be trans but that doesn't make them 100% cis.

    We can have a middle ground, "The world isn’t split into good people and death eaters" same with sexuality and gender.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Chiming in on this, I'd not be surprised if a significant percentage of people who currently identify as cis would probably be some variety of not-cis if they went and challenged the assumption that they are [dude/chick], and I think that even for those who do still identify as [chick/dude] it'd be helpful to figure out what aspects of that gender they enjoy and which they just think are mandatory.
    Yes, I'm one of those "cis as default" people. I don't feel like a woman, most of the time. Sometimes I dress as a woman (dress, makeup) but that's more of a costume thing, a performance, and I have to be in the right mood. And sometimes I dress as a man (packing, binding), and again I need to be in the right mood and it's not quite me. I could probably identify as non-binary but it seems like more work than I'm willing, especially when I don't experience dysphoria and the default works fine for me.
    Without adding crossdressing into the equation, I think there are definitely many people who don't have a strong intrinsic sense of their gender and just go with what they were assigned. Other people (and it's not something I can fully comprehend) have that intrinsic sense about their gender that goes beyond what they were assigned. And I don't just mean liking stuff associated with your gender. Being a tomboy doesn't mean you don't also strongly identify as a woman, for instance.

  21. - Top - End - #741
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    Question to trans forumites:

    On the one hand, we all know that Rich has dropped the ball on trans inclusion in the comic. On the other hand, representation absolutely matters, and not including because you're worried you might do it wrong still amounts to some form of erasure. So if Rich were to ask you what you'd want him to do re: trans representation in the comics, what would you want? The status quo of not mentioning them because of the risk of doing them wrong? Going ahead and including trans-ness even if there's a risk he does do it wrong? Declaring some characters trans but not making a plot point of their transness because he's worried he might screw that up? Some other thing entirely?

    (This is more a general question of how you'd want inclusion handled by people who might not even know when they're about to step in something, but generic questions tend to get unhelpfully broad answers. Using "Rich" and "this comic" for hopefully some more specific thoughts.)

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread is dead. Long live the LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread?
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