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2018-03-16, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- Germany
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
If you take the time to read back a bit in this thread and the ones before this one (or use the search function), you'll find that I (and other nonbinary people) have written about what being genderfluid (for me) or nonbinary (in general) means for us.
Non-binary or genderqueer genders This is one of the first papers that comes up if you search for non binary gender on google scholar. There isn't that much research about it yet, but I can't believe you have actually looked if you haven't seen anything.
Here's another paper. Here's an article from a book. (A few pages are missing, but I don't think they are critical for understanding.) There are also a lot more papers that are not open source, but they do exist.
Also, this is a question for you: why do you need proof? Are you simply interested in this topic, just like you might be interested in, I dunno, developmental biology of fruit flies (that's a fascinating topic, btw)? Or are you looking for a reason why you should respect our self-identification (or a reason to not respect it without getting called rude)?
The number is not serious. Due to the flexible, personal nature of gender, it isn't possible to determine the exact number of genders that exist.Last edited by Lycunadari; 2018-03-17 at 03:24 AM. Reason: fixed a link
You can call me Juniper. Please use gender-neutral pronouns (ze/hir (preferred) or they/them) when referring to me.
"We all are vessels of our brokenness, we carry it inside us like water, careful not to spill. And what is wholeness if not brokenness encompassed in acceptance, the warmth of its power a shield against those who would hurt us?" - R. Lemberg, Geometries of Belonging
Stories Art
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2018-03-16, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
None of those answer my question. The first simply asserts that non-binary is a thing and that through self identification surveys people have identified themselves as nuetral or the other gender in the past. There is no cited studies on gender-fluidity that I could see.
The language link is broken on my end
The anthropology simply states that there are male and female sexes that are cis and there are male and female sexes that are not. They identify them as a third or fourth gender because they have preferences and or personality types outside the norm. None of this addresses my question of how gender is different from personality.
A mix of all three if I'm being completely honest. I believe in personal freedoms for all, right up until they infringe on the rights of another person. I can't go into more detail without breaking forum rules.
I'm a believer that there are certain aspects of peoples personalities that are determined by genetics, and there are general patterns of behavior. Stereotypes exist for a reason and can be useful tools for dealing with people you do not personally know. Obviously this changes when you get to know a person, because few people are a walking stereotype.
Finally, and I probably should have lead with this. Your perception of reality and mine do not match up, so I wish to learn more about your perceptions so that I can figure out were we are the same and use that to further both of our understanding.
Given my perception of (probably earned) hostility from that poster, I really wasn't expecting a joke. It went over my head. Sorry.You can call me Sivarias or Siv.
Message me some time, I'd love to hear your story, and if you want, I can even tell you mine.
Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
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2018-03-17, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- Germany
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Then I'm not sure what your question actually is? Scientists of different fields (medicine, psychology/psychiatry, anthropology) clearly acknowledge that nonbinary genders are a real existing thing and not just a preference. Genderfluidity is a subset of nonbinary-ness, and both the first paper and the second one (the link should work now) do mention it. AFAIK there aren't any studies on what exactly causes being nonbinary, but it's probably a similar cause like with binary trans people . But not knowing what causes me to be genderfluid doesn't change the fact that I am - just like not knowing why someone is gay doesn't change them being gay. (We don't know for sure what causes homosexuality- genetics or hormone concentrations in the womb are the most likely causes AFAIK. But most reasonable people don't call homosexuality just a preference just because we don't know why someone is gay.)
The difference between a man who likes feminine things and a nonbinary person is that the man is still a man and the nonbinary person is not. Nonbinaryness, and transness in general, are not about what you like*, but about who you are. I can be a man and still like to wear dresses. I can be a nonbinary person and still like to wear dresses. I can be a woman and still like to wear dresses. My gender doesn't change the things I like or who I am as a person. All that changes is my gender.
*Preferences can be an indicator for a person's gender - a lot of trans people first start questioning their gender when they notice that they like clothes and hobbies they are not supposed to like. But it's not an absolute.
Okay. Me (or anyone else) being nonbinary and asking others to respect that doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, and this seems so obvious that I'm sure why you brought that up.
Identities and personalities are so much more complicated than genetics. There's genetics, and epigenetics, and hormones, and experiences in early life, and experiences in later life, physical and mental illnesses, and traumata... there are so, so many things that can influence identity that limiting it to genetics, or thinking genetics are more important than other factors is very reductionist and wont get you anywhere. Also, there isn't really a strict line between identity, personality and behaviour. I'm a vegetarian (identity), so I don't eat meat (behaviour) because I think that it's the right thing to do (personality). I'm nonbinary (identity), and I like pretty clothes (personality) so I wear skirts and dresses (behaviour).
I'm not sure why you are talking about stereotypes?
Okay, I don't see where exactly our perceptions of reality don't match, so I don't know what I can say or to to help you understand my perspective? (If my post reads a bit "all over the place" that's why.)
Like I said, I've written about what being genderfluid means for me personally before, so maybe reading that would help you? Here, two posts where I talk about being genderfluid.
Well, it was probably less a joke and more sarcasm. I'm pretty sure Jor has argued with people about the validity of nonbinary genders before, so I understand a certain frustration at having to deal with the topic again and again.Last edited by Lycunadari; 2018-03-17 at 04:07 AM. Reason: added links
You can call me Juniper. Please use gender-neutral pronouns (ze/hir (preferred) or they/them) when referring to me.
"We all are vessels of our brokenness, we carry it inside us like water, careful not to spill. And what is wholeness if not brokenness encompassed in acceptance, the warmth of its power a shield against those who would hurt us?" - R. Lemberg, Geometries of Belonging
Stories Art
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2018-03-19, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- An airplane
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Errr.. yeah, sorry for my hostility too. I was running out of spoons from the other thread and knew what Jor meant from context (both of reading plenty of Jor's posts about this and having learnt about this stufdf prior)
Sorry I can't give you any links though. Hope you find what your after.
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2018-03-20, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
I guess I just can't wrap my head around it. I'll have to put pause to this for now. Thanks for your patience and trying to help. The reason I brought it up directly violates forum rules, and I like posting here, so I'll have to let it be. Find a new source of information I suppose.
Frankly, I can't really explain any better without coming across as an ******* at best, and a homophobe (if that's the right term) at worst. I have no intention of violating the sanctity of your space any more than I already have. I just don't understand the process and there is a shear logical disconnect for me that makes having this discussion frustrating for both of us. Me because I don't understand, and you because I'm just another bigot. (For the record, I bear none of you any ill will but I can't figure out how to non-offensively ask these questions.)
And I get that. Like I said, I'm more or less aware of how I'm coming across, and I don't know how to NOT if that makes sense. I was bound to step on toes. Frankly I'm delighted that the responses I got were as civil as they were.
Thanks for you guy's time. I'll try to leave you alone now.You can call me Sivarias or Siv.
Message me some time, I'd love to hear your story, and if you want, I can even tell you mine.
Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
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2018-03-20, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Does it really matter if you can't grok it? Seems to me like it should be enough to accept that other people experience the world differently and leave it at that. Might as well discuss what "red" looks like with a colorblind person.
Jude P.
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2018-03-20, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Location
- Bristol, UK
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2018-03-20, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
I am... somewhat confused, with regards to myself.
It's... bleh. Hard to even type it, certainly haven't said this in meatspace. I get the general idea of how being trans or enby or agender or whatever works, in that people say they don't feel (however they were assigned at birth). But I can't say that I actually know what it means, to "feel male/masculine". I don't know whether that's an indicator of feeling agender(ed?), or of just never having not felt that way. I've been pretty solid for several years that I'm asexual. Or, at least, close enough to it that saying that feels better than either of the more-specific words I've found. But that's a separate axis.
I know I don't fit a lot of masculine stereotypes (regarding athleticism, temper, etc). But then, I do fit others (techie). And I probably fit more Asperger's/high-functioning autistic stereotypes anyway, which muddles it a lot because the differing typical m/f patterns of social interaction are mostly out the window in favor of "stand there awkwardly on the periphery of social occasions, occasionally try to interject but nobody hears, eventually leave early".
I'm not comfortable having a mustache or beard, but I don't know whether that's an indicator of anything. I've been growing my hair out but not long enough for it to actually be particularly long yet (it's curly, and I don't yet have the length for it to actually hang). Though I do intend to grow it long enough to braid, I don't know whether my feelings will change when it gets there. I've been considering dressing androgynously, at least in concept, but I don't have a clue about fashion and haven't been able to ask anyone what that actually is (looking it up just shows me pictures visually indistinguishable from women-in-masculine-clothing, at least to my eye, which gets me nowhere as AMAB).
All in all, I am confused.Last edited by Qwertystop; 2018-03-20 at 05:18 PM.
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2018-03-20, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Its Complicated
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
-A wandering fashionista waves hi-
Androgynous is harder for AMAB folks because it's more socially acceptable for women to wear men's clothing styles than vice versa. AKA women can wear very masculine fashion and still be perceived as androgynous women while if men start wearing feminine fashion are very quickly perceived as socially unacceptable, strange or crossdressers. It's not impossible though, just harder.
Longer hair is a great start. I'd also suggest somewhat brighter or more saturated colors than traditionally shows up in men's clothing. Nothing extremely bright but not as dull as men's business clothes. Jewelry also helps, anything too sparkly will come off as more overtly feminine or very dramatic. Vests do wonders for disguising your base body shape and making it look more androgynous. Makeup will also help, once again bright colors will point you more towards the feminine than you probably want. Eyeliner and mascara will send you closer to the androgynous as will nude (approximately skin colored) eyeshadow. Plucking or otherwise trimming your eyebrows so they're less bushy will make you look less masculine.Last edited by Recherché; 2018-03-20 at 09:46 PM.
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2018-03-21, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- In the Playground, duh.
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
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2018-03-23, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2017
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
While I'm not asexual, and I don't like having long hair, pretty much everything else you said describes me pretty well. (Though I often end up growing a beard due to laziness, I don't like it when it gets too scruffy, and then I spend a while hating how it looks before I finally shave again.)
I'm not athletic, even-tempered to the point of it being kinda weird, techie, maybe on the asp/aut spectrum a bit (though not too much). I fit almost no masculine stereotypes, some feminine ones, and have the same introvert/wallflower behaviour you mention. I dress... not androgenous, as that would require effort, but... soft? Basic? Jeans and tee, never comfortable in suits, wish it was more acceptable for guys to wear skirts or something.
But none of that changes that I am a cis guy. Matching stereotypes doesn't define you so much as feeling correct in your body. You can be the most flamboyantly gay man in the world, who matches no masculine stereotypes, and wears skirts and blouses, and yet still be Cis, because your body matches your identity. Myself, when I look in the mirror, whether or not I like what I see at any given point in time, it still feels like me.
That said, I'm not here to say that you are definitely cis, or not cis. I'm just saying that none of what you've mentioned has to define that. Being cis or agender is all about internal identity, not external perceptions.
Me, I've come to like "cis-adjacent" as a term. You do you.Last edited by ve4grm; 2018-03-23 at 02:15 PM.
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2018-03-29, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Nevermind.
Last edited by Zen; 2018-03-30 at 09:57 AM.
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2018-03-30, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- An airplane
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
[Scrubbed By Request]
Should we have a commonly asked questions section the first post? If not to reduce repeated questions then to have resources on hand.Last edited by EternalMelon; 2018-03-31 at 12:43 AM.
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2018-03-30, 03:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Ok...so here is a thing that I haven't really found an answer to.
Catgirls and trans girls, where does that association come from?
Yes, it's a serious question...well sort of.
Personally, if I had to pick an animal to genesplice with I guess I'd pick something with some mean horns, cause Kossith/Qunari from Dragon Age and Tieflings are my favourite fantasy races. Although I imagine they must be super impractical in day-to-day life.
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2018-03-30, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- An airplane
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
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2018-04-01, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2017
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Recently someone I follow on Twitter expressed anger over a message addressed to them that contained the salutation Mr. I suddenly realized I didn’t know the proper salutation for someone with they/them pronouns. Some googling said it might be Mx, but I don’t want to assume.
Follow up question, would it be a good idea to include the salutation in the pronoun list to avoid confusion about this? Eg- Mx./they/them.
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2018-04-01, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- In the Playground, duh.
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2018-04-01, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- An igloo near you
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
My completely awesome avatar (I call her Quill) has been generously crafted by the esteemed Honest Tiefling!
GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
DEGENERATION 87: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good-looking) and your humility is stunning.
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2018-04-01, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
- Location
- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
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2018-04-01, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- An igloo near you
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
My completely awesome avatar (I call her Quill) has been generously crafted by the esteemed Honest Tiefling!
GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
DEGENERATION 87: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good-looking) and your humility is stunning.
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2018-04-04, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Usually with the same elided vague vowel sound that Ms has, I think, though I've also seen "Mixter" recommended as a pronunciation.
Quotebox
Avatar by Rain Dragon
Wish building characters for D&D 3.5 was simpler? Try HeroForge Anew! An Excel-based, highly automated character builder. v7.4 now out!
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2018-04-05, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
In writing, I tend to use 'e (short for she or he, as in "let's find out what 'e will say), and 'em (short for them, but I'm using it for her or him, but a bit problematic 'cause it sounds more like him or 'im, sorry 'bout that).
In speech though, it makes me sound a bit like I'm imitating **** Van **** in Mary Poppins.
I 'aven't called anyone "squire" or guvnah yet though.
But that would be AWESOME!
Or I just call people what they tell me they want to be called.
That also works.
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2018-04-05, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- An igloo near you
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
1. Talk with Van's accent all day. Call everyone "squire" and "guvnah."
2. When people inevitably ask what you're doing, pretend you don't know what they're talking about.
3. Go back to normal the next day. Continue pretending nothing unusual happened.
C'mon, you know you want to.My completely awesome avatar (I call her Quill) has been generously crafted by the esteemed Honest Tiefling!
GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
DEGENERATION 87: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good-looking) and your humility is stunning.
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2018-04-05, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
- Gender
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2018-04-05, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- An igloo near you
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
My completely awesome avatar (I call her Quill) has been generously crafted by the esteemed Honest Tiefling!
GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
DEGENERATION 87: Copy this into your sig and subtract 1 from the degeneration when you first see it. This is an antisocial experiment.
Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good-looking) and your humility is stunning.
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2018-04-06, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
- Gender
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2018-04-07, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
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2018-05-11, 11:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2017
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Ever since I saw the 5e Roundtable where Adam Koebel encouraged people to roleplay a gay person, I’ve been wondering what this could look like if I tried it. I have an idea for something I might try, but I wanted to check on it first.
A little bit of background. I played in some really toxic games in the 90s, such that I kind of got into the habit of not wanting sexuality to come up at all in the way I play my characters and have even thought of ways to distance my characters from being in those sorts of situations (like one time I played a druid who was into lizardfolk). The closest I’ve come to playing a character with any sort of romantic side is a current character who is a sort of emo kid who was recovering from an encounter with a changeling. And this is a character I took over from someone else who left the game, so that whole encounter was sort of a necessary backstory.
Anyways, I’ve thought of playing a eunech. Not only does it feel more like what I’m comfortable with, it is a gender nonconforming person that any transphobic people in my gaming circles might feel more comfortable with as well. So maybe a first step towards acceptance?
My concern with this is that maybe it’s too, I don’t know, maybe tragic? But I don’t know what to do about that, because all of my characters are tragic in some way.
I’m also wondering if greater restoration could be used to restore their gender, and what they would choose if given that choice (I honestly don’t know right now).
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2018-05-11, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Its Complicated
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Genitalia and gender are different. A eunuch could identify as a man, a woman, neither, both or something else entirely. Removing a man's physical bits does not make him any less of a man or gender non-conforming. Gender is in your head not between your legs.
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2018-05-11, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- An airplane
- Gender
Re: LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]
Not having genatalia does not make someone trans. Being trans isnt the same as being gay. I would suggest you look up what gender and sexuality are and researching some lived experiences of queer people before you try to role play any characters, as your knowledge on the subject seems to be lacking.
Last edited by EternalMelon; 2018-05-11 at 11:23 PM.