LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

[Eldest]

I have a question.

A symbol for males is a circle with a little arrow pointing upward and to the right, and a symbol for female is a circle with a little plus sign underneath it. What does a symbol denote if it has a circle with botht he arrow pointing upward and to the right and the plus sign underneath? Does that mean intersex, or non-binary or something else?

It is variably trans or intersex in my experience.

[Heliomance]

I have a question.

A symbol for males is a circle with a little arrow pointing upward and to the right, and a symbol for female is a circle with a little plus sign underneath it. What does a symbol denote if it has a circle with botht he arrow pointing upward and to the right and the plus sign underneath? Does that mean intersex, or non-binary or something else?

It varies, generally some flavour of gender non-comforming. This site has it labelled as "intersex" on your profile, which has attracted a not inconsiderable amount of criticism (which got roundly ignored). In general, assume that anyone that has it set as their gender symbol is probably intending to convey "other".

[UnintensifiedFa]

Straight kid, but I have a few gay friends.

So one of my gay friends, is talking with a teacher, who has recently found out he’s gay. And I swear this is true, the teacher holds out a finger and a hole made by his pointer and thumb finger and says. P****, v*****. Some of the class laughs and my friend is humiliated.

My socially awkward butt is to shy to do anything, but I have a question should I have? And what can I do about it if not?

[Recherché]

Something needs to be done to stop the supposedly responsible adult from bullying the kid. However direct confrontation with someone who has more power than you is not always a good idea. Is the principle or anyone else higher up in the chain or command sympathetic seeming? It might be possible to tell them and let them know that this teacher's actions are both bullying a queer kid and making you feel uncomfortable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have a question should I have? And what can I do about it if not?

You should be supportive of your friend. In addition, depending on local laws, regulations and customs, you might be able to record the incident on your phone, and show it to people in positions of power that you expect will be receptive. Be aware that this might be against the law, or that there might not be anyone you can show it to with both the authority and will to do something about it (this includes everything from headmasters and parents to the local news station). Posting it to youtube has a small chance of working, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

But I agree with Recherché: don't confront an a-hole like that directly. It is unlikely to accomplish anything positive, and it has a non-insignificant chance of making things worse.

Grey Wolf

[Silent Hunter]

Something needs to be done to stop the supposedly responsible adult from bullying the kid. However direct confrontation with someone who has more power than you is not always a good idea. Is the principle or anyone else higher up in the chain or command sympathetic seeming? It might be possible to tell them and let them know that this teacher's actions are both bullying a queer kid and making you feel uncomfortable.

In the UK, you don't have to be the target of any discriminatory behaviour to be offended by it and so can report it.

[zlefin]

Straight kid, but I have a few gay friends.

So one of my gay friends, is talking with a teacher, who has recently found out he’s gay. And I swear this is true, the teacher holds out a finger and a hole made by his pointer and thumb finger and says. P****, v*****. Some of the class laughs and my friend is humiliated.

My socially awkward butt is to shy to do anything, but I have a question should I have? And what can I do about it if not?

I concur with the others; inform a relevant authority who's higher up than the teacher, like the principal. An alternative is to inform one of the guidance counselors (i'm assuming you have those, most places do), and request that the guidance counselor see that something is done about it. guidance counselor can help provide more anonymity for you if you're worried about backlash (and you tell them you'd prefer to remain anonymous).

[Liquor Box]

It varies, generally some flavour of gender non-comforming. This site has it labelled as "intersex" on your profile, which has attracted a not inconsiderable amount of criticism (which got roundly ignored). In general, assume that anyone that has it set as their gender symbol is probably intending to convey "other".

Thanks, a person had it tattooed on themselves. It sounds like it is not particularly specific at meaning anything more than 'other', as you say.

[Algeh]

If you're not sure about reporting it to the principal, you can also try talking to a different teacher about it if there's one you're pretty sure is a good ally. (If your school has some kind of LGBT club, whoever advises it would be a logical choice, at some schools teachers will put up "safe zone" signs, otherwise it's basically one of those things where you try to figure out from context and remarks.) Other teachers will probably have a reasonably good idea of your local school politics and may know how to better escalate this up the chain.

In an ideal world, absolutely any school adult would be a good person to report this to, but given that you've already got ample evidence, in the form of a school adult doing this in the first place, that this is not an ideal world, picking which staff member to report this to carefully is a reasonable precaution.

[JusticeZero]

Terminology/slang search for the LG types:
Trying to find a term for "someone you are attracted to who doesn't fit your normal gender preferences", eg. "I'm only attracted to men. And Sarah, for some reason."

[Lissou]

Terminology/slang search for the LG types:
Trying to find a term for "someone you are attracted to who doesn't fit your normal gender preferences", eg. "I'm only attracted to men. And Sarah, for some reason."

Your sexception?

[Iruka]

Your sexception?

Incredibly snappy, I like it!

[ArlEammon]

I concur with the others; inform a relevant authority who's higher up than the teacher, like the principal. An alternative is to inform one of the guidance counselors (i'm assuming you have those, most places do), and request that the guidance counselor see that something is done about it. guidance counselor can help provide more anonymity for you if you're worried about backlash (and you tell them you'd prefer to remain anonymous).

Your teacher, even if he or she wasn't being cruel, was being immature. She/or he sounds like a know it all, who actually knows nothing.

[Bartmanhomer]

Have anybody ever read the Book of The Underrealms series by Garrett Robinson? It featured so many LGBT characters in the series.

[Purple Eagle]

Hi, I posted here once as Flaming Eagle (now Cyber Punk, which will get merged with this account soon because I lost my password). When I last came here, I expressed my bicuriousness but lamented that I had no chance to explore.

I still have no chance to explore, but experiences I've had since then, especially with a rather twink-y guy I fell hard for, made me realize that yes I am bisexual, feminine preference.

Recently that fact sunk in, and as scary/exciting as it was, I've accepted it.

Now if I only had the chance to explore (where I'm from I'll become a pariah if word gets out).

[ArlEammon]

Hi, I posted here once as Flaming Eagle (now Cyber Punk, which will get merged with this account soon because I lost my password). When I last came here, I expressed my bicuriousness but lamented that I had no chance to explore.

I still have no chance to explore, but experiences I've had since then, especially with a rather twink-y guy I fell hard for, made me realize that yes I am bisexual, feminine preference.

Recently that fact sunk in, and as scary/exciting as it was, I've accepted it.

Now if I only had the chance to explore (where I'm from I'll become a pariah if word gets out).

I have no chance to explore either. I know that it's hard.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Hi, I posted here once as Flaming Eagle (now Cyber Punk, which will get merged with this account soon because I lost my password). When I last came here, I expressed my bicuriousness but lamented that I had no chance to explore.

I still have no chance to explore, but experiences I've had since then, especially with a rather twink-y guy I fell hard for, made me realize that yes I am bisexual, feminine preference.

Recently that fact sunk in, and as scary/exciting as it was, I've accepted it.

Now if I only had the chance to explore (where I'm from I'll become a pariah if word gets out).

Spoiler: things of sexual nature that may not be legal in your country

Show

I'm not sure if it's legal where you live, but if it is... Well, have you ever considered escorting? I really like certain sexual acts that most straight guys are not really intro and the ones that are don't look the way I like so I decided to just pay for it.

The guys I'm able to have sex with (Or just kiss and hang out) by paying are way prettier and hotter than any guys I'm able to find in a hookup app anyway, and way more polite. Sure the connection is not really the same but it's a safe way to explore and experiment without having to go through the hassle of dating or hookups.

You just call the handsome model like guy, book a place and pay for it. And you are able to anything you want wihtout fear of having to do soemthing he wants that you are not intro in return since you are already paying for it with money. Besides no risk of beign outed.

Be sure to be respectful and not rude with your escort, they are people doing a job and not objects.

Hey guys I would like to ask a question that may be kind of ignorant and I'm sorry.

But why nonbinary people care so much about names and gender documents? Isn't the whole point of beign nonbinary that you don't care? That you are above gender?

I have a friend who is nonbinary and they say they are not woman nor man and don't care about gendered things, they wear make up and pants and other days skirts and no make up. But they dislike their name becuase it's "male" but isn't the point of being nonbinary that you don't care about and have aspects of both genders?

[Themrys]

Isn't the whole point of beign nonbinary that you don't care? That you are above gender?

No, the complete opposite, actually. I don't understand why, either, but each and every nonbinary person I have ever met placed an extreme importance on their gender identity and the pronouns other people used for them, even in their absence.

Confusingly, people who really don't much care what pronouns people use for them often self-describe as gender critical.

I know, one would expect it to be the other way round, but obviously, it's not.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hey guys I would like to ask a question that may be kind of ignorant and I'm sorry.

But why nonbinary people care so much about names and gender documents? Isn't the whole point of beign nonbinary that you don't care? That you are above gender?

I have a friend who is nonbinary and they say they are not woman nor man and don't care about gendered things, they wear make up and pants and other days skirts and no make up. But they dislike their name becuase it's "male" but isn't the point of being nonbinary that you don't care about and have aspects of both genders?

As I understand it, non-binary includes both agendered and genderfluid individuals (which I'd imagine includes a significant chunk of individuals who don't care about gender as you are describing) and also other non-binary individuals, including agendered and genderfluid, who really do care that their gender doesn't match the one they were assigned (or indeed, feel they should't have been assigned one in the first place), and want to have legal enforcement of that difference so that others don't keep misgendering them (or telling them that "they have to pick" or the like). As well as others who are neither of the above. It's a broad description (wikipedia calls it a "catch-all category") for everyone that doesn't fit nicely into the man/woman labeling, so you get a lot of variation of opinion, position, etc.

So, in short, "some do, some don't, for reasons of their own".

Grey Wolf

[The_Snark]

But why nonbinary people care so much about names and gender documents? Isn't the whole point of beign nonbinary that you don't care? That you are above gender?

I have a friend who is nonbinary and they say they are not woman nor man and don't care about gendered things, they wear make up and pants and other days skirts and no make up. But they dislike their name becuase it's "male" but isn't the point of being nonbinary that you don't care about and have aspects of both genders?

Not necessarily. Nonbinary is sort of an umbrella term; it's not a single gender identity so much as a collection of gender identities that don't fit into conventional categories. What you describe might be accurate for some nonbinary people, but definitely not all; for others it's just the state of their gender, and they care about it being recognized in the same way that you might.

[ve4grm]

Hey guys I would like to ask a question that may be kind of ignorant and I'm sorry.

But why nonbinary people care so much about names and gender documents? Isn't the whole point of beign nonbinary that you don't care? That you are above gender?

I have a friend who is nonbinary and they say they are not woman nor man and don't care about gendered things, they wear make up and pants and other days skirts and no make up. But they dislike their name becuase it's "male" but isn't the point of being nonbinary that you don't care about and have aspects of both genders?

As others have said, some don't care, and some do. As for why those ones care... well, think of it this way.

Nonbinary doesn't mean you don't care about the binary. It's sometimes a specific rejection of both options. While some feel they belong in all the categories (I think Genderqueer is one of the preferred terms there?), others feel they belong in none of them.

Let's say you're filling out a survey, and it asks if you're a Football Fan, or a Baseball Fan. Those are the only two options they offer on the survey. You don't care for sports at all, and as such don't want to pick one, but "none of the above" is not an option. You might feel penned in, because neither option works, neither is correct, and you're being forced to pick one.

Now take that feeling, and apply it to every aspect of your life, from your clothes to your name. Multiply it appropriately. You might understand why (some) nonbinary people really care about this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As others have said, some don't care, and some do. As for why those ones care... well, think of it this way.

Nonbinary doesn't mean you don't care about the binary. It's sometimes a specific rejection of both options. While some feel they belong in all the categories (I think Genderqueer is one of the preferred terms there?), others feel they belong in none of them.

Let's say you're filling out a survey, and it asks if you're a Football Fan, or a Baseball Fan. Those are the only two options they offer on the survey. You don't care for sports at all, and as such don't want to pick one, but "none of the above" is not an option. You might feel penned in, because neither option works, neither is correct, and you're being forced to pick one.

Now take that feeling, and apply it to every aspect of your life, from your clothes to your name. Multiply it appropriately. You might understand why (some) nonbinary people really care about this.

This. My usual go-to example is hair colour. Imagine you live in a world in which can't rent a flat unless you fill out a contract (so far not unrealistic), and the contract requires you to state your hair colour (I hear in the US, eye colour is listed in the driver's license, which is a similarly weird thing to require, IMnpHO). Lying on the contract means you can be tossed out at any time, lose the deposit, etc. And imagine, further, that you have no hair and thus don't have a hair colour. What do you do? Lie? And risk massive penalties? Chose one at random, and potentially face a lawsuit? Not rent a flat?

This is a scenario that non-binary people face a lot in their everyday lives, for everything from rental agreements to opening bank accounts. In big and small ways, their lives are made harder because some bureaucracy didn't consider that sometimes people don't have a gender. And that's before we even get into bureaucracies that do consider it and politicians go out of their way to make the situation worse on purpose, because it'll get them a handful more votes.

Grey Wolf

[Themrys]

This. My usual go-to example is hair colour. Imagine you live in a world in which can't rent a flat unless you fill out a contract (so far not unrealistic), and the contract requires you to state your hair colour (I hear in the US, eye colour is listed in the driver's license, which is a similarly weird thing to require, IMnpHO). Lying on the contract means you can be tossed out at any time, lose the deposit, etc. And imagine, further, that you have no hair and thus don't have a hair colour. What do you do? Lie? And risk massive penalties? Chose one at random, and potentially face a lawsuit? Not rent a flat?

This is a scenario that non-binary people face a lot in their everyday lives, for everything from rental agreements to opening bank accounts. In big and small ways, their lives are made harder because some bureaucracy didn't consider that sometimes people don't have a gender. And that's before we even get into bureaucracies that do consider it and politicians go out of their way to make the situation worse on purpose, because it'll get them a handful more votes.

Grey Wolf

The football - baseball example fits better. People do not inherently have a preference for football or baseball. Those sports are social constructs, and some people think they're both a bit silly, or like both. That's what gender identity is. (Except not quite, but that would get too much into real world politics)


The hair colour metaphor would work for biologial sex. There are some few people who have intersex conditions. This possibility is not considered in official documents, just as official documents tend to ignore that there might be someone who doesn't have any hair and never used to have hair and doesn't even have eyebrows. Because it is very rare for someone to not now what colour their hair would be if they hadn't shaved it off. Like, extremely rare.




People here claim that some nonbinary identified people don't care about pronouns and names and titles. But have any of you actually met such a person?

I never have. And I think it very unlikely that a person who doesn't care about those things would even tell you that they don't have a gender identity, unless you explicitly ask them.


I find baseball and football equally boring, but I certainly don't walk around telling people that. It's not interesting enough to talk about. Even my best friends could only assume that I probably find those two sports equally boring, as I have never shown an interest in either, and if someone tried to force me to watch one of them on TV, I would not tell them that I also find the other boring when refusing.

[ve4grm]

People here claim that some nonbinary identified people don't care about pronouns and names and titles. But have any of you actually met such a person?

Not in person, but an NB member of a podcast I listen to has "he/they/she" on their twitter profile, and no distinct preference. So these people are definitely around, even if they may be less common than those who do care.

But yes, because they don't have a strong preference, it's unlikely to ever come up in conversation. They also still go by their feminine birth name. They only chose to discuss it because they wanted to list pronouns on their twitter, and because the podcast started out described as an "all-lady D&D group", and they wanted to clarify that this wasn't quite true anymore.

[Astrella]

No, the complete opposite, actually. I don't understand why, either, but each and every nonbinary person I have ever met placed an extreme importance on their gender identity and the pronouns other people used for them, even in their absence.

Confusingly, people who really don't much care what pronouns people use for them often self-describe as gender critical.

I know, one would expect it to be the other way round, but obviously, it's not.

Nah, gender critical is pretty much solely an identifier used by transphobes. ;)

=====

You don't have to understand though, and trans people's experience of gender is as diverse as that of cis people, there's trans people that attach a lot of importance to labels and ones that attach less. One of my non-binary friends doesn't give a butt about pronouns. But legal recognition has societal power and comes with material consequences. (Just think about gay marriage debates... )

I'd like to point out though that it's way easier to not care about something when you already are represented. Same with how non-minorities often like to taut that they don't care about representation and just want the best actor or whatever.

[The_Snark]

People here claim that some nonbinary identified people don't care about pronouns and names and titles. But have any of you actually met such a person?

Yes, actually.

[Bartmanhomer]

I have a question? What's non-binary?

[Recherché]

People who's gender isn't exactly "man" or "woman." Some nonbinary people have no gender, some switch genders regularly, some are partially one gender partially another, some have even more complex situations going on.

[Bartmanhomer]

People who's gender isn't exactly "man" or "woman." Some nonbinary people have no gender, some switch genders regularly, some are partially one gender partially another, some have even more complex situations going on.

So you mean genderless or asexual?

[Mystic Muse]

So you mean genderless or asexual?

Genderless would be one category within nonbinary, yes.

Asexuality has nothing to do with what gender you identify as. I'll let somebody else explain that before I try, potentially get it wrong, and put my foot in my mouth.