LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

[Sahe]

Didn't someone said soemthing about both male interior decorators and male ballerinas finding the occasional need to come out as straight?

Do you think that's a joke? Is their sexuality is funny to you?

No, I don't think that. I think your desperate attempts at fishing for specific answers and trying to catch us in contradictions by taking our comments out of context or by misinterpreting them are in fact, quite funny, if a bit pathetic.

[Florian]

Why doesn't society accept ppls coming out as gay, lesbian, bi, trans or whatevs after being straight? Because society is cruel to minorities. The majority loves to stomp smash them to prove their social dominance. Think of it like when a dog challenges another dog for leadership or whatevs: They wanna have leadership over society, they think being LGBTQAI+ is just a choice, so they bite your throats out to maintain their leadership and keep being straight as the default. They don't wanna have you on their territory, which is relationships.

Don´t mix things up.

Formal society, as a whole, mostly cares about perpetuating that society as it is. Notice how societies treat the role of the individual as part of said society differently, based on the big picture. (Institutions work the same way. Once established, they will want to perpetuate themselves)

Most of us are part of very flawed liberal societies with roots going back to the aristocratic world, further enhanced by how the neoliberal system works. Which means that our societies are unequal from the start, else the inland market would never work, with some countries still having a formalized/institutionalized way to enforce that inequality.

Thing rather is, that in a market driven and individuality-focus society, no-one cares who you are and whom you stick your member in to have fun, but the minority vs. majority thing is pretty much a thing when it comes to the inland market and how force is distributed there. Beyond that, it takes a very educated stance of how democracy actually works. You either understand the majority vote as the right and governing direction, or you understand the interplay between all votes and how the duty of the majority to preserve the balance with the minorities work.

So you're basically asking the wrong questions. In very liberal countries, where each person is basically responsible for themselves, your question should actually be mood and you should ask why there're still pps going against that. As mentioned, modern socialist countries struggle at keeping individual rights (Gender, Migration, etc.) and a functional society at an equal level, which is pretty much of a challenge when talking about nation states instead of supranational constructs.

Edit: I can tell a little bit about the difficulties of having an atomized and still having a representative democracy while still reaching an internal consensus.

[sneakykitten]

Don´t mix things up.

Formal society, as a whole, mostly cares about perpetuating that society as it is. Notice how societies treat the role of the individual as part of said society differently, based on the big picture. (Institutions work the same way. Once established, they will want to perpetuate themselves)

Most of us are part of very flawed liberal societies with roots going back to the aristocratic world, further enhanced by how the neoliberal system works. Which means that our societies are unequal from the start, else the inland market would never work, with some countries still having a formalized/institutionalized way to enforce that inequality.

Thing rather is, that in a market driven and individuality-focus society, no-one cares who you are and whom you stick your member in to have fun, but the minority vs. majority thing is pretty much a thing when it comes to the inland market and how force is distributed there. Beyond that, it takes a very educated stance of how democracy actually works. You either understand the majority vote as the right and governing direction, or you understand the interplay between all votes and how the duty of the majority to preserve the balance with the minorities work.

So you're basically asking the wrong questions. In very liberal countries, where each person is basically responsible for themselves, your question should actually be mood and you should ask why there're still pps going against that. As mentioned, modern socialist countries struggle at keeping individual rights (Gender, Migration, etc.) and a functional society at an equal level, which is pretty much of a challenge when talking about nation states instead of supranational constructs.

Didn't I kinda say that societies likes to perpetuate themselves as they are? Yes... individuals are treated differently depending on the focus of the society (individual vs. group well being).

Flawed liberal societies? Like what? It doesn't seem too liberal in some parts of the USA for example. I think each area develops its own societies, which you seem to agree with, given the example that some societies have institutions to enforce their rules while some focus on liberalism and self-identity.

I don't have a good understanding of democracy. I guess I shouldn't be allowed to vote or chat about politics, huh? And yes, there's a complex interplay between all social issues whether voted on or not and more ppls would benefit from seeing how issues interplay and affect each other.

What do you mean mood? Do you mean self-identity and how you feel about yourself? 'Cause I can Feel lots of girly feelings and no one is obligated to call me a girl.

[War_lord]

Flawed liberal societies? Like what? It doesn't seem to liberal in some parts of the USA for example. I think each area develops its own societies, which you seem to agree with, given the example that some societies have institutions to enforce their rules while some focus on liberalism and self-identity.

This is getting into the banned subject of politics, but "Liberalism" is an economic system, it doesn't mean what it means in US colloquial terminology. Social Liberalism and Economic Liberalism aren't the same thing.

[sneakykitten]

Oh right, sorry, no more politics for me. Thank you War_lord.

[2D8HP]

.....Do you guys catch my drift?...:

That wasn't in the context of someone "changing their mind".

It's like you're fishing for specific answers or something.

Not going to respond to the whiffle Metalicana is putting out....

No need to bother as the Mods banned obvious "Troll" Metalicana less than three hours after his initial post

Speaking as a cis and straight person, I can definitely...

Well speaking as another person who is cis, straight, et cetera I can definitely state that the Playgrounders who are "out" as LGBT+ largely seem less cranky and have far more composure than I, as your recent responses to "bait" have reminded me, and I commend you.

Oh right, I should ask a question:
I suppose the answer is "with a great deal of practice", but if not, how do you stay so "cool under fire"?

[JNAProductions]

Oh right, I should ask a question:
I suppose the answer is "with a great deal of practice", but if not, how do you stay so "cool under fire"?

On forums? Reread your post. Maybe read it out loud. And, if it seems salty or aggravated or something, wait a few minutes, reread it, and see if it still seems bad.

Forums are nice like that.

[War_lord]

I have a short fuse, but homophobic trolls don't set it off, because I know all the stuff they're going to say before they say it. Plus I know that getting angry is what they want me to do so they can whine about the ebul SJW's shouting them down, so I don't rise to the bait.

Plus I like to turn it on them, so like if they insist that gay is a choice, point out that that says way more about their own sexuality then anything else, since they're implying they could go gay if they wanted to.

But yeah, that stands for anyone trying to get a rise out of you, just keep reminding yourself that you flipping out is what they want.

[Sahe]

Oh right, I should ask a question:
I suppose the answer is "with a great deal of practice", but if not, how do you stay so "cool under fire"?

I'm not sure if I really stay that calm or always handle trolls and ignorance correctly. JNA mentioned that it's easier on forums and such, because you can reread what you wrote. Sometimes I just write really mean rants and then just delete and don't post anything at all (here less so, more when I see stupid stuff on youtube or some such). In those cases it just felt good putting my feelings "down on paper" so to speak and let them out. I guess it's the equivalent of screaming into a pillow.

Other times I do the not exactly smart thing of trying to bait the opposition. Either by trying to call them out, sarcastically doubling down on their ridiculous claims about a #gayagenda or whatever in an over the top way.

In meat space all that can be a lot more difficult. Though I haven't really encountered any bigotry or some such in real life (staying away from family gatherings helps I guess). In fact I actually feel somewhat unfairly treated fairly. This doesn't mean I want to be the target of bigotry and hate, hell by no means, but I hear from so many people that have had bad experiences, while I'm sitting here and the worst stuff I heard was from other older trans women: "You should watch your language more, women don't curse", "oh give it some time and hormones, you'll love dresses and high heels and makeup and long nails and such". Meanwhile a friend of mine returned to Germany and didn't move in with her parents because she was afraid they'd throw her out if she told them. It just doesn't feel fair that so many have to suffer so badly while I have mostly pretty good to amazing experiences with only slight bumps. I mean one of my friends forgot even what my deadname was, when I came out to my aunt she was "oh cool, I'm excited, come visit me soon and tell me everything!". I currently have to find a job and one company where I worked previously while I still wasn't even aware I was trans were excited I applied this season again.

Ok, I kind of went off track there, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm don't know how to handle bigotry and such to my face because I haven't really experienced it in meat space, so I don't actually know how I would respond to that in real life. Guess I'll find out this summer though when I actually start working. I'll be working as a cashier so I guess many opportunities to meet *******s.

[Eldest]

I'm not entirely sure what the difference between just dating people casually and being "polyamorous" is, given I always hear it in the context of either people who are single engaging in wish fulfillment dreams online Or horror stories where one person in a relationship badgered the other person into declaring the relationship "polyamorous" so that they could sleep around while ignoring their partner's obvious discomfort with the whole thing.

I'm sure that there's legitimate and loving relationships conducted within a polyamorous arrangement, it just seems like there's a lot of scope for bad situations.

There certainly is scope for bad situations, just like all relationships. But there are happy, loving affairs. I, personally, am dating four lovely ladies who are each dating other people, and have some sort of ambiguous, nonsexual thing with a guy friend of mine which we have yet to define. Just because you hear about the worst elements, doesn't mean the better ones exist.

In theory it is. And I'm sure some people actually do manage to make it work. But you should be advised that there's a dark side to watch out for. I'm pretty sure there's poly people around here who'd tell you exactly what I am telling you.

As I said, I'm poly. AMA.

Oh right, I should ask a question:
I suppose the answer is "with a great deal of practice", but if not, how do you stay so "cool under fire"?

I can't honestly claim to be the calmest person, but I'm better than I used to be, and a lot of it is straight up practice and taking a step back from the situation. Did they really mean to do something stupid/offensive, or is it ignorance or thoughtlessness?

[Sahe]

There certainly is scope for bad situations, just like all relationships. But there are happy, loving affairs. I, personally, am dating four lovely ladies who are each dating other people, and have some sort of ambiguous, nonsexual thing with a guy friend of mine which we have yet to define. Just because you hear about the worst elements, doesn't mean the better ones exist.

I can't really comment from personal experience regarding the poly thing, because well I'm not poly or at least I don't think I am. I don't have all that much relationship experience. A friend of mine is in a from what I can tell a very happy relationship with two ladies who are also in a relationship with one another.

[sneakykitten]

Here's a bi question: What kinds of selection criteria do you folks use to find a mutually fulfilling relationship with a girl or guy? Because most of mine have been very unfulfilling and full of me fulfilling their wishes and them expecting more and more fulfilling when I am not fulfilled and--Okay word overuse question stands.

[Eldest]

Here's a bi question: What kinds of selection criteria do you folks use to find a mutually fulfilling relationship with a girl or guy? Because most of mine have been very unfulfilling and full of me fulfilling their wishes and them expecting more and more fulfilling when I am not fulfilled and--Okay word overuse question stands.

Frankly? I've pretty much only dated friends, with one exception, and that one went amazingly well in part because we had a massive amount in common. Figure out who you get along with, and then look at them as a potential datemate material. Gender hasn't entered into it for me.

[AuthorGirl]

Here's a bi question: What kinds of selection criteria do you folks use to find a mutually fulfilling relationship with a girl or guy? Because most of mine have been very unfulfilling and full of me fulfilling their wishes and them expecting more and more fulfilling when I am not fulfilled and--Okay word overuse question stands.

I'll let you know when I figure it out

[sneakykitten]

Ha ha thanks everyone. Dating friends and ppls I generally get along with is good advice. So is waiting to figure things out.

[Kesnit]

But how could they build a family if they didn't like or felt attracted to the opposite sex? I know I wouldn’t be able to hook up with a guy even if I tried so how can gay people spend years pretending to be straight?

You don't need to be in a heterosexual relationship to have a family. Gay guys can find a surrogate; lesbians can find a sperm donor. Either type of couple can foster or adopt.

Ppls' sexual preferences can change so they might decide they 'don't want to be gay anymore.' Would it work? I am doubtful. Most attempts to convert gay ppls to straight ppls seem to be ineffective at best and psychologically and spiritually harmful at worst. In theory however I could see a gay person trying out dating women and maybe even liking some of it.

When I was growing up, I assumed I was straight. Sure, I knew gay people existed, but not in the little nowhere town where I lived. Dated a guy for about 3 years - even got engaged to him. I didn't enjoy sex, but figured we'd eventually learn how to get it right.

When I was 19, I realized I was attracted to women, but at the time, was engaged. (In hindsight, I am pretty sure he proposed as early as he did because he knew I was going to come out, and also knew I would not get engaged if I was exploring my sexuality.) I eventually dumped him (not because I was exploring my sexuality) and came out as a lesbian at age 20. For the next 10 years, I had no physical or emotional attraction to men. Guys are cool as friends, but I was 100% attracted to women.

When I was 30, I started transition, and a weird thing happened. I found myself physically (though not emotionally) attracted to men. (I remained physically and emotionally attracted to women.) I've read various theories on why this happened, though nothing I would want to call real proof. However, the fact is - I was now attracted to men, and could enjoy sex with men.

There certainly is scope for bad situations, just like all relationships. But there are happy, loving affairs. I, personally, am dating four lovely ladies who are each dating other people, and have some sort of ambiguous, nonsexual thing with a guy friend of mine which we have yet to define. Just because you hear about the worst elements, doesn't mean the better ones exist.

My wife and I know several people in the poly community, though we aren't poly ourselves. (A friend jokingly told us monogamy is our kink...) So I will agree with Eldest -there are sane poly people out there. Yes, there are also nutjobs, but there are nuts in any community.

[sneakykitten]

Wow was that a good post! A+. I was much the same way. Before transitioning I was not attracted to men. Then after I started I was physically attracted to men. I'd still wanna be emotionally and physically attracted to a girl though. I am happy you met your wife. :)

[Delta]

Here's a bi question: What kinds of selection criteria do you folks use to find a mutually fulfilling relationship with a girl or guy? Because most of mine have been very unfulfilling and full of me fulfilling their wishes and them expecting more and more fulfilling when I am not fulfilled and--Okay word overuse question stands.

I've only ever been in one serious long-term relationship so my sample size is kind of small, but I think in the end it's rather simple: Find someone who shares your interests (not necessarily all of them, but at least the major ones) because I think "spending time together doing things you both enjoy" is kind of the basis for any good relationship, and who can stand your faults while you can stand his or hers. Because in my experience, everyone is burdened with issues, that's just being human, it's not about finding that mysterious perfect unicorn that doesn't or is perfect in every regard (or "the one" as people in stories have liked to chase forever) but find someone where when you find someone else going "Damn, if I were together with him/her, <thing> would drive me totally crazy!" you realize "Oh, right, <thing>. Huh, I really don't mind that at all.", it sounds strange but in my experience, that's a good sign it's working well.

[sneakykitten]

That's a really interesting way to put it Delta. I know all my life I've had little girls' fantasies of 'the perfect partner.' It's something I've had to put away over the years. No one is perfect. You can just learn to love someone despite their faults. And because of their good qualities ah ha. My favorite part of relationships is snuggling must negotiate that w/future partners.

[Florian]

Here's a bi question: What kinds of selection criteria do you folks use to find a mutually fulfilling relationship with a girl or guy? Because most of mine have been very unfulfilling and full of me fulfilling their wishes and them expecting more and more fulfilling when I am not fulfilled and--Okay word overuse question stands.

I don't really think that has much to do with sexual orientation or gender. I know myself well enough to be honest about my flaws, know what actually fulfills me in the long run, which failures or wrong compromises I'm prone to make and also where I've gotta compromise, because it´s necessary for a healthy relationship.

So, my main selection criteria is that I have the feeling that the other person and me are emotionally and intellectually on the same level, that we have huge overlap in shared interests, but also have a number of discrete, non-shared interests or hobbies so there's still an active life besides and beyond the relationship. The other big parts is that there must be some sort of equal give and take, or investment, in the relationship, at least relative to the ability to give or share.

[Delta]

My favorite part of relationships is snuggling must negotiate that w/future partners.

If snuggling is a big part for you then by all means try to find someone who a) likes watching movies/series and b) shares your taste in both of those. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who minded snuggling up while watching their favorite series and stuff, so win-wins all around.

[Florian]

If snuggling is a big part for you then by all means try to find someone who a) likes watching movies/series and b) shares your taste in both of those. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who minded snuggling up while watching their favorite series and stuff, so win-wins all around.

I actually see this as a very negative sign. People I've met that exhibit a marked tendency towards things like snuggling mostly turned out to be very emotionally needy and overly dependent on their respective partner to "fill a hole" in either/or their life or mental set-up.

[137beth]

I actually see this as a very negative sign. People I've met that exhibit a marked tendency towards things like snuggling mostly turned out to be very emotionally needy and overly dependent on their respective partner to "fill a hole" in either/or their life or mental set-up.

That's...a very weird bias. Like, I'm not even sure how you could think there could be a connection between "snuggling" and being "overly dependent." At least not without a lot of rigorous data to back it up.

[Delta]

Yeah I can't agree with that at all, there's nothing odd whatsoever about wanting physical closeness, that's a really basic human need.

[War_lord]

If anything I'm more weirded out my the idea that someone could consider stuff like snuggling in a relationship bad, what, do they want a 1950's refrigerator marriage?

[ve4grm]

If anything I'm more weirded out my the idea that someone could consider stuff like snuggling in a relationship bad, what, do they want a 1950's refrigerator marriage?

I mean, there's a point where it can be a sign of excessive neediness and psychological issues, but to call it that as a blanket statement? Weird.

[sneakykitten]

Florian while your post was very informative about your selection criteria I just can't agree that I am more emotionally needy for wanna cuddling. Why even?

[Honest Tiefling]

If snuggling is a big part for you then by all means try to find someone who a) likes watching movies/series and b) shares your taste in both of those. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who minded snuggling up while watching their favorite series and stuff, so win-wins all around.

Not sharing a taste for movies might also work, if you don't mind the other person snuggling while NOT paying attention to the movie. Some don't mind, even if the other person is on a phone/tablet/whatever as long as there are snuggles, depending.

If anything I'm more weirded out my the idea that someone could consider stuff like snuggling in a relationship bad, what, do they want a 1950's refrigerator marriage?

I've met guys who were not into snuggles. People show affection differently, and for some, physical actions like that just aren't what they want. Certain other factors like weather or health issues can be a problem as well.

Also, a height difference can lead to HILARIOUS issues with snuggling.

[Heliomance]

Trans narratives. What are yours?

I realised a few weeks ago that the standard "I was always a girl" datatype doesn't fit me at all. See, ever since I've been old enough to have a preference, I've been gynosexual. Guys just don't do it for me. Now, that makes me a big ol' lesbian. But when I had my first girlfriend, at 17, it didn't. That was a straight relationship. To try to claim otherwise feels hugely disingenuous. It didn't give me any experience of or insight into what it was like to be gay, because I wasn't. In fact, my current relationship is pretty much the only relationship I've ever had that can honestly and unambiguously be called a gay relationship. (okay, that's not quite true - I very briefly had a girlfriend last year, but the point remains)

So as a teenager, I was straight, and now I'm gay. But the target of my sexuality hasn't changed. So the only way that works, logically, is to say I used to be male, and now I'm female.

Trans folk of the playground, what are your identity narratives? I'm interested in how much variance from the "standard" there is.

[Eldest]

I mean, my personal identity for who I find attractive has just sorta... wandered all over the damn place. Figured out I wasn't straight in high school, figured out I wasn't a dude in college, but even when I thought I was a guy... I can't really call my relationships with women "straight"? It just doesn't feel right to me for those relationships, compared to what guy friends of mine described their relationships as. Even then, it was closeted queer stuff. Hopefully that makes sense?